"Let us not go there. It is so unnecessary to bring up here. Asking for reasons behind “assumptions” (I doubt you have concrete facts either) isn’t and shouldn’t be considered personal attack."
And how did "Did you read and UNDERSTAND my post?" express all of those well intentioned and benign questions? Answer: it didn't.
If you don't want to go there, don't steer us in that direction. It's not what you asked, it's how you asked it. And I was called on the carpet by Pat for asking the exact same question, so clearly some hosts consider this type of statement to be a personal attack, whether you do or not, and regardless of your intent. You may want to keep that in mind in the future when you phrase your questions.
I'll leave your other points go unanswered... as I said earlier, there's no point in continuing this exchange.
Yes, and Toyota did engine repairs and gave out 80,000-mile extended warranties for the "sludge" problem that was disproven as a factory issue - they did it to instill consumer confidence.
As I've said before, in this area I live in, where I've personally touched over 5,000 cases in 3 years, I've seen ONE Honda transmission case. One of the other three investigators I work with has seen ONE other one.
It's all about killing the perception of a bad product - the product isn't bad, people's attitudes were, so they try to correct it, just like Toyota.
Again, on the long and hard beaten dead horse issue of engine sludge in Toyota products, I looked at 188 cases of Toyota owners who swore out litigation against Toyota for this condition - not ONE could provide adequate maintenance records to show they were anywhere near even the loosest of Toyota's requirements...
The lawyers wanted a class-action suit against Toyota, and we simply couldn't support it.
I think people want a nice, clean, elegant, single-issue solution, something to take the full blame.
I just don't think it's that simple. It's a combination of pressure to reduce emissions (by increasing heat in the engine bay), inexperienced techs, rushing those same techs, and cheap filters.
Again, on the long and hard beaten dead horse issue of engine sludge in Toyota products, I looked at 188 cases of Toyota owners who swore out litigation against Toyota for this condition - not ONE could provide adequate maintenance records to show they were anywhere near even the loosest of Toyota's requirements...
This is not definitive proof IMO. Many people don't keep records of their car's maintenance or oil changes.
It's possible that the Toyota "sludge" motors were not Toyota's fault, or it could have been Toyota's fault but the owners who suffered the "sludge" problems were unable to prove that they changed oil at the proper times and intervals.
I won't extend it either, but to clarify your objection to use of word understand, you saw me as concluding that it is not a design issue. Apparently, you didn't "get" my point in the earlier post. It could be, but if it is, it doesn't answer the many questions I have about it.
Correct in all you're saying. I simply didn't have the information to get on the witness stand and say "Toyota has a problem with their engines" because I had no evidence to indicate it. In fact, the only evidence was to the contrary, where I had were some people wanting to file frivilous lawsuits against the manufaturer and couldn't even prove that they had followed the manufacturer's guidelines for maintenance!
If their engines HAD died, they may well have had their warranty claims denied because they didn't comply with the manufacturer's maintenance standards (or at least couldn't prove it, which in the warranty world, is the same thing).
the Honda spokesman said that the C-RV is configured different than other vehicles. As he stated the investigation is still on going. Different configuration or different design sure seems to be a little blurred to me. As we all have pointed out opinions are differing. Isn't that why we are posting? I have a feeling they are looking into this different configuration pretty hard. We can only hope nobody gets hurt before a solid fix can be found. As I don't really think policy letters and warnings on the box of oil filters is nessasarily the cure for this.
I change my oil myself I hate to think there is some way I could mess up putting on a oil filter. I have used synthetic oil in my last four cars and I don't care to have the dealer do it for me. I use mobil one filters and one or two different synthetic oils depending on the case price at the time I buy. I was a parts chaser for a dealership when I was a kid and I know who gets stuck with the oil changes at most dealers and how the people feel about doing that job. This is not rocket science here. I would like to know just what a service tech "could" do wrong?
Double or pinched or missing gasket: fault of the oil-change guy.
Designing the engine in such a way that such a mistake will be fatal: Honda's fault.
Both conditions have to be met to start the fire. It only catches fire if the tech screws up, BUT the design is such that a tech screwup will have dire consequences. Hence it's hard to put the blame on a single party.
