As is the fact that more I4 Accords are sold than V6s. As is the cleanliness of a PZEV I4 Accord vs. a V6. But that's not what I was talking about.
Then what are you talking about? Stating the obvious is one thing, stating the obvious incorrectly is an entirely different matter. You definitely do not follow Accord pricing close enough and apparently do not follow the Accord’s emission specs. The emissions of the V6 and I4 vary depending on where and what transmission you purchase. You do know the EPA has the AH’s emissions listed finally, right?
Please head off on whatever tangent you want as you are pretty good at it.
ME--Honda and Toyota have been developing and producing hybrids for the better part of 10 yrs.
YOU--"the fuel efficiency/emissions benefit isn't a slam dunk either."
ME--upper 40's mpg's and one of the lowest emission stats on the market. Oh! 8yrs/100Kwarr
YOU-- "there probably isn't an economic benefit over buying a non hybrid."
ME-- When buying my hybrid (prius) the difference was only $649.00 higher than the Nissan Altima that was similarly equipped.
Now about the Honda Accord Hybrid...I like it in most ways but as a hybrid I'm disappointed that it fails to achieve anywhere near the MPG's of other hybrids. That to me is unacceptable. I've been spending some time on sites about our oil situation. Its not good. Price of a barrel is @ about 54 bucks and the WORD is it's going up because the world demand and consumption is escalating. USA & CHINA are effecting much of the problem. I'm convinced that the worst is around the corner. How far the corner is from today is suspect but it is coming. I don't even want to say ..."I TOLD YOU SO". I'd rather be saying "TEST DRIVE A HYBRID AND SEE." (mine especially) Too many critics have panned the hybrids without ever driving them. Seems ludicrus to me. Culliganman(light @ the end of the tunnel is a hybrid) GAS @ 2.10 PER GALLON PS__ nonhybrid @14 mpg's using 100 gal's of gas per month....annual cost of fuel...$2,520.00 for 16,800 annual miles Prius Hyb.@47 mpg's using 25gal's of gas per month...annual cost of fuel... $618.00 for 14,100 annual miles. SEE THE LIGHT!
annual cost of fuel... $618.00 for 14,100 annual miles. SEE THE LIGHT!
Nope, annual cost of fuel... $452 for 3400 miles in my Suburban.. Lots of room and utility. Forded several streams getting home from Las Vegas. Would have been stranded in a Prius, HAH or even an RX400h. They are still in the dark ages...
PS When I bought my Suburban in 1998 it was the decadent 90s and gas was a buck a gallon. Only 50 cents when adjusted for inflation...
I don't need to head off on any tangents--you've included more than enough in that one post. I'm willing to make a point and move on, unlike some people.
I don't need to head off on any tangents--you've included more than enough in that one post. I'm willing to make a point and move on, unlike some people.
Instead of your tangent, simply discussing the AH or something hybrid related would suffice.
Here's a question about the HAH for anyone who cares to answer: what is the acceptable price premium, in your opinion, for the HAH? In other words, how much more over and above the EX V6 with leather would you be willing to pay to buy a HAH?
The "premium" I was referring to was the amount paid for the hybrid technology over and above the most comparable non-hybrid model, NOT a premium over MSRP. Does that help?
The TMV in San Diego on an EX with NAV is $27,243 I would think that $30k for the HAH with NAV would be plenty to pay. The El Cajon dealer was asking $33k WO NAV. I can't imagine buying a Honda WO the NAV. That is the coolest thing they have going for them.
Better mileage Faster acceleration especially low end torque. Upgraded interior trim and special guage display FCD and IMA chrg asst display VCM ANC ACM Idle-Stop larger tires and special alloy 16" rims
Disadvantages:
Iffy resale value since new are being discounted $2,000 to $3,000 of MSRP. Especially down the road if the car is close to the tracvtion battery limt of 8 year/80,00 miles or for CA 10 year/ 150,000 miles. No spare Smaller trunk. Rear seats don't fold down. No long term cost analysis or relaiblity anaylsis and unknown replacement/repair cost of traction battery. Limited colors. No manual transmission. Not available in Coupe.
So the decision is more like comparing apples to oranges..
Anyway, I recently went with a Honda. A 2005 Black Honda Accord Coupe 6-speed w/NAV. Added Borla cat back exhaust, Sylvania super-star healights, K & N high flow air filter and zainoed the black to a deep shiney wet look.
OK... premium for a hybrid version vs ICE... It would have to make dollars and sense. Not that the hybrid version should have to pay back the premium in a year, but my cost to own/operate over the time I plan to keep the vehicle has to be in the same ballpark for me to consider one version over another. I guess that translates to I'm not going to pay a very high premium.
I guess that translates to I'm not going to pay a very high premium.
I think that is mainstream car buyer perspective. I don't believe hybrids will reach the average car buyer until there is less than $1000 difference for comparable vehicles. The Prius is just different than anything out there and is looking green to America. The Honda Hybrids are not selling as well as projected. Honda has a couple good sellers and they are both in their truck division.
A reporter with a major national magazine is looking for a few car shoppers who are in the process of searching for a car and are deliberating between a hybrid and conventional vehicle. He would be interested to talk to people considering the upcoming hybrid Toyota Highlander and/or RX400h.
