Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

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  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    in Alabama runs about $.05 cheaper than regular unleaded. I have no idea why.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    bumpy: I don't think that huge improvement is typical. Does that diesel really get a real-world 50 mpg? Probably in the 40s.

    Plus you pay more to acquire them in the first place, how much more does the diesel cost? A couple of grand? That's buys a lot of fuel.

    That car isn't available in the US, but the Liberty CRD is, and it costs a whole bunch more than the V6, which is quicker. CR didn't get very good mileage, either. There were gas-powered competitors in the same issue with much, much lower annual fuel costs.

    There is potential, but it didn't look like the Liberty CRD was meeting that full potential.

    -juice
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Cars like the Jetta & Golf TDI get consistently over 50 MPG driving at highway (75 MPH +). My Passat gets high 30s on the highway. It gets high 20s just running my 2-3 mile errands. The Passat diesel has a MSRP $200 over the cheapest 4 cylinder and costs less than the V6. It has more torque than the V6. Once you have driven one you are sold. My wife has not driven 10 miles in her LS400 since we bought the Passat. I start it pull into the driveway dust it off and it goes back in the garage. Not as nice to drive as the Passat. Plus a 1/3rd less mileage on Premium gas. As for the CRD it has had some problems. Most are getting equal mileage to the RX400h at 1/2 the price. Plus they do well off road. They should get the bugs out by next MY. I don't think they expected to sell so many of them. 50% more than projected.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The cost of the diesel engine on a CRD is about $850, once you strip away all the mandatory items you are forced to buy with it. On a VW Passat the diesel engine option is only $250 while on the Mercedes CDI it is $575 and it gets in the mid-30's on the road and has as much torque as a 5.7L hemi. Also, it is faster from 0 - 60 than its gasolene counterpart.

    As for the CRD, the reviews in terms of performance, I have seen 0 - 60 times for the CRD actually beat the gas version. On 1/4 mile times, at least in one article the CRD beat the gas version by 0.2 seconds. Both were in the seventeens, not particularly fast to begin with.

    As to diesels getting 50+ mpg in the real world, they can and do. I had a 1981 Isuzu diesel and on long highway trips got 51 mpg at 60 mph. The worst highway was 43 mpg doing about 80 mph. On my CRD, I have gotten close to 29.5 mpg highway at about 63 mph. I only have 2550 miles on it and once broken in, I expect a bit better than 30 mpg.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I drove the Benz, very quick, but you definitely feel a lag there. And the accelerator is like an on/off switch.

    Different, not necessarily better, than an E320 (driven back-to-back).

    But a lot more fuel efficient, no doubt.

    -juice
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    As to the accelerator being like an on and off switch, you are experiencing the wonder of drive by wire. Takes a while to get use to. Had something similar in my CRD.

    As to the lag, I believe Benz does not use a VGT turbo. I have such on the CRD and lag is very slight until warmed up, then it is nil.
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    WHEN they're running. VW has a terrible dealer network and continues to build unrealiable (but substantial) cars. I also doubt you can get 50mpg at 75 mph. Not a chance.
  • deezuldeezul Member Posts: 1
    "WHEN they're running. VW has a terrible dealer network and continues to build unrealiable (but substantial) cars. I also doubt you can get 50mpg at 75 mph. Not a chance."

    You need to go out and drive one on an extended test then. In two years of some very high miles, my Jetta TDi has never left me stranded... and I didnt get it new. :surprise: As to the dealer network, you just have to find a good one. I have three or so around me. But all stealers are good and bad, regardless of the make - thats not a fair comment.

