As I said above, if quirkiness and "Saabness" were enough, (i.e. the key on the floor, etc...) they wouldn't be in the trouble they're in today...
If their foray into the mainstream with the 9-7x and the upcoming 9-6x (the Subaru Tribeca) doesn't work out, they will probably be out of business by the end of the decade..
Well, that's the thing - after 2010 (if Saab is still around) it will definitely just be another badge engineered GM division...then again, I dunno, how important is "country of origin" really to buyers? I don't think people really care that VWs are built in Mexico and not Germany or M-Class Mercedes are built in Alabama, etc....
yes, but the guidance over design and production over VWs and Mercedes still actually comes from Germany, from buildings labeled 'Mercedes' and 'VW'. The post-buyout Saabs will be designed by accountants in a huge building with the label 'GM' on the outside. And it won't be in Sweden, believe me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, good point - Like I've said above, I wouldn't bet on Saab being around beyond 2010 - unless their new SUVs are a big hit and they get their sales volume up to a profitable level...
The V50 has the tech cloth interior option, a big plus for me. The exterior, while nice, veers just a little bit toward cute.
The SportCombi has a very purposeful look. I really liked the biege, light blue interior color combo in the Geneva Auto Show car. The SaabUSA site does not show interior colors. I do not know whether Saab will go with the show combo. If it does, that will be something of a first.
Nippon: I think the sign on the Saab design building will say 'Opel Russelheim.' I would not be surprised if the sign on one of the SportCombi production plants says Saturn Spring Hill.
Oh I am sure they will move all Saab production for vehicles bound for the U.S. to North America in short order. Snatch up those Swedish-built Saabs while you can people! Time is short before you won't be able to get such a car any more.
As for the rest, well, as I think you know I was being a bit sarcastic with the "design by accountants in a GM building" thing. In fact, I suppose Saabs will become Opels with a different nose, perhaps a moved ignition key (until keyless start pervades all the premium brands), and leather. Which kinda makes you wonder how they will be distinguished from the "new" Saturn. Perhaps Saturns will be all cloth interiors?! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Saturn will become more mainstream and Saab will head upscale and the two brands will complement each other.. Didn't Bob Lutz say that he was taking Saturn upmarket? Where does that leave Saab?
If Saturn is moving upmarket, then Buick, then Saab, then Cadillac, one might wonder how low downmarket might actually be. You still need room for Pontiac and Chevy.
could be an American Volkswagen type of car company selling premium compact and midsized cars for a slight premium over their Toyota and Honda (in this case Chevrolet and Pontiac) counterparts.
Saab could target Audi, since Cadillac is targeting BMW customers and Buick is chasing after Lexus buyers.
to take all these remarks about how nice the new SportCombi looks, and wrap them up in an e-mail to Lexus Client Relations. Maybe then they will consider offering a SportCross variant of the next IS sedan.
They did the test fleet round-up on the 9-2x in Autoweek recently. In the customer comments section, all the remarks centered around how they knew the car was just a WRX, but paid extra for the nicer interior or the additional noise suppression. One also mentioned the slightly longer warranty, although this is really neither here nor there since you can just pay to extend the warranty on the Subaru, if you like.
Seems like if Subie put in some sound insulation and gave the WRX an interior to match the Outback (which is after all priced the same), it could gain a lot of sales.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
and of course the next thing that will happen is Subaru is about to release an all new Impreza line this fall, then 9-2 will soldier on for several years as yesterday's model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, when that happens, the 9-2x will be really dead in the water. Oh, well at least it won't be exactly like a new Impreza anymore....it will look like an old one!
Also, in the latest Car and Driver, it shows a picture of the Chevrolet S3X, (the Euro only SUV that is designed and built by Daewoo) photoshopped with a SAAB nose on it and the name 9-5x.... I don't know how much truth there is to it, but their report was the 9-5x could very well be build by Daewoo.
Is there a new Impreza expected this fall? I would think Subaru would be getting a new Forester ready before the Impreza. I've actually only seen 1 9-2x in my area. And we have a local Saab dealer smack-dab in the middle of some of the higher end towns too. You can't blink without seeing a MB, BMW, Lexus or Acura, but Saabs are quite rare (new ones that is, older models are bit more prevalent).
No, the Forester always follows Impreza by a couple of years. In fact, this is facelift time for the Forester, and it WILL have a new nose this fall, but everything else will continue as before until 2007.
But the Impreza will be all-new, and I wonder what will happen with the WRX and STi. More power? Or more refinement? Or both.
