Any downside to buying a hybrid?



  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "I would imagine the ones in the Hummer after it flips over trying to avoid the accident. A very clumsy vehicle with poor handling. "

    I doubt you've ever driven one. A good driver knows the limits of his/her vehicle. If I'm in a Hummer 1, 2 or 3, and an accident is imminent, and the choice is a major swerve and possible rollover or hit a Civic or Prius, which probably caused the accident, well, I'm not endangering my passengers to try to avoid hitting a little econobox. What would be the point? An 18-wheeler and I think differently.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204

    VERY VERY few accidents are large SUVs exchanging kinetic energy with subcompacts. The statistics show that larger vehicles are not significantly safer than smaller vehicles.

    See that page and look at the death rates for vehicles. Size has nothing to do with it.

    Smaller hybrids can be as safe as Suburbans, and are definitely safer than Ford F-150s.

    And Heyjewel, on your analogy about "not trying to avoid a little econobox" well that's just not possible. Natural human reaction by default is to avoid an accident, so you will not have time to say in your mind, "That's just a Civic I'll just hit it." It doesn't work that way in the Real World.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    It's usually the Hummer that will cause the accident. I avoid them like I avoid garbage trucks. Unwieldy monsters.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I definitely agree with that! Most of the accidents I see on a daily basis involve drivers driving too closely. With the long stopping distances of certain vehicles, I have no idea why they tailgate.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually this is not entirely accurate.

    When the Prius first came out Toyota invited a group of auto journalists to its plant in Japan and to its crash testing facility. In front of this group, as reported by the Toronto Sun, they crashed an '04 Prius into an '04 Prado ( LX470 ) using a 40km/h offset crash method as which is actually more 'stressful' than that used by the IIHS and most other countries. The reporter's reaction as reported in the article was "My first reaction was that the Prius actually came away better than the bigger SUV, but a closer examination of the cabin areas of each vehicle showed both had remained remarkably intact". Nov 9 2003.

    Common sense and physics would seem to lead one to believe that the lighter vehicle would be destroyed by the 3 Ton monster. It's not the case however.

    That being said if any car is T-boned by a 6000 lb SUV or Truck the occupants are at much more risk - unless they have S&C A/B. Then the car occupants might walk away only bruised.

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Good Points kdhspyder.

    That brings to mind the fact that small cars are hugely more safe now than 20 or 30 years ago, thanks in most part to Government mandates.

    If anyone chooses to buy one of the smaller hybrids, they can be assured that they are driving pound for pound one of the safest vehicles on the road.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I'd have to agree. I have to find a link to the European crash tests. It was amazing how well the Prius did. Another car that does well is the HAH. Small cars today are surprisingly safe. Another one that comes to mind is the VW New Beetle. It protects the occupants extremely well. Bigger is not always better.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    From your linked page:

    Insurance Institute for Highway Safety ( quote:

    "Why can't I compare vehicles from different categories? The kinetic energy a vehicle must absorb in a crash test increases with vehicle weight, so offset tests are more demanding of heavier vehicles. But people in heavier vehicles in real-world, 2-vehicle crashes typically fare better than people in lighter vehicles (in many single-vehicle crashes, weight offers no safety advantage). This is why test results shouldn’t be compared among vehicles with large weight differences. "

    This whole thread started because of your holier-than-thou attitude when u basically stated there is no logical reason for soccer moms to drive a Hummer. What I'm saying basically is: It's none of YOUR D__N business what anyone else drives. I know there are lots of green liberal demos who would love to legislate the driving choices for the world, perhaps you're one of them? Thankfully it still looks like here in America we will retain our freedom of CHOICE despite the whims of control-freaks and enviro-whackos.

    And to the driver who avoids Hummers and garbage trucks in his econobox - that's a good start to keep yourself safe. But if you all think your little cars are as safe as larger vehicles, well, you're just drinking Toyota's KoolAid.

