For what it's worth - I'm a guy who has always babied the engine, somewhat more than the manual recommends - never push it until the first oil change - and I'm also a guy who always beats the EPA numbers.
Current CRV EPA 21/26 - Actual - 23/28 Current Civic EPA 30/38 - Actual 33/42
On the other hand I've never measured, or cared about really - total power output. I always assumed that if I was getting great mileage that my motors were happy.
Another point - might be harder to get any warrantee satisfaction if you didn't go by the break in instructions.
Exactly my point. It's on who you ask. Most people will tell you different stuff from person to person. I trust the people who actually work on the vehicles I've owned.
If you ask someone at the dealership, they'll tell you that before you ever get the car the engines are run to do some breaking in, and they are pretty much broken in at 20 miles...the mileage listed in the manual is only there as an extra precaution. If you ask someone from a non-dealership that works on Hondas/Acuras exclusively, they'll tell you that your break-in period is about 200-400 miles. Well, I bought my car with 212 miles on it. It's the last of the '07's. Pretty sure someone has wound it up a bit before I ever got it. Either way, the break-in mileage from the dealership and Honda/Acura shops is already past. So, I can only conclude that the 2000-3500 mile thing is old-school thought or just being anal-retentive.
My school of thought is ride the car moderately the first 20-50 miles...changing RPMs a lot. After that, wind it up 2-3 times from 50-400 miles. After that, it's broken in.
"I trust the people who actually work on the vehicles I've owned."
I have to ask. Are the individuals that work on your vehicles qualified automotive engineers? Are they more educated and experienced when it comes to the care and feeding of a modern intermittent combustion engine than the engineers that designed it?
If you answer "yes" to the above, then good on yer. That said, my bet is that 99.99% of all service technicians are less qualified than your average automotive engineer, and as such are a very poor source for information. Personally, if it came down to a disagreement between a service technician and the official recommendation from the manufacturer, I’ll side with the manufacturer.
The first question doesn't matter. Look at the manual if you think that's the bible...
The mileage on it when I test-drove it was right below 200. That same day I put a deposit down on it so no one else would be driving it. Two days later, I bought it with 201 miles on it.
About the first 30 miles after I purchased, it was all variable RPM's between 1000 and 4000...as it was mostly city driving. From about 230 to 500, it was variable RPM's between 1000 and 5000 as I have a 50 mile commute to/from work where the speed limit changes no less than 10 times.
500 to 600 was more variable driving across town (as the dealership is 19 miles from my house), and I took 2 trips back and forth to get extra stuff installed as it came in.
From 600 to the mileage now (771 last I checked), I've taken it up to 7000-7500 RPMs 2-3 times.
I think whatever damage was perceived to be done (by some people) was already done when I bought it. I'm of the school of thought that you:
1. Vary the RPMs a lot early on, but stay below redline (which I did) 2. Don't change the initial oil until 3500-3700 3. Near the end of the initial "break-in mileage", take it up to 7000-7500 rpm's a few times...not flooring it, but get up there and back down.
Everything that I've read (from people with some credentials), and from Acura/Honda mechanics that I know personally says babying the engine for a couple thousand miles won't do much good. You need to vary the RPM's with a certain range a LOT, and NOT change the initial oil Honda puts in until it's life is up. The only thing the manual says remotely about RPMs is not accelerating quickly. You can take a car up and down the RPMs without accelerating quickly. "Winding it up" does not imply taking it off the line as hard/quickly as possible.
williams is right, when you buy a brand new car, you want to put a load on the engine. the best is accelerating (not full throttle) and letting the rpms wind down, do it a few times. this will create the tight seal and maintain the best performance. There are some incredibly good tuner shops around here like ground zero. I called all of them to see how they break in there high horse power cars. they do accel decel runs, then around 200 miles they change the oil to clear out any small particles that would normally set in the engine, then dont redline it till after 500 miles. with a factory car like a civic Si, changing the oil after a couple hundred miles probably isnt necessary. you could change it after 3000 and be fine. But in the beginning, with low miles, you dont want to just baby it and stay at one rpm. going on a long freeway drive is not ideal. You want to use a wide range power/rpms, but dont need to floor it or redline it. wait till your after 500 miles to do that.
