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Comments
1. regenerative braking which I believe can capture up to 200 Wh of energy in the battery every 5 min.
2. the capture of some of the kinetic energy of the vehicle as it slows, by switching the e-motor to a generator thus having the wheels actually charge the battery
3. the use of the excess horsepower of the ICE while cruising to also charge the battery. During cruising above 40 mph if there is little or no load on the engine it goes to 'idle' at less than 1000 rpms. If the engine would normally turn ( burn fuel ) at say 1500 rpms this is a 'saving' of about 1/3 for small amounts of time individually, but cumulatively a significant amount.
Agreed. However the realities of this particular maket at this particular time prohibit widespread sales of the more efficient system. Rather than 'wait' it out until the political forces and technology conform Toyota has made an effort to take the lead in another direction. It still and will produce diesels everywhere else.
But what if all this R&D and knowhow triggers a development of a 'hybrid multiplier' for a diesel as well. In this case Toyota and Honda will be 10-15 yrs ahead of those that waited. Besides if nothing else for 10-15 yrs they have provided vehicles to a market that wanted them and could be legally sold everywhere here.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/25/BUGK8J1JK11.DTL
Sale and manufacture of hybrids hit some potholes
The article is filled with bad logic, but take it for what it’s worth.
But I want to understand where the Prius gets its "advantage" and how much you are paying for that "advantage". And whether or not thet are worth it.
VW by way of the current CEO (whether you like him or not, for a plethora of reasons) has stated consistently and publically that he sees the diesel as the "go to" fuel(my (sic) meaning) for the next gen or 30 years.
So in effect, the holy grail quest for the "perfect" hybrid, indeed on a macro as well as micro level; drives UP the cost of transporation UNNECESSARILY !!!!
What market realities are you talking about?
When coasting down long hills, have the engine and trans disengage, leaving the engine at idle but using the momentum to carry the vehicle until such time power is needed, unless the cruise control is in use.
On a side note, you of all folks do know the engine braking on modern diesel cars with manual transmissions is severely truncated. (not a bad thing I might add)
In looking at fuel efficient vehicle the first thing I did was rule out anything smaller than a Camry/Accord/Jetta. It also had to have all the safety features, ABS, VSC/Traction, ALL the airbags. These things generally are not available on the econoboxs
CARB and EPA maybe.
Since you present such vivid arguments, I'll reply in similar fashion.
"Right."
Nothing to do the the merits of hybrids Vs. diesels.
What's the real benefit here. As you are aware, an idling diesel( VW 1.9 TDI) consumes 250ml/hr. Not much savings there.
When coasting down long hills, have the engine and trans disengage, leaving the engine at idle but using the momentum to carry the vehicle until such time power is needed, unless the cruise control is in use.
The same effect can be achieved by putting it in neutral, or if the slope is steep enough, coast in gear letting the engine control the car's speed - while consuming no fuel in the process.
When decelerating using the kinetic energy of the vehicle to charge a storage device.
When cruising, using the excess power not being used to drive the vehicle to charge a storage device.
Turning down the rpm's while cruising to save fuel.(???)
Regen braking.
Being capable to drive alone on battery and e-motor.
Net effect: Potentially a 25-35% improvement on top of the 35% improvement of using just the diesel alone which would be total improvement of about 55%.
Take a midsized vehicle like a Jetta which now gets uses about 2.25 gal/100 mile ( 45 mpg ) if it could be made more efficient by abt 30% then a hybrid might only consume 1.6 gal/100 mi.
Would this be for everyone? Likely not, but it might appeal to those wishing to use the least amount of fuel as possible and/or those wanting better performance.
Cost is relative. What's expensive to some is negligible to another. A Jetta TDI is about $1000 more than its gasser sibling. Does it matter much to anyone? I don't think so.
The Edmunds forums are topic driven, so that people can read a thread that interests them.
This is a topic about diesels and hyrids. If you want a topic about fuel costs, by all means start one.
Well, sort of. The Echo actually was produced after the first Prius prototypes. So the Gen 1 Prius is similar to the Echo, though not an exact copy.
Gen 2 is a separate redesign.
The base engines are the same.
Such an Echo would be an absolute dog on the road - too little power. The Atkinson cycle increases efficiency but reduces output at lower RPMs.
The advantage of the hybrid is the larger, heavier, more comfortable vehicle, along with the MPG of a smaller vehicle.
are we only here to discuss the TECHNOLOGY? I don't think so.
Diesels work.
Hybrids work.
The COST of these technologies is what makes them deals or duds? How do you define "Deal" if not by discussing COST?
Riddle me that, Batman.