THAT'S why this thread looks like a Williams sisters tennis match right now. You keep throwing the blame for the fires back and forth, when some if it rests with each party.
Now, it's in Honda's best interests to do the following:
1. Be sure to not make ANY statement that even IMPLIES liability on their part, just to cover their tails and keep from being sued. 2. Do what they can design-wise and procedure-wise to minimize the risk that a bad oil change might destroy one of their vehicles.
This is likely what will happen after the requisite period of corporate red-tape, during which it will appear that no one is doing anything about the problem, when, in actuality the problem is sitting on a table in a meeting...with a whole bunch of people surrounding it, ACTUALLY doing nothing, but that's another story.
That infamous memo has been falsely represented. A 1991 Rutgers Law Review article showed that the memo did not pertain to Pintos or even to Ford products.
The memo dealt with American cars in general. Plus, it wasn't about rear-end collisions and exploding gas tanks, but rollovers.
Finally, the reason it assigned a monetary value to a human life was because federal regulators wanted Ford and other auto companies to use that concept, not because greedy executives wanted to find a way to justify not making product improvements. Federal regulators employed that very concept in their deliberations over the efficacy of proposed regulations.
Auto makers could make a car that is completely safe in virtually every circumstance...and it would cost about $1 million a copy. Cost-benefit analysis is an integral part of the regulatory process, not a device employed by greedy, heartless executives to foist unsafe products on the public.
This is why I approach this entire episode with a healthy dose of skepticism. (That, and the idea that companies, like individuals, are innocent until PROVEN guilty. And I do not consider an adverse verdict, a spate of news stories featuring hysterical CR-V owners, or a pronouncement by Ralph Nader or Joan Claybrook to be proof of guilt.)
Too many of these scares - the Ford Pinto gas tank case, the Audi unintended acceleration fiasco, the GM pickups with the allegedly hazardous "side saddle" gas tanks - have collapsed once all of the facts were brought to light. (Trust me - trial lawyers and "safety advocates" have no desire to see ALL of the facts come to light.)
Yes, I'm a Honda fan, but I approach these reports of fires with a healthy dose of skepticism because of what happened to Ford, GM and Audi in the past, not because I have an "H" tattooed on my heart (or another part of my anatomy).
You mean to tell me GM was cleared of the most idiotic design flaw of recent times, putting a gas tank outside the (protecting) frame rails? No way. A group of high school students could have designed a safer pickup truck. The mess on NBC Dateline was stupid also, they rigged the trucks to blow up, still though GM clearly should have been a fault there.
Ford it seems from Pinto to today's Crown Vic doesn't know where a gas tank should be either.
From all I've seen and read, only Audi was truly "cleared" or any wrong doing.
If this problem with the CRV is a tech problem then why hasn't it happened with other Hondas or other brands? Something is amiss with the CRV it seems, especially if the oil-change isn't done to the letter.
also doesn't blow up like regular gasoline does. I'd also imagine that those big tanks on tractor trailers and other large and medium duty trucks are pretty hard to rupture.
As for GM's "saddle bag" tanks in the '73-87 C/K trucks, well usually you have to T-bone them at 70+ mph to get them to blow. Similarly, you have to rear-end a Crown Vic at around 70+ to get it to blow. OTOH, the Pinto only had to be rear-ended at around 11 mph or so to get it to blow.
FWIW though, while the Chevy pickups and the Pinto were sensationalized by the media as rolling barbeques, in overall death rates, they were actually comparable to, or even lower than equivalent models from other manufacturers.
I have a 1985 Silverado with those saddle tanks. Dual tanks too, so it's "vulnerable" no matter what angle it gets t-boned from! Anyway though, the way the tanks are positioned, they're about 1/2 under the cab, and 1/2 under the bed. Even though they're outside the frame rails, they're still shielded pretty well from side impacts. You'd have to hit them hard enough to do some serious cab/bed damage before you tore into the gas tank.
Would a location inside the frame rails be better still? Sure it would, but I believe the danger of these pickups is still blown way out of proportion.
I might've phrased that wrong. With the Pinto and the Chevy C/K, they might have had more fire-related deaths than similar competing models, but overall, the death rate for all types of accidents was similar. Compared to the behemoths that roamed the streets in the 70's, any little car was a death trap in an accident, so whether it blew up or not was pretty much irrelevant. That might partiallly explain why the Pinto's death rate was about the same as other small cars.
