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I totally agree with you on that point. However, It's not likely that Infiniti, a brand who has been around 15 years, is going to have the same market presence as brand that has been in the marketplace for as long as BMW. Especially considering their terrible missteps for the first 10 years.
I agree with that statement. But I think RWD (alone) would exclude a car from the LPS ranks, too. But that is my opinion.
The great thing, however, is that these cars all offer at least a version with AWD, which is, FOR ME, one of the characteristics for qualification as a member of the LPS crowd.
But, before you say "yea but, or you're outta your pea pickin' mind," remember it is like the FWD statement, just an opinion.
Time was when the best of the best were thought to be FWD -- and I'm talkin' DECADES ago.
FWD was no more than a novelty configuration - reserved for such memorable motorcars as the Citroen, the 3-cylinder SAAB (spelled with all caps in those days, IIRC) & the unforgettable Oldsmobile Toronado - until the gas cruch of the 70s forced manufacturers to look for ways to make cars smaller & lighter without sacrificing passenger & luggage space. FWD was, at the time, the obvious solution. Mounting the engine sideways made it possible to reduce the size of the engine compartment & thus the overall length of the car, thereby making the entire package lighter & more fuel-efficient. Without a driveshaft running from the engine to the rear axle, designers could lower the passenger compartment floor & increase legroom. Similarly, eliminating the bulky transmission freed up trunk space.
In short, you can draw a straight line from the OPEC oil boycott of 1973-74 to the prevalence of FWD today. I would argue that given a world of cheap & abundant fuel, FWD would not even exist. Of course, we don't live in such a world, & that's why FWD makes perfect sense for mass-market family sedans. But it has never been the platform of choice for premium-priced sedans.
Full disclosure: most of the cars that I've owned over the past 30+ years have been FWD. Moreover, my wife refuses to give up her '99 ES 300. Not long ago, I suggested in my characteristically heavy-handed way that she might want to swap it for an M35x (a car that I find particularly attractive) or an AWD GS 300. She would have none of that. But that doesn't undercut my point: once you've moved north of the entry-level luxury market segment, FWD has no place.
And that's why I don't understand why anyone would nominate the Avalon or the Passat for membership in this club.
Too true. And the very best way to be loyal to your country is to avoid subsidizing its manufacturers that promote mediocrity. We call this "culling the herd", and it's part of something known as the process of natural selection, wherein only the fittest survive.
300C, for what it is, I can see. CTS, after it's major overhaul next year may well (finally) really be there. The others are dedicated also-rans...
Failing that, there was a GM product several decades ago with a chain driven front-wheel-drive system (Pontiac, Olds, Cadillac -- I can't remember) that was the first for quite awhile.
Refresh our memories (for fossils like myself), or just tell us.
The "buy American" argument just doesnt wash anymore. It hasnt for years. First of all, you can eliminate all Chrysler products. A good portion of the 300's mechanicals are sourced from Mercedes Benz, and the money, ultimately, goes to Germany.
While *some* GM products are built here in the states, if you think all of the parts that go into these cars are from US suppliers, your dreaming.
Speaking of Ford, the Ford Fusion is built in Mexico. So, according to your own argument, if you buy a Fusion, you're supporting the Mexican economy, not ours. Its "import" competitors, the Camry, Accord, Altima, and even the Hyundai Sonata, are all built right here in the USA. While detroit is closing US plants like there's no tomorrow, Japan and Korea continue to open new ones HERE in the US, and bring new jobs with them, helping OUR economy.
As I've said before, Bill Ford, Rick Wagoner, and Tom LaSorda have never done anything for me, so I "owe" them nothing. They have more than enough money already. If they make products I want to buy, I will. Otherwise, I'll continue to buy imports. The US is a free country, and we are free to choose what we want to buy.
A few years ago, when the Lincoln LS (a fine car that's been clumsily marketed & will some day, I'm convinced, be a collector's item) could be had with a 5-speed stick, I tried to find one here on Long Island (about 30 miles east of NYC) that I could test drive.
I visited every Lincoln-Mercury store in eastern Nassau & western & central Suffolk counties. Some of the sales reps with whom I spoke didn't even know that a stick was an option on the LS Sport model. One who did suggested that I drive 200 miles to an upstate dealership that might have what I was looking for on the lot, take my test drive there, & then come back home & buy the car from him.
I wound up buying a BMW. Given my requirements, it was the most sensible thing to do.
What would you have done, danio?
Matter of fact, I don't think there is such a thing as a domestic v. an import any more, strictly speaking.