    BTW, have any of you an opinion on Toyota's new totally disingenuous BS TV advertising for their wonderful clean cars? Will the grass be greeener? etc. As if Toyota doesn't make Tundras or Land Cruisers. It's funny but when the whackos attack SUVs either in print or with spray cans or molotov cocktails, they always attack Ford and GM. Never Toyota or Nissan. Anyone care to take a guess why?
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Costco quoted me a price on a fully loaded Preis of $3000 under invoice. (unfortunately it was after I had paid full price.)"


    A fully loaded Prius (w/ package #6) has an MSRP of $26,880 according to Edmunds. And it has an invoice price (including destination) of $24,306.

    So for Costco to quote you a price on a fully loaded Prius of $3k under invoice, the price would have to be around $21.3k for a new package #6 Prius.

    I think someone is making a mistake somewhere......
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I used to own an SUV and found out I didn't need one (FWD is fine in the snow). I have nothing against SUV drivers or people that own them. If they have a need that's their business. I just have to laugh at SOME people that buy them because they feel safer. That's foolish. I DON'T have a Prius yet, nor do I have an econo-box. If you think people that drive hybrids are cocky, just think of some of the SUV drivers the minute the flakes start to fall. They're the first ones overturned on the side of the road.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978

    You provided some good data to show that small vehicles are safe, but you can't fool the laws of physics and heyjewel is right a larger vehicle has more weight, therefore more kinectic energy and it will more likely substain less damage when it crashed against a smaller vehicle.

    To give you a more graphic example have you every seen any of those videos where a train hits a Suburban. It smashes the 5 star rating Suburban as if it were a tin can.

    So getting back on topic, a Hybrid is typically lighter in weight and even though it might be 4 or 5 star crash tested in its class of size and weight, it might not fare well aginst a much heavier vehicle. That could be ocnsidered a disadvantage.



    P.S. - Not that Hummer iwould be my choice, but one of my neighbors just purchased an H3 and it looks pretty sharp and doesn't seem to have any rear split window blind spots.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    If we ALL bought cars/SUVs/Trucks based on our PRESUMPTION of the safety of those vehicles, we'd likely all be driving Volvo wagons. :D

    Don't use "I don't think they are safe" as a reason to bypass a hybrid, because that's not true and is definitely not a "downside to buying a hybrid."
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978

    I no longer live in a snow and ice area but when I did, ithought it was somewhat ironic that the cars most often stuck in the ditches or involve in crashe for goign to fast under the conditions, especially the glaze ice, were the 4-wheel drive vehicles.

    They could start better ( even though FWD usually does very well) but they forgot that on slick roads 4-wheel drive doesn't stop any better than FWD or RWD.

    I would envison most hybrids will do fine in snow and Ice especially the ones with traction and skid control.


  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    or Army Tanks :P
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I've read numerous reviews of the H3. Everyone mentioned the poor vision from the low slung windows. If you think the Prius is slow, then the H3 would not be for you. 0-60 in 12 seconds. Really not a good car for slotting in and out of traffic. I'd rather have the split window. Once you get used to it, it's pretty cool Especially if you get the rear view camera mod it's pretty cool when you can see what's behind you on the screen while driving.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    F350? I thought the Navigator (and sibling the Expedition) were based on the F150 chassis. Why in the heck would they need to base it on the F350?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813

    1) You are wrong about the MSRP...

    2) It would be more educational if you told us what Costco quoted you.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, unless you have an alternate Earth we can use when we mess up this one, these problems are yours as well as mine. :D

    I'm not going into full detail of my personal efforts at recycling and conservation, but just will say that I am a staunch believer in both. I drive an HCH, my recycle bin fills up far faster than me garbage bin, and my average utility bill is about 50% lower than an average home my home's size.

    I think waste is repugnant, and I think buying and driving a large SUV when a smaller vehicle would do the trick is absolutely idiotic.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    And I have had no problems fitting anything "soccer related" into my Civic.

    ( I had a bossy wife and five kids at the time, and we THOUGHT we needed an Avalanche - worst decision in my life to buy that truck. )

    As far as the needs of the Soccer Mon - most 7-seater minivans will hold as many people and as much gear as a Hummer, and they do have roof racks too, and they get usually twice the MPG of a Hummer, and ALL produce smaller amounts of harmful emissions than a Hummer.

