Motorsports

rsholland

Did a search here at Edmunds, and found two (archived) threads on this subject, and thought it would be fun to re-start this discussion again.

Bob

rsholland

http://www.subaru-msm.com/global/

So far there have been three '05 WRC rallies, and Solberg has won the last two, and DNF in the first one.

Bob

lemko

Last weekend there was a NASCAR race held in Mexico that looked more like a Formula-1 race. This was the first time a major NASCAR race was held in Mexico.

andys120

OK I'll bite, in what way did the Mexican NASCAR race look like an F-1 race?

lemko

...instead of just going around left in a oval there were actually some right hand curves in the track.

1racefan

Well, there was a lot of patriotism being shown by the Mexican and American fans. Kind of similar to how the Italians will go crazy when the F1 guys go to the Italian Gran Prix.

dcm61

NASCAR also runs a road course in Sonoma, CA.

I think there's at least one more NASCAR road course but I don't recall where.

Edit: The other NASCAR road course is Watkins Glen, NY.

DaveM

seminole_kev

If you get a chance, check out the coverage of the Rally of Mexico from this last weekend(new event to the WRC circuit this year). Loeb in one of the Citroens starts to lose a wheel. Well the thing goes to hell and wears the rim down to a nub and then finishes falling apart. Basically dragging on the right-rear axle.

Well he has the co-driver hanging out his (driver's side) window trying to help counter-balance the car to releave some of the friction. Between stages is on public roads so the Cops see this guy hanging out the window of this rally car with one corner dragging and pull him over. Cop takes a picture with his cellphone and sends it to his supervisor to see what to do. They end up letting them continue on the public road with a police motorcycle escort.

They did get into into the service pit to work on it. Pretty neat.

rsholland

Yep, I saw that last night on the SPEED Channel.

Bob

ozman62

This is actually the second running of this rally. Inaugural event was last year. The footage of Loeb's co-driver hanging out the door as a counterbalance was pretty funny, it reminded me of my catamaran racing days.... Nice win for Solberg, it looks like the new iteration of the WRC Impreza is going to be very competitive. GO SUBARU!!
Owen

andys120

Edit: The other NASCAR road course is Watkins Glen, NY

The Glen is a great road course. I went to my first race there way back in '63 (USGP-G. Hill won). It's now owned by International Speedway Corp which is controlled by the France family.

I'd give a lot to see another F1 race there.

carlisimo

I really want to get into following the WRC, but I don't know any basics about how it's organized or even how the races work. The WRC's website wasn't all that helpful, though I'll try it again. Any better sites for noobs?

corsicachevy

NASCAR would earn a lot of respect from fans of other forms of motorsports and even some of its own drivers if it just dumped those awful restrictor place races and replaced them with some nice road courses.

Imagine dumping the four "plate tracks" and substituting the road course at Indy, Road America, the road course at Daytona and the Canadian Grand Prix course. This would be in addition to Sonoma and Watkins Glen. Six road courses would not be overkill and would spice up the schedule.

It will never happen because the plate races score big with the TV ratings for reasons unknown to me.

My two cents

seminole_kev

yep, you're right. I had forgotten that they ran that last year (I think because I missed the coverage of that race). I wish they'd add at least one more event to N. America (either U.S. or Canada would be nice).

carlisimo

F1's lost a lot of interest and I've read some interesting ideas on how to change it, in various places. They all involve reducing speeds... I guess as you go faster, the driver's role is reduced and it becomes harder to make passes and moves that are cool to watch.

Some articles just advocate making the cars technologically simpler, which would help the cost problems that seem to exist.

Another was to limit fuel refills, severely. Schumacher seems to win a lot of his races just by spending less time in the pit, so I like this idea. It'd also redirect some of the focus that goes into F1 engines... imagine if "race on sunday, sell on monday" applied to fuel efficient cars too. It would also force drivers to pace themselves and that'd be an interesting challenge too.

I don't know if I like that one more, or the idea to severely limit ground effects (wings, spoilers, etc). Low stability would mean lots more braking before any corner, which means more passing opportunities. Oversteer is always fun to watch. Of course that probably means crashes too, which aren't a good thing for the sport.

PF_Flyer

I know that racing is all about pushing it to the limit, but it would be interesting to see what would result if the cars had to finish the Indy 500 or Daytona 500 on 20% less fuel or one less set of tires. I don't want to turn them into a road rally, but if the speeds and safety are a big concern, forcing the drivers to dial it back a bit in order to make it through the race would get them to the result.

michaellno

Can't think of any other web sites, but let me see if I can give you a "100 words or less" description of WRC rallying.