Well lets address the Civic. If I look at my manual, it says SPECIFICALLY to let the factory fill run the FULL OEM recommended OCI: 10,000 miles,. It further cautions against shorting the intervals unless one is REALLY in the severe category. It further goes on to say that MOST folks ARE in the NORMAL category. (despite a lot of dealers and folks tendency to say they are in the severe category)
To address the tuner shops, the emphasis is undoubtably on high hp, high torque,etc. Most would probably laugh in your face if you broached the subject of say getting 400,000 miles with your beefed up "hot rod."
Can anyone give me an idea of the difference in gas mileage between the si and ex coupe if they were driven comparably? I certainly like the Si more, but I'm not sure it's worth a seven mpg hit. If you drove an si lightly, could you get comparable mileage to the ex?
The first question doesn't matter. Look at the manual if you think that's the bible
well...with regards to a honda vehicle, it kinda is isn't it?
Everything that I've read (from people with some credentials), and from Acura/Honda mechanics that I know personally says babying the engine for a couple thousand miles won't do much good.
is it just me...or has NO ONE ever said ANYTHNING about the break in period lasting a couple THOUSAND miles? You shouldn't have anything to worry about as for the most part, you did what you had to do for the first 500 miles or so. So don't worry about it. But no one is talking about babying for 2k!!
there is a guy in an si sedan thread that claims to get around 38 i belive. I say impossible, but i guess he lives where it never gets more than moderatley hot and he never uses the si to its potential.
says SPECIFICALLY to let the factory fill run the FULL OEM recommended OCI: 10,000 miles,
you mean that the first oil change is suppossed to be at 10k? mine sure as heck wasnt! the maintanence minder told me to go much sooner, at around 51/2 k.
I just love the extra features on the SI, such as the limited slip dif, 17" wheels, spoiler, sixth gear etc. I'd like to be able to drive it like a normal person and get low 30's and then really open it up on the weekends. Have my cake and eat it too, sort of thing.
I like your thinking on that. As I said in a much earlier post, if my wife would drive a stick, I'd have bought the Si. I test drove one and it's just a fun car. The only drawback I can see is that the only interior color you have to choose from is black. Been there and done that and it was a major pain to keep clean.
Can anyone give me an idea of the difference in gas mileage between the si and ex coupe if they were driven comparably?
Well, I don't mean this to sound smart-aleck, but the EPA test is set up just for this - cars tested in VERY controlled conditions to get an idea of how their mileage will compare.
I certainly like the Si more, but I'm not sure it's worth a seven mpg hit. If you drove an si lightly, could you get comparable mileage to the ex?
Here's something you ought to reflect on before making your decision:
If you drive the Si in a manner in which you are going to exceed EPA figures, the EX driven the similarly will exceed EPA figures in the same way. If you are going to buy an Si and drive it very lightly so as to match the 1.8L 140 hp Civic EX's economy, you might as well buy the EX as you aren't going to be using the extra power the Si delivers.
I've posted it in a couple other forums already, but here I am again... I bought an Si Sedan about a month ago, and currently have ~2600 miles on it. Around town with about 40/60 hwy/city driving, I normally get around 30-31 mpg. When I pull out the stops and start up with the high revs/fast accel's, it goes down to between 23-25 mpg. However, a bit after I bought it, I drove my car from Oregon to Colorado, about a 1600 mile trip (if I remember right). On that trip, I averaged between 35-37 mpg at each of the 6 or 7 fuel stops I made.
With the Si, if you're relatively gentle with it and keep the RPMs between 2.5k-3.5k, you'll do pretty well. No, it's not comparable to the EX, where you'll get an extra 7+ mpg, but for the level of fun that you can have with the Si and still get 27-30 mpg, I'd say that's pretty freakin' sweet.