I will disagree with that statement. I imagine less than half the population gain anything from ABS, VSC, ESP PQR, Etc Etc. If you live where you drive on snow and ice maybe. I spent a big share of the last 35 years driving on Ice and snow. Never needed any of those devices. When our trucks got ABS we had to disable, as they are bad news on snow packed gravel. If the ABS module is $1800 as my GMC dealer told me, plus all the other useless crap, you are talking some serious money. It should ONLY be an add-on for those that think they need it. After reading stories of airbags popping open when people hit potholes I am not sure I even want them. My daughter had an accident and the passenger airbag opened and skinned up my 9 yr old grandson's face pretty bad. Her airbag did not deploy and she was unhurt. All the safety stuff is not as important as driving defensively.
Hydrogen will be great when its time comes. Now is not that time. Hydrogen is great because it doesn't polute out the exaust pipe of your car, but how is it produce?
Most of the hydrogen produced in this country is from steam reformation of natural gas which release CO2 into the atmosphere. Or by electrolisis of water and since the majority of the electricty produced in this contry comes from coal or petroluim (not to mention that electrolisis process is only about 85% effeciecent and does not scale with production) you are again putting more CO2 and polutants into the atmosphere. While your car is just spewing water and fresh air and you drive around feeling like your saving the world the plant to produces the fuel is spewing green house gasses and polutants.
Until hydrogen can be produced cleanly from renewable recources (water doesn't count if you are burning coal to make electricity) its not any closer to getting us off of dino fuel than anthing else. Where do you think the extra energy is going to come from to make all of this hydrogen, most likely oil.
Not to mention storage. Until storage of hydrogen in ceramic or metal solids is a reality your aren't going on many long trips. Even under pressure hydrogen is so much less dense the gasoline you would have to have a huge storage tank to go 400 miles. I could go look it but I don't want to so here is the equation for Ideal gas, PV=nRT from that you can calculate the density of hydrogen at pressure. Then compare the heat engery in that volume of tank to the heat energy in the same volume of Gasoline or Diesel. It will be shocking. Not to mention hydrogen molicules are so small that that can litteraly pass through metal tanks. That is why tridum (heavy hydrogen) is stored under vacuum. Under pressure it leachs out.
When hydrogen is made using the sulfer iodine cycle (Wikipedia has a good article on it) at a nuclear power/hydrogen cogeneration plants and we have figured out how to store it in solid form and release it on demand it will be great. Until then keep supporting research universities. We are getting very close but it is still a long way from saving the world.
vs
Honda Civic @ 38 mpg @ 3.25 per gal =.0855 cents per gal
TDI @ 50 mpg @ 3.19 per gal= .0638 cents per gal
So respectively for a 15,000 per year commute 10,950./1,283./957.
Shifting into neutral as you suggest is an invitation to an accident. Even when coasting down a hill in gear, some fuel is consumed and there also is some compression braking occurring and that uses fuel too. My suggestion was to let there be an electro-mechanical disconnect and allow the engine to idle while the vehicle coasts. Stepping on the accelerator would promptly re-engage the two faster than you could shift from neutral into gear.
I would agree. I would absolutely have no problem with someone spending $12,500 more to do the commute that I had described!
On a micro level, I just did a SF/SJ CA commute for a week stretch(worse than the LA LA LAND commute. Absolutely grueling stop and go. From a more normal 50 mpg in a fairly idyllic commute, if one can call a commute idyllic, I got (overall) 47.5 mpg.
The limiting issue is availability more than these two agencies. VW can barely keep up with demand in the EU.
The next big problem is how the United States public views diesels. There are several stigmas that must be overcome.
Hydrogen has very little heat energy per gallon.
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/100335/article.html
above is a more technical description.
So what is FE?
Well the title of the forum is Deals or Duds and I have known for years that first diesels and now hybrids are in deed duds. Economically. I wanted to buy a diesel Rabbit in 1980. You could get a gas rabbit for $6000 something and the diesel was like $8000. I WANTED a diesel rabbit but I figured out you would never save the $2000. THEN I found out you could get a Subaru Hatchback for $3700 so the diesel rabbit made even less sense. It made no sense to buy it.
I went through the same thing in 2001 when I bought my ECHO. $13.1k bottom line for the ECHO. I saw a Prius and loved the interior. Understated. Elegent. Real bauhaus. But they wanted $28,000 for it (plus tax etc) and I remembered the diesel rabbit. Now it costs $17,000 to save $2000 in gas. All the Prius does is take your money and give it to Toyota instead of Exxon. BRILLIANT!
It is looking more and more like the diesel & the hybrids are duds for us.