And the Chevy C/K, from what I've heard, actually had a slightly LOWER death rate than the Ford F-series and Dodge Ram. Again, maybe more people died in fires, but overall fire-related deaths are such a small percentage of overall deaths, that it's not enough to sway the overall rate.
but I remember the Exlorer making the rounds awhile back. I remember on Letterman one night, as a joke they even blew up a scale model of one! I seem to recall some kind of stink made about the Expedition, too.
...the party truly at fault in that case was the drunk driver who hit the truck at 70+ MPH, but what were the trial lawyers going to get from a chronically unemployed redneck - $14 and a record player? GM has deep pockets and is a tempting target. Besides, a 70+ MPH side collision will probably kill the driver before any fire starts.
"It's possible that the Toyota "sludge" motors were not Toyota's fault, or it could have been Toyota's fault but the owners who suffered the "sludge" problems were unable to prove that they changed oil at the proper times and intervals."
I've been taking my Seville STS to the dealer for oil changes and routine service every 3K miles so they have both an electronic and hardcopy file of maintenance performed, therefore, they can't "pull a Toyota" on me. I also keep a hardcopy file of my own.
Maybe the oil fires aren't either Honda or the tech's fault. Maybe it's the filter manufacturer. Filters, like batteries, or often manufactured at the same source regardless of whose name is on them.
that if I ever had oil problems, I'd have trouble proving my case, because I've done most of my oil changes myself. And I'm not so hot at keeping those receipts around. I always hang onto receipts for work done by a repair shop, but just some Trak Auto or Autozone receipt, that'll probably get tossed.
But then at 94,000 miles, I'd probably have a hell of a time that any problems with my Intrepid's engine are a design flaw!
Recalls were issued by NHTSA for 2001 Ford Escape/ Mazda Tribute and 2003 Mazda6 for fire due to inadequate seal in the fuel system. Not sure how many fires were reported, but must have been some to warrant a recall.
There was a recent recall by Maserati for a steering column that might separate. None ever did, but they might. That's why I place a lot of weight in that NHTSA and Honda say it's not a "design flaw".
This would be a slam dunk case in the case of a fatality. I'm sure Honda has done the statistics and legal research for this problem. They wouldn't leave something as serious as engine fires out there to fester if it could be traced back to them.
BMW had issues with fires recently too (the X% I think). IIRC, it was related to a defective switch that shorted out, or caused the fan to overheat, but something that could start a fire. Absolutely a design flaw (or maybe more accurately a defective component).
robert: I guess that case was different, then, they found a fix and recalled them before the media hysteria set in.
andre: same here. I do my own oil changes. Here's the real problem - I buy oil by the case, some times more than one case at a time. I usually buy filters several at once also.
How can I prove which receipts go with which oil change, or even which car that filter went on (my fleet has 3)?
I keep detailed records but they'd still have to take my word for it when it comes time to match the receipts to the materials used for each oil change.
X5 was loaded with recalls early on, 14 in the first year IIRC. But it's still a strong seller in good demand.
yup, same problem here. I buy it by the case, and sometimes if the filters are on sale, I'll buy a few at a time. And with my fleet, I'd have a ton of receipts for oil and filters!
Target decided to discontinue selling oil filters, and I found out they were labeled as "Car & Driver" but made by Champion Labs (and scored well in that oil filter study that circulated a while back). Well, they cleared them out, big time. For a quarter each, yes, $0.25.
I bought about 20 of them. Every one they had that fit our fleet at the time (Miata, 626, Forester). I just used the last one recently, about 3 years later.
It's all on one receipt, though. The guy that bought our 626 wanted records so I just made a xerox copy.
Any how, back to Honda, I think they swapped OE filters at some point, it would be interesting to have someone tear them apart to evaluate their construction.
It certainly didn't happen yesterday morning. It was a few months ago, I think sometime around March. If you want to think I made it up, fine, but I didn't. I have better things to do than invent stories to post on Edmunds. I didn't have my camera with me so I have no pictures--my fiance and I were going to the grocery store.