2007 EX/AT Sedan - 4 months old with about 2800 miles on the clock now (purchased with 11 on it).
Last week I took my nephews on a bit of a road trip around Washing D.C., Baltimore and eastern Virginia. Over something just less then 500 miles, we averaged 41.43 mpg, ~95+% highway, on cruise control most of the time, mostly between 55 and 70 mph, with the A/C cranked high the whole time (3 people plus luggage). Oh, and we managed to avoid any true stop-and-go traffic jams - worst we hit was a bit of 40-45mph cruising on I495.
That's my best mileage yet, but also my first almost all highway cruisingnumber.
"I just bought a 07 civic LX. I wonder what kind of gas I should use. Is regular good enough? Thanks"
Is it good enough? Yes, but only if you want the best performance and economy from your engine. If you want to degrade both, you can run either mid-grade or premium. ;-)
No, using premium fuel can actually harm your engine as it can cause extra deposits to form inside your combustion chambers. The best fuel for your engine, and the best fuel from a mileage perspective is exactly what the manufacturer recommends, which in this case is Regular fuel.
You'd just be spending more money for zero gain (performance or any other benefit). The Civic Si needs premium because of it's higher compression ratio engine, but it's just money thrown away to put anything other than regular in a Civic LX/DX/EX.
grad this is so true! why buy an si if you are driving for gas mileage? if you apply the same driving habits that get you great mileage with your si, to an regular ex civic; imagine what you'd get! almost hybrid like mileage!
i know someone mentioned getting the si over the ex because of the 17 inch wheels, well you can slap some honda 17's on the ex as well.
But stuff such as the limited slip differential? thats made for canyon carving! not exaclty frugal driving people! if you bought the si for its performance features USE THEM!
Didn't mean to be insulting. By buy it I meant it sounded reasonable to me. If your getting 38 at 70 mph with the AC running, that's excellent. At 70 our EX only gets about 41-42, so that is a small difference. I think I confused two posts. I thought someone was trying to decide which model to buy.
I actually thought it was an interesting line of discussion. I think the orginal poster was waxing about having the best of both worlds, sort of have the cake and eat it too.
But if you look at the factors that count, it really shows that it not the case. I mean you still can commute in either or both vehicles, shoot I am sure you can race a non SI.
But anyway a small example; I can get a set of tires for my Honda Civic (oem or slightly better for 50-75 per tire) 200-300. I wonder what a replacement set would run for the SI.
on the Ex, is that it effectively changes the gear ratio which could hurt performance. Also the speedometer would be showing you are going slower, and traveling less distance than you actually are.
I would think the Si is geared a bit different from the EX!
"Problem with changing to larger tires on the Ex, is that it effectively changes the gear ratio which could hurt performance. Also the speedometer would be showing you are going slower, and traveling less distance than you actually are."
What? Who said anything about changing to larger diameter tires?
The previous comments were about changing to larger wheels, either Honda wheels (which are offered as a dealer installed option) or aftermarket wheels. FWIW, the stock 205/55 R16 tires (which fit on a 16" rim) have an outer diameter of about 24.9", while the 215/45 R17 tires (for the larger 17" rims) have an outer diameter of about 24.8". Sounds pretty darned close of you ask me.
Me too (thought it was interesting.) And think about how much fuel would be saved if people who wanted a performance (type) care bought an Si instead of a real muscle car. I mean how much does that performance help when drivin down the interstate to grandmas. Power and economy on demand. It's a good option.
I wonder what is the fastest 0-60 time for any car that can realistically get 30, 35 and 40 mpgs?
but to answer your question, car and driver got an lx civic manual to go 0-60 in 7.7 seconds; pretty darn close to some civic si numbers that some reviewers have commented on.
but thats kind of a moot point; as an lx civic does not handle nearly as well as an si; i don't think ANYONE should ever buy an si for speed; do it for the love of a honda gearbox and great handling.