    No Soccer Mom needs a Hummer - ever.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,400
    Let's stick to the topic please. I'm going to go back and take down the off topic and confrontational stuff to keep it from generating even more.

    Also, let's try to avoid trying to PROVE things here. Discuss, disagree, wonderful.

    But positions are pretty solid on both sides and nobody is budging, no matter how many times you try.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Re: MSRP of 2005 Prius w/ option package #6 - according to Edmunds, the MSRP (including the $540 destination charge) is $26,880. The invoice price, including destination, is $24,306. munds.n.options.ntmv.1.1.Toyota*

    If these numbers are in error, you may want to let Edmunds know.

    I haven't gotten ANYTHING quoted from Costco. All I was questioning was your belief that Costco gave you a price $3k under invoice for a 'fully loaded' Prius. What exactly was the dollar figure quoted to you for a 'fully loaded' Prius?

    Forget the fact that you already bought a Prius: if Costco were truely offering Prius's for $3k under invoice, I would take a second mortgage out on my house to buy every last one they let me buy at that price and then flip them on E-bay for a healthy profit. Particularly when the actual market value appears to be OVER MSRP.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Finally some interesting banter on this board and you're going to rip it down? How is it off topic if it speaks to the pros/cons of hybrids and SUVs? That IS the topic isn't it?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,400
    No, it's not on topic when the conversation has turned to proving theories on global warming and whether John Kerry does or doesn't own SUVs.

    Just because it may be interesting doesn't make it on topic.

    This discussion is supposed to be about possible downsides to buying a hybrid. It's NOT hybrids vs SUVs.

    We simply can't wander off in ANY direction just because it's "interesting".
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    I'd like to say thanks to some of the folks here, michael_mattox, midnightcowboy mainly, for being open minded enough to see the truth in what this Navigator owner is trying to say. Freedom and choice is what this country is about. I considered a couple of hybrids for this recent purchase. But they either were too inferior to other choices (Civic) or too expensive for what you get (Escape, Mariner, LX400h), or I would have to kiss the salesman's butt, pay too much and then wait several months to get one (Prius). If the technology improves and the price comes down and my worries about batttery cost and environmental damage are dealt with, I'll be driving a hybrid or fuel cell or whatever makes sense. I will NOT however be bullied into it by Al Gore or larsb or a bossy wife (mine isn't. She's rather cute actually :>)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    >I know there are lots of green liberal demos who would love to legislate the driving choices for the world, perhaps you're one of them?your hard earned money not to mention spending up to
    $2000 less on gas every year.

    Seriously though I work in an area which has a heavy military emphasis. A common comment here is .. 'I'd do anything to keep from sending money to the MidEast'. The 'oil tax' the Saudi's and Iranians have placed on us is not so different than what the British did in the 1700's. And that resulted in..... This is of course the real reason the President and Congress pushed up the tax incentives.
    Perhaps we need another revolution like in 1776. It can be done.

    But as we both stated above free choice is what this is all about. You DO have the right to stroke a check ( or two ) directly to the Consulates of Saudi Arabia and Iran if you think your gas payments are are not sufficient and take too long getting to the MidEast because they have to go through too many middlemen.

    Peace brother,

  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    A hch is lucky to carry 3 passangers and a driver...Someone who buys a Suv wants a lot of kids to bring to events...They are that kind of people...

    Someone in a HCH is more likely to drive only their kid to practice...That is why they don't own an suv...

    So is A Suv with 4 passangers as economical as a HCH with One passanger...You do the math.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    We are a Capitalist Democratic Republic...THANK GOD

    I am with you all the way on that statement.

    I am not convinced on the global warming being affected by me buying a hybrid. I agree with your assessment of our ability to get oil out of the ground with the least impact to the environment.