    As for the "I also doubt you can get 50mpg at 75 mph. Not a chance." - you're wrong. If I can find the will power to keep my car going 70-75, and not let it run where its happier at around 75-85, i can easily reach 48 to upwards of my best of 53 mpg. yes, it is possible. Diesels actually return real world fuel economy, unlike hybrids that drop considerably when driven like cars are driven, i.e. not with the cruise set on 55 for hours on end. serious city stop and go, some high speed jaunts on the interstate, and such. I actually drove down from Knoxville, TN to Port Canaveral, FL last summer, and managed it all before the low fuel light came on. And that was driving from 73-80 mph. It resulted in me having on of my best tanks, an even 50.something miles per gallon. About 740 miles and only 14.8 or so gallons of the 'stinky' dino oil. Lets see a prius or another hybrid do that at those speeds. good luck. And this isnt a fluke... check out the economy and trip reports at www.tdiclub.com to see much, much more of the same. I think its time that America opens its eyes to the only engine that right now, at this moment has the potential to forever break us from our dependancy of foreign oil... Diesel, or better yet, BIODiesel. Check it out, its pretty promising...
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I believe I read in Popular Mechanics and C & D that they actually ran a test of the TDI Jetta vs. a Prius . The Prius got better mileage than the Jetta. I'd like to take one for an extended test drive but the dealers are so unfriendly, I doubt I'd find one willing to make the sacrifice. I too am weary about VW reliability. I am glad some people here have had luck, but CR continues to give VW black dots (BAD) vs. RED dots (EXCELLENT) for most Asian products. When Honda or Toyota bring a diesel to market, I'd bite. No VWs in my garage. I can't possibly have any down time.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    the dealers are so unfriendly

    It must be the area you live in. The VW dealer here in San Diego that I get service from has gone the extra mile. They gave me a rental car while I got service. I did not even buy the car from them. Try that with a Toyo dealer. No loaner and your car is sent to the back lot. Toyota does NOT get good marks for service.
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    Actually I'd have to disagree with that as Edmunds agrees with me too. VW service is the worse in the nation! They can't even sell the Phaeton because smart folks know that VW service sucks. BTW... do you know that my family's Toyota dealer gives loaners out? I guess you wouldn't know that because you only believe what you want to believe. The good thing is that Toyota normally doesn't have to give loaners because their cars are so reliable. Not so for VW. Look at their record. It's abysmal. Maybe that's why you're selling it so soon. LOL!!!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Maybe that's why you're selling it so soon.

    The only reason I would sell it is because people in CA are screaming to get diesel cars that get rated mileage. Unlike the hybrids, that have to be driven like an old lady would drive to get close to EPA ratings. I will buy another diesel when I sell this one. Maybe the E320 CDI as I like that car very much also. My wife wants a Beetle with the TDI to run errands around town.
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    So I see you practice what you preach. I thought you like to keep cars? I happen to drive my Prius quite briskly and I get 50 MPG. Matter of fact, if you drive a Prius like an old lady (similar to how you drive), you'd get less mileage. The Prius likes to be driven briskly. If you buy the Mercedes CDI you'll be over spending by 10 grand like you say the Lexus folks do. As usual, you're all over the map grice.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you buy the Mercedes CDI you'll be over spending by 10 grand like you say the Lexus folks do.

    How do you figure that? I get a vacation in Germany. Own the car for a year or 7500 miles whichever comes first and make a few bucks selling it to a discriminating buyer in CA. If I was so unfortunate to have to commute every day. Especially a long commute. I would put the Prius on the list. Along with several other high mileage vehicles. I use a vehicle less than most people. I use them for errands 2-3 miles to the store, library etc or for fun drives in the country and out to the desert. I have owned my hybrid PU for two months and have put less than 300 miles on it. I would buy a Smart ForTwo CDI if they were sold in the states. I sat in one up in Victoria two weeks ago and thought it would be a great little car for running errands.
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    You still end up LOSING money. I guess you never heard of something called depreciation. How do you propose to get to Germany? Be careful... if you thought VW was bad,,,, wait until you see Mercedes. Great service, but they are not as reliable as they used to be. Let's see... 300 miles in two months. Hmm.. that means your CDI will see four years until you reach 7500 miles. Yeah... your posts do make sense after all. :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree that the dealer network is lacking, though of course there may be individual dealers that are exceptions. And reliability is still sub-par (while interior quality is well above par).

    It's a shame, because the combination of the two is what scares people like me off (you might require frequent visits to an unfriendly service bay).

