By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Plus you pay more to acquire them in the first place, how much more does the diesel cost? A couple of grand? That's buys a lot of fuel.
That car isn't available in the US, but the Liberty CRD is, and it costs a whole bunch more than the V6, which is quicker. CR didn't get very good mileage, either. There were gas-powered competitors in the same issue with much, much lower annual fuel costs.
There is potential, but it didn't look like the Liberty CRD was meeting that full potential.
-juice
As for the CRD, the reviews in terms of performance, I have seen 0 - 60 times for the CRD actually beat the gas version. On 1/4 mile times, at least in one article the CRD beat the gas version by 0.2 seconds. Both were in the seventeens, not particularly fast to begin with.
As to diesels getting 50+ mpg in the real world, they can and do. I had a 1981 Isuzu diesel and on long highway trips got 51 mpg at 60 mph. The worst highway was 43 mpg doing about 80 mph. On my CRD, I have gotten close to 29.5 mpg highway at about 63 mph. I only have 2550 miles on it and once broken in, I expect a bit better than 30 mpg.
Different, not necessarily better, than an E320 (driven back-to-back).
But a lot more fuel efficient, no doubt.
-juice
As to the lag, I believe Benz does not use a VGT turbo. I have such on the CRD and lag is very slight until warmed up, then it is nil.
You need to go out and drive one on an extended test then. In two years of some very high miles, my Jetta TDi has never left me stranded... and I didnt get it new. :surprise: As to the dealer network, you just have to find a good one. I have three or so around me. But all stealers are good and bad, regardless of the make - thats not a fair comment.
As for the "I also doubt you can get 50mpg at 75 mph. Not a chance." - you're wrong. If I can find the will power to keep my car going 70-75, and not let it run where its happier at around 75-85, i can easily reach 48 to upwards of my best of 53 mpg. yes, it is possible. Diesels actually return real world fuel economy, unlike hybrids that drop considerably when driven like cars are driven, i.e. not with the cruise set on 55 for hours on end. serious city stop and go, some high speed jaunts on the interstate, and such. I actually drove down from Knoxville, TN to Port Canaveral, FL last summer, and managed it all before the low fuel light came on. And that was driving from 73-80 mph. It resulted in me having on of my best tanks, an even 50.something miles per gallon. About 740 miles and only 14.8 or so gallons of the 'stinky' dino oil. Lets see a prius or another hybrid do that at those speeds. good luck. And this isnt a fluke... check out the economy and trip reports at www.tdiclub.com to see much, much more of the same. I think its time that America opens its eyes to the only engine that right now, at this moment has the potential to forever break us from our dependancy of foreign oil... Diesel, or better yet, BIODiesel. Check it out, its pretty promising...
It must be the area you live in. The VW dealer here in San Diego that I get service from has gone the extra mile. They gave me a rental car while I got service. I did not even buy the car from them. Try that with a Toyo dealer. No loaner and your car is sent to the back lot. Toyota does NOT get good marks for service.
The only reason I would sell it is because people in CA are screaming to get diesel cars that get rated mileage. Unlike the hybrids, that have to be driven like an old lady would drive to get close to EPA ratings. I will buy another diesel when I sell this one. Maybe the E320 CDI as I like that car very much also. My wife wants a Beetle with the TDI to run errands around town.
How do you figure that? I get a vacation in Germany. Own the car for a year or 7500 miles whichever comes first and make a few bucks selling it to a discriminating buyer in CA. If I was so unfortunate to have to commute every day. Especially a long commute. I would put the Prius on the list. Along with several other high mileage vehicles. I use a vehicle less than most people. I use them for errands 2-3 miles to the store, library etc or for fun drives in the country and out to the desert. I have owned my hybrid PU for two months and have put less than 300 miles on it. I would buy a Smart ForTwo CDI if they were sold in the states. I sat in one up in Victoria two weeks ago and thought it would be a great little car for running errands.
It's a shame, because the combination of the two is what scares people like me off (you might require frequent visits to an unfriendly service bay).
Fix one or the other and it might be tolerable for folks like me.