The cars don't race each other, they race the clock. Each car (with driver and co-driver / navigator) runs a "stage", which is a fixed length of public road closed for the race. The driver has not really had a chance to drive the road ahead of time, and relies on the co-drivers notes to find out the road ahead - left or right turns, how severe, etc. Fastest time wins, with order determined by how far behind the fastest driver you are (1.1 sec, 18.3 sec, etc.).

The rally runs over 2.5-3 days (Fri-Sat-Sun), with the number of stages varying by day. Some stages are run twice in a day; a stage can range in length from a mile or two to up to 20-25 miles. Between the stages, the cars are driven on public roads (hence the story of the Citroen being pulled over by the local policia).

Lowest elapsed time for all the race stages wins the rally. Points are awarded like F1 - 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 for 1st through 8th place. There is a drivers championship and a manufacturers championship -- but, only two factory cars can be nominated to score points in each rally.

The season is 16 events, most of which occur in Europe, but there is the one each in Mexico, New Zealand, Australia and Japan.

Throughout the day, the cars can go into specially marked service areas (usually after 2 or 3 stages). The service teams have a fixed amount of time (20-30 minutes, IIRC) to repair any damage done.

Tires have to be chosen prior to the first stage of the day, and can have a big influence in the results.

OK, so maybe it's a bit longer than 100 words, but if you have any questions, just ask. I'm a relative newcomer fan myself, but find it absolutely fascinating to watch.

Factory teams this year include Citroen, Peugeot, Ford, Mitsubishi, Subaru and Skoda. Citroen and Peugeot are leaving after this season.

andys120

Oversteer is always fun to watch. Of course that probably means crashes too, which aren't a good thing for the sport.

There's a whole branch of motorsport that's built around oversteer, it's called "drifting". I like watching replays of races from the pre-aerodynamic era because you can see the tail come out on every single car in certain corners.

It doesn't have to mean crashes if speeds are kept down to reasonable levels and drivers are capable of good car control, after all that's what racing talent; is about.

carlisimo

Cool, thanks!

That really helps; it'll be easier to make sense of WRC news that's easy to find, knowing those basics. One thing... are the drivers' and manufacturers' championships two different tournaments within a season? Or are they two trophies awarded after the same set of events?

(And can the WRC survive the loss of one third of its manufacturers? Maybe they'll need cost control more than F1?)

njswamplands

as i never seem to have time to watch it live nor have i gotten tivo type device

michaellno

Two championships are awarded at the end of the season; both use the same events for points scoring. If you go to www.wrc.com and poke around, you can see the breakdown of the drivers and manufacturers points earned by event.

A typical WRC car costs in the neighborhood of $400-500K, I believe. I don't think that the cost is driving Peugeot/Citroen from WRC -- rather, I think they've accomplished what they set out to do, and will be putting their money towards other motorsports ventures.

In the past, Toyota had a WRC presence, but they dropped out to concentrate on F1. At the moment, both Mistu and Skoda are the "also-rans", but I suspect that will change starting next season.

Like F1, there is a lot of drivers switching teams from year to year. Last year, Ford had Markko Martin and Francios Duval under contract; this year, Martin is driving for Peugeot and Duval for Citroen. Ford got Tony Gardemeister from Skoda to be their #1 driver this year.

What's fun about the events is that each one is slightly different .. the terrain and road make up varies quite a bit. For example, the Mexico rally last weekend was on gravel, but they commented on how they had prepared the roads by using heavy machinery to compact the surface, turning it into a concrete-like substance.

Later in the year, both the Acropolis (Greece) and Cypress rallies are run on very heavily graveled roads, almost rock-like. Quite punishing on tires and suspensions. Germany is run on tarmac and the Swedish rally is the only one run on snow.

Would love to see a WRC event here in the states; the powers that be who run the WRC say that it's possible that one could come here in the next few years, if the environment is right.

rsholland

A typical WRC car costs in the neighborhood of $400-500K, I believe.

$750K was mentioned on the WRC coverage on SPEED channel.

Bob

michaellno

Really? I must have missed that comment.

Still, better than the $200 million that Ferrari spends every year for F1.

carlisimo

Yeah that's not too bad. Except maybe for Mitsubishi. Ugh, if they go down, the WRC is cut in half after next year. Though now that Toyota and Honda are trying to go after the European market (and currently have a reputation as old people's cars), they should be more and more tempted to enter (or return, in Toyota's case).

andys120

Check out the 12 Hours of Sebring today on Speed Channel. I'm headin' for the TV right now.

andys120

Saw the return of some famous old names including TVR, Maserati and Aston-Martin. In fact A-M took the GT class win with their new DBR-9 in it's first ALMS outing. Jolly good....