But wait, this is the Saab thread. That would be the crowning moment, wouldn't it? If they added leather and a moonroof to a Daewoo S3X and called it a Saab?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, they might as well just give up and stop selling Saabs, IMO...if they are going to be offering nothing but rebadged Trailblazers, Imprezas, and Daewoos! Just put them out of their misery!
The S3X is built on the same platform as the Vue and the Equinox. The S3X was designed by an Australian formerly with Holden who transferred to GMDAT after GM bought some factories from the liquidating Daewoo.
Platform swapping among brands can work and is highly advisable. Volvos share platforms with Fords, Mazdas, Land Rovers and will share them with Lincoln and Mercury as well.
The difference between Volvo and Saab currently is that platform sharing was not planned from the start as it is in the Ford system. After the GM purchase, Saab continued to act as it did when it was independent, scrapping for pieces to assemble as it saw fit. The problem is it no longer had the aerospace engineers and deep pockets to fall back on. Better integrating Saab makes more sense and can work, as Volvo demonstrates.
but the S3X is built in South Korea at the (former) Daewoo's plants right? So it would be the first Korean Saab ever, following closely on the heels of the first Japanese Saab ever, and the first American Saab ever? Coming at the same moment the last Swedish Saabs ever are built before production is transferred elsewhere in Europe, and even to the United States in the same plants Malibus come from?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Volvo makes the S40 and V70 in the same Ford plant that makes the EU Focus.
Volvo will make the next gen Volvo SUVs in US Ford facilities.
And again, everyone of the Volvos are made on platforms manufactured and used by other Ford brands, including Japanese Mazda and British Rover. If Ford had a Korean facility, there is nothing to suggest Volvo would not source products from Korea.
Independent Saab sourced major components from other European companies.
There is no special magic in where an auto is assembled, is there?
If there is, are you worried about Lexus plans to begin making Lexi in the US?
they already do - the RX300, made in Ontario since last fall. Not worried no. I guess it is just the GM empire is much more far-flung than Toyota or Ford.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Saab sharing is different from platform sharing (which I agree is not a bad thing to keep the engineering costs down) but Saab is just blatantly putting their logo on another vehicle. So like jchan stated, Saabs are little more than copies with nicer leather and a longer warranty... It's sad... no wait, it's PATHETIC how GM has managed to drive Saab into the ground as badly as it has.
Maybe GM would be smart for once and sell off what's left of Saab to Fuji as a luxury brand like Lexus is to Toyo. Heck, their both quirky, different, unique brands who would probably work well together.
There is not all that much difference between the EU Focus and the S40/V70s.
Again you focus on the 9-7, which GM says was a stop gap fix to keep US dealers from dropping the brand, but ignore the 9-3 sedan and convertible and Sport Combi.
The 9-3 sedan is light years better than the junk independent Saab was putting out in the late 80s and early 90s. The 9-3 convertible is as good a 2+2 fwd convertible as you are going to get anywhere. It is pricey, aimed as it is to people with more Euro car as fashion sensibility. But the Saab convertible was always comparatively pricey. Start making them in NA and Saab could lower the price.
And what all this underscores is the problem with Saab vis-a-vis Volvo is not that GM is running it down. It is that Saab was never much of a brand in sales or, quite frankly quality. It had a small following of people who were willing to pay near BMW prices for a car not nearly as good as BMW. Saab people felt they were projecting an image and were willing to pay for it. Saab had not done anything of much value to the car enthusiast since it discontinued the Sonnet (itself more unique than performance)
The SportCombi will have an option for Saabs first supercharge OHC V6. This is the 2.8 litre from GM's new family of high output V6s. Fuji has no equivalent.
In any event, Fuji would drop Subaru if it were not for the money GM puts into it.
I like the S3X a lot, styling-wise, BUT...I think it's better as either the next VUE or instead of the Equinox. Everyone with an ounce of car knowledge knows it's marketed as a Chevrolet in Europe, so I think it's a tough sell to call it a Saab in the US.
I agree with the post above from anythingvbutgm, there's a difference between platform sharing, (i.e. the Saab 9-3 shares a platform with the Malibu, G6, Vectra) and total 'badge-engineering, like the 9-2x or the 9-7x.
Platform sharing is fine, it's good...badge-engineering just cheapens the brand...
Using the Volvo example - let's say, instead of the S40, they just took a Focus and put a Volvo grille on it and a leather interior. Or, instead of the XC90, they just took an Explorer and put a Volvo grille on it....
And where, then, is the confirmation that Saab is not going to take the S3X platform and do to it what it did with the 9-3? Saab's bread and butter vehicle, the 9-3 is well differentiated from its cousins. There is nothing to say future Saabs will not be as well.