-juice
The lean-burn tax credit amounts are the same as those for hybrid vehicles. So the minimum combined credit amount for a lean burn vehicle that qualifies for both the fuel economy and conservation credits will be $650, while the maximum combined credit will be $3,400. Which vehicles will qualify and how much the credits will be for them remains to be seen. Stay tuned.
http://www.smartmoney.com/taxmatters/index.cfm?story=20050818
Thanks!
--njexpress
But trust me when I tell you that diesel engines are way more powerful than gasoline ones!!
-juice
Does anyone know if the 2006 CDI will qualify for the new tax deduction, and if so how much will it be?
Another question, I hear the VW Passit is coming out with a new diesel in 2007, is it worth waiting for or by the time it comes maybe the demand will be so high the price will out weight the advantage.
Any help or knowledge would be appreciated.
http://www.aceee.org/transportation/hybtaxcred.htm
Diesel around here is 30-50 cents cheaper per gallon right now, and that's compared to regular. Usually it's about the same price as premium, so I bet that perked up interest in a few folks that were on the fence.
-juice
Emissions laws pretty much disallow them in Cali.
-juice
1. CA has ULSD readily available. Every ARCO station that has diesel, sell BP ECD-1, the low sulfur diesel that is mandated for 2006.
2. CARB antiquated emissions standards have only made the VW TDI vehicles a premium used commodity. People in CA are paying over MSRP for used VW TDIs with 7500 miles. To show how stupid CARB is. I can buy the International CXT monster diesel truck to use as a commuter and cannot buy a VW diesel bug that gets 50 MPG. California may be the worst run state in the nation. Not even the Terminator can clean out that worthless bunch of bureaucrats.
Purely from a philosophical point of view, if available I will /would not replace a road car anymore with a gasser and given the choice/choices would opt for another diesel. All superlatives and disadvantages aside , diesels are uniquely correct/adapted for our highway systems. With the new fuel and emissions technology leveling out that side of the equation, it actually acomplishes what CA pines and whines about, but in reality doesnt do: USE less fuel per mile drivien than gassers and cheaper also!!!
When you consider the POTENTIAL costs to replace batteries that need replacing, and the resultant potential market discount for used hybrids, the factors at this time are almost overwhelming.
Also while one has to applaud the potential effects of using less fuel, the fact of the matter is the hybrid system (as currently conceived and executed) can not use alternate fuels (such as bio diesel) that is uniquely almost 100% domestically producted. This is of course addressing the mantra of "less dependence on foreign oil".
Uh, thats "Governator" to those of us who haven't (yet) left "Kal-ee-fornia".
The first article among others, lists the Honda Cvic Hybrid at city 45-48 mpg, highway 47-51 mpg.
I have been getting a range of 35-41 mpg with a Honda Civic VP (NON hybrid) with a cost difference of app 7500 between the two, and no costly batteries to replace.
I have been getting a range of 44-62 mpg with a VW Jetta TDI (EPA 42/49) with a 400 dollar cost difference between the 2.0 and 200 dollar cost diffence over a 1.8T Jetta gassers. It rates the Jetta gassers at city 21-38 highway 29-46 mpg.
The second article :
..."The magazine said its tests showed discrepancies in mpg in 90% of the hundreds of 2000-2006 model year vehicles it has tested.
This includes hybrids, sports utilities and everything inbetween. It tested a Honda Civic Hybrid and got 26 mpg in city driving. The EPA was 48 mpg..."
The upshot of the second article: ..."many models cost hundreds of dollars more a year to operate than their owners thought, when they bought them."
So for those who like a little data behind the verbage... So out of the 5 vehicles I had to chose from both a conventional gasser Civic and a diesel Jetta TDI made the most amount of sense.
TDIs aren't exactly cheap, I'm sure an Echo or maybe even a base Corolla/Vibe would have a lower TCO than a Jetta TDI. But again, the Jetta is pretty nice inside and fortunately does not have to compete with those entry-level economy cars.
Think about how little it would cost to own/operate an Echo, especially a CPO one with a 6/100 warranty. They probably cost 1/3rd the price of a hybrid. Yet noone is lining up.