;-)
She likes the Scion xB's looks, but not the Prius???
as they say, "there's no accounting for taste"
more politely - "To each his own"
do drive that Scion - I think you'll be surprised at how junky it is. A 20-year old might not notice (and might not care, given the style-points), but I'd be surprised if any 40-year old American would like it. (this assumes that the American has driven a few cars in his/her lifetime)
We would have to. My wife is pickier than I am. She took her Lexus back several times when it was new for them to get the handling right. It was their first year and even Lexus had growing pains. They ended up changing out most of the front end before it was all done.
Like I told my wife the Xb is SOOO Ugly it is cute. Honda tried with the Element and it is just ugly. The Yaris and FIt are just sardine cans. The main draw to the Xb is room inside and visibility. The car will mostly be used to run to the store less than 3 miles with no freeway.
Mirrors are fine, I am with her I like to be able to see all around me.
PS
She likes the Scion xB's looks, but not the Prius???
Again it is the lousy visibilty and that stink bug look that so many cars ended up with.
vs
Honda Civic 38 mpg 3.25 per gal =.0855 cents per gal
TDI 50 mpg 3.19 per gal= .0638 cents per gal
So respectively for a 15,000 per year commute 10,950./1,283./957
So are you advocating the use of hydrogen, because it looks like its about 10 time as expesive.
Besides gallons isn't a very good way to represent the amount of a gas. It is typically costed per lb. I would much rather buy a gallon at 500psi than at 50psi
But like the Gen2 Prius it should be in such a vehicle that grabs the publics imagination...early adopters first have to sign on.
Honda to launch diesel Odyssey & Acura MDX in US
Good move from Honda. Seeing the opportunity to to be first in line to take advantage of the likely availability of ULSD it brings it to where economy really hits home and generates excitement. In Mom's control.
Here is a real battle shaping up and Honda is sent off the first volley. Most will concede that the Odyssey and Sienna are No's 1 & 2 in this very visible and prestigious vehicle segment with the Caravan a close third. Honda is taking the lead to make Mom happy which if it works spreads like wildfire.
Honda had to do something dramatic quickly for two reasons:
The Accord hybrid is ehh? at best so Honda has to quickly recapture some of the prestige of being at the forefront of conservation and concern for the environment and our resources. This is a good way to get there.
The new Sienna is due out about the same time as the Honda diesel and it is likely that the Sienna will have a hybrid option, IMO. As shown by the HAH, larger-vehicle hybrids are not Honda's specialty. The HCH and HFH are likely to continue to be winners but what should Honda do to fight against the new Sienna hybrid and Tundra hybrid which are likely to be announced at the end of this year. They cannot let Toyota continue to garner all the press, ( ditto for Toyota: Honda announced two plants, Toyota announces 10 new plants ).
In the Odyssey Honda has chosen a key vehicle which is frankly much more visible and influential than either a Jetta or a Liberty and put themselves on the line to convince Mom that choosing the diesel Odyssey is good for her family - less fuel costs mean more money for the family.
Now the education process has to begin. If Honda with it's great rep and the great vibes from the Odyssey, in general, can pull this off then diesels will be off and running. I'd bet on it.
It will be a good contest if it's a Honda diesel Odyssey (HDO?) vs a Toyota Sienna Hybrid (TSH).
Besides gallons isn't a very good way to represent the amount of a gas. It is typically costed per lb. I would much rather buy a gallon at 500psi than at 50psi "
In a word NO!!! Not that #'s of fuel is foreign at all, since in the jet fighter business, #'s of fuel is a common way to express.
As much as indications have suggested, it is easy to misread things in common contexts. I hope you are not advocating increasing the complexity of things by using uncommon references?
What kind of SPIN is that? You know full well that the Caravan outsells the Odyssey by more than 30%. With the Chrysler T&C selling nearly as many as either the Odyssey or Sienna. DCX Minivans OUTSELL all Japanese minivans combined.
If Honda were to offer the MDX with their diesel I would look hard and long at it for sure. It would be going head to head with the Mercedes ML320 CDI due in October. We like the looks of the MDX better than the ML. MDX needs something to gain market share that it has lost.
An Odyssey diesel could be a very smart move. As nice as that minivan is, it is not getting close to EPA mileage estimates. I don't think their VCM is doing as well as expected. They also need an AWD for buyers with poor winter driving conditions. A diesel with AWD would be nice if you need it.
It would also be fair to say that I wish the Camry Hybrid was more like the Lexus GS350H. I'd pay a few more bucks for more performance/handling/etc. But that's just me, and I know that isn't really what the market wanted.
Maybe I'll be willing to throw down the bones for a Lexus IS hybrid (which should be south of $45K....in my dreams)