To me, its an incredible coincidence that these fires are occuring. Sure, it could be that the case I saw was not related to a design flaw, but again, what are the chances of that? I've never seen a car on fire in my entire life, and yet there it was off of Van Dorn Street in Alexandria, just over the Fairfax County line, a new CR-V being driven right after its first oil change bursting into flames, with the driver having no clue what happened.
"Recalls were issued by NHTSA for 2001 Ford Escape/ Mazda Tribute and 2003 Mazda6 for fire due to inadequate seal in the fuel system. Not sure how many fires were reported, but must have been some to warrant a recall."
Were there any fires reported for the Mazda6? I have one, had the recall performed (they didn't really do anything, just checked stuff), but I've never heard of any fires related to the recall. Have you?
Wow! IMO, grbeck just nailed the whole argument with this post. A little reason and good sense can do wonders with these sensationalized issues. Remember - they're machines, all of them. It's a miracle they work at all, let alone as perfectly as they do.
True, gee, but it was brand new out of the box then, not a car in production for nearly 10 years. Nonetheless, I have a solution.
In my experience with Honda, you can run a Honda pretty much 90,000 miles with no oil changes before they seize. That would get me well past my normal tenure with a new car, so if I were to buy one, you can see my solution, can't you? I pity the poor second owner though.
well that's better than with Toyota! I know some people who have let Toyotas run without ever changing the oil (one was a Tercel and the other a Corolla, both early 90's) and they were both fried before 60,000 miles.
FWIW, my ex-wife also did the same thing (or claims she did, this was before I knew her) with an Olds Calais Quad 4. Not a bit of trouble right up until it got re-popped 2 years later, with about 80,000 miles on it! I feel sorry for whoever ended up with it, though!!
nvbanker: LOL, and you might get away with it if you trade.
Yes, I think this will deter a few potential CR-V shoppers. That's going to be the real cost to Honda.
How much can a little heat shield really cost? Just add them and say it's there to make the design more fault-tolerant, even though it was not defective in the first place. They could say they were just leaving more room for error.
ateixeira I guess that case was different, then, they found a fix and recalled them before the media hysteria set in.
If NHTSA investigated, found a defect and issued a recall, there wouldn’t be a choice. Now, if those were voluntary recalls (Escape and Tribute recall were separate from Mazda6 recall), then yes.
newcar31
Not sure. NHTSA recall summary doesn’t mention that. However, I did see eight incidents mentioned involving three injuries regarding Escape.
BTW, I just found that there was another “fire recall” issued on Mazda6 (and Miata and MPV) and this time it had to do with fog lights (could come lose and set the bumper on fire).
There were fires (at least 8, that I have seen Ford mention, with 3 injuries involved). So, did (or not) media jump over it? I don’t know. I usually don’t keep up with issues that don’t relate to cars I’m interested in.
In that case, the media thing may have to do with this vehicle being a Honda, more than anything else. It may also have to do with NHTSA issuing a recall, or Ford/Mazda being “pro-active” by issuing a voluntary recall.
If the source of the problem is known, it is rather easy to arrive at a conclusion, as is usually the case with a recall (voluntary or not). This, however, is a trickier situation. If it does happen to be a design issue, why “always” after a first oil change (or so it appear). I’m sure there have been over a million oil changes done on CR-Vs since 2002. And if it not a design issue, why is it happening at all? Without knowing the reason, how could anybody expect a recall? To fix What?
If you know O-ring seal is not fitting properly in a Mazda6 and that is the source of the problem, recall to fix the issue is rather easy. Isn’t it? BTW, the fog-lamp issue included Miata, MPV and Mazda6 manufactured between 2001-2003 (Recall date: June 02, 2003).
"This, however, is a trickier situation. If it does happen to be a design issue, why “always” after a first oil change (or so it appear)."
Who says "always"?
I think there are two reasons why we're seeing it happen after the first oil change.
#1. The filters aren't lubed and are on very tight from the factory, making it easier for the gasket to stick. This is true of any car. 1st oil changes are almost always a pain.
#2. These cars are relatively new and many are only on their first oil change.
As far as the 2002s are concerned, like someone already mentioned in here, those were probably considered isolated incidents and are already junked.
Like others, I believe this problem isn't caused by one factor alone. It's design + error = fires. If you don't have one part of the equation, you don't get the fires. None of this matters to the average consumer though, all they see is the end result.