-juice
Actually you touched upon some of the myriad of (variable and scenarios. While you probably didn't envision this answer (variable and scenarios), the TDI has the potential for value over the 250k to 500k mileage range and is almost a steal at 1m miles.
Up against VW Jetta 2.0-1.8T, the BE is from 50-60k to 3k miles.Up against the Honda Civic, the numbers are 12,500 vs 18,000 (35 mpg vs 47 mpg for discussion sake) So 5500 buys a lot of unleaded fuel, 64,167 miles @ 3 dollar a gal. Right away one has to ascertain if mileage will be normal 12-15k per year. If it is BE is a hard row to hoe, 5.35 years to 4.3 years.
However the TDI is sweet for those doing over 15k up to 60k per year.
I wont bore the thread with the math. Those interested would only need data to input. For me, the upshot is app 28k per year. In my case, I have broken even with the 2.0, and have long since saved money over the 1.8T. However, I would get neither engine nor probably a VW if it were not for the TDI.
On the other side, the less quantifiable qualities are the TDI is WAY more fun to drive than the Honda.
We got the Honda Civic for a host of reasons, but chief among them is for a plain vanilla wrapper commute it is hard to beat the attributes of a Honda Civic with one requirement of automatic transmission.
Honestly? By then I'd expect something would go wrong that wasn't worth fixing, not necessarily engine related, but VWs aren't exactly known for their reliability.
I would buy a diesel for the range, but I would not be assuming nor even expecting it to last a quarter million miles. Not unless I drove like a traveling salesman.
Any how, I just see a lot of TDI owners give up on their cars long before their engines wear out, on this and other forums.
-juice
For me, going 250k and beyond is almost a no brainer. I ran gassers, a 1970 VW app 250k and in those days, the first clutch lasted app 120k miles. It cost all of 125 dollars to replace and I sold the car for non related reasons: no AC while living in MIAMI FL???!! I also ran a 87 TLC as a client and delivery vehicle for app the same. While I should have kept it, again I sold it for unrelated reasons.
So if I keep my current pace, we are talking 8.62 years. This is about the average time an average Am keeps a car in the passenger vehicle fleet anyway. So for me AVERAGE TIME is what I am talking about. So if the average mileage is 12-15k then obviously 29k is higher.
Another yardstick is currently there is only between 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet is diesel. Most of these are diesel light trucks. So as one can project/see, % and mean wise when a TDI goes 250k and above it does not represent the average of gassers which go 250k So for example if you have 10 Honda Civics and 10 VW Jetta TDIs going 250k and beyond, by virture of its way smaller population, the 10 VW Jetta TDIs are statistically more significant than the 10 Honda Civics.
For some reason diesel fuel around me costs more than other regions and isn't widely available. They are replacing diesel bus fleets with alt-fuel models, so if anything diesel demand might be dropping.
The euro Focus still hasn't come here, it would be bizarre to have the diesel engine on the last generation platform.
-juice
One extreme might be: folks that NEED to sell a Turbo Porsche, simply because the oil change interval is coming up.
Extremities aside, the TDI has a much longer design life than a gasse and or gasser hybrid. It is 20,000 hrs, but you will have to really look for the needle in the haystack to find any direct reference to this. So if your average speed is 50 mph then that equates to 1,000,000 miles. This is not to say a gasser/gasser hybrid can not and will not do 250k and beyond but most folks could really care ( as you have pointed out) pass usually 100k. So for example I already know I will change the water pump at 100k when I need to do the timing belt. Pretty simple logic, that tune up will make the engine good to go to 200k and so forth and so on. Given the design of the engine (not real happy with the A4 design, but oh well) it is cheaper to do preventative R/R on a water pump for if it starts to leak say at 150k miles you have to do the same steps to R/R a water pump and chances the resultant leakage will damage the timing belt you just changed already. So it is better to do preventative R/R.
So the first reaction might be this is a suicide design foisted upon unsuspecting folks, but renewal every 100k is a good thing. I mean how many folks with timing CHAINS have it looked at and replaced?? Normally folks dont keep it that long (200-250 is usually how long they last) and the first most folks even hear about an internal timing chain, let along know about it, is when it breaks!!??