    Fix one or the other and it might be tolerable for folks like me.

    -juice
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    I absolutely LOVE the build quality of VWs. I have owned 2 Audis which are virtually the same as a VW with a little extra cream. Both Audis I owned were wonderful cars but very expensive to maintain after the warranty expired. The never stranded me. I hope VW improves their dealer network. I would consider owning one if they did. I'd gamble and hope I get a good copy.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lean-Burn Technology Vehicles: Qualified "lean burn" vehicles are passenger cars and trucks with internal combustion engines that use a direct injection of a fuel mix with a higher-than-normal percentage of air. Some new diesel cars that will soon be introduced in the U.S. will qualify. Many car enthusiasts (including me) are anxiously awaiting the new crop of diesels, which are already well-accepted in Europe. They will achieve far better fuel economy without sacrificing much performance (unlike some hybrids, which, on steep hills, are often passed by oxcarts).

    The lean-burn tax credit amounts are the same as those for hybrid vehicles. So the minimum combined credit amount for a lean burn vehicle that qualifies for both the fuel economy and conservation credits will be $650, while the maximum combined credit will be $3,400. Which vehicles will qualify and how much the credits will be for them remains to be seen. Stay tuned.


    http://www.smartmoney.com/taxmatters/index.cfm?story=20050818
  • zacharyazacharya Member Posts: 71
    Does anyone know what new diesels will be available for tax credits? My wife is going to need a new car soon for her commute. I use the Prius for my commute, but we'd like to add a diesel to the family. We're selling our truck as we simply refuse to pay these high gas prices.
  • njexpressnjexpress Member Posts: 170
    Since the bill says "The credits kick in for new vehicles put to use on or after Jan. 1.", I am guessing it would- Any thoughts? Also, what other vehicles would qualify?
    Thanks!
    --njexpress
  • aitorbkaitorbk Member Posts: 1
    Well, here in Europe we have a good vw dealer network. But please keep in mind that turbo diesel engines have some hidden expenses. As you may know, most new european cars are diesel (more than 70% this month), and we know of these expenses. Every 60.000 or 80.000 miles you have to change an electronic component that measures the air flow. The price ranges from 100$ to 300$ depending on make (with the mercedes part being the most durable and least expensive!) . And small turbo charged diesel engines need turbocharger replacement at least every 100.000 miles.
    But trust me when I tell you that diesel engines are way more powerful than gasoline ones!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I just talked to the Internet sales where I bought my Passat TDI in April. She has a wait list on all models of TDI. She asked if I wanted to sell my TDI. She said I would have no trouble making 2-3 grand over the price I paid in April. They are getting harder to find than the hybrids. If they had known what was going to happen with gas prices they would have not been so generous with their below invoice sales.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Shop around, fitzmall.com for instance has Passat TDIs in stock and they're still be sold for around invoice price.

    -juice
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Used a total of /132.70 gal=46.68 mpg. VW Jetta TDI. AC on 99% of the time. Had to navigate in the metropolitain areas of San Jose, Los Angeles, Riverside, Phoenix,Tucson, El Paso, San Antonio, Houston, New Orleans, Talahassee, Jacksonville, Orlando.DFW, Alburquerque Flagstaff.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Checked fitzmall. They have one stripped 2005 Passat GL TDI sedan for over invoice. No Beetles at all. And no other diesel VWs. Back to the wait list for a lime green Beetle GLS TDI with leather. My understanding is they cannot keep up with the TDI demand in Europe. They make more money on their cars over there than here. So as usual we get the dregs of the automobile world.
  • rbarkleyrbarkley Member Posts: 14
    I am a traveling salesman and drive 40,000 miles every year. The gas prices are getting to me! I am thinking of buying a Mercedes CDI. I have driven it and like it, but I am coming from a BMW 740il with 207,000 miles. It's been a great car. Before the BMW I owned a Jetta TDI and put 70,000 on it in 2 years, it was very inexpensive to run, but I wanted something bigger & safer.
    Does anyone know if the 2006 CDI will qualify for the new tax deduction, and if so how much will it be?
    Another question, I hear the VW Passit is coming out with a new diesel in 2007, is it worth waiting for or by the time it comes maybe the demand will be so high the price will out weight the advantage.
    Any help or knowledge would be appreciated.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It looks like they will not get any tax credit until they can pass emissions. That should come about in late 2006 with the mandated ULSD. I am not sure on the accuracy of this chart. It is the only one I have found that shows all the vehicles currently being considered for the credit.