We are also looking members who went through similar deliberations but have already made a purchase, including the Ford Escape, Honda Civic, Honda Accord or the Toyota Prius. Please send a brief description of your experience along with your contact information to Kirsten Holguin at kholguin@edmunds.com by Thursday, March 10th.
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my sister has a gen2 prius, which i have driven several times. it's a nice car. i like it, i just can't justify the money for it. it's car i would drive about 10k miles per year. i have a focus that gets about 75% of the gas mileage, but cost about 10k less. that what i meant about the economic benefit. as far as the hah goes, i'd rather give up the 15hp and have a moonroof. maybe i'm just showing my age.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Not that the hybrid version should have to pay back the premium in a year, but my cost to own/operate over the time I plan to keep the vehicle has to be in the same ballpark for me to consider one version over another.
I expect this is not an uncommon opinion, but it is intriguing to me. When I see cars on the dealer showfloor with special alloy wheels priced at $4000, or even a V6 or V8 model of a car priced a few thousand over a car with a smaller (more fuel efficient) engine, I wonder if the buyers think about recouping the price difference over time. Or is this just a hybrid phenomenon--that people expect to recoup the price premium over the life of ownership, even though the hybrid provides benefits that are hard to put a pricetag on, e.g. better acceleration (HAH), uniqueness(for the Prius in particular), exclusivity, or "greeness."
A Ford Focus is a decent car but it just isn't in a league with the Prius. If you doubt me compare interior space, equipment, premium extras and even the warrantees. Also take into consideration the reputation of the two. Resale is a factor and C.R.'s stats tell another story as to which car stands the tallest. If you drove the Prius as I have driven the Focus then we both know which car wins hands down. Cost difference being addressed now. Yes you pay more for the Prius but you get so much more. Even the sound system is an up grade over the Focus. Luggage space is a win with the Prius and a surprise to boot with the hidden compartment below the rear storage. It holds alot of extras. The Prius can go around 500 miles on a tank. Try that with a Focus. How many critics have given the Focus the accolades that the Prius has acquired these last several months? With all due respect to the Focus, it's a bit generic in comparison. You get what you pay for. That's why I didn't mind parting with the extra $$$$ for the Prius. It really wasn't that bad too. About $645.00 more than a Nissan Altima that I almost bought. Stying has to count for something. The Prius is just sharp! Culliganman(Oil estimaters say gas will go up 20 cents by the end of March)
I think the reason the word "recoup" comes into play when we're talking about hybrids is that the whole point of the hybrid is increased efficiency/better mileage. It's supposed to be cheaper (and cleaner) to operate. But all that goes down the dumper if the cost to buy the hybrid is going to eat up all my operational savings. Having to be on the edge of ANY technology is always going to hit you in the wallet. To use computers as an example, if you've wanted the latest and greatest over the last 15 year, you probably were going to plunk down $2500-$3000 for your system. 6 months to a year later, when there's a NEW latest and greatest that will cost that much, the same computer system will be MUCH more reasonable. I don't think it's any different with evolving automotive technology. The current offerings of hybrids are NOT the final answer, just steps along the way. And if the current vehicles hit the mainstream and come down in price, the NEXT advance in design will be the pricey option and we'll have topics like Hybrid Gen I vs Hybrid Gen II
If you doubt me compare interior space, equipment, premium extras Luggage space is a win with the Prius and a surprise to boot with the hidden compartment below the rear storage. It holds alot of extras.
Ford Focus ZX3/ZX5: 94.4/18.6/113 Toyota Prius II: 96.2/16.1/112.3
The Ford Focus is the larger of the two.
Even the sound system is an up grade over the Focus.
The stock Ford Focus SES’ radio includes speed sensitive volume, 6-CD-Changer, and MP3 player capability and sounds better then the stock Prius’ system. If you upgrade either, the Ford Focus’ Sony system has an 8” Sub. I do not know how that compares to the upgraded JBL in the Prius II but I bet the Ford sounds better given those that have commented on the upgraded Prius II system.
Although a Ford Focus ZX5 loaded up (leather - heated seats, powered sunroof, TCS, ABS, Side Bags, etc.) can be had for < $18K w/ the $2K rebate. I wouldn’t purchase one at that price myself but another 3 or 4 months when the $3 - $5K rebates are available might make a big difference to some? At that point, the only thing you have going for the Prius II in terms of TCO is FE and the optional lux amenities that take a Prius II up into the $27K range. $27K is a lot of $’s for a compact no matter the performance or FE.
The Prius can go around 500 miles on a tank. Try that with a Focus. My 2.3 L Ranger XLT has a range of over 600 miles from most tanks (16.5 gallon cap) in an average of 30 degree temps throughout the winter.
Why wouldn’t a Focus 2.0e with a 6 mpg higher highway rating and just a 1.5 gallon cap tank shortfall? I would say your 500 mile range in the Prius II is poor at best.
How many critics have given the Focus the accolades that the Prius has acquired these last several months?
The Focus has made Car and Driver’s 10 Best for how many years in a row now?
Handling:
Ford Focus is easily the best of the two.
Performance:
Ford Focus with either the 2.0e or the 2.3 is by far the faster of the two.