A spin off is because I have that mileage horizon, I decided to use the best oil ( in my opinion of course) (Delvac 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck and SUV 5w40) In the process of reviewing data such as VOA'a, OCI s UOA's, I can safely run 25,000 mile oil change intervals. OEM type oil filters are designed with a 30k mile lifespan in mind. So as you can see, I wouldn't want to push the oil filter's life over the edge!??
-juice
2005 Prius: EPA is 55; 41 users avg. 48
2004 Prius: EPA is 55; 24 users avg. 47.1
2003 Prius: EPA is 48; one user says 43.3
2002 Prius: EPA is 48; 4 users avg. 46.1
2001 Prius: EPA is 48; 4 users avg. 45.8
2005 Civic Hybrid 5M: EPA is 48; 3 users avg. 42.9
2005 Civic Hybrid CVT: EPA is 48; 7 users avg. 40.6
2004 Civic Hybrid 5M: EPA is 48; 3 users avg. 51.1
2004 Civic Hybrid CVT: EPA is 47; 2 users avg. 44.1
2003 Civic Hybrid CVT: EPA is 48; 4 users avg. 43.1
2005 Accord Hybrid 5A: EPA is 32; 8 users avg. 30.2
2005 Insight 5M: EPA is 63; 3 users avg. 83.7
2004 Insight 5M: EPA is 63; 2 users avg. 77.4
2003 Insight 5M: EPA is 64; 2 users avg. 68
2002 Insight 5M: EPA is 64; 1 user says 86
2001 Insight CVT: EPA is 56; 1 user says 56.8
2001 Insight 5M: EPA is 64; 1 user says 60.1
2000 Insight 5M: EPA is 65; 1 user says 65.8
2005 Escape 2WD: EPA is 33; 5 users avg. 30.1
2005 Escape 4WD: EPA is 31; 12 users avg. 28.1
DIESELS
2005 Golf 5M: EPA is 41; 2 users avg. 44.1
2005 Golf 5A: EPA is 36; 2 users avg. 38.4
2004 Golf 5M: EPA is 41; 2 users avg. 40.8
2004 Golf 5A: EPA is 36; 1 user says 39.6
2003 Golf 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 45.5
2002 Golf 5M: EPA is 45; 3 users avg. 44.4
2001 Golf 5M: EPA is 45; 2 users avg. 51.5
2001 Golf 5A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 39.5
2005 Jetta 5M: EPA is 39; 3 users avg. 40.7
2005 Jetta 5A: EPA is 36; 3 users avg. 40.9
2004 Jetta 5M: EPA is 41; 4 users avg. 44.3
2004 Jetta 5A: EPA is 36; 1 user says 41.1
2003 Jetta 5M: EPA is 45; 10 users avg. 48.6
2002 Jetta 5M: EPA is 45; 2 users avg. 48.3
2002 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 2 users avg. 38
2001 Jetta 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 48
2001 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 41
2000 Jetta 5M: EPA is 45; 3 users avg. 45.3
2000 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 41.5
1999 Jetta 5M: EPA is 43; 2 users avg. 52
1998 Jetta 5M: EPA is 43; 1 user says 44.3
2004 Beetle 6A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 44.4
2002 Beetle 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 46
2001 Beetle 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 40.3
2000 Beetle 5M: EPA is 45; 2 users avg. 43.2
1999 Beetle 5M: EPA is 45; 1 user says 43
Derived from user ratings:
Highest rated Hybrid: Honda Insight
Lowest rated Hybrid (in this list): Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD (Chevy Silverado, outside this list)
Highest rated 4 door Hybrid Sedan: 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid 5M @ 51.1 mpg
Lowest rated 4 door Hybrid Sedan: 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid CVT @ 40.6 mpg
Most overrated Hybrid: Prius
Most underrated Hybrid: Insight
Highest rated Diesel: 1999 Jetta 5M @ 52 mpg
Before we write off hybrids, I think there are some applications where this technology is quite useful. Take the Accord Hybrid. This is a car which has the ability to get to sixty in around 6.5 seconds, but can also achieve around 30 mpg - this is a perfect blend of performance and economy, something that Honda has always been the best at (example: VTEC).