As an aside, on the gearbox and engine and mpgs....I've been taking the "old road" (back way) to come back from our cabin in the mtns. It takes an hour longer than the interstate IF the interstate is flowing, and the same amount of time if the interstate is jamming up.
Two great things about the old road - slower speeds yield AMAZING MPG (30 in CRV, 45 in Civic). The second thing...on the two lane you can really use that gear box and high revving VTEC to great advantage for passing. Double clutch down shifting from 5th to 4th or 3rd if necessary. Both cars are good at it, but the Civic is So SWEET. You never feel like you are close to the limit. Great combo of MPGs and passing power on demand.
motor trends and car and driver show 6.3 0-60 sprint, which is pretty big difference, but if you step up to the quarter mile the si will be way ahead 14.8 in the si.
I must say tho, 7.7 in a regular civic is actually pretty damn good, way better than i thought. ive driven my moms auto ex, and im sure it does a 9-10 second 0-60, hehe.
i just bought a used 2004 civic hybrid...drove it home about 30 miles...reset it to zero andf when i got home i averaged 53.9 mpg...this is gonna be fun trying to get 60......lol
my civic ex auto did it in the high nines, low tens as well!
the thing about getting those kinds of times in the si is that you really have to ring it out; there are other performance cars that do that run without having to beat on the transmission, but then again, they don't have 8k redlines either!
hey harvey, just to throw a wrench into your thinking... Look up the "Tesla" on google... something equivalent to approx. 100 mpg, and 0-60 in about 3.2.... IF I remember that right... hahahahahhaha
For the strictly electric, it seems to me that an around town, a range of 250 miles is a HUGE obstacle.
To even be competitve to a Civic, (13.2 gal at between 25-44 mpg epa of 29/38) we are talking 325-572 miles range. Indeed if you need to travel farther beyond the electrical range, you are dead in the water (so to speak) for app 24 hours. (or the length of time it takes to fully charge the batteries)
While the Honda Diesel will probably come to the US markets in the form of the Honda Accord platform, a Civic TDI with 46-66 (est only) mpg would put that range at 572-858 miles. (13.2 gals)
Yup! I am SWAGGING a tad (from a much heavier) VW Jetta TDI, which gets 48-52 mpg in heavy commute traffic where a (much ligher)Civic gasser gets 38-42 mpg.
So the ranges (13.2 gal/14.5 gals)are 686-744 miles/ 494-546 miles.
Yea but like a family like ours has two cars. My wife's car just goes to and from work all the time. Mine is the tripper. We could save a ton of gas and environment with electric cars.
Comments
Current CRV EPA 21/26 - Actual - 23/28
Current Civic EPA 30/38 - Actual 33/42
On the other hand I've never measured, or cared about really - total power output. I always assumed that if I was getting great mileage that my motors were happy.
Another point - might be harder to get any warrantee satisfaction if you didn't go by the break in instructions.
M
If you ask someone at the dealership, they'll tell you that before you ever get the car the engines are run to do some breaking in, and they are pretty much broken in at 20 miles...the mileage listed in the manual is only there as an extra precaution. If you ask someone from a non-dealership that works on Hondas/Acuras exclusively, they'll tell you that your break-in period is about 200-400 miles. Well, I bought my car with 212 miles on it. It's the last of the '07's. Pretty sure someone has wound it up a bit before I ever got it. Either way, the break-in mileage from the dealership and Honda/Acura shops is already past. So, I can only conclude that the 2000-3500 mile thing is old-school thought or just being anal-retentive.
My school of thought is ride the car moderately the first 20-50 miles...changing RPMs a lot. After that, wind it up 2-3 times from 50-400 miles. After that, it's broken in.
dunno where 'babying the engine the first 1000miles' came from, as that is much longer than honda recommends the break in period to be.
I have to ask. Are the individuals that work on your vehicles qualified automotive engineers? Are they more educated and experienced when it comes to the care and feeding of a modern intermittent combustion engine than the engineers that designed it?