    I still have reservations about the hybrid long term reliability. I want a car I can park and leave sit for a couple months, jump in start it and go. Hybrids seem to be limited in that capacity. I am taking a wait and see attitude on hybrid technology for the long haul.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,400
    We're not here to discuss systems of government (as interesting as that would be). And if you want to discuss getting oil out of the ground, I'd recommend the What is Peak Oil and does it matter to the average driver? discussion over on News & Views.

    Possible downsides to buying a hybrid is our purpose here! :)

    Thanks for your cooperation and participation!
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    If these numbers are in error, you may want to let Edmunds know.

    You might plug in a CA zip code and check the Edmund's TMV on a #6 Prius. It is $29,067 without any additional options. In CA you are looking at $32k with TTL. That is before the end of the year. Who knows what the dealers will add after the first. They will want a sizable chunk of that tax credit. All I see surrounding the Prius is greed, not Green.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    $27500 is about the list price for a Pkg 6 Prius throughout the country; there are NO options above this price, it's fully loaded with all the goodies. Leather is abt $1200 more aftermarket. A 'base' model Prius Pkge 2, roughly equivalent to an LE Camry or LX Accord, is about $22500. You choose which features you want.

    But as in all places taxes and fees are the same whether you buy a $29K Explorer, Avalon, Pathfinder or Prius. In CA, NY and NJ where the auto taxes are very high the amount above the vehicle cost is going to be high. I'll assume your math is correct. In other places the taxes are lower and the 'state charges' are only abt $1200. Again you choose where you want to live.

    Here is the comparison you are looking for I believe:
    LE 4c Camry Base model $21750 List
    LX 4c Accord Base model $21600 List
    '05 Prius Base Pkge #2 $22500 List

    XLE V6 Camry Loaded w/ Navi & Leather ~$29800
    EX V6 Accord Loaded w/ Navi & Leather ~$29000 ( I'll defer to others on this )
    '05 Prius Pkge #6 w/ Navi & Leather added ~$28700

    2005 Tax incentive $500-600
    2006 Tax incentive TBD $2000-$3000

    At least in the Mid Atl region noone is charging above sticker.. at Toyota's request. I cant speak for CA.

    Any questions?

  • katzjamrkatzjamr Member Posts: 146
    The day in august 04 i put myself on the 400h waiting list i was definately thinking about the middle east and what we send there in fuel costs. I also knew my Ford Exploder was going to fail in a big way as its warranty was about to expire. A Prius is too small i need an SUV for work and i dont care for the looks of the highlander. If there is a downside at this time it would be the upfront expense of the hybrid, slight mileage penalty in the colder winter weather and (im not joking) the silent running in parking lots where pedestrians dont hear u coming. (some people use this feature for sport) I continue to be very happy with my choice, the 400h puts a smile on my face every time i drive it and it has exceeded my expectations.
  • JBaumgartJBaumgart Member Posts: 890
    khspyder, just curious what kind of mileage you get with your 400h. My wife drives an '04 RX330 and it's been problem-free, so far, in the first 25,000 miles. Other than the added up-front cost to buy and the future cost of battery replacement, assuming you were to keep it a long time, there doesn't seem to be any downside to the 400h. In return you get better mileage and better performance, which you obviously thought was worth the additional expense.
  • carrmancarrman Member Posts: 20
    I think folks have been sold a bill of good with the new hybrids. There have been some great economy cars that get similar mileage as the Prius but don't have any of the complexity. Toyota's own Echo was great, so was the Tercel. Corolla is decent on gas as well. Scion's Xa is a great economy car with standard features like a/c, abs, cd all for significantly less than a prius and only one battery to deal with.

    The bottom line is hybrids simply are false economy, the additional purchase price of a hybrid buys a lot of fuel, even at today's prices. I see no clear advantage of buying one over toyota's own Scion Xa.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I cant speak for CA.