Ford also gives a better drivetrain warranty than the Toyota Prius. Five years 100,000 miles for the Focus. They must be more reliable. Oh, plus an inch and a half more headroom in the back seat, for those tall teenagers. $8k buys a lot of gas probably enough for the life of the Focus. That means the Prius starts out 100k miles or more behind the Focus. I believe you can get the Focus PZEV rated in CA.
"The Focus has made Car and Driver’s 10 Best for how many years in a row now?"
The Focus also rated very high in Consumer Reports Auto Issue this year, until Today.
Today Consumer Reports today took the unprecedented step of changing one of their best picks (Focus) to an "Unacceptable" rating due to newly released IIHS Crash Tests showing poor side impact protection in the Focus.
I add this even though the message I'm replying to was completely Off Topic in this thread (having nothing to do with the Accord), because we can probably go ahead and agree at this point that the Focus and Accord are not comparable.
... the whole point of the hybrid is increased efficiency/better mileage.
Why must that be the case? Is there some law that says the only purpose for hybrid technology is increased fuel efficiency/better mileage? How about more power from the same displacement ICE? Cleaner emissions? There may be a perception that improved fuel economy is the only purpose of a hybrid because that was the focus (small f) of the first commercial hybrids. But it doesn't mean it must always be so. The most recent hybrids, starting with the HAH and continuing with the Highlander and RX400h, will offer improved fuel economy but also more power. What is wrong with that?
"hybridization" does not and never has completely and only meant "huge miles per gallon" numbers.
With Toyota planning on a Hybrid version of ALL their vehicles within 10 years (they have repeatedly said that) and Honda repeatedly saying "we can and will put our IMA system in ANY VEHICLE in our car line", that alone should signify that "hybridization" means more than just cars which get 45+ MPG.
More torque, more power, improved MPG, cleaner emissions. That is what hybridization does.
I have driven the new Accord Hybrid (HAH), the V6 Accord and the Accord 4 cyl AND the new Prius. Around here, the Prius is hard to get and sells at a premium to MSRP, although that trend seems to be coming more in line around the country to selling AT MSRP. The HAH, around here, is available and sells fairly close to MSRP (no premium), while the other Accords (6 & 4) are available at discounts. The Honda Accords (all of them) are much better driving cars than the Prius, which is a neat car but a bit underpowered compared to the Hondas (in my opinion, as with everything else I say). That said, the HAH seems a bit of a contradiction to me, as I don't want or need that much hp in a "green car."
The Prius gets much better gas mileage than the HAH. The HAH is a much "nicer" car in terms of driving and comfort. I was bothered by the HAH turning "off" the engine at stop lights and restarting when the accelerator was pressed when it was time to go. That may just be a personal quirk, as I have owned too many cars in my youth that used to "die" at lights and that was never a good thing:) Maybe the Prius does it too, but it wasn't noticeable. With the tach on the HAH dropping to zero, there was no doubt and there was a start up jerk.
Frankly, if it is simply a dollars and cents analysis, the hybrid technology in the Hondas is a bit hard to justify. The initial cost premium, plus the "down the road" battery replacement seem to favor the conventional 4cyl models. Then you get into the emissions issues, and the hybrids are about as clean as are available, as I understand it.
I have been driving an Acura TL for the last 5 years and it has been a great car. Frankly I don't want to "step down" to a Corolla-like driving experience, but I do want to "do the right thing". Nuts! What to do....
I guess an apology is SOMEWHAT in order. Notice I said somewhat. I've sat in and driven the Focus and found it to be less roomy frt & back. I'll move on though because this site is about the Honda Ac. Hy. I see your point that the Focus is a good all around bargan. The Accord Hy. is interesting in that it has much better performance than I was expecting but the mpg's just aren't up to snuff. The price is, in this case, just doesn't justify the purchase unless Honda discounts the car significantly. Culliganman
As far as emissions are concerned, the PZEV based non-hybrid Accord I4 is cleaner then the Prius II and much cleaner then AH.
With that, the wife and I almost picked up an 05 TL for the 03 MDX tonight. Except the Acura dealership and I were about $1.5K apart I have tried to get the wife to consider an Accord PZEV or the AH as the AH is now below invoice at a Honda dealership here in the Chicago area. She has driven both the I4 and the V6 Accord (not the AH) and wants something a bit nicer unfortunately. If only the TL was VCM’ed :-(
I ran a side-by-side comparison of the Accord 4-cylinder, the Prius, and the HAH. The Web site showed the Accord has 6 variants:
6/LEV II (automatic) 6/LEV II (manual) 6/Bin 5 (automatic) 6/Bin 5 (manual) 9/SULEV II (automatic) 9/Bin 2 (automatic)
The Prius has 2 variants:
8/Bin 3 9/SULEV II
The HAH also has two variants:
6/Bin 5 7/ULEV II
It looks to me that depending on the Accord 4-cylinder variant you happen to buy, it might be cleaner than a HAH or Prius, but it's also the case that the Prius or even the 6-cylinder HAH could be as clean or cleaner than the 4-cylinder Accord.
