"But "performance" generally IS associated with "speed and handling"
Correct but what do I mean by performance?
Low level of body roll Firm ride Sharp steering How it Corners RWD A musical growl with acceleration(like a BMW growl)
NO GIZMOS that enhance passive driving like the Lexus VSC system, BMW's Active Frontal Steering, all automatic transmissions and cruise control. A performance car should be catered to active drivers not ones who want to feel like passengers!
I understand the Lexus has earmarked 12,000 RH vehicles for sale and they expect to sell every one of them. Far from a flop.
Depends on your definition of flop I guess, but compared to the Prius sales it is a flop. I'm just saying that in order to sell in Prius numbers, a hybrid will have to scream "different!" rather than fade into the background.
Best to agree upon the most basic performance parameters first before starting a debate. This lets us compare oranges to oranges.
Taking Dewey's lead, I propose the following as a premise for more interesting discussion:
Core Performance Characteristics 1. Precise steering with precise road feel. 2. Absolute road grip (i.e. no roll, lean, under, over steer) until pushed to envelope. 3. Precise braking. 4. Almost "endless" torque from 0MPH to 85MPH and any range in between. 5. Seemingly endless power range up to maximum rated speed. 6. Should reach FWY speed of 75MPH from 0MPH in 7 seconds or less. 7. Should reach passing speed of 75MPH anywhere from 15MPH to 35MPH in 3 seconds or less. 8. Can safely breeze through an unbanked 90-degree country lane turn at 25MPH or higher. 9. Performance on 3.5% grade should remain within 87% of spec.
Limitations: 1. This is not a race car but a public-road vehicle that everyone can drive. 2. It does not matter what technology is put in place to achieve the above characteristics. 3. A car that meets and exceeds the 9 characteristics qualifies as "performance" grade.
Discussion: Assume agreement over the 9 core characteristics and limitations above, then any car that can achieve the above characteristics will qualify. If someone can make a 18-wheeler steam powered rig that achieves all 9 characteristics, it qualifies as a performance public-road vehicle. So the technology does not matter.
To answer a general question of whether a hybrid can be a performance vehicle, the answer is obviously a general yes, someone just has to want to make one.
But if the focus is on specific models, then we need to focus on the specific car and not make general statement about a whole class to which these cars belong.
For example, can Lexus and Highlander hybrids be considered "performance" cars? the specific answer, relevant to these cars, is obviously a tentative no. Reviewers all seem to agree these 2 vehicles can achieve #4 through #7. They seem to disagree about #1 through #3 and #9. As for #8, we have to wait for other reviews that test cornering or emergency maneuver capability. Common sense also says that tall vehicles, as they are designed today, cannot escape limitations imposed by physics. There is no way the 2006 R400h and the highlange hybrid can beat a sports sedan. May be in 2008?
Thanks for expanding the criteria of what a performance car(not I said car not SUV) should be!
I did not mention the importance of hp/torque/acceleration since that is very well covered by almost every ad you see!
And no matter what marketing people may want people to think---a SUV is not a performance vehicle(Honda is even trying to promote a Odyssey Minivan as a performance vehicle). I would not even consider an upcoming hybird Porsche Cayenne as a performance vehicle! I can tell you right now that a small BMW 130i or 130d will be able to whip corners and make mincemeat out of a hybrid Porsche Cayenne.
"There is no way the 2006 R400h and the highlange hybrid can beat a sports sedan. May be in 2008?"
With 20/20 vision I know a 08 hybrid Rr00h will not beat a benchmark sports sedan. As technology improves the performance of an SUV, that same technology will have bigger impact in improving the performance of a sport sedan:
I'm kind of a nut about good brakes. I have not seen anything on the 70-0 mph braking tests of these so-called performance hybrids. It would seem logical that a car that is very fast 0-60 should be very quick going 70-0 mph. Toyota & Honda are not known for great braking. I think that is one area they skimp on. That is according to our brake man at Firestone Auto Center in San Diego. The reason I trust him is he is the only one that was able to get my ex-wife's Camry brakes to work decent. After spending close to $800 with the Toyota dealer the Firestone mechanic installed ceramic pads and the grinding noises ceased and the car would stop good. For me a performance car must have great brakes to be considered.
I definitely agree about the brake issues. I once had a Ford Explorer that had terrible brakes. I know some of the bigs SUVs from a few yrs ago had terrible brakes but they're getting better. How does your old Suburban brake? Must not be that great since it is kinda old. The Prius brakes from 60-0 in 124 feet according to some tests. That's not too bad. I also think the Lexus had good braking performance too. What I did notice is that the Honda's DID have longer stopping distances. Definitely right about that. Even look at the Acura TL (new one) that stops in 140 feet from 60 MPH!!!