Over the years, I've had several defective oil filters that have either breeched, leaked or spurted oil. Never has this resulted in an engine fire, or even smoke, because the filter was in a place that wouldn't create this hazard. I would therefore submit, that we have a design flaw that is potentially dangerous if you have a filter leak - and that would indeed stop me from buying a CRV, new or used.
I've never had an oil filter that leaked, spurted, or otherwise discharged oil. And at this point in my life, I'd guess that, among all my cars, I've driven at least 360,000 miles (took me awhile to add up that figure) Not to mention countless times I've changed oil for family members, friends, etc.
Every car I've ever changed the oil on, with the exception of my '57 DeSoto, had the spin-on type of filter...the one with the gasket on the end that you have to pre-lube. And I used to be extremely anal about changing my oil...I used to do it every 2,000 miles, up until around 1998, when I got my Gran Fury. So, I've seen a lot of filters!
The only problem I've ever had is on three instances, somehow between changes they tightened up, to the point that they were a pain to get off. In two instances, driving a screwdriver through the filter and whacking it with a hammer got it off, but in the third, on my '79 NYer, all that did was make a mess. Ultimately I had to cut and drill that filter apart, until what was left on the car was finally loose enough to practically fall off!
Never have I ever seen the gasket actually come off of a filter, though! I guess it CAN happen, but I've just never seen it.
Is there something unique about the types of filters that Honda uses? Or is it just the typical spin-on cannister?
prone to goof ups in the hands of the unqualified, ignorant, or just not paying attention...
The kind of guy that one Edmunds poster complained about who changed all of the owner's radio station presets (the Jiffy Lube guy did this..) while he was inside the car, but didn't do all of the service points on the checklist.
I've seen plenty of mistakes, but I was the position to do so - as a Chevrolet and Chrysler dealership service manager, after Wal-Mart, Penske (K-Mart), Q-Lube, Jiffy Lube, Valvoline, or Joe's Quick Oil Change and Live Bait store made their mistakes, we'd give the estimate to their insurance company and order up the engine...
These mistakes happen much more frequently than most people would ever imagine. Luckily, I've never had a problem after doing work myself, and the closest thing to a mishap with one of my vehicles was when the Wal-Mart kid put in the wrong weight oil, I corrected that after seeing the invoice, then left the oil cap off - I check over their work, and caught the error before jumping onto the PA Turnpike to head home.
Back to frequency of occurence - I spoke with my old service director and 2 of my service advisors at the Chevrolet place just recently - we determined, through putting our collective heads together, that it was pretty amazing that in a town of 56,000 (Medford, OR), plus a decent sized outer ring population, with 12 quickie lube places, there wasn't a single day in an entire year that one of their mistakes wasn't in our shop getting another motor. That's pretty substantial, and scary even more so.
this room is hoppin!.... I just believe the market has evolved and Honda is no longer a mainstay in the reliability/quality realm. I for one am tired of hearing about how great they are and how they win award after award. Yet, the Acccord, CRV and Civic along with the Odessey has its share of recalls and issues... The first year of Odessey was a disaster, recall after recall, yet it was voted the "Best" mini-van???? wacked...
with 12 quickie lube places, there wasn't a single day in an entire year that one of their mistakes wasn't in our shop getting another motor. That is amazing. I would never have guessed they were that incompetent. Guess I need to watch closer. Don't you think that would acerbate an issue like the CR-V is experiencing?
Comments
And how did "Did you read and UNDERSTAND my post?" express all of those well intentioned and benign questions? Answer: it didn't.
If you don't want to go there, don't steer us in that direction. It's not what you asked, it's how you asked it. And I was called on the carpet by Pat for asking the exact same question, so clearly some hosts consider this type of statement to be a personal attack, whether you do or not, and regardless of your intent. You may want to keep that in mind in the future when you phrase your questions.
I'll leave your other points go unanswered... as I said earlier, there's no point in continuing this exchange.
As I've said before, in this area I live in, where I've personally touched over 5,000 cases in 3 years, I've seen ONE Honda transmission case. One of the other three investigators I work with has seen ONE other one.
It's all about killing the perception of a bad product - the product isn't bad, people's attitudes were, so they try to correct it, just like Toyota.