There is only one variant of the PZEV Accord and Prius II. It depends on the fuel (LS or not) which gives the different EPA scores. The Fed emissions ratings are nationwide no matter the fuel’s sulfur content. The CAT of the PZEV Accord is more efficient then the CAT(s) in the Prius II. The AH isn’t even close.
But why compare a PZEV Accord and Prius in this discussion? Another way to look at it (closer to the topic) is, if you choose the Accord 4-cylinder with a stick shift, which many people prefer for highest fuel economy in an ICE Accord, you won't get any better emissions than on the far more powerful V6 HAH.
But why compare a PZEV Accord and Prius in this discussion?
Because Felton1 said he drove the AH, the V6 Accord, I4 Accord, and the Prius II. That sounds like a very well rounded comparison to me. He thought the AH and Prius II might have better emissions. The non-hybrid, PZEV based Accord has lower emissions then both hybrid’s and the non-hybrid V6.
Is there a reason to bring up the stick given the AH is not available with one? The EPA’s highway estimate of the non-hybrid PZEV Accord and the I4 w/ a stick are equivalent.
You own a Prius correct. How can you say that the Price doesn't justify the purchase for a HAH, but for your Prius it was justified. People are willing to pay a premium for a V8 over a V6 over an I4 ( like the Prius) to obtain better performance and usually more features. With the performance, the Accord is one of the first real-world applications of hybrid technology. The HAH is the top-of-the-line Accord and has all of the luxury features except a moonroof. That includes: dual-zone automatic climate control, power drivers seat, leather, heated seats, XM satellite radio.
Also, in many areas the HAH is being discounted $2,000 below MSRP which makes it even more justified.
I guess the Prius message boards are getting a little slow, Eh ?
YMMV,
MidCow - Honda Accord Coupe 6-speed w/NAV
P.S.- I probably would have got the HAH if it came in a manual shift transmission
P.S.- I probably would have got the HAH if it came in a manual shift transmission
Why add complexity to a car that does what you want it to do. You are getting close to the same mileage that the average HAH is getting. I doubt they will offer a coupe or manual transmission. They are already have a problem selling the ones they have built. I don't believe America or Europe is interested in hybrids. When the newness wears off the Prius it will not sell well either.
Plus you would probably not be able to add all the upgrades, wheels, exhaust, without messing up the delicate balance of the hybrid system.
Thanks for the environmental links. I may be overthinking this whole thing, as I read that the average household's energy consumption is responsible for something on the order of 6 tons of CO2 annually, so probably all of these cars are extrememly responsible choices.
I can't say that I am familiar with the PZEV Accord, so I'll do a bit more researching.
Thanks again! I appreciate the information and the input.
Honda is one of my all time favorite companies and I've enjoyed several(10) bikes and many cars(5). I even owned the very 1st Honda Coupe 600 back in 70. It was an aircooled 2 cylinder marvel. Capable of 50+ mpg's and surprisingly roomier than a VW Bug. Honda has since become much more expensive on the high end cars(Accords & Preludes). My 04 Prius, out the door, was $20, 885.00 w/ side airbags, Rr wiper and also mats. Prices for hybrids are higher now and I see their on the rise. As to the Accord Hybrid, I'm not crazy about the stying nor the harder seats I've found inherent in many Hondas. I too would be more inclined to enjoy the stick over the auto except in Chicago traffic snarls. When it comes down to dealerships and their service in our area then Toyota simply outshines Honda. There's something to be said for that. Would I buy an H.A.H.? Perhaps. As to the Prius board ...I needed a break from "gagrice". He's so persistant. Maybe he'll sell me his Suburban that gets 30mpg's some day. Be still my beat'g heart! Culliganman (my Prius suits me fine)
The HAH skews things a little because it provides both more power _and_ better fuel economy over a conventional HA 6 cyl.
As for what I would be willing to pay premium wise; given I would be owning the car for 6 - 9 years, I would have to be convinced the savings in fuel will be greater than costs for the conventional model. This also has to include the cost of any additional maintanance due to the complexity of the hybrid.
Keep in mind current hybrid battery packs have hundreds of small batteries in _series_ connection mode. So, if just one battery cel dies, the whole battery pack is compromised or useless. That's a $3-4000 expense somewhere down the road.
In other words, you wish to get something--more power--for nothing. I agree that would be a great thing. I wish life would work that way more often.
BTW, your statement about hybrid battery packs is not true in general. It MAY be true for the HAH, I don't know, but it is not true for the Prius. Its individual battery cells can be replaced.
loved those 12 inch rims on the 600, made me feel like i was pimpin' with the 26 inchers on my schwinn.
one of the factors that makes a difference when deciding to buy a hah, prius, other, or non hybrid, is the number of miles you drive. if you don't drive much, it becomes more difficult to justify the cost of hybrids, if you think in terms of saving money.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I agree that higher milage (say 14 & up) is a factor when considering a hybrid. I was surprised to find myself wanting to drive everywhere ('cause it's fun). I put more miles than expected (16K) this year. The Accord Hybrid is still on my list of a 2nd test drive if the local dealer will agree to it. I WILL feel funny pulling into their lot with my Prius though. Don't ya think? Culliganman(Ya think a Hummer could ever be a hybrid?)
"Culliganman(Ya think a Hummer could ever be a hybrid?)"