Not a bad set of criteria... I especially like the addition of getting up to passing speed. I recall having a dog of a Focus as a rental car in LA a few years ago that was pretty much maxed out when traveling at freeway speeds.If I let off at all, I suddenly was a rolling roadblock and a real hazard, but keeping up with the traffic had me in a position where if I needed anything more speed or a quick acceleration, it just wasn't going to be there.
So this really defines it not as "Will Ferarri Make a Hybrid" but more along the lines of "What kind of performance can you get out of a hybrid and still keep the mileage performance gains?"
Gold star for you for giving this one a solid direction! :shades:
What can I say, it is a heavy truck, I drive it accordingly. One of the complaints I had with the HAH is the fact that Honda built a car that will go 0-60 mph in under 7 seconds and does not have a good 70-0 mph stopping distance. A fast car should stop as well as it accelerates. That includes hybrids with regenerative braking.
The positive side is people buying hybrids seem more interested in getting good mileage rather than going fast. Owning a hybrid or high mileage vehicle of any fuel type seems to encourage hypermiling at some level.
In general all Hondas & Acuras don't have the braking consistent with their performance. I am impressed by the improvement in the Prius brake system in their latest version. The few that I have driven don't give you a sensation that their are two forces slowing you down (the regen and the discs). Haven't driven the RH yet and I hope it's braking performance can handle the 4500 lb weight especially going down a long grade.
"What kind of performance can you get out of a hybrid and still keep the mileage performance gains?"
Hybrids may accomplish the performance criteria established above, BUT hybrids cannot beat the best performance cars powered by internal combustion engines. And I know I am repeating this mantra over and over again but here it goes again:
Hybrid technology creates heavier cars than cars powered solely with internal combustion engines and that is the hybrid disadvantage in terms of performance.
If hybrids are powered by a battery that is no bigger than aaa duracells then it may be possible. But by then there most likely will be hydrogen performance cars.
Some may want a hybrid that can compete with conventional performance vehciles, but as you pointed out, the weight issue is simply going to prevent that. I think the criteria set out in the list above is a good measuring stick though. "Performance" is going to be a relative term. Much like a Sentra SE-R is more of a performance vehicle than a standard Sentra, but I wouldn't really lump it in with the picture in my head when the terms "sports cars" or "performance vehicle" is mentioned.
has always been a relative term. That is, a vehicle which has dynamic limits that exceed the norm of the day sufficient to be noteworthy. Few performance vehicles of 50 years past would stand out even among 'garden variety" cars of today. In the "bad ole days" of the 70s (remember the "Pintang"?), the BMW 2002 tii was a quick car yet its 9.something 0-60 would be called a slug today.
There are no absolute, unchanging measures of performance, and I doubt that a hybrid will be THE highest performance vehicle in all dimensions, but only the lack of will and market economics will prevent the development of "performance" hybrids.
Daysailer had a great point about ever changing criteria. The BMW example made the point.
Not long ago, mfr proudly badged their cars with a tag that read "Fuel Inject" or "FI" or "I". Now, we assume fuel injection under every hood. Can we assume a high-torque battery under every hood in 10 years? Battery technology is not new, it has been used in everything from hand tools to submarines. It is finally "small" enough to fit in a passenger car. Its instantaneous torque is very attractive to all drivers.
May be the interesting question is not whether a hybrid can achieve performance but whether it can maintain performance. We know that this technology, with a fully charged battery, can achieve 65MPH from dead stop in 6.8 to 7.3 seconds pushing a 4600-lb vehicle (RX 400h). It is even faster than its lighter sibling the 330. The problem is what happens when the battery loses its charge? The heavier 400h only has a 206-HP engine while its lighter sibling the 330 has a 230-HP engine. On a twisting mountain road with only the driver, the 206-HP version will lose its speed performance if its batteries cannot do any work. The batteries become useless and are just deadweight.
It will be fun and informative to speculate how manufacturers can address this problem so that "hybrid" technology becomes mainstream in 5 years.
It's the amazingly high torque levels that helps the Toyota hybrids acceleration. Hybrids are sort of like turbos in terms of generating impressive torque.
I think that what cdptrap is referring to is that at peak acceleration in a hybrid, 100% of the ICE output is going into moving the vehicle PLUS the batteries are being depleted as the electric motor has kicked in. If you KEEP your foot in it (not allowing some of the engine output to go back into recharging the batteries), then the batteries can be depleted over time.
I would imagine this event to be relatively rare due to the overall capacity of the batteries and the fact that we rarely drive at WOT for extended periods of time (although the issue was a concern for C&D when they were attempting to set a speed record for Hybrids at Bonneville using a Prius).
"Heavier weight causes more friction for motion! "
You are kind-of sort-of on the right track.
Netwon's Law's of Motion:
Newton's second law of motion explains how an object will change velocity if it is pushed or pulled upon.