    http://www.aceee.org/transportation/hybtaxcred.htm
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They must have sold a few since I looked, they had at least 3-4 Passat TDIs when I had looked.

    Diesel around here is 30-50 cents cheaper per gallon right now, and that's compared to regular. Usually it's about the same price as premium, so I bet that perked up interest in a few folks that were on the fence.

    -juice
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    My next car is going to be a VW TDI. I can not for the life of me figure out why more auto makers are not turning to the diesel engine in the US market. I also believe that US auto makers had better get off the pot and develop diesel passenger cars or loose an even larger market share. VW is going to win the diesel market in the US unless someone else jumps in soon.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Two answers - we don't have low-sulfur diesel yet, and...

    Emissions laws pretty much disallow them in Cali.

    -juice
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    we don't have low-sulfur diesel yet

    1. CA has ULSD readily available. Every ARCO station that has diesel, sell BP ECD-1, the low sulfur diesel that is mandated for 2006.

    2. CARB antiquated emissions standards have only made the VW TDI vehicles a premium used commodity. People in CA are paying over MSRP for used VW TDIs with 7500 miles. To show how stupid CARB is. I can buy the International CXT monster diesel truck to use as a commuter and cannot buy a VW diesel bug that gets 50 MPG. California may be the worst run state in the nation. Not even the Terminator can clean out that worthless bunch of bureaucrats.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would also agree!

    Purely from a philosophical point of view, if available I will /would not replace a road car anymore with a gasser and given the choice/choices would opt for another diesel. All superlatives and disadvantages aside , diesels are uniquely correct/adapted for our highway systems. With the new fuel and emissions technology leveling out that side of the equation, it actually acomplishes what CA pines and whines about, but in reality doesnt do: USE less fuel per mile drivien than gassers and cheaper also!!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The other thing is given the costs of say a Civic Hybrid vs conventional Civic, the premium paid for the hybrid will be difficult, if not impossible to recoup or B/E given conventional average mileage of American motorists. (In my own case a Civic VP at 12500 vs a Hybrid at 20,000 or 7500 dollars more. When you add in the potential additional cost of 2000 for batteries...)

    When you consider the POTENTIAL costs to replace batteries that need replacing, and the resultant potential market discount for used hybrids, the factors at this time are almost overwhelming.

    Also while one has to applaud the potential effects of using less fuel, the fact of the matter is the hybrid system (as currently conceived and executed) can not use alternate fuels (such as bio diesel) that is uniquely almost 100% domestically producted. This is of course addressing the mantra of "less dependence on foreign oil".
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "California may be the worst run state in the nation. Not even the Terminator can clean out that worthless bunch of bureaucrats."

    Uh, thats "Governator" to those of us who haven't (yet) left "Kal-ee-fornia".
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's stick to the automotive and not light up any political fires! Thanks!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Two articles in San Jose Mercury News, Sunday, 11 Sept 05, Business " DRIVERS DOWNSIZED" pg 1E. and pg 2E "Fuel-economy ratings overblown, magazine says"

    The first article among others, lists the Honda Cvic Hybrid at city 45-48 mpg, highway 47-51 mpg.

    I have been getting a range of 35-41 mpg with a Honda Civic VP (NON hybrid) with a cost difference of app 7500 between the two, and no costly batteries to replace.

    I have been getting a range of 44-62 mpg with a VW Jetta TDI (EPA 42/49) with a 400 dollar cost difference between the 2.0 and 200 dollar cost diffence over a 1.8T Jetta gassers. It rates the Jetta gassers at city 21-38 highway 29-46 mpg.