Funny you should mention this; the military is developing a tactical vehicle of H1 size that is a parallel hybrid - useful in recon roles where the engine can be turned off for a while.
There has already been a lot of discussion on battery life so I won't try to belabor it too much. Yes, the Prius battery is modular and so only certain modules may have to be replaced. The HAH has individual cells,will also probably not have to have the whole battery (all 144 cells replaced during a failure. The high numbers $3,000-$5,000 appear to be just speculation of worst case at this point in time. There just ins't enough historical data on battery life. These high figures appear to be only FUD(Fear Uncertainty Doubt) and assume that not only will the batteries completely fail but all the associated electronics also; very unlikely!
The other thing selling before the 8 year 80,000 mile warranty is up, will just pass potential problems on to the next car owner. H'mm you think that might affect resale value ???
BTW I just bought a 7th generation Accord 6-speed, not the HAH and Honda quality and engineering is really impressive. I also have two Honda mowers: one riding and one propelled and just bought a power washer with a Honda motor. I won't buy another yard power tool ever that isn't either Honda or Husqvarna. There is a difference in quality!
Alos I will probably always puchase Acura/Honda or Toyota/Lexus cars. However, after the way the Toyota car dealers treated me on the Prius it will probably only be Acura/Honda. Anyway, the next car purchase is now a long long ways off.
The resale is enough to scare me to wait until hybrid technology in general levels off.There are to many what ifs right now fo me to hand over 30grand.Who knows,We are at the very begining of something new right now.In 5 years we could have hybrids that blow away the HAH of today.Or hydrogen technology.Look at BMW.And what about those batteries in 8 years?I wouldnt by a 1997 accord now that needed 3k worth of repairs.I think in 4 years or so we will have a better idea how things would pan out.If I had the money resale wouldnt bother me.But I guess If I had more money I wouldnt be looking at a accord.Nor would I care so much about gas mileage.
Honda builds great vehicles. My wife and I stopped at the Honda shop to try out the HAH after reading all of the glowing reviews. We were ready to buy. Too bad! Unfortunately the HAH is like all Honda vehicles - designed for munchkin-size people.
That was my impression. I had not sat in an Accord for years. I am only 6'1" and my head touched the headliner on the HAH. It feels real cramped for the size they claim it to be. I sit in a New VW Beetle and it has 4 inches over my head. I guess they build them for smaller people.
It is possible that later(say 3-4yrs) you'll look back and say,"Dang! Wish I'd a bought a hybrid." Repairs are a risk on any car but if you choose to wait then there in lies the dilemma. You miss out on the smart, fuel efficient, eco friendly hybrids. I took the plunge and have had no regrets. If anything, I have enjoyed a variety of experiences interacting with the inquisitive minds of those that are starting to see the "green" hybrid light. Toyota and Honda have, I think, an excellent track record of quality cars. As for gas prices....Are you trying to convince us or yourself that, as prices soar, it won't make any difference. In Europe the running average price of a gallon of gas is edging over 6 bucks and we're beginning to creep towards 3 bucks. It won't take much to turn monster gas guzzlers into scrap metal when things get sticky. It is your choice and what fun it is to taste the new technology. What ever a buyer chooses just enjoy. Culliganman(hybrids have been around for nearly 10 yrs)
Comments
As is the fact that more I4 Accords are sold than V6s. As is the cleanliness of a PZEV I4 Accord vs. a V6. But that's not what I was talking about.
Then what are you talking about? Stating the obvious is one thing, stating the obvious incorrectly is an entirely different matter. You definitely do not follow Accord pricing close enough and apparently do not follow the Accord’s emission specs. The emissions of the V6 and I4 vary depending on where and what transmission you purchase. You do know the EPA has the AH’s emissions listed finally, right?
Please head off on whatever tangent you want as you are pretty good at it.
Wayne R. Gerdes
ME--Honda and Toyota have been developing and producing hybrids for the better part of 10 yrs.
YOU--"the fuel efficiency/emissions benefit isn't a slam dunk either."
ME--upper 40's mpg's and one of the lowest emission stats on the market. Oh! 8yrs/100Kwarr
YOU-- "there probably isn't an economic benefit over buying a non hybrid."
ME-- When buying my hybrid (prius) the difference was only $649.00 higher than the Nissan Altima that was similarly equipped.
Now about the Honda Accord Hybrid...I like it in most ways but as a hybrid I'm disappointed that it fails to achieve anywhere near the MPG's of other hybrids. That to me is unacceptable.
I've been spending some time on sites about our oil situation. Its not good. Price of a barrel is @ about 54 bucks and the WORD is it's going up because the world demand and consumption is escalating. USA & CHINA are effecting much of the problem. I'm convinced that the worst is around the corner. How far the corner is from today is suspect but it is coming. I don't even want to say ..."I TOLD YOU SO". I'd rather be saying "TEST DRIVE A HYBRID AND SEE." (mine especially) Too many critics have panned the hybrids without ever driving them. Seems ludicrus to me.
Culliganman(light @ the end of the tunnel is a hybrid) GAS @ 2.10 PER GALLON
PS__ nonhybrid @14 mpg's using 100 gal's of gas per month....annual cost of fuel...$2,520.00 for 16,800 annual miles
Prius Hyb.@47 mpg's using 25gal's of gas per month...annual cost of fuel... $618.00 for 14,100 annual miles. SEE THE LIGHT!