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/alms/2005/seb/alms-2005-seb-eg-0209.jpg

john_324

Anyone know if any of Trans-Am series will be broadcast anywhere this season? Maybe on speed channel? In past years, races would sometimes even show up on regular tv...

I'm always surprised that it's not bigger here in this country these days...it has all the big-engine fun afforded by NASCAR, plus features some great driving skill and cool courses.

jlbl

There is several changes in F-1 this year.

Briefly, there is allowed only one set of tyres for a race and its qualifications. Less stops in the pit during the race, then. More sliding and crashes as tyres come to the race end absolutely degraded—but this depends a lot on the way in which the cars are mechanically designed and, of course, on driver's hands.

There is only one engine allowed for two races and their qualifications.

There is smaller wings and spoilers.

Qualification time is averaged from two sessions, one with the amount of fuel in the tank left as a choice for the team, the other with fuel tank compulsory filled to the most the same morning of the race.

The funniest thing is, speed has increased to new records as regards to past years. If only, Ferrari has lost the first two races to Renault, but a new Ferrari car is to be seen in next race (Bahrein).

Regards,

José

rsholland

http://www.subaru-msm.com/global/

Solberg maintains (barely) driver's point lead. Subaru currently in 3rd in terms of manufacturer's points.

Bob

jlbl

Renault won again in Bahrein F-1 Grand Prix (third win in a row). Ferrari introduced its new car, which performed very well in Michael Schumacher hands until the hydraulic system got blocked and the car went out, without brakes, in a corner. Fernando Alonso (23 years old) is at the moment the leader of the actual season. Bar-Honda, McLaren-Mercedes, Williams-BMW and Jaguar, in this order, are also performing good.

José Luis

jlbl

"performing good", that is, performing well.

I am sorry I can perpetrate this and many other injuries to the English language. My apologies. I am not a native English speaker.

JL

john_324

No worries...peruse some of these boards and you'll see much worse from those who ARE native speakers. Then try the "enthusiast" boards elsewhere on the net for real pain...

Anyone have any news on the Trans-Am series? Any hope of seeing it televised, or has NASCAR finally obliterated it for good?

xkss

News about the Trans-Am Series.

News

More News

jlbl

Next week-end will be hold the F-1 Imola race at the Republic of San Marino (Italic peninsula). Ferrari seeks to win again. It should be a nice competition between Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso (Renault), not forgetting other drivers/teams.

José

jlbl

San Marino F-1 GP was fun this week-end. Fernando Alonso (Renault) won again, second was Michael Schumacher (Ferrari) and next Jason Button (Williams-Mercedes). The new Ferrari car proved to be very effective in M. Schumacher hands. M. Schumacher started in the thirteen position because of a bad qualification session. Yet he could overtake the other cars through the race until he got behind F. Alonso with still 10 of 62 loops being left before the end. Schumacher's car had been 1 sec. per loop speeder than Alonso's until then. But F. Alonso managed to resist M. Schumacher in a very very exciting elbow-to-elbow driving through every corner until the end of the race. Next race: Montmeló, Barcelona, Spain.

In addition, there is a new racing championship, the GP-2 Series, which is intended to be a previous step for young pilots before F-1 racing. Most pilots are 19 year-old—with at least an American (Scott Speed) among them. Two GP-2 races in the same circuit and week-end in which a F-1 race is hold. All cars are akin one another but their evolution is up to the teams. V8 / 4l / 600hp Renault engines. Dallara chasis. Floor-wing effect. Bridgestone tyres. No electronics for easy driving. Really nice. You might pay attention to this event as well!

José

merc1

Where does everyone stand in the points race so far? Haven't been keeping up with F1 this season.

M

carlisimo

That race was awesome. At least I think so; didn't get to see it, just followed it on netcast radio.

How does Schumacher seem to gain positions so suddenly, usually?

jlbl

This time, by a combination of car/tyres performance, driving and strategy.

The new Ferrari seems to have been improved a lot, thought its reliability is still not as good. But if the car remains into the track until the end of the race, its performance is extraordinary. Bridgestone seemed to have made a good task with the tyres, too. Ferrari is one of the few teams who ride Bridgestone. The others ride Michelin.