I couldn't agree more! I believe everyone has a nationalist duty to buy only domestic cars!
My problem is finding a reliable Bricklin? :confuse:
In case nobody heard of the famous Canadian car called a Bricklin here is a link:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/bv/bricklin.htm
Since these cars often are at the pinnacle in their classes, the "labor" element of the equation is not the problem. Could be that building rental cars just ain't gettin' it done. Save for a few (Corvette comes to mind), there is a valid reason why the Domestics are having it tough. When it takes give-away programs like the "Employee Pricing" gimmick used recently to move record numbers of cars, maybe you need to re-evaluate your brands.
BTW, many of the Domestics are built in Canada, Mexico, etc. The market is speaking loudly to the Big 3 that PRODUCT REALLY DOES MATTER!! It is the only reason that Cadillac, for example, is finally building competitive cars.
The "thought" I was speaking of was of a time, before almost universal RWD when the few FWD cars were the LPS cars of the day.
Note that I do and did agree that I was NOT suggesting that I thought FWD (or RWD for that matter) was sufficient for inclusion into the LPS graduating class for 2005.
Many folks do think that RWD is always superior -- and I do understand that point of view. Yet, today, it seems like "the crowd" all offers AWD in a growing number of their models; and, for me at least, AWD is a requirement to be included in the LPS hall of fame these days.
Now, to the point about buying an American car -- well I really wanted to be able to do this, initially. But I came to the conclusion that buying an American car because it was American would yield the opposite outcome of what I wanted.
The STS, for example, isn't bad -- but it is, IMHO, completely overshadowed by its foreign competition. Competition is good for our companies. Now, if it could be demonstrated that the STS could best the Germans or the Japanese, and/or be a better value, I would say vote for the STS.
Unfortunately, I can't see supporting an inferior product for the sake of nationalism or patriotism or whatever ism that would suggest.
To me, the Cadillac STS AWD is a fine effort that is priced unrealistically. The STS is somewhat like the Phaeton.
Of course the Phaeton for $599/mo on a super subvented lease did make some sense -- the STS for $63,000+ w/AWD seems to have made the jump to ludicrous speed.
I don't think any interested party mistook the transaction for anything other than a hijacking, if you want my admittedly emotional response.
It's just I don't buy the argument that all the profits go back to the corporate homeland. The model doesn't work that way; too simple.
You are correct, though, I think increasingly one must offer it in the line up to be a for-real player. I think there are exceptions (7-series?), but it is a trend, as was FWD before it.
There is no point IMO to buy a 5-Series without the sports package so those who aren't interested in what they'd call a "hard" ride buy something like an A6, E-Class or Lexus GS. Ditto for the Infiniti M.
Why the E's sales are such a big mystery to most here is beyond me. How many people buying a 40-60K car are going to push them that hard, yeah I know a few 5/M guys here will, but they are a small minority. I think overall that most people who buy these cars are split between performance and ride/luxury and BMW and Mercedes cater to those two groups the best, imo. The two archrivals M and GS are building a rep for themselves slowly, but they don't offer the choice of models MB/BMW does hence their lower sales.
M
I just hate the most of America gets their mags before me! What did they say overall about the Passat?
M
Not sure where it was designed but I would guess Japan. The car is manufactured in Kentucky.
The M looked like a pimp-mobile.
Totally tasteless IMHO.
As is your comment.
Us pimps need a stylish car. Since you've identified the purpose of the car please stop buy if you'd like to do business. Remember though, as you said, you get what you pay for.
I disagree somewhat about getting an M only with sport (yes, I know you said IMO). You can't get the AWD with the sport. As it is also a head-turner (to many, not all obviously), some may want the car only for looks (and probably interior size--it's huge next to the GS competition).
The same could be said for the 5.
Note that its a single muffler design with dual pipes. In any event, it looks pretty nice.
The Avalon is a nice BIG sedan for the $$$. Looks nice in certain colors.
penicillin..... for example.
BMW must've put a fresh can of happy gas in your HVAC system. I haven't seen you this bubbly since you got your 5!
BTW, why are you seeing so many taillights on M's? Hmmm...lead or follow, lead or follow...
Don't get me wrong, I like 5's. I always wave to them as I pass them on the road (okay, so it's the sub 545's...hey, I needed the AWD here in MI. If only they made an M45x!).
Good point about the space in these cars, even though I liked the close-coupled feel of the GS better than the M.
M
I am assuming you have an M?