    You really have to want a Prius to justify one in CA. You can get the XLE Camry 4c with leather and fancy wheels for a TMV of $21,336. The Prius #6 is $29,067. After TTL the Camry is under $23k the Prius is over $32k. $9000 will buy a lot of gas in the Camry with a lot more luxury and better handling. Did I mention the Camry is now SULEV II rated for CA.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I agree that you have to want a Prius in CA if the figures are accurate esp on the Sales Pr. But again its $2K OVER sticker and I don't know of anyone paying that on a continuing basis. However just as there are many people paying $5-10K more for a Lexus than a Toyota people will pay whatever they feel is appropriate for a Prius / HH / HCH / HAH over a similar ICE if they really think its worthwhile.

    Here is a unique situation though. Toyota is running out of cars! Huh? They project an increase of 130K+ sales in the US next year but at the moment many dealers have less than 12 days supply of cars. SUV's and trucks are a different story for sure.

    For example we normally have 30-40 Corollas in stock along with 50-100 Camry's. At present we have 8 corollas and 12 Camry's. The run up in fuel prices has drained the supply pipeline on cars.
    Corolla's are on order as are all Scions and only V6 Camry's are present in any amount.

    The reason I point this out is that the TMV on Edmunds might be suspect at present. A loaded up XLE 4c Camry, no Navi, lists for ~ $25500. It has to be ordered and the price is very near $25K. Supply and demand may balance out by Dec when production catches up and if fuel drops back under $2.50. But then Georgetown will stop production for 4-6 weeks to retool for the new '07 on Mar1.

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually we have an ICE 3.3L 4WD Highlander. My wife drives it mostly and gets about 22 mpg on avg. It too has been problem free. Maintenance is minimal.. oil and filters are free for life and we pay to rotate the tires. If she keeps it that long ( doubtful :D ) it will need a timing belt in the 60-75K range and thats abt it.

  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    It appears that we have to blame the dealers for being greedy (obvious). I couldn't care if a Camry was 15k loaded, I'd still buy the Prius. It's not about the money, but some people just don't get it.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Does the Camry have NAVI/Side curtains/Vehicle Stability control/HIDs/Bluetooth/Smartentry start/CVT/ 50 mpg/electric A/C Hatch......etc etc...?

    Didn't think so. Please compare apples to apples.

    On order... fully loaded Prius/ sans leather.... $500 under MSRP.

    Woo hoooo... can't wait!!!
  • dudleyfdudleyf Member Posts: 10
    How right you are larsb. Being an American who was fortunate to pick a great career that had me traveling the world, I've also lived in Europe (NW Germany to be exact) where the typical family car is a Ford Focus or VW Golf. I find it endlessly humerous when I hear that someone says they NEED a huge SUV, Hummer or otherwise. European families face the same kids vs. activities dilemmas as we do here, and seem to do just fine fitting everyone and everything into a compact car. Perhaps it's the 3 or 4 minutes required to do some thoguhtful packing, rather then just tossing everything into the 'hold,' that is too much for them?

  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    My understanding is that the hybrid/electric motor is not all that complicated.

    Toyota is dependable as any car made you can bet the Hybrid will be very reliable...they would not blow their reputation by putting out and inferior product...

    Have you ever let a car sit for months..If so, you can buy a simple battery charger and just leave it on trickle charge.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813

    1) The straight gas cars get very good milage on the freeway but that drops dramatically in stop and go traffic and short trip driving...NOT SO WITH A HYBRID

    2) Echo, tercel, Corolla, Scion are all fine cars...If you want bare bones...but they are small and do not have the features of a Prius or the New Civic hybrids...Features like Stability control, 6 airbags, Nav, Power windows and mirrors, Up graded sound systems Bluetooth...ETC.