Again, on the long and hard beaten dead horse issue of engine sludge in Toyota products, I looked at 188 cases of Toyota owners who swore out litigation against Toyota for this condition - not ONE could provide adequate maintenance records to show they were anywhere near even the loosest of Toyota's requirements...
The lawyers wanted a class-action suit against Toyota, and we simply couldn't support it.
Bet it's #1 in the Town Hall tomorrow.
I think people want a nice, clean, elegant, single-issue solution, something to take the full blame.
I just don't think it's that simple. It's a combination of pressure to reduce emissions (by increasing heat in the engine bay), inexperienced techs, rushing those same techs, and cheap filters.
-juice
This is not definitive proof IMO. Many people don't keep records of their car's maintenance or oil changes.
It's possible that the Toyota "sludge" motors were not Toyota's fault, or it could have been Toyota's fault but the owners who suffered the "sludge" problems were unable to prove that they changed oil at the proper times and intervals.
If their engines HAD died, they may well have had their warranty claims denied because they didn't comply with the manufacturer's maintenance standards (or at least couldn't prove it, which in the warranty world, is the same thing).
Double or pinched or missing gasket: fault of the oil-change guy.
Designing the engine in such a way that such a mistake will be fatal: Honda's fault.
Both conditions have to be met to start the fire. It only catches fire if the tech screws up, BUT the design is such that a tech screwup will have dire consequences. Hence it's hard to put the blame on a single party.
THAT'S why this thread looks like a Williams sisters tennis match right now. You keep throwing the blame for the fires back and forth, when some if it rests with each party.
Now, it's in Honda's best interests to do the following:
1. Be sure to not make ANY statement that even IMPLIES liability on their part, just to cover their tails and keep from being sued.
2. Do what they can design-wise and procedure-wise to minimize the risk that a bad oil change might destroy one of their vehicles.
This is likely what will happen after the requisite period of corporate red-tape, during which it will appear that no one is doing anything about the problem, when, in actuality the problem is sitting on a table in a meeting...with a whole bunch of people surrounding it, ACTUALLY doing nothing, but that's another story.
The memo dealt with American cars in general. Plus, it wasn't about rear-end collisions and exploding gas tanks, but rollovers.
Finally, the reason it assigned a monetary value to a human life was because federal regulators wanted Ford and other auto companies to use that concept, not because greedy executives wanted to find a way to justify not making product improvements. Federal regulators employed that very concept in their deliberations over the efficacy of proposed regulations.
Auto makers could make a car that is completely safe in virtually every circumstance...and it would cost about $1 million a copy. Cost-benefit analysis is an integral part of the regulatory process, not a device employed by greedy, heartless executives to foist unsafe products on the public.
This is why I approach this entire episode with a healthy dose of skepticism. (That, and the idea that companies, like individuals, are innocent until PROVEN guilty. And I do not consider an adverse verdict, a spate of news stories featuring hysterical CR-V owners, or a pronouncement by Ralph Nader or Joan Claybrook to be proof of guilt.)
Too many of these scares - the Ford Pinto gas tank case, the Audi unintended acceleration fiasco, the GM pickups with the allegedly hazardous "side saddle" gas tanks - have collapsed once all of the facts were brought to light. (Trust me - trial lawyers and "safety advocates" have no desire to see ALL of the facts come to light.)
Yes, I'm a Honda fan, but I approach these reports of fires with a healthy dose of skepticism because of what happened to Ford, GM and Audi in the past, not because I have an "H" tattooed on my heart (or another part of my anatomy).
Ford it seems from Pinto to today's Crown Vic doesn't know where a gas tank should be either.
From all I've seen and read, only Audi was truly "cleared" or any wrong doing.
If this problem with the CRV is a tech problem then why hasn't it happened with other Hondas or other brands? Something is amiss with the CRV it seems, especially if the oil-change isn't done to the letter.
M
As for GM's "saddle bag" tanks in the '73-87 C/K trucks, well usually you have to T-bone them at 70+ mph to get them to blow. Similarly, you have to rear-end a Crown Vic at around 70+ to get it to blow. OTOH, the Pinto only had to be rear-ended at around 11 mph or so to get it to blow.