Nope, annual cost of fuel... $452 for 3400 miles in my Suburban.. Lots of room and utility. Forded several streams getting home from Las Vegas. Would have been stranded in a Prius, HAH or even an RX400h. They are still in the dark ages...
PS
When I bought my Suburban in 1998 it was the decadent 90s and gas was a buck a gallon. Only 50 cents when adjusted for inflation...
http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html
I don't need to head off on any tangents--you've included more than enough in that one post. I'm willing to make a point and move on, unlike some people.
Instead of your tangent, simply discussing the AH or something hybrid related would suffice.
Wayne R. Gerdes
Here's a question about the HAH for anyone who cares to answer: what is the acceptable price premium, in your opinion, for the HAH? In other words, how much more over and above the EX V6 with leather would you be willing to pay to buy a HAH?
Advantages:
Better mileage
Faster acceleration especially low end torque.
Upgraded interior trim and special guage display
FCD and IMA chrg asst display
VCM
ANC
ACM
Idle-Stop
larger tires and special alloy 16" rims
Disadvantages:
Iffy resale value since new are being discounted $2,000 to $3,000 of MSRP. Especially down the road if the car is close to the tracvtion battery limt of 8 year/80,00 miles or for CA 10 year/ 150,000 miles.
No spare
Smaller trunk.
Rear seats don't fold down.
No long term cost analysis or relaiblity anaylsis and unknown replacement/repair cost of traction battery.
Limited colors.
No manual transmission.
Not available in Coupe.
So the decision is more like comparing apples to oranges..
Anyway, I recently went with a Honda. A 2005 Black Honda Accord Coupe 6-speed w/NAV. Added Borla cat back exhaust, Sylvania super-star healights, K & N high flow air filter and zainoed the black to a deep shiney wet look.
Good Luck,
MidCow
I think that is mainstream car buyer perspective. I don't believe hybrids will reach the average car buyer until there is less than $1000 difference for comparable vehicles. The Prius is just different than anything out there and is looking green to America. The Honda Hybrids are not selling as well as projected. Honda has a couple good sellers and they are both in their truck division.
We are also looking members who went through similar deliberations but have already made a purchase, including the Ford Escape, Honda Civic, Honda Accord or the Toyota Prius. Please send a brief description of your experience along with your contact information to Kirsten Holguin at kholguin@edmunds.com by Thursday, March 10th.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
as far as the hah goes, i'd rather give up the 15hp and have a moonroof. maybe i'm just showing my age.
I expect this is not an uncommon opinion, but it is intriguing to me. When I see cars on the dealer showfloor with special alloy wheels priced at $4000, or even a V6 or V8 model of a car priced a few thousand over a car with a smaller (more fuel efficient) engine, I wonder if the buyers think about recouping the price difference over time. Or is this just a hybrid phenomenon--that people expect to recoup the price premium over the life of ownership, even though the hybrid provides benefits that are hard to put a pricetag on, e.g. better acceleration (HAH), uniqueness(for the Prius in particular), exclusivity, or "greeness."
The Prius can go around 500 miles on a tank. Try that with a Focus. How many critics have given the Focus the accolades that the Prius has acquired these last several months? With all due respect to the Focus, it's a bit generic in comparison. You get what you pay for. That's why I didn't mind parting with the extra $$$$ for the Prius. It really wasn't that bad too. About $645.00 more than a Nissan Altima that I almost bought. Stying has to count for something. The Prius is just sharp!
Culliganman(Oil estimaters say gas will go up 20 cents by the end of March)
Having to be on the edge of ANY technology is always going to hit you in the wallet. To use computers as an example, if you've wanted the latest and greatest over the last 15 year, you probably were going to plunk down $2500-$3000 for your system. 6 months to a year later, when there's a NEW latest and greatest that will cost that much, the same computer system will be MUCH more reasonable. I don't think it's any different with evolving automotive technology. The current offerings of hybrids are NOT the final answer, just steps along the way. And if the current vehicles hit the mainstream and come down in price, the NEXT advance in design will be the pricey option and we'll have topics like Hybrid Gen I vs Hybrid Gen II
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If you doubt me compare interior space, equipment, premium extras Luggage space is a win with the Prius and a surprise to boot with the hidden compartment below the rear storage. It holds alot of extras.
Size: Passenger Volume (cu. ft.)/Luggage Capacity (cu. ft.)/Total (cu. ft.)
Ford Focus ZX3/ZX5: 94.4/18.6/113
Toyota Prius II: 96.2/16.1/112.3
The Ford Focus is the larger of the two.
Even the sound system is an up grade over the Focus.
The stock Ford Focus SES’ radio includes speed sensitive volume, 6-CD-Changer, and MP3 player capability and sounds better then the stock Prius’ system. If you upgrade either, the Ford Focus’ Sony system has an 8” Sub. I do not know how that compares to the upgraded JBL in the Prius II but I bet the Ford sounds better given those that have commented on the upgraded Prius II system.