    The second article :

    ..."The magazine said its tests showed discrepancies in mpg in 90% of the hundreds of 2000-2006 model year vehicles it has tested.

    This includes hybrids, sports utilities and everything inbetween. It tested a Honda Civic Hybrid and got 26 mpg in city driving. The EPA was 48 mpg..."
    The upshot of the second article: ..."many models cost hundreds of dollars more a year to operate than their owners thought, when they bought them."

    So for those who like a little data behind the verbage... So out of the 5 vehicles I had to chose from both a conventional gasser Civic and a diesel Jetta TDI made the most amount of sense.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think one thing Hybrids enjoy is a premium image. Toyota was smart to offer things like NAV and Bluetooth, because it has given the Prius a premium image. It's cool to buy one, while an Echo would only get you laughed at.

    TDIs aren't exactly cheap, I'm sure an Echo or maybe even a base Corolla/Vibe would have a lower TCO than a Jetta TDI. But again, the Jetta is pretty nice inside and fortunately does not have to compete with those entry-level economy cars.

    Think about how little it would cost to own/operate an Echo, especially a CPO one with a 6/100 warranty. They probably cost 1/3rd the price of a hybrid. Yet noone is lining up.

    -juice
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "TDIs aren't exactly cheap, "

    Actually you touched upon some of the myriad of (variable and scenarios. While you probably didn't envision this answer (variable and scenarios), the TDI has the potential for value over the 250k to 500k mileage range and is almost a steal at 1m miles. :(:)

    Up against VW Jetta 2.0-1.8T, the BE is from 50-60k to 3k miles.Up against the Honda Civic, the numbers are 12,500 vs 18,000 (35 mpg vs 47 mpg for discussion sake) So 5500 buys a lot of unleaded fuel, 64,167 miles @ 3 dollar a gal. Right away one has to ascertain if mileage will be normal 12-15k per year. If it is BE is a hard row to hoe, 5.35 years to 4.3 years.

    However the TDI is sweet for those doing over 15k up to 60k per year.

    I wont bore the thread with the math. Those interested would only need data to input. For me, the upshot is app 28k per year. In my case, I have broken even with the 2.0, and have long since saved money over the 1.8T. However, I would get neither engine nor probably a VW if it were not for the TDI.

    On the other side, the less quantifiable qualities are the TDI is WAY more fun to drive than the Honda.

    We got the Honda Civic for a host of reasons, but chief among them is for a plain vanilla wrapper commute it is hard to beat the attributes of a Honda Civic with one requirement of automatic transmission.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    How many have gotten that far? I mean what %, probably not most...

    Honestly? By then I'd expect something would go wrong that wasn't worth fixing, not necessarily engine related, but VWs aren't exactly known for their reliability.

    I would buy a diesel for the range, but I would not be assuming nor even expecting it to last a quarter million miles. Not unless I drove like a traveling salesman.

    Any how, I just see a lot of TDI owners give up on their cars long before their engines wear out, on this and other forums.

    -juice
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I think the unsaid thing is the gasser oems have really sold us a bill of goods in that most of us (irrationally in my opinion) look to gassers being Cinderella/Cinderfella's well before 100k.Once the sales job was done, then they scaled back the parts to act the part. :(

    For me, going 250k and beyond is almost a no brainer. I ran gassers, a 1970 VW app 250k and in those days, the first clutch lasted app 120k miles. It cost all of 125 dollars to replace and I sold the car for non related reasons: no AC while living in MIAMI FL???!! I also ran a 87 TLC as a client and delivery vehicle for app the same. While I should have kept it, again I sold it for unrelated reasons.
    So if I keep my current pace, we are talking 8.62 years. This is about the average time an average Am keeps a car in the passenger vehicle fleet anyway. So for me AVERAGE TIME is what I am talking about. So if the average mileage is 12-15k then obviously 29k is higher.