Michael Schumacher's driving is also outstanding. And his will of winning seems to remain as big as when he had won no championship at all. Jason Button is part of the new generation of pilots that are there to retire M.S. Yet M.S. took over J.S. with the youngest determination in a quick and clean maneuver at a corner. On the contrary, Fernando Alonso had the ability to resist M.S. hounding along never-ending minutes. The press had kept saying, along the two weeks previous to the race, that Alonso was to be the pilot of Ferrari next year or in couple of years. Though this seems to be not true, according to Ferrari officials, Schumacher was really angry at it. Alonso has eventually proved to have the guts to resist the boss when driving 'face to face'.

Finally, the strategy. M.S. choose to fill up his car gas tank to the most. By doing this, he sacrificed his speed during the first half of the race but did not enter to refill until 4/5 more loops later than the others. In this late interval, he had few weight and no traffic on the track. He drove like a kamikaze then. After eventually refilling his tank, he was in third position and with a similar gasoline weight than the two pilots in front of him.

Best regards,
José

jlbl

I will post the classification tomorrow.

Best regards,

José

jlbl

Carlos,

What I did not know yesterday was that there are many commentaries at the specialized motor press that say that Fernando Alonso's Renault engine got one cylinder less in the last race because of mechanical fatigue that came from previous F-1 GP at Bahrein.

It is true that Alonso made very few training loops before the official qualification sessions for San Marino GP. This raised many suspicions on the state of his engine. Apparently, he and his team had even thought of getting a new engine in the car for San Marino race. If they had done so, Alonso would have started then 10 post behind the second one he gained in the qualifications. They decided to start the race with the old engine and then one cylinder was eventually gripped. Alonso and Renault remain silent on the subject.

Since Fernando Alonso is Spaniard and because of his last driving fight with Michael Schumacher, the F-1 organizators are expecting more that 125,000 spectators in Montmeló GP. They have already sold out most of the tickets. Montmeló is, with Paul Ricard in France, the circuit that is most used for all F-1 teams to perform private trainings all year round. So, all pilots know very well the track. The race should then be exciting again.

From your family name, I assume you or your ancestors come from Catalonia. A good moment to try to get one ticket and go to Barcelona!

Best regards,
José

jlbl

Here there is the points race after the first four races.

1. Fernando Alonso, Renault, Michelin. 36 pts.
2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, Michelin. 18 pts.
3. Giorgio Fisichella, Renault, Michelin. 10pts.
4. Michael Schumacher, Ferrari, Bridgestone. 10 pts.
5. Ralf Schumacher, Toyota, Michelin, 10 points
6. David Coulthard, Red Bull Racing Cosworth, 9 pts.
7. Rubens Barrichello, Ferrari, Bridgestone. 8 pts.
8. Juan-Pablo Montoya, Williams-Mercedes, 8 pts.

(Red Bull Racing Cosworth was formerly Jaguar and next year will be equipped with Ferrari engines)

Best regards,
José

carlisimo

My dad's family is from Alcoy, Alicante. So it's Valencian, but it's a surprisingly catalanista city. And they just celebrated their festes de Sant Jordi... I'm really missing out, stuck here doing homework.

But yeah, I just read about Alonso's fragile engine and that makes the race even more impressive. Marca estimated he had 15% less power because he had to limit his rpm, though it didn't say it was due to a bad cylinder. Can't find the article now, darn. Fun stuff to follow though.

jlbl

I am 50% Basque and 50% Aragonian, so I have also celebrated St George though privately since I live in Bilbao. My daughter lives in Barcelona. I decided to buy a ticket for Montmeló too late, I am afraid. She tells me it is impossible now, at least you are prepared to pay a fortune.

Best regards,
José

(I did pay a short visit to Valencia last week. It is beautifully preparing the sailing American Cup. Look forward for it.)

merc1

"BAR/Honda F1 Team Banned for Two Races

The FIA International Court of Appeal ruled on Thursday that the BAR/Honda Formula 1 team was in violation of a variety of sporting and technical regulations during the Grand Prix of San Marino on May 1, and has excluded the team from the results of that race and banned it from the next two races. In addition, it added a six-month suspension that has been suspended for one year.

The crux of the matter is the weight of the BAR/Honda car. The car was weighed by FIA stewards after the race in Imola, drained of fuel, and found to be in compliance with the 600-kg minimum-weight rule. However, a secondary tank was discovered within the main fuel tank. When that was drained, the car was 594 kg. The team maintains that the secondary tank must be full at all times in order for the engine's high-pressure fuel system to operate, but the FIA maintains that it constitutes using fuel as ballast, which is illegal.