Saab dealers in the US were threatening to close their doors because they did not have enough product to sell. the 9-7 and 9-2 are not the future of Saab. They are there only to keep Saab in place until other vehicles arrive.
I hope you're correct. The picture in the May Car & Driver shows an S3X with a Saab nose, and says there's a good chance it will be built in Korea. Hopefully the "real thing" will be more than just a rebadged S3X.
P.s. I do think the S3X looks great - they should bring that to the US ASAP with as few styling changes as possible... just put a Saturn badge on it or if it's a Chevy just start selling it.... I do think it looks much better than an Equinox
While I have not seen the May Car & Driver yet, I did pick up the May Motortrend earlier this week.
MT had a blow by blow of all the new NA cars GM was going to make on the Zeta platform.
In other words, the 'news' in the buff rags is often suspect. The buff rags are not peopled with journalists. They do a good job testing cars and talking about performance. Their news reporting stinks.
I would not be surprised if a Saab is built in South Korea. But as I point out above, Volvos are no longer exclusively made in Sweeden either.
The next VUE will be very much like the S3X if spy shots around the web are to be trusted. The Saab will have to be a considerable step up from the Saturn.
The Saab will have to be a considerable step up from the Saturn.
That's the point I wanted to make up in post 172. If they just bring over the S3X and slap a Saab nose on it, that would be a big mistake. Might as well just drop Saab if that is all they plan to do.
(I went to the C&D website, but they don't have the picture there... but if you look in the magazine, you'll see it... it's obviously an S3X with a Saab nose photoshopped on)
Now, if they give it unique sheetmetal, but share the same platform as the S3X, VUE, etc... that's a different story altogether...
Basically, my point is - if they are just planning to slap a Saab grille on a S3X and call it a day, like they did with the 9-2x and the 9-7x, then they should just cancel it and not waste any more time, money, effort...
If they use the S3X, Vue, Equinox platform with all new sheetmetal, that's a whole different story - (although, that's a lot more expensive to do than a simple badge job and IMO probably isn't worth the investment)
Honestly, if I were running GM, I would probably pull the plug on Saab.
With the current crisis that GM is experiencing, I just don't have alot of promise that GM will spend the money to repair the damge that's been done to Saab. Just a similar situation BMW had when they obtained Rover for the short period they had them. BMW learned quickly that Rover was a dead end and dropped them to Ford (who IMO has handled them much better than I expected), "take care, good riddance". To me Saab is in a very similar situation under the GM umbrella. For what 10 years that GM has had interest and now full control they've been profitable for what 2 of those years?
Sportcombi? Cool, bring it to market, see what happens. Looks good, OHC SCV6, cool. But it needs to not only support aging 9-3 lineup, but it needs to pick up the slack that the 9-2x and 9-7x have failed to do. I don't see it being that much of a runaway hit. And unfortunately, based on where I live, Saab has about as much market presence as Suzuki.
I wrote this somewhere way up above in this thread... the problem is, there aren't enough pure "Saabophiles" to support the brand profitably....they (Saab) either have to go "mainstream" at which point the brand image becomes really diluted, or they have to figure out a way to be profitable at very low volumes, or they just have to pull the plug and fade away.
"Fair to question why GM bought it in the first place. Kind of a stretch to say GM brought it down."
I used to question why Ford bought Volvo. But from a safety aspect, Ford had a lot to learn and who else to learn it from but Volvo. And since Volvo has been the biggest success for the PAG shows that if done right, purchasing a niche swedish brand can work out. Volvo quality and reliabilty had faltered pretty badly before Ford bought them too so there was alot of work to be done as well.
3 years old is aging IMO. Not ready for immediate replacment, but the sales peak is over. The 9-3 is not "hot" anymore which is where the Sportcombi will help yes, but not enough to catapult Saab out of the basement. Also add in the slack of the 9-5 you mentioned and that's alot of pressure.
"wrote this somewhere why up above in this thread... the problem is, there aren't enough pure "Saabophiles" to support the brand profitably"
Exactly. Saabs had a loyalty. They were cars back in the day where you could claim sucking from a tailpipe was breathing better air than you could in the open. They were an attitude, Richard Pryor's beloved Turbo in "Moving", the old Sonnets, the SPG!
Now it's just "State of Independence" B.S. tagline attached to a Subaru.
Please do not fall into the trap of starting to take personal potshots at each other. I've taken down the posts where this was flaring up. Hopefully this will be enough to ease the tensions and help us avoid a more formal process.
Just remember to keep the personal edge off of it. And if it comes down to entrenched positions where nobody is going to budge, agree to disagree and move on. On the bright side, is IS Friday and the start of the weekend!