    Another yardstick is currently there is only between 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet is diesel. Most of these are diesel light trucks. So as one can project/see, % and mean wise when a TDI goes 250k and above it does not represent the average of gassers which go 250k So for example if you have 10 Honda Civics and 10 VW Jetta TDIs going 250k and beyond, by virture of its way smaller population, the 10 VW Jetta TDIs are statistically more significant than the 10 Honda Civics.
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    A friend of mine, who is new car sales person at a local Ford store, told me that a diesel option is all but certain in the 2007 Focus. He said he was told that Ford’s only requirement was that it must be certified for sale in all 50 states. My friend told me that a lot of people have asked about a diesel Focus but the sales staff has been told not to talk about it because management is afraid that their 2006 Focus sales will tank.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    For Ford the diesel Focus is a logical extention, in that I read somewhere the Focus was developed and built with the European market in mind. Natually they offer diesel Focus' in Europe, as fully 45-50% of the passenger vehicle fleet is diesel.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good point, I think the A/C compressor, wheel bearings, and water pump are all engineered to last 1 day past the end of the warranty. ;)

    For some reason diesel fuel around me costs more than other regions and isn't widely available. They are replacing diesel bus fleets with alt-fuel models, so if anything diesel demand might be dropping.

    The euro Focus still hasn't come here, it would be bizarre to have the diesel engine on the last generation platform.

    -juice
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Your example really transitions right into an interesting one. Is it cheaper to repair or replace AC compressor, wheel bearings water pump, etc. etc., or get a "new car" when you already know those and other parts are manufactured to last one day past the end of the warranty.???

    One extreme might be: folks that NEED to sell a Turbo Porsche, simply because the oil change interval is coming up. :(:)

    Extremities aside, the TDI has a much longer design life than a gasse and or gasser hybrid. It is 20,000 hrs, but you will have to really look for the needle in the haystack to find any direct reference to this. So if your average speed is 50 mph then that equates to 1,000,000 miles. This is not to say a gasser/gasser hybrid can not and will not do 250k and beyond but most folks could really care ( as you have pointed out) pass usually 100k. So for example I already know I will change the water pump at 100k when I need to do the timing belt. Pretty simple logic, that tune up will make the engine good to go to 200k and so forth and so on. Given the design of the engine (not real happy with the A4 design, but oh well) it is cheaper to do preventative R/R on a water pump for if it starts to leak say at 150k miles you have to do the same steps to R/R a water pump and chances the resultant leakage will damage the timing belt you just changed already. So it is better to do preventative R/R.

    So the first reaction might be this is a suicide design foisted upon unsuspecting folks, but renewal every 100k is a good thing. I mean how many folks with timing CHAINS have it looked at and replaced?? Normally folks dont keep it that long (200-250 is usually how long they last) and the first most folks even hear about an internal timing chain, let along know about it, is when it breaks!!??

    A spin off is because I have that mileage horizon, I decided to use the best oil ( in my opinion of course) (Delvac 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck and SUV 5w40) In the process of reviewing data such as VOA'a, OCI s UOA's, I can safely run 25,000 mile oil change intervals. OEM type oil filters are designed with a 30k mile lifespan in mind. So as you can see, I wouldn't want to push the oil filter's life over the edge!?? :) So over a mileage horizon of say 500,000 miles I can expect 20 oil and filter changes vs someone who might be more short term oriented and wants to do 3k intervals for a total of 167 oil and filter changes.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think you're a typical buyer, even diesel buyer. ;)

    -juice
  • blymagisterblymagister Member Posts: 4
    For the record, from (www.fueleconomy.gov):

    2005 Prius: EPA is 55; 41 users avg. 48
    2004 Prius: EPA is 55; 24 users avg. 47.1
    2003 Prius: EPA is 48; one user says 43.3
    2002 Prius: EPA is 48; 4 users avg. 46.1
    2001 Prius: EPA is 48; 4 users avg. 45.8

    2005 Civic Hybrid 5M: EPA is 48; 3 users avg. 42.9
    2005 Civic Hybrid CVT: EPA is 48; 7 users avg. 40.6
    2004 Civic Hybrid 5M: EPA is 48; 3 users avg. 51.1
    2004 Civic Hybrid CVT: EPA is 47; 2 users avg. 44.1
    2003 Civic Hybrid CVT: EPA is 48; 4 users avg. 43.1