Firstly, this law states that if you do place a force on an object, it will accelerate, i.e., change its velocity, and it will change its velocity in the direction of the force.
Secondly, this acceleration is directly proportional to the force. For example, if you are pushing on an object, causing it to accelerate, and then you push, say, three times harder, the acceleration will be three times greater.
Thirdly, this acceleration is inversely proportional to the mass of the object. For example, if you are pushing equally on two objects, and one of the objects has five times more mass than the other, it will accelerate at one fifth the acceleration of the other.
Actually it is the mass rather than friction that couses the acceleration slowness.
Now how about I rephrase my prior statement to the following :
It is the added mass of weight from a bulky battery , an additonal electrical motor and hybrid components that will cause a hybrid's acceleration to be slower than an equivalent car that is powered solely by an internal combustion engine. And let us not forget how added mass can negatively affect the handling dynamics of any vehicle.
How's that for a Newtonian interpretation of hybrid performance?
Check this link for more if any of you doubt you can have your cake and eat it too. www.L3research.com and San Diego State University engineers have designed and built a 260Hp Biodiesel Hybrid sports car that not only gives performance, but also runs on a renewable fuel! www.biodiesel.org.
What about a hybrid that is projected to get 100+mpg highway, 125mph top speed, 0-60 in 8.1sec, the size and handling of a Miata, and requires no plug in. However it will not be cheap.
Is there a market for this type of car? Can this break the idea that performance and hybrids dont mix?
Comments
Correct but what do I mean by performance?
Low level of body roll
Firm ride
Sharp steering
How it Corners
RWD
A musical growl with acceleration(like a BMW growl)
NO GIZMOS that enhance passive driving like the Lexus VSC system, BMW's Active Frontal Steering, all automatic transmissions and cruise control. A performance car should be catered to active drivers not ones who want to feel like passengers!
Oh and did I mention speed?
Depends on your definition of flop I guess, but compared to the Prius sales it is a flop. I'm just saying that in order to sell in Prius numbers, a hybrid will have to scream "different!" rather than fade into the background.
Taking Dewey's lead, I propose the following as a premise for more interesting discussion:
Core Performance Characteristics
1. Precise steering with precise road feel.
2. Absolute road grip (i.e. no roll, lean, under, over steer) until pushed to envelope.
3. Precise braking.
4. Almost "endless" torque from 0MPH to 85MPH and any range in between.
5. Seemingly endless power range up to maximum rated speed.
6. Should reach FWY speed of 75MPH from 0MPH in 7 seconds or less.
7. Should reach passing speed of 75MPH anywhere from 15MPH to 35MPH in 3 seconds or less.
8. Can safely breeze through an unbanked 90-degree country lane turn at 25MPH or higher.
9. Performance on 3.5% grade should remain within 87% of spec.
Limitations:
1. This is not a race car but a public-road vehicle that everyone can drive.
2. It does not matter what technology is put in place to achieve the above characteristics.
3. A car that meets and exceeds the 9 characteristics qualifies as "performance" grade.
Discussion:
Assume agreement over the 9 core characteristics and limitations above, then any car that can achieve the above characteristics will qualify. If someone can make a 18-wheeler steam powered rig that achieves all 9 characteristics, it qualifies as a performance public-road vehicle. So the technology does not matter.
To answer a general question of whether a hybrid can be a performance vehicle, the answer is obviously a general yes, someone just has to want to make one.
But if the focus is on specific models, then we need to focus on the specific car and not make general statement about a whole class to which these cars belong.
For example, can Lexus and Highlander hybrids be considered "performance" cars? the specific answer, relevant to these cars, is obviously a tentative no. Reviewers all seem to agree these 2 vehicles can achieve #4 through #7. They seem to disagree about #1 through #3 and #9. As for #8, we have to wait for other reviews that test cornering or emergency maneuver capability. Common sense also says that tall vehicles, as they are designed today, cannot escape limitations imposed by physics. There is no way the 2006 R400h and the highlange hybrid can beat a sports sedan. May be in 2008?
should be!
I did not mention the importance of hp/torque/acceleration since that is very well covered by almost every ad you see!
And no matter what marketing people may want people to think---a SUV is not a performance vehicle(Honda is even trying to promote a Odyssey Minivan as a performance vehicle). I would not even consider an upcoming hybird Porsche Cayenne as a performance vehicle! I can tell you right now that a small BMW 130i or 130d will be able to whip corners and make mincemeat out of a hybrid Porsche Cayenne.
"There is no way the 2006 R400h and the highlange hybrid can beat a sports sedan. May be in 2008?"