If so,turn your lights on at night and have someone(preferably someone you know) step on the brake pedal of your M while you stand behind the car.
Tell me what you think.
Remember what turned that notion around? Well I am trying to recall myself -- but way back there in the mid 70's when I was taking a graduate level marketing course, I think the example that was used required two words, Sony & Trinitron.
No longer was Zenith or RCA or Admiral or Emerson or whatever other brand (probably either Zenith or RCA most notably) thought to be the best. Sony morphed into the "it" brand and for a time was able to command prices well above the domestic (?) competition of the day.
When my friend's parents bought a Toyota -- and this was in the 1960's, we all used to poke fun at it because the word "toy" was in the name. The Corona was an economy car after all. A toy. Transportation, yes, but also an oddity during the late 60's and early 70's -- then wham fuel crisis and there were plenty of non-American car name plates that could offer ever improving transportation and what we thought of as super economy.
Now, we sometimes (I almost said often) equate "made in China" as meaning cheap -- although it is increasingly harder to buy anything NOT made there. Indeed, if you actually tried to buy something non-Chinese -- well, good luck or at least your choices would be narrowed and perhaps the prices raised.
If you need or want an "X" and a country, like China, can make an acceptable product for you for less money, you will -- you should buy it.
I imagine the first Chinese cars [assuming] to come to the US will be looked upon much the same way those early Japanese cars were looked at.
However if China builds a "better Cadillac" and you are in the market for such a car, you -- eventually -- will be driven by you personal economic good choice.
The state of Indiana recently came under fire because it used taxpayers dollars to hire non Americans (outsource) to "staff" its procurement and payment processes (purchasing and accounts payable, fundamentally). The state figured that saving the taxpayer's dollars and getting the same functions carried out for less money benefited the taxpayers.
When a Lexus is chosen over an American car (assuming the Lexus was 100% Japanese built (not likely)), for whatever reason, it does at that instant potentially take a job and money out of America. Ultimately, however, if we buy non-American products we are in part buying that product because it came from a place that has comparative economic advantages (that, in turn, make us less competitive.)
Ultimately, we will buy (vote with our dollars) the best products and probably the ones that have the highest "value" -- but only part of value is objective, so we had better be careful tossing this argument around too hard or too often.
The point is, I can remember a few years ago when it was not possible to consider any GM product as a contender in the race to be included in the LPS ranks.
The German (and some other European) and Japanese competition revived -- at least a little bit -- Cadillac. This is a good thing -- the run up to creating a competitive car (in this case) has been very painful and GM is hardly out of the woods.
But, if we were to "buy American" just for the sake of buying American, we do more to harm our manufacturing (economic) interests than we do to preserve them.
Yes, by all means buy American -- IF that product is equal to or better than or of a higher intrinsic value than the non-American product. Choice is a good thing, complacency is the mother of most of our downturns in that we, by NOT choosing the best regardless of country of origin, encourage the FDH syndrome.
FDH (fat dumb and happy) is the condition that often precedes an economic trough. By my calculations we're "about due" to enter a period of FDH sometime in 2006 or 2007. Then, if all goes according to plan, we'll have another correction and so on.
The way I look at it, those of us who are buying "non-American" cars, unless we are for some reason shunning American cars because they are American, are actually doing our part to retard the next FDH precipitated recession.
There's a reason that Audi decided not to release the FWD new A6 in the U.S. Neither FWD nor AWD does not a LPS make. It has always been the availability of a V8 or larger and RWD That set the big boys apart from the also-rans. Were it not for that, what incentive would there be to buy a LPS? All the electronic doodads can be had on less expensive FWD sedans.
Why is the Chrysler 300C so popular? Because you can get a big, luxurious sedan with all the electronic doodads of the LPS boys, RWD and a big, hawking V8 for a price that mere mortals can afford! And on top of that, and thanks to Mercedes, you can get AWD with the V8! Who else does that? Sure, Audi which is a 50/50 split and never primarily RWD, but who else? Gotta give Chrysler props. They really shook up the establishment when they dropped that bomb. A lot of the 300's initial sales were conquest sales from the big boys.
doesnt matter if toyota is producing more mid size cars in america compared to say umm ford or gm...
ksso
5 = 4,880
E = 4,670
GS = 2,645
M = 2,231
STS = 1,819
RL = 1,550
A6 = 1,382
The 5 at the top.
I believe it's deservedly so!
Others have tried to get sales to drop.
They do have a long way to go!