He mentioned that he has an old Saab Sonnet...what do you guys think about a new Sonnet, based on the Kappa platform (Solstice, Sky)? Maybe not a bad idea..
Maybe the Chevy Nomad concept with a Saab nose? (I'm not a photoshopper, so you'll just have to imagine it yourself!)
Personally, my favorite version of the Kappa is one they aren't building - the closed coupe version of the Solstice. They showed it as a non-running concept in 2002 or 2003 when they first showed the Solstice convertible at Detroit. I thought it looked somewhat like an original 240Z.
Comments
If their foray into the mainstream with the 9-7x and the upcoming 9-6x (the Subaru Tribeca) doesn't work out, they will probably be out of business by the end of the decade..
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/11/autos-112395.htm
Bob
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The V50 has the tech cloth interior option, a big plus for me. The exterior, while nice, veers just a little bit toward cute.
The SportCombi has a very purposeful look. I really liked the biege, light blue interior color combo in the Geneva Auto Show car. The SaabUSA site does not show interior colors. I do not know whether Saab will go with the show combo. If it does, that will be something of a first.
Nippon: I think the sign on the Saab design building will say 'Opel Russelheim.' I would not be surprised if the sign on one of the SportCombi production plants says Saturn Spring Hill.
As for the rest, well, as I think you know I was being a bit sarcastic with the "design by accountants in a GM building" thing. In fact, I suppose Saabs will become Opels with a different nose, perhaps a moved ignition key (until keyless start pervades all the premium brands), and leather. Which kinda makes you wonder how they will be distinguished from the "new" Saturn. Perhaps Saturns will be all cloth interiors?! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101966
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Saab could target Audi, since Cadillac is targeting BMW customers and Buick is chasing after Lexus buyers.
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News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
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They did the test fleet round-up on the 9-2x in Autoweek recently. In the customer comments section, all the remarks centered around how they knew the car was just a WRX, but paid extra for the nicer interior or the additional noise suppression. One also mentioned the slightly longer warranty, although this is really neither here nor there since you can just pay to extend the warranty on the Subaru, if you like.
Seems like if Subie put in some sound insulation and gave the WRX an interior to match the Outback (which is after all priced the same), it could gain a lot of sales.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also, in the latest Car and Driver, it shows a picture of the Chevrolet S3X, (the Euro only SUV that is designed and built by Daewoo) photoshopped with a SAAB nose on it and the name 9-5x.... I don't know how much truth there is to it, but their report was the 9-5x could very well be build by Daewoo.
Talk about diluting the brand...
But the Impreza will be all-new, and I wonder what will happen with the WRX and STi. More power? Or more refinement? Or both.
But wait, this is the Saab thread. That would be the crowning moment, wouldn't it? If they added leather and a moonroof to a Daewoo S3X and called it a Saab?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The S3X is built on the same platform as the Vue and the Equinox. The S3X was designed by an Australian formerly with Holden who transferred to GMDAT after GM bought some factories from the liquidating Daewoo.
Platform swapping among brands can work and is highly advisable. Volvos share platforms with Fords, Mazdas, Land Rovers and will share them with Lincoln and Mercury as well.
The difference between Volvo and Saab currently is that platform sharing was not planned from the start as it is in the Ford system. After the GM purchase, Saab continued to act as it did when it was independent, scrapping for pieces to assemble as it saw fit. The problem is it no longer had the aerospace engineers and deep pockets to fall back on. Better integrating Saab makes more sense and can work, as Volvo demonstrates.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Volvo will make the next gen Volvo SUVs in US Ford facilities.
And again, everyone of the Volvos are made on platforms manufactured and used by other Ford brands, including Japanese Mazda and British Rover. If Ford had a Korean facility, there is nothing to suggest Volvo would not source products from Korea.
Independent Saab sourced major components from other European companies.
There is no special magic in where an auto is assembled, is there?
If there is, are you worried about Lexus plans to begin making Lexi in the US?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Maybe GM would be smart for once and sell off what's left of Saab to Fuji as a luxury brand like Lexus is to Toyo. Heck, their both quirky, different, unique brands who would probably work well together.
Again you focus on the 9-7, which GM says was a stop gap fix to keep US dealers from dropping the brand, but ignore the 9-3 sedan and convertible and Sport Combi.
The 9-3 sedan is light years better than the junk independent Saab was putting out in the late 80s and early 90s. The 9-3 convertible is as good a 2+2 fwd convertible as you are going to get anywhere. It is pricey, aimed as it is to people with more Euro car as fashion sensibility. But the Saab convertible was always comparatively pricey. Start making them in NA and Saab could lower the price.