If you answer "yes" to the above, then good on yer. That said, my bet is that 99.99% of all service technicians are less qualified than your average automotive engineer, and as such are a very poor source for information. Personally, if it came down to a disagreement between a service technician and the official recommendation from the manufacturer, I’ll side with the manufacturer.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The mileage on it when I test-drove it was right below 200. That same day I put a deposit down on it so no one else would be driving it. Two days later, I bought it with 201 miles on it.
About the first 30 miles after I purchased, it was all variable RPM's between 1000 and 4000...as it was mostly city driving. From about 230 to 500, it was variable RPM's between 1000 and 5000 as I have a 50 mile commute to/from work where the speed limit changes no less than 10 times.
500 to 600 was more variable driving across town (as the dealership is 19 miles from my house), and I took 2 trips back and forth to get extra stuff installed as it came in.
From 600 to the mileage now (771 last I checked), I've taken it up to 7000-7500 RPMs 2-3 times.
I think whatever damage was perceived to be done (by some people) was already done when I bought it. I'm of the school of thought that you:
1. Vary the RPMs a lot early on, but stay below redline (which I did)
2. Don't change the initial oil until 3500-3700
3. Near the end of the initial "break-in mileage", take it up to 7000-7500 rpm's a few times...not flooring it, but get up there and back down.
Everything that I've read (from people with some credentials), and from Acura/Honda mechanics that I know personally says babying the engine for a couple thousand miles won't do much good. You need to vary the RPM's with a certain range a LOT, and NOT change the initial oil Honda puts in until it's life is up. The only thing the manual says remotely about RPMs is not accelerating quickly. You can take a car up and down the RPMs without accelerating quickly. "Winding it up" does not imply taking it off the line as hard/quickly as possible.
Well said!
bwilliam13,
It's your car! Whatever.
Kip
To address the tuner shops, the emphasis is undoubtably on high hp, high torque,etc. Most would probably laugh in your face if you broached the subject of say getting 400,000 miles with your beefed up "hot rod."
Unless you are talking about driving the Si lightly and wailing on the EX.
No way will the Si get 45. Best I've heard of is 35.
Anyone else?
M
well...with regards to a honda vehicle, it kinda is isn't it?
Everything that I've read (from people with some credentials), and from Acura/Honda mechanics that I know personally says babying the engine for a couple thousand miles won't do much good.
is it just me...or has NO ONE ever said ANYTHNING about the break in period lasting a couple THOUSAND miles? You shouldn't have anything to worry about as for the most part, you did what you had to do for the first 500 miles or so. So don't worry about it. But no one is talking about babying for 2k!!
you mean that the first oil change is suppossed to be at 10k? mine sure as heck wasnt! the maintanence minder told me to go much sooner, at around 51/2 k.
But it begs the question - why not just buy the EX - drive it the same way and get 45?
I always find myself wanting the car (tire, whatever) that does everything.
Well, I don't mean this to sound smart-aleck, but the EPA test is set up just for this - cars tested in VERY controlled conditions to get an idea of how their mileage will compare.
I certainly like the Si more, but I'm not sure it's worth a seven mpg hit. If you drove an si lightly, could you get comparable mileage to the ex?
Here's something you ought to reflect on before making your decision:
If you drive the Si in a manner in which you are going to exceed EPA figures, the EX driven the similarly will exceed EPA figures in the same way. If you are going to buy an Si and drive it very lightly so as to match the 1.8L 140 hp Civic EX's economy, you might as well buy the EX as you aren't going to be using the extra power the Si delivers.
With the Si, if you're relatively gentle with it and keep the RPMs between 2.5k-3.5k, you'll do pretty well. No, it's not comparable to the EX, where you'll get an extra 7+ mpg, but for the level of fun that you can have with the Si and still get 27-30 mpg, I'd say that's pretty freakin' sweet.