FWIW though, while the Chevy pickups and the Pinto were sensationalized by the media as rolling barbeques, in overall death rates, they were actually comparable to, or even lower than equivalent models from other manufacturers.
Would a location inside the frame rails be better still? Sure it would, but I believe the danger of these pickups is still blown way out of proportion.
But the CR-V is a trendy SUV and that's everyone's favorite target.
-juice
And the Chevy C/K, from what I've heard, actually had a slightly LOWER death rate than the Ford F-series and Dodge Ram. Again, maybe more people died in fires, but overall fire-related deaths are such a small percentage of overall deaths, that it's not enough to sway the overall rate.
-juice
"It's possible that the Toyota "sludge" motors were not Toyota's fault, or it could have been Toyota's fault but the owners who suffered the "sludge" problems were unable to prove that they changed oil at the proper times and intervals."
I've been taking my Seville STS to the dealer for oil changes and routine service every 3K miles so they have both an electronic and hardcopy file of maintenance performed, therefore, they can't "pull a Toyota" on me. I also keep a hardcopy file of my own.
Maybe the oil fires aren't either Honda or the tech's fault. Maybe it's the filter manufacturer. Filters, like batteries, or often manufactured at the same source regardless of whose name is on them.
But then at 94,000 miles, I'd probably have a hell of a time that any problems with my Intrepid's engine are a design flaw!
This would be a slam dunk case in the case of a fatality. I'm sure Honda has done the statistics and legal research for this problem. They wouldn't leave something as serious as engine fires out there to fester if it could be traced back to them.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
andre: same here. I do my own oil changes. Here's the real problem - I buy oil by the case, some times more than one case at a time. I usually buy filters several at once also.
How can I prove which receipts go with which oil change, or even which car that filter went on (my fleet has 3)?
I keep detailed records but they'd still have to take my word for it when it comes time to match the receipts to the materials used for each oil change.
X5 was loaded with recalls early on, 14 in the first year IIRC. But it's still a strong seller in good demand.
-juice
I bought about 20 of them. Every one they had that fit our fleet at the time (Miata, 626, Forester). I just used the last one recently, about 3 years later.
It's all on one receipt, though. The guy that bought our 626 wanted records so I just made a xerox copy.
Any how, back to Honda, I think they swapped OE filters at some point, it would be interesting to have someone tear them apart to evaluate their construction.
-juice
To me, its an incredible coincidence that these fires are occuring. Sure, it could be that the case I saw was not related to a design flaw, but again, what are the chances of that? I've never seen a car on fire in my entire life, and yet there it was off of Van Dorn Street in Alexandria, just over the Fairfax County line, a new CR-V being driven right after its first oil change bursting into flames, with the driver having no clue what happened.
What can I say? Believe it or don't.
Were there any fires reported for the Mazda6? I have one, had the recall performed (they didn't really do anything, just checked stuff), but I've never heard of any fires related to the recall. Have you?
It just might cremate me"
In my experience with Honda, you can run a Honda pretty much 90,000 miles with no oil changes before they seize. That would get me well past my normal tenure with a new car, so if I were to buy one, you can see my solution, can't you?
FWIW, my ex-wife also did the same thing (or claims she did, this was before I knew her) with an Olds Calais Quad 4. Not a bit of trouble right up until it got re-popped 2 years later, with about 80,000 miles on it! I feel sorry for whoever ended up with it, though!!
Do you think potential customers who know about this are going to care who’s fault it is?
Remember, we’re talking average CR-V/mini-ute customer who watches the news, not a mechanically inclined Edmunds poster.
Yes, I think this will deter a few potential CR-V shoppers. That's going to be the real cost to Honda.
How much can a little heat shield really cost? Just add them and say it's there to make the design more fault-tolerant, even though it was not defective in the first place. They could say they were just leaving more room for error.
-juice
I guess that case was different, then, they found a fix and recalled them before the media hysteria set in.
If NHTSA investigated, found a defect and issued a recall, there wouldn’t be a choice. Now, if those were voluntary recalls (Escape and Tribute recall were separate from Mazda6 recall), then yes.
newcar31
Not sure. NHTSA recall summary doesn’t mention that. However, I did see eight incidents mentioned involving three injuries regarding Escape.