Sorry!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Whatever performance advantage these systems give up in the dry are made up for times 10 when the pavement is not perfect. While I can go along with FWD being an automatic exclusion in this category, a performance biased AWD system is a huge plus in my book.
E = 34,886
5 = 34,029
GS = 24,958
STS = 24,450
M = 19,151
RL = 12,213
A6 = 12,209
What does it mean? Beats me but if M sales exceeds GS sales in a month....now that would be news. STS sales diving big time.
No stab at you, sdiver68, but I doubt I will ever see the logic in comments like these. It is extremely unlikely that cars in this class will ever see a road course. Barring that, who in their right mind is going to push a car to the limits on slick roads? AWD, FWD, RWD, none of that matters if the tires and the road surface don't mesh. I think the AWD praisers have some mentality of "I can drive whenever, wherever, and however I please because I have power going to all 4 wheels." That's great, but if all four wheels lose traction, you're still going off the road just like everybody else! It's called PHYSICS!!
We're s'posed to be talking about the vehicles listed above and while this has been an interesting - if fruitless - debate about including other vehicles that are not in this class, it's time to give it a rest.
As always, anyone who thinks this discussion does not cover his or her specific comparo interests is more than welcome to fire up a new one. But the topic here has been established and it is what is. And we need to get back to it.
Thanks.
If it is extremely unlikely that cars in this class will ever see a road course...why do you need RWD? The real advantages that RWD has over an AWD car with good balance would only be usable on a track. Even that is questionable. While the RWD car would most likely be able to start faster, the AWD car would win in the corners, as the driver could brake much later than the RWD driver, claw around the turn thanks to the extra traction, and mash the throttle on the way out. The RWD car, especially with a lot of power and with the stability shut off, would have to go in slower, and be alot easier on the throttle coming out, or risk a spin.
Anyway, getting even more on topic, the most relevant and tangible advantage of RWD over the others in a LPS is the literal driving feel, where the palm meets the wheel so to speak. RWD cars don't have that heavy, cumbersome feel in your hand when making turns. It also doesn't tug at your hands while driving or accelerating. You also get a more relaxed feel while driving. Acceleration feels more effortless in a RWD while it seems a bit more frenetic in a comparably powered FWD car.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed it in their cars, but I've found that I have more of an adrenaline rush when I thrash my FWD car than when I thrash my RWD car. I've found that I build up tension in the FWD car because of the heavier feel in the steering wheel under acceleration; not to confuse the heavier feel with torque steer, as there isn't any. I'm subconsciously gripping the steering wheel tighter. I don't do that in my RWD car, except to have a tighter grip as I'm rowing the gears.
Anyway, has anyone compared the M45 Sport back-to-back with the 550i Sport?
Some of us also get less-than-perfect, wet to sloppy days maybe 25 out of 365; tops.
Some of us recognize the advantages of AWD in certain circumstances, and would still rather have RWD for all the other circumstances we encounter.
CTS/STS: agreed, the CTS is more at the 5 and co. than the STS, other than pricing. I actually find myself anticipating the model's refresh. It was undeniably a decent stride in the right direction for Caddy, and I'd love to see them address some key issues this go around and take a serious leap forward. I understand the sheet metal is to finally shed the worst elements of AARP & Seance, and the interior is a complete re-do. Bravo.
I bought a new 5 after comparing to an M, and the M was a close second. And I did not think that it had a "god-awful ugly interior" -- just did not suit MY tastes. And that, finally, is all that matters. I would probably be perfectly fine with an M if I had picked that for some reason.
M owners, try to enjoy your car without trying to make people who buy something else feel like they made a bad choice -- that's not the best way to feel good about something.
If you drive past the limits of the M35, the RWD version may reward you by spinning you backwards. The M35x, on the other hand, will most likely enter a "four wheel drift" made popular by the WRX and Evo. One is easily recoverable, and one is not.
AWD definitely has a lot more grip on the road than rear. Thats why AWD cars are so difficult to launch, wheelspin is nearly impossible.
We'd better squelch this topic before we get in trouble. :surprise:
[edit] Okay, I've created a new discussion on the sedans board called "FWD, AWD, RWD and the Luxury Performance Sedans". Everyone update your Message Centers and post away! [/edit]
freddybb, which versions of the M and 5 did you test? Barring amenities, how would you compare the driving dynamics of the two? (I'm hoping it was the V8 sport versions of both that you tried.)
I don't comment on M's other than aesthetics, as I've only sat in them in showrooms. The last 5 I drove as a shopper was in 2003; 540iT. The current iteration does not appeal to me, personally.