    2005 Accord Hybrid 5A: EPA is 32; 8 users avg. 30.2

    2005 Insight 5M: EPA is 63; 3 users avg. 83.7
    2004 Insight 5M: EPA is 63; 2 users avg. 77.4
    2003 Insight 5M: EPA is 64; 2 users avg. 68
    2002 Insight 5M: EPA is 64; 1 user says 86
    2001 Insight CVT: EPA is 56; 1 user says 56.8
    2001 Insight 5M: EPA is 64; 1 user says 60.1
    2000 Insight 5M: EPA is 65; 1 user says 65.8

    2005 Escape 2WD: EPA is 33; 5 users avg. 30.1
    2005 Escape 4WD: EPA is 31; 12 users avg. 28.1

    DIESELS

    2005 Golf 5M: EPA is 41; 2 users avg. 44.1
    2005 Golf 5A: EPA is 36; 2 users avg. 38.4
    2004 Golf 5M: EPA is 41; 2 users avg. 40.8
    2004 Golf 5A: EPA is 36; 1 user says 39.6
    2003 Golf 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 45.5
    2002 Golf 5M: EPA is 45; 3 users avg. 44.4
    2001 Golf 5M: EPA is 45; 2 users avg. 51.5
    2001 Golf 5A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 39.5

    2005 Jetta 5M: EPA is 39; 3 users avg. 40.7
    2005 Jetta 5A: EPA is 36; 3 users avg. 40.9
    2004 Jetta 5M: EPA is 41; 4 users avg. 44.3
    2004 Jetta 5A: EPA is 36; 1 user says 41.1
    2003 Jetta 5M: EPA is 45; 10 users avg. 48.6
    2002 Jetta 5M: EPA is 45; 2 users avg. 48.3
    2002 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 2 users avg. 38
    2001 Jetta 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 48
    2001 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 41
    2000 Jetta 5M: EPA is 45; 3 users avg. 45.3
    2000 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 41.5
    1999 Jetta 5M: EPA is 43; 2 users avg. 52
    1998 Jetta 5M: EPA is 43; 1 user says 44.3

    2004 Beetle 6A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 44.4
    2002 Beetle 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 46
    2001 Beetle 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 40.3
    2000 Beetle 5M: EPA is 45; 2 users avg. 43.2
    1999 Beetle 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 43

    Derived from user ratings:

    Highest rated Hybrid: Honda Insight
    Lowest rated Hybrid (in this list): Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD (Chevy Silverado, outside this list)

    Highest rated 4 door Hybrid Sedan: 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid 5M @ 51.1 mpg
    Lowest rated 4 door Hybrid Sedan: 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid CVT @ 40.6 mpg

    Most overrated Hybrid: Prius
    Most underrated Hybrid: Insight

    Highest rated Diesel: 1999 Jetta 5M @ 52 mpg

    Before we write off hybrids, I think there are some applications where this technology is quite useful. Take the Accord Hybrid. This is a car which has the ability to get to sixty in around 6.5 seconds, but can also achieve around 30 mpg - this is a perfect blend of performance and economy, something that Honda has always been the best at (example: VTEC).

    As for applying the technology to small commuter economy cars which sell to those who only want to achieve the best fuel economy, it seems that in this segment, hybrid technology either needs to make leaps, or people will soon realize that other alternatives (like Diesel) match and sometimes exceed hybrid economy at a (slightly) better price point. The bottom line is that for pure economy, at this point, hybrids are kind of a so-so solution.

    But then again, the 2006 Civic Hybrid will only price about $1,000 more than the EX - both cars having the same amenities (sic sunroof) - so the Hybrid will be a more appealing option for those who want a little bit more convenience, but not to those who are just looking for a car that is the definition of "economical". I wouldn't write off people that drive hybrids as "greenies", "liberals', etc... I think these people (in the case of a Prius) go to the lot to buy a new car like a Camry, and they come across the Prius - a car which is priced roughly the same as a similarly equipped Camry - and they drive off the lot with a fresh looking car that gets great gas mileage - and it does.