With 20/20 vision I know a 08 hybrid Rr00h will not beat a benchmark sports sedan. As technology improves the performance of an SUV, that same technology will have bigger impact in improving the performance of a sport sedan:
As I said before it all boils down to physic:
Heavier weight causes more friction for motion!
So this really defines it not as "Will Ferarri Make a Hybrid" but more along the lines of "What kind of performance can you get out of a hybrid and still keep the mileage performance gains?"
Gold star for you for giving this one a solid direction! :shades:
What can I say, it is a heavy truck, I drive it accordingly. One of the complaints I had with the HAH is the fact that Honda built a car that will go 0-60 mph in under 7 seconds and does not have a good 70-0 mph stopping distance. A fast car should stop as well as it accelerates. That includes hybrids with regenerative braking.
The positive side is people buying hybrids seem more interested in getting good mileage rather than going fast. Owning a hybrid or high mileage vehicle of any fuel type seems to encourage hypermiling at some level.
Hybrids may accomplish the performance criteria established above, BUT hybrids cannot beat the best performance cars powered by internal combustion engines. And I know I am repeating this mantra over and over again but here it goes again:
Hybrid technology creates heavier cars than cars powered solely with internal combustion engines and that is the hybrid disadvantage in terms of performance.
If hybrids are powered by a battery that is no bigger than aaa duracells then it may be possible. But by then there most likely will be hydrogen performance cars.
There are no absolute, unchanging measures of performance, and I doubt that a hybrid will be THE highest performance vehicle in all dimensions, but only the lack of will and market economics will prevent the development of "performance" hybrids.
Not long ago, mfr proudly badged their cars with a tag that read "Fuel Inject" or "FI" or "I". Now, we assume fuel injection under every hood. Can we assume a high-torque battery under every hood in 10 years? Battery technology is not new, it has been used in everything from hand tools to submarines. It is finally "small" enough to fit in a passenger car. Its instantaneous torque is very attractive to all drivers.
May be the interesting question is not whether a hybrid can achieve performance but whether it can maintain performance. We know that this technology, with a fully charged battery, can achieve 65MPH from dead stop in 6.8 to 7.3 seconds pushing a 4600-lb vehicle (RX 400h). It is even faster than its lighter sibling the 330. The problem is what happens when the battery loses its charge? The heavier 400h only has a 206-HP engine while its lighter sibling the 330 has a 230-HP engine. On a twisting mountain road with only the driver, the 206-HP version will lose its speed performance if its batteries cannot do any work. The batteries become useless and are just deadweight.
It will be fun and informative to speculate how manufacturers can address this problem so that "hybrid" technology becomes mainstream in 5 years.
Pardon my ignorance, but do hybrid batteries lose their charge frequently or would such events be rare?
I would imagine this event to be relatively rare due to the overall capacity of the batteries and the fact that we rarely drive at WOT for extended periods of time (although the issue was a concern for C&D when they were attempting to set a speed record for Hybrids at Bonneville using a Prius).
stevedebi, "The Great Battery Debate" #229, 9 May 2005 7:11 pm
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"Correct but what do I mean by performance?
Low level of body roll
Firm ride
Sharp steering
How it Corners
RWD
A musical growl with acceleration(like a BMW growl) "
You have just descitbed a GO-KART!
Thee are so many goals for a Hybrid. Most aren't driven towards perfromance, so the Hybrids bigots try to redefine what performance really is
YMMV cruis'n in 6th and manualy happy! :shades: ,
MidCow
"Heavier weight causes more friction for motion! "
You are kind-of sort-of on the right track.
Netwon's Law's of Motion:
Newton's second law of motion explains how an object will change velocity if it is pushed or pulled upon.
Firstly, this law states that if you do place a force on an object, it will accelerate, i.e., change its velocity, and it will change its velocity in the direction of the force.
Secondly, this acceleration is directly proportional to the force. For example, if you are pushing on an object, causing it to accelerate, and then you push, say, three times harder, the acceleration will be three times greater.
Thirdly, this acceleration is inversely proportional to the mass of the object. For example, if you are pushing equally on two objects, and one of the objects has five times more mass than the other, it will accelerate at one fifth the acceleration of the other.
Actually it is the mass rather than friction that couses the acceleration slowness.
Cheers,
MidCow
Now how about I rephrase my prior statement to the following :
It is the added mass of weight from a bulky battery , an additonal electrical motor and hybrid components that will cause a hybrid's acceleration to be slower than an equivalent car that is powered solely by an internal combustion engine. And let us not forget how added mass can negatively affect the handling dynamics of any vehicle.
How's that for a Newtonian interpretation of hybrid performance?
Cheers
Jonathan Baty
Now, in 2009, can a hybrid be a performance vehicle?
Actually, you might put most hybrids into this category (depending on how loos you want to make the definition of performance).
Is there a market for this type of car? Can this break the idea that performance and hybrids dont mix?