Although a Ford Focus ZX5 loaded up (leather - heated seats, powered sunroof, TCS, ABS, Side Bags, etc.) can be had for < $18K w/ the $2K rebate. I wouldn’t purchase one at that price myself but another 3 or 4 months when the $3 - $5K rebates are available might make a big difference to some? At that point, the only thing you have going for the Prius II in terms of TCO is FE and the optional lux amenities that take a Prius II up into the $27K range. $27K is a lot of $’s for a compact no matter the performance or FE.
The Prius can go around 500 miles on a tank. Try that with a Focus.
My 2.3 L Ranger XLT has a range of over 600 miles from most tanks (16.5 gallon cap) in an average of 30 degree temps throughout the winter.
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/car/380
Why wouldn’t a Focus 2.0e with a 6 mpg higher highway rating and just a 1.5 gallon cap tank shortfall? I would say your 500 mile range in the Prius II is poor at best.
How many critics have given the Focus the accolades that the Prius has acquired these last several months?
The Focus has made Car and Driver’s 10 Best for how many years in a row now?
Handling:
Ford Focus is easily the best of the two.
Performance:
Ford Focus with either the 2.0e or the 2.3 is by far the faster of the two.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Ford also gives a better drivetrain warranty than the Toyota Prius. Five years 100,000 miles for the Focus. They must be more reliable. Oh, plus an inch and a half more headroom in the back seat, for those tall teenagers. $8k buys a lot of gas probably enough for the life of the Focus. That means the Prius starts out 100k miles or more behind the Focus. I believe you can get the Focus PZEV rated in CA.
The Focus also rated very high in Consumer Reports Auto Issue this year, until Today.
Today Consumer Reports today took the unprecedented step of changing one of their best picks (Focus) to an "Unacceptable" rating due to newly released IIHS Crash Tests showing poor side impact protection in the Focus.
I add this even though the message I'm replying to was completely Off Topic in this thread (having nothing to do with the Accord), because we can probably go ahead and agree at this point that the Focus and Accord are not comparable.
Why must that be the case? Is there some law that says the only purpose for hybrid technology is increased fuel efficiency/better mileage? How about more power from the same displacement ICE? Cleaner emissions? There may be a perception that improved fuel economy is the only purpose of a hybrid because that was the focus (small f) of the first commercial hybrids. But it doesn't mean it must always be so. The most recent hybrids, starting with the HAH and continuing with the Highlander and RX400h, will offer improved fuel economy but also more power. What is wrong with that?
With Toyota planning on a Hybrid version of ALL their vehicles within 10 years (they have repeatedly said that) and Honda repeatedly saying "we can and will put our IMA system in ANY VEHICLE in our car line", that alone should signify that "hybridization" means more than just cars which get 45+ MPG.
More torque, more power, improved MPG, cleaner emissions. That is what hybridization does.
The Prius gets much better gas mileage than the HAH. The HAH is a much "nicer" car in terms of driving and comfort. I was bothered by the HAH turning "off" the engine at stop lights and restarting when the accelerator was pressed when it was time to go. That may just be a personal quirk, as I have owned too many cars in my youth that used to "die" at lights and that was never a good thing:) Maybe the Prius does it too, but it wasn't noticeable. With the tach on the HAH dropping to zero, there was no doubt and there was a start up jerk.
Frankly, if it is simply a dollars and cents analysis, the hybrid technology in the Hondas is a bit hard to justify. The initial cost premium, plus the "down the road" battery replacement seem to favor the conventional 4cyl models. Then you get into the emissions issues, and the hybrids are about as clean as are available, as I understand it.
I have been driving an Acura TL for the last 5 years and it has been a great car. Frankly I don't want to "step down" to a Corolla-like driving experience, but I do want to "do the right thing". Nuts! What to do....
The Accord Hy. is interesting in that it has much better performance than I was expecting but the mpg's just aren't up to snuff. The price is, in this case, just doesn't justify the purchase unless Honda discounts the car significantly.
Culliganman
As far as emissions are concerned, the PZEV based non-hybrid Accord I4 is cleaner then the Prius II and much cleaner then AH.
With that, the wife and I almost picked up an 05 TL for the 03 MDX tonight. Except the Acura dealership and I were about $1.5K apart I have tried to get the wife to consider an Accord PZEV or the AH as the AH is now below invoice at a Honda dealership here in the Chicago area. She has driven both the I4 and the V6 Accord (not the AH) and wants something a bit nicer unfortunately. If only the TL was VCM’ed :-(
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm - Nationwide - EPA Score/Fed rating
Accord PZEV non-Hybrid: 9/Tier II-Bin2
Prius II: 8/Tier II-Bin3
AH: 6/Tier II-Bin5
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
6/LEV II (automatic)
6/LEV II (manual)
6/Bin 5 (automatic)
6/Bin 5 (manual)
9/SULEV II (automatic)
9/Bin 2 (automatic)
The Prius has 2 variants:
8/Bin 3
9/SULEV II
The HAH also has two variants:
6/Bin 5
7/ULEV II
It looks to me that depending on the Accord 4-cylinder variant you happen to buy, it might be cleaner than a HAH or Prius, but it's also the case that the Prius or even the 6-cylinder HAH could be as clean or cleaner than the 4-cylinder Accord.