    I wouldn't call a car like the Honda Insight "economical" at its price point, which is just under 20K, but I would like to point out that when you buy a car like an Insight, you are kind of reallocating where your money is going - instead of Royal Dutch Shell, that money is now going to Honda; because of the car's extra cost, one isn't really saving money on gas (it depends on what kind of car he/she would have bought), but is giving that money to the car company instead. And there's nothing wrong with that, since geopolitics are kind of very highly influenced by the petroleum industry - and that's a whole different ball of yarn.

    Even Honda admits that the first hybrid is it's "image" car, which is why they're still making it. If you talk to the majority of people who drive Insights, they will tell you how much they love their car - talk to a guy who owns a Corvette, he'll probably say the same thing. But nobody asks the Corvette guy if his car is ligitimate, do they?

    I think Americans value horsepower as the almighty factor in buying a car - this is probably why BMW and Honda don't vend diesel cars over here, and now with this Hybrid stuff (which promises better "pep" than Diesels), this probably won't happen for a while now, unless the manufacturers shift their hybrid technology to moderate to high-performance cars and SUV's and focus on diesel for economy.

    Just remember that what is produced by the auto industry is a reflection of what most Americans want; hence, if anything is to be changed, it needs to happen in the people's minds first.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826


    The point you might have overlooked is even Honda and Prius have greater HP than the TDI 1.9 L that is common to the Golf, Beetle, Jetta which you have cited. My 2003 Jetta TDI is rated at 90 HP. Even my 2004 Honda Civic VP has MORE HP @ 115 hp. It even gets less mpg during the same commute 35-41 mpg vs 48-52 mpg for the Jetta TDI. So is that an indication that diesels have the "moral" high ground here? :)
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    2005 Prius HSD: EPA is 55; 41 users avg. 48
    2004 Prius HSD: EPA is 55; 24 users avg. 47.1

    2005 Golf 5A: EPA is 36; 2 users avg. 38.4
    2004 Golf 5A: EPA is 36; 1 user says 39.6
    2001 Golf 5A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 39.5

    2005 Jetta 5A: EPA is 36; 3 users avg. 40.9
    2004 Jetta 5A: EPA is 36; 1 user says 41.1
    2002 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 2 users avg. 38
    2001 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 41
    2000 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 41.5

    2004 Beetle 6A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 44.4

    That auto-trans data makes a very convincing case that the dramatically cleaner (PZEV) hybrid is also much more efficient too.

    Forget about what the ideal-condition EPA values indicate.

    That real-world data says it all.

    JOHN
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And I agree that while both are fantastic the hybrids tend to do slightly better (high 40s vs. low 40s). Though we might be splitting hairs at this point, it would depend on which fuel was cheaper in your region, averaged out over time.

    Definitely agree with John about the emissions part, though, and that should not be completely ignored. That's a big limitation on diesels right now (CA for instance).

    I'm not sure about diesels coming in at a better price point. Prius starts at just over $21k, Civic hybrid auto around the same ball park. A Jetta TDI automatic essentially costs the same. 2006 Civics will have higher prices, but so would the next Jetta TDI.

    Basically the hyper-efficient sedans with automatic cost around $21.5k.

    I don't see a significant price advantage in any direction, unless you want a manual (Civic or TDI would cost less) or you prefer a Golf over a Jetta. And you'd end up with a Golf IV - Europe has had the Golf V for a long time.

    -juice
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Of all the folks I know that have Toyota Prius's, NONE have gotten theirs for anywhere NEAR the 21k you mentioned. In the land of environmental correctness and nirvana (Berkeley, CA), the cheapest I have heard was 25k!! All were higher (not including tax doc and dmv fees)

    The 2004 Civic Hybrid was quoted to me at 20k and this was before, during, and after I bought a Civic VP at 12,500.

    The 2003 Jetta TDI was 18,000.
This discussion has been closed.

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