As for applying the technology to small commuter economy cars which sell to those who only want to achieve the best fuel economy, it seems that in this segment, hybrid technology either needs to make leaps, or people will soon realize that other alternatives (like Diesel) match and sometimes exceed hybrid economy at a (slightly) better price point. The bottom line is that for pure economy, at this point, hybrids are kind of a so-so solution.
But then again, the 2006 Civic Hybrid will only price about $1,000 more than the EX - both cars having the same amenities (sic sunroof) - so the Hybrid will be a more appealing option for those who want a little bit more convenience, but not to those who are just looking for a car that is the definition of "economical". I wouldn't write off people that drive hybrids as "greenies", "liberals', etc... I think these people (in the case of a Prius) go to the lot to buy a new car like a Camry, and they come across the Prius - a car which is priced roughly the same as a similarly equipped Camry - and they drive off the lot with a fresh looking car that gets great gas mileage - and it does.
I wouldn't call a car like the Honda Insight "economical" at its price point, which is just under 20K, but I would like to point out that when you buy a car like an Insight, you are kind of reallocating where your money is going - instead of Royal Dutch Shell, that money is now going to Honda; because of the car's extra cost, one isn't really saving money on gas (it depends on what kind of car he/she would have bought), but is giving that money to the car company instead. And there's nothing wrong with that, since geopolitics are kind of very highly influenced by the petroleum industry - and that's a whole different ball of yarn.
Even Honda admits that the first hybrid is it's "image" car, which is why they're still making it. If you talk to the majority of people who drive Insights, they will tell you how much they love their car - talk to a guy who owns a Corvette, he'll probably say the same thing. But nobody asks the Corvette guy if his car is ligitimate, do they?
I think Americans value horsepower as the almighty factor in buying a car - this is probably why BMW and Honda don't vend diesel cars over here, and now with this Hybrid stuff (which promises better "pep" than Diesels), this probably won't happen for a while now, unless the manufacturers shift their hybrid technology to moderate to high-performance cars and SUV's and focus on diesel for economy.
Just remember that what is produced by the auto industry is a reflection of what most Americans want; hence, if anything is to be changed, it needs to happen in the people's minds first.
The point you might have overlooked is even Honda and Prius have greater HP than the TDI 1.9 L that is common to the Golf, Beetle, Jetta which you have cited. My 2003 Jetta TDI is rated at 90 HP. Even my 2004 Honda Civic VP has MORE HP @ 115 hp. It even gets less mpg during the same commute 35-41 mpg vs 48-52 mpg for the Jetta TDI. So is that an indication that diesels have the "moral" high ground here?
2004 Prius HSD: EPA is 55; 24 users avg. 47.1
2005 Golf 5A: EPA is 36; 2 users avg. 38.4
2004 Golf 5A: EPA is 36; 1 user says 39.6
2001 Golf 5A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 39.5
2005 Jetta 5A: EPA is 36; 3 users avg. 40.9
2004 Jetta 5A: EPA is 36; 1 user says 41.1
2002 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 2 users avg. 38
2001 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 41
2000 Jetta 4A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 41.5
2004 Beetle 6A: EPA is 38; 1 user says 44.4
That auto-trans data makes a very convincing case that the dramatically cleaner (PZEV) hybrid is also much more efficient too.
Forget about what the ideal-condition EPA values indicate.
That real-world data says it all.
JOHN
Definitely agree with John about the emissions part, though, and that should not be completely ignored. That's a big limitation on diesels right now (CA for instance).
I'm not sure about diesels coming in at a better price point. Prius starts at just over $21k, Civic hybrid auto around the same ball park. A Jetta TDI automatic essentially costs the same. 2006 Civics will have higher prices, but so would the next Jetta TDI.
Basically the hyper-efficient sedans with automatic cost around $21.5k.
I don't see a significant price advantage in any direction, unless you want a manual (Civic or TDI would cost less) or you prefer a Golf over a Jetta. And you'd end up with a Golf IV - Europe has had the Golf V for a long time.
-juice
The 2004 Civic Hybrid was quoted to me at 20k and this was before, during, and after I bought a Civic VP at 12,500.
The 2003 Jetta TDI was 18,000.