BTW, I just found that there was another “fire recall” issued on Mazda6 (and Miata and MPV) and this time it had to do with fog lights (could come lose and set the bumper on fire).
In that case, the media thing may have to do with this vehicle being a Honda, more than anything else. It may also have to do with NHTSA issuing a recall, or Ford/Mazda being “pro-active” by issuing a voluntary recall.
If the source of the problem is known, it is rather easy to arrive at a conclusion, as is usually the case with a recall (voluntary or not). This, however, is a trickier situation. If it does happen to be a design issue, why “always” after a first oil change (or so it appear). I’m sure there have been over a million oil changes done on CR-Vs since 2002. And if it not a design issue, why is it happening at all? Without knowing the reason, how could anybody expect a recall? To fix What?
If you know O-ring seal is not fitting properly in a Mazda6 and that is the source of the problem, recall to fix the issue is rather easy. Isn’t it? BTW, the fog-lamp issue included Miata, MPV and Mazda6 manufactured between 2001-2003 (Recall date: June 02, 2003).
Who says "always"?
I think there are two reasons why we're seeing it happen after the first oil change.
#1. The filters aren't lubed and are on very tight from the factory, making it easier for the gasket to stick. This is true of any car. 1st oil changes are almost always a pain.
#2. These cars are relatively new and many are only on their first oil change.
As far as the 2002s are concerned, like someone already mentioned in here, those were probably considered isolated incidents and are already junked.
Like others, I believe this problem isn't caused by one factor alone. It's design + error = fires. If you don't have one part of the equation, you don't get the fires. None of this matters to the average consumer though, all they see is the end result.
Every car I've ever changed the oil on, with the exception of my '57 DeSoto, had the spin-on type of filter...the one with the gasket on the end that you have to pre-lube. And I used to be extremely anal about changing my oil...I used to do it every 2,000 miles, up until around 1998, when I got my Gran Fury. So, I've seen a lot of filters!
The only problem I've ever had is on three instances, somehow between changes they tightened up, to the point that they were a pain to get off. In two instances, driving a screwdriver through the filter and whacking it with a hammer got it off, but in the third, on my '79 NYer, all that did was make a mess. Ultimately I had to cut and drill that filter apart, until what was left on the car was finally loose enough to practically fall off!
Never have I ever seen the gasket actually come off of a filter, though! I guess it CAN happen, but I've just never seen it.
Is there something unique about the types of filters that Honda uses? Or is it just the typical spin-on cannister?
The kind of guy that one Edmunds poster complained about who changed all of the owner's radio station presets (the Jiffy Lube guy did this..) while he was inside the car, but didn't do all of the service points on the checklist.
I've seen plenty of mistakes, but I was the position to do so - as a Chevrolet and Chrysler dealership service manager, after Wal-Mart, Penske (K-Mart), Q-Lube, Jiffy Lube, Valvoline, or Joe's Quick Oil Change and Live Bait store made their mistakes, we'd give the estimate to their insurance company and order up the engine...
These mistakes happen much more frequently than most people would ever imagine. Luckily, I've never had a problem after doing work myself, and the closest thing to a mishap with one of my vehicles was when the Wal-Mart kid put in the wrong weight oil, I corrected that after seeing the invoice, then left the oil cap off - I check over their work, and caught the error before jumping onto the PA Turnpike to head home.
Back to frequency of occurence - I spoke with my old service director and 2 of my service advisors at the Chevrolet place just recently - we determined, through putting our collective heads together, that it was pretty amazing that in a town of 56,000 (Medford, OR), plus a decent sized outer ring population, with 12 quickie lube places, there wasn't a single day in an entire year that one of their mistakes wasn't in our shop getting another motor. That's pretty substantial, and scary even more so.
I just believe the market has evolved and Honda is no longer a mainstay in the reliability/quality realm. I for one am tired of hearing about how great they are and how they win award after award. Yet, the Acccord, CRV and Civic along with the Odessey has its share of recalls and issues...
The first year of Odessey was a disaster, recall after recall, yet it was voted the "Best" mini-van???? wacked...
That is amazing. I would never have guessed they were that incompetent. Guess I need to watch closer. Don't you think that would acerbate an issue like the CR-V is experiencing?