    3) The Hybrid is Cleaner then the all gas cars...and gets better gas milage then the all gas econobox cars in mixed driving....and on the freeway for that matter

    4) The Hybrid has far more power then the Econoboxs...expecially from a standing start.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Ahhh..that's why you bought a hybrid truck. FYI... if you intend to leave a hybrid for three weeks, it will start up like a charm. I know. Another plus? Winter starting is a HUGE plus. You don't have to worry about a puny (12v) low amperage battery to start your car. You have that nice fat juicy battery pack to get ya going. Love dem hybrids!!!!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Kudos DudleyF, glad someone sees my perfectly valid point !! :D :shades:
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  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 471
    How right you are larsb. Being an American who was fortunate to pick a great career that had me traveling the world, I've also lived in Europe (NW Germany to be exact) where the typical family car is a Ford Focus or VW Golf. I find it endlessly humerous when I hear that someone says they NEED a huge SUV, Hummer or otherwise. European families face the same kids vs. activities dilemmas as we do here, and seem to do just fine fitting everyone and everything into a compact car. Perhaps it's the 3 or 4 minutes required to do some thoguhtful packing, rather then just tossing everything into the 'hold,' that is too much for them?

    Care to venture into macro-economics ?
    I'm no expert, but if Americans only bought what they need, as opposed to what they want, neither you nor I will have a job today.
    Well, maybe that's overstating it. But the economy will certainly not be where it is, salaries will be significantly lower, standards of living will be lower, as well as a whole bunch of other things.
    But we'll probably have cleaner air and more oil reserves.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Economies are not QUITE as fragile as they used to be. If Hybrids and smaller cars push SUVs to the side of the road (figuratively speaking) then there will still be money to be made by car companies, it will just be in different ways. They are not going to make zzz thousand dollars per SUV, but might get the same profit from selling 1.1 smaller cars.

    No one is going to lose a job (permanently gone forever) because of the shift from larger to smaller cars - the number of cars sold is not going to go down, but up, as usual, so the jobs will still be there.
  • JBaumgartJBaumgart Member Posts: 890
    As hybrid technology spreads I'm hoping that manufacturers start to offer more choices that go beyond being economical transportation devices, and actually are fun-to-drive. By this I don't mean tons of horsepower and screaming acceleration, but SOME measure of performance and MUCH BETTER handling characteristics than what is out there right now. At the moment it seems the only hybrid that comes close is the Accord Hybrid, but even that is another version of a practical family sedan, and to get the hybrid version you have to pay a fairly large premium. The Prius is extremely practical (well built, roomy, great economy, even semi-luxurious with options) but no one will ever utter "Prius" and "sporty" in the same sentence. Ditto for the Civic (4 door) Hybrid. Maybe someday Toyota and Honda will offer hybrid options in cars like the Scion tC or Civic Si - same or better performance and handling with 25-50% better fuel economy, without costing more than $2,500 extra.

    I can see why the manufacturers focused first on making practical sedans even more practical, but I hope the model selection is expanded to include new choices that provide a truly entertaining ride in going from Point A to Point B!
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    A hybrid Scion Tc would be nice. I think the styling is quite nice and you don't even know it's a hatch.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, for now, hybrid components just cost too much for that to happen ( the 25%-50% better fuel economy without the $2500 premium.)

    As some point, when Toyota offers ALL their vehicles with a hybrid option, something they have promised to do, we MIGHT see that combination.

    More likely, it will be a 20% MPG increase and a $1500 premium at minimum if I were guessing, which I am..... :shades:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Well for performance you might want to look at Toyota's website at the Allessandro Volta - YIKES. Whether it ever comes to market is another story.. New Supra?

    But I agree with your search for something more than the Prius/Civic. These are initial but highly successful steps. I see what Toyota has lined up and I'm impressed by the width and variety. That being said Toyota's are rarely the dreams of driving enthusiasts. Drive an HSD Highlander and that might change though.

    Next year the new Camry will have it's 2.4L linked to the HSD and that should give you about 200+hp but Average 32-35 mpg in a FULL SIZED midsize vehicle. Prolly no Prius-toys tho
    - Lexus' GS450 might be just what you are looking for later next year also. There's performance style and luxury.
    - 2008 Tundra in Spring '07 5.? L w/ HSD - what a monster that will be.
    - HSD Sienna like the new 'Yota van just intro'd in Tokyo.. built at the same factory as the HSD Tundra in Indiana?..hmmm

    The choices are on the horizon.

This discussion has been closed.