The FIA initially charged BAR/Honda with "cheating" and "fraudulent activity," but the Court of Appeal found that the team was not guilty of cheating, just of misinterpreting the rules.

BAR issued a statement saying it was "appalled" by the decision and would seek further legal remedy. The problem is that the F1 teams are already in Barcelona for this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix (the first of the two races from which BAR/Honda is banned), and they must have the matter settled in time for Saturday qualifying if they are to make the race.

A side issue is the matter of Jenson Button's future employment. His contract states that if he does not score 75 percent of the points scored to date by the World Championship leader on August 21, his contract reverts to his former employer, Williams Grand Prix."

Source

Very interesting.

M

jlbl

Really bad for Jason Button. He is a good pilot, claiming for himself to be the actual # 1—the others fighting for the place being Michael Schumacher, Mikka Raikkonen and Fernando Alonso.

(By the way, in a previous poster of mine I mislead you by posting that Button was a Williams-Mercedes pilot, which he is not this season.)

Best regards,

José

P. D.: As for the WRC circuit, Loeb won in Sicily, Italy, and now leads over Solberg of Subaru by a few points.

ozman62

PF_Flyer

It's Speed Month! Almost time to make 800 left turns

xkss

by May 22nd

I hope Panoz beats Porsche again.

starrow68

There is also a great deal of what I'll call 2nd tier Motorsports like the ALMS for sports cars, there were some mentions, earlier and the support series like World Challenge. Then there is SCCA and NASA for club racing for those that want real racing below the professional level. Another step below that here in the States are the High Performance Driving Events which are much more available now than several years ago. I've seen just about everything on track on any given weekend and many week days. I really don't get the drivers who have to try and show that their Porsche Cayenne S can get around a road course. For the frugal set there are many GTi's and Miata's which really carry lots of speed, don't brake much, and there are plenty of $40k and up machines that are fun to watch. One of the best bangs for the buck from what I've seen is the S2000 set up with suspension and DOT-R or full race slicks. With only 240HP they are faster than most Vette's at 350hp or even some Z06's at 405hp.
Motorsports is not just a spectator sport, give it a try ... I'll bet there is a road course not too far from you. And when you realize how big your smile is when you set another personal best, I'm betting it will be more fun than watching.

Randy

How could i forget, the One Lap has been on this week, great reading ...
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=9540

jlbl

OK…, here come results & commentary.

Race
1. Kimi Raikkonen, McLaren-Mercedes, Michelin
2. Fernando Alonso, Renault, Michelin
3. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, Michelin

Championship
1. Alonso, 44 pts.
2. Trulli, 26 pts.
3. Raikkonen, 17 pts.
4. Giorgio Fisichella, Renault, 14 pts.
5. Ralf Schumacher, Toyota, 14 pts.
6. Mark Weber, Williams-BMW, 12 pts.
7. Michael Schumacher, Ferrari, 10 pts.
8. Juan P. Montoya, McLaren-Mercedes, 10 pts.

Comments

Michael Schumacher got intermediate positions through the race until his left-side (Bridgestone) tyres suffered two consecutive punctures due to previous degradation. Then Schumacher quit the race. In Montmeló most corners are high-speed corners to the right and, as result of this, left-side tyres suffered a lot. It should be remembered that only one set of tyres per race+classifications is allowed this year. Then, when a puncture happens, only this particular tyre and its other-side companion can be replaced —without additionally taking advantage of that pit stop to refill the tank.

Kimi Raikkonen drove very well a newly developed McLaren-Mercedes. Altogether, they outstandingly performed throughout qualifications and race. This forced Fernando Alonso to drive to his limit since the start. His tyres quickly got overheated and then a blister appeared in the hind-left one. Because of this, Alonso lost grip and traction within right-hand corners. It was kind of pitiful to see the bounces and bad performance of his car through these corners. Then he drove slowly 20 more laps (of a total of 66) until the tyres became both cooled and used, this causing the blister to eventually disappear. He was then in two/third/forth/five place and haunted by more pursuers. Once the tyres were levelled, Alonso continuously made fast laps until eventually he finished in second place but 27.652 sec behind Raikkonen. (Next came Trulli, 45.947 sec behind Raikkonen.) A nice race. Next one will be Monte Carlo GP.

I hope you enjoy these comments. Please let me know whether they are redundant because of any other F-1 information you may have at hand.

Best regards,
José

PS. After four GP-2-championship races, Scott Speed is in third position by points scored.

rsholland

2nd in class, and 14th overall. Not bad for a first time effort.

http://www.subaru-msm.com/global/news/050511.html

Bob