Last week I took my nephews on a bit of a road trip around Washing D.C., Baltimore and eastern Virginia. Over something just less then 500 miles, we averaged 41.43 mpg, ~95+% highway, on cruise control most of the time, mostly between 55 and 70 mph, with the A/C cranked high the whole time (3 people plus luggage). Oh, and we managed to avoid any true stop-and-go traffic jams - worst we hit was a bit of 40-45mph cruising on I495.
That's my best mileage yet, but also my first almost all highway cruisingnumber.
I just bought a 07 civic LX. I wonder what kind of gas I should use. Is regular good enough? Thanks
Is it good enough? Yes, but only if you want the best performance and economy from your engine. If you want to degrade both, you can run either mid-grade or premium. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
second, you don't have to 'buy' it, it really happened.
it was with light a/c on cruise around 70 mph. the epa is 36mpg.
so i was right in line with that.
i know someone mentioned getting the si over the ex because of the 17 inch wheels, well you can slap some honda 17's on the ex as well.
But stuff such as the limited slip differential? thats made for canyon carving! not exaclty frugal driving people! if you bought the si for its performance features USE THEM!
Spoilers? again, easily had on the ex.
But if you look at the factors that count, it really shows that it not the case. I mean you still can commute in either or both vehicles, shoot I am sure you can race a non SI.
But anyway a small example; I can get a set of tires for my Honda Civic (oem or slightly better for 50-75 per tire) 200-300. I wonder what a replacement set would run for the SI.
I would think the Si is geared a bit different from the EX!
Kip
What? Who said anything about changing to larger diameter tires?
The previous comments were about changing to larger wheels, either Honda wheels (which are offered as a dealer installed option) or aftermarket wheels. FWIW, the stock 205/55 R16 tires (which fit on a 16" rim) have an outer diameter of about 24.9", while the 215/45 R17 tires (for the larger 17" rims) have an outer diameter of about 24.8". Sounds pretty darned close of you ask me.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I wonder what is the fastest 0-60 time for any car that can realistically get 30, 35 and 40 mpgs?
but to answer your question, car and driver got an lx civic manual to go 0-60 in 7.7 seconds; pretty darn close to some civic si numbers that some reviewers have commented on.
but thats kind of a moot point; as an lx civic does not handle nearly as well as an si; i don't think ANYONE should ever buy an si for speed; do it for the love of a honda gearbox and great handling.
As an aside, on the gearbox and engine and mpgs....I've been taking the "old road" (back way) to come back from our cabin in the mtns. It takes an hour longer than the interstate IF the interstate is flowing, and the same amount of time if the interstate is jamming up.
Two great things about the old road - slower speeds yield AMAZING MPG (30 in CRV, 45 in Civic). The second thing...on the two lane you can really use that gear box and high revving VTEC to great advantage for passing. Double clutch down shifting from 5th to 4th or 3rd if necessary. Both cars are good at it, but the Civic is So SWEET. You never feel like you are close to the limit. Great combo of MPGs and passing power on demand.
Ok I'm done now.
I must say tho, 7.7 in a regular civic is actually pretty damn good, way better than i thought. ive driven my moms auto ex, and im sure it does a 9-10 second 0-60, hehe.
the thing about getting those kinds of times in the si is that you really have to ring it out; there are other performance cars that do that run without having to beat on the transmission, but then again, they don't have 8k redlines either!
oh yea... please ignore the $100k price tag... :P
To even be competitve to a Civic, (13.2 gal at between 25-44 mpg epa of 29/38) we are talking 325-572 miles range. Indeed if you need to travel farther beyond the electrical range, you are dead in the water (so to speak) for app 24 hours. (or the length of time it takes to fully charge the batteries)
While the Honda Diesel will probably come to the US markets in the form of the Honda Accord platform, a Civic TDI with 46-66 (est only) mpg would put that range at 572-858 miles. (13.2 gals)
So the ranges (13.2 gal/14.5 gals)are 686-744 miles/ 494-546 miles.
Torque is outstanding too. Acceleration is better than the 1.8 liter! (8.6 secs to 100 kph or 62 MPH).
Should be a fun car to drive.