There is only one variant of the PZEV Accord and Prius II. It depends on the fuel (LS or not) which gives the different EPA scores. The Fed emissions ratings are nationwide no matter the fuel’s sulfur content. The CAT of the PZEV Accord is more efficient then the CAT(s) in the Prius II. The AH isn’t even close.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
But why compare a PZEV Accord and Prius in this discussion?
Because Felton1 said he drove the AH, the V6 Accord, I4 Accord, and the Prius II. That sounds like a very well rounded comparison to me. He thought the AH and Prius II might have better emissions. The non-hybrid, PZEV based Accord has lower emissions then both hybrid’s and the non-hybrid V6.
Is there a reason to bring up the stick given the AH is not available with one? The EPA’s highway estimate of the non-hybrid PZEV Accord and the I4 w/ a stick are equivalent.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
You own a Prius correct. How can you say that the Price doesn't justify the purchase for a HAH, but for your Prius it was justified. People are willing to pay a premium for a V8 over a V6 over an I4 ( like the Prius) to obtain better performance and usually more features. With the performance, the Accord is one of the first real-world applications of hybrid technology. The HAH is the top-of-the-line Accord and has all of the luxury features except a moonroof. That includes: dual-zone automatic climate control, power drivers seat, leather, heated seats, XM satellite radio.
Also, in many areas the HAH is being discounted $2,000 below MSRP which makes it even more justified.
I guess the Prius message boards are getting a little slow, Eh ?
YMMV,
MidCow - Honda Accord Coupe 6-speed w/NAV
P.S.- I probably would have got the HAH if it came in a manual shift transmission
Why add complexity to a car that does what you want it to do. You are getting close to the same mileage that the average HAH is getting. I doubt they will offer a coupe or manual transmission. They are already have a problem selling the ones they have built. I don't believe America or Europe is interested in hybrids. When the newness wears off the Prius it will not sell well either.
Plus you would probably not be able to add all the upgrades, wheels, exhaust, without messing up the delicate balance of the hybrid system.
I can't say that I am familiar with the PZEV Accord, so I'll do a bit more researching.
Thanks again! I appreciate the information and the input.
Felton
As to the Prius board ...I needed a break from "gagrice". He's so persistant. Maybe he'll sell me his Suburban that gets 30mpg's some day. Be still my beat'g heart!
Culliganman (my Prius suits me fine)
Yes, and I already stated one reason above.
If you can compare a 4-cylinder car to a 6-cylinder car, I think a comparison of an automatic to a stick shift is fair game.
As for what I would be willing to pay premium wise;
given I would be owning the car for 6 - 9 years, I would have to be convinced the savings in fuel will be greater than costs for the conventional model. This also has to include the cost of any additional maintanance due to the complexity of the hybrid.
Keep in mind current hybrid battery packs have hundreds of small batteries in _series_ connection mode. So, if just one battery cel dies, the whole battery pack is compromised or useless. That's a $3-4000
expense somewhere down the road.
BTW, your statement about hybrid battery packs is not true in general. It MAY be true for the HAH, I don't know, but it is not true for the Prius. Its individual battery cells can be replaced.
one of the factors that makes a difference when deciding to buy a hah, prius, other, or non hybrid, is the number of miles you drive.
if you don't drive much, it becomes more difficult to justify the cost of hybrids, if you think in terms of saving money.
Culliganman(Ya think a Hummer could ever be a hybrid?)
And yes, you have a point about the extra power. How much that is worth is something I would have to think on.
Funny you should mention this; the military is developing a tactical vehicle of H1 size that is a parallel hybrid - useful in recon roles where the engine can be turned off for a while.
The other thing selling before the 8 year 80,000 mile warranty is up, will just pass potential problems on to the next car owner. H'mm you think that might affect resale value ???
BTW I just bought a 7th generation Accord 6-speed, not the HAH and Honda quality and engineering is really impressive. I also have two Honda mowers: one riding and one propelled and just bought a power washer with a Honda motor. I won't buy another yard power tool ever that isn't either Honda or Husqvarna. There is a difference in quality!
Alos I will probably always puchase Acura/Honda or Toyota/Lexus cars. However, after the way the Toyota car dealers treated me on the Prius it will probably only be Acura/Honda. Anyway, the next car purchase is now a long long ways off.
Cheers,
MidCow the Manual Shift Man
That was my impression. I had not sat in an Accord for years. I am only 6'1" and my head touched the headliner on the HAH. It feels real cramped for the size they claim it to be. I sit in a New VW Beetle and it has 4 inches over my head. I guess they build them for smaller people.
I took the plunge and have had no regrets. If anything, I have enjoyed a variety of experiences interacting with the inquisitive minds of those that are starting to see the "green" hybrid light. Toyota and Honda have, I think, an excellent track record of quality cars.
As for gas prices....Are you trying to convince us or yourself that, as prices soar, it won't make any difference. In Europe the running average price of a gallon of gas is edging over 6 bucks and we're beginning to creep towards 3 bucks. It won't take much to turn monster gas guzzlers into scrap metal when things get sticky.
It is your choice and what fun it is to taste the new technology. What ever a buyer chooses just enjoy.
Culliganman(hybrids have been around for nearly 10 yrs)