And what all this underscores is the problem with Saab vis-a-vis Volvo is not that GM is running it down. It is that Saab was never much of a brand in sales or, quite frankly quality. It had a small following of people who were willing to pay near BMW prices for a car not nearly as good as BMW. Saab people felt they were projecting an image and were willing to pay for it. Saab had not done anything of much value to the car enthusiast since it discontinued the Sonnet (itself more unique than performance)
The SportCombi will have an option for Saabs first supercharge OHC V6. This is the 2.8 litre from GM's new family of high output V6s. Fuji has no equivalent.
In any event, Fuji would drop Subaru if it were not for the money GM puts into it.
I agree with the post above from anythingvbutgm, there's a difference between platform sharing, (i.e. the Saab 9-3 shares a platform with the Malibu, G6, Vectra) and total 'badge-engineering, like the 9-2x or the 9-7x.
Platform sharing is fine, it's good...badge-engineering just cheapens the brand...
Using the Volvo example - let's say, instead of the S40, they just took a Focus and put a Volvo grille on it and a leather interior. Or, instead of the XC90, they just took an Explorer and put a Volvo grille on it....
Saab dealers in the US were threatening to close their doors because they did not have enough product to sell. the 9-7 and 9-2 are not the future of Saab. They are there only to keep Saab in place until other vehicles arrive.
P.s. I do think the S3X looks great - they should bring that to the US ASAP with as few styling changes as possible... just put a Saturn badge on it or if it's a Chevy just start selling it.... I do think it looks much better than an Equinox
MT had a blow by blow of all the new NA cars GM was going to make on the Zeta platform.
In other words, the 'news' in the buff rags is often suspect. The buff rags are not peopled with journalists. They do a good job testing cars and talking about performance. Their news reporting stinks.
I would not be surprised if a Saab is built in South Korea. But as I point out above, Volvos are no longer exclusively made in Sweeden either.
The next VUE will be very much like the S3X if spy shots around the web are to be trusted. The Saab will have to be a considerable step up from the Saturn.
That's the point I wanted to make up in post 172. If they just bring over the S3X and slap a Saab nose on it, that would be a big mistake. Might as well just drop Saab if that is all they plan to do.
(I went to the C&D website, but they don't have the picture there... but if you look in the magazine, you'll see it... it's obviously an S3X with a Saab nose photoshopped on)
Now, if they give it unique sheetmetal, but share the same platform as the S3X, VUE, etc... that's a different story altogether...
An official release from GM would include an artists drawing if there were no concepts available, or otherwise a picture of the concept.
This is what I mean about the buff rags not being much for journalism.
If they use the S3X, Vue, Equinox platform with all new sheetmetal, that's a whole different story - (although, that's a lot more expensive to do than a simple badge job and IMO probably isn't worth the investment)
Honestly, if I were running GM, I would probably pull the plug on Saab.
Sportcombi? Cool, bring it to market, see what happens. Looks good, OHC SCV6, cool. But it needs to not only support aging 9-3 lineup, but it needs to pick up the slack that the 9-2x and 9-7x have failed to do. I don't see it being that much of a runaway hit. And unfortunately, based on where I live, Saab has about as much market presence as Suzuki.
Saab never had much market presence in the US.
Fair to question why GM bought it in the first place. Kind of a stretch to say GM brought it down.
Saab has always been one of those 'there is no there there' things.
I used to question why Ford bought Volvo. But from a safety aspect, Ford had a lot to learn and who else to learn it from but Volvo. And since Volvo has been the biggest success for the PAG shows that if done right, purchasing a niche swedish brand can work out. Volvo quality and reliabilty had faltered pretty badly before Ford bought them too so there was alot of work to be done as well.
3 years old is aging IMO. Not ready for immediate replacment, but the sales peak is over. The 9-3 is not "hot" anymore which is where the Sportcombi will help yes, but not enough to catapult Saab out of the basement. Also add in the slack of the 9-5 you mentioned and that's alot of pressure.
Exactly. Saabs had a loyalty. They were cars back in the day where you could claim sucking from a tailpipe was breathing better air than you could in the open. They were an attitude, Richard Pryor's beloved Turbo in "Moving", the old Sonnets, the SPG!
Now it's just "State of Independence" B.S. tagline attached to a Subaru.
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I was posting this a.m. during a real long conference call (they had my divided attention!). So I kind of forgot what I wrote.
I'll pay closer attention to what I am shooting off.
Carry on!
Personally, my favorite version of the Kappa is one they aren't building - the closed coupe version of the Solstice. They showed it as a non-running concept in 2002 or 2003 when they first showed the Solstice convertible at Detroit. I thought it looked somewhat like an original 240Z.