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Not me. If you go back a few years on this and the other hybrid threads you would find statements and articles that proclaimed the hybrid technology would be available at all price levels within a couple years. Toyota has said from the start that the more they make the cheaper the price. It ain't so. The hybrids have only gotten more expensive and were never offered as economy cars where folks need to save money on gas. How stupid is it to think some rich dude in a GS450h is concerned with fuel economy. Give me a break here. The folks that really need the fuel economy of the hybrids are being shut out by Toyota and Honda.
How many years will this be leading edge technology only for the geeks? We just see this whole hybrid situation differently. If you can buy a base Camry for $18k and a base Camry Hybrid for $27,500, that is $9500 difference to get into a hybrid Camry over a base Camry.
To me it makes little difference, as my only occasion to drive a Camry will be as a rental.
but it is not a criticism of the technology, itself
As to the GS450H, I disagree with your critique. I would never buy a 7-series BMW or aLexus GS, because I am not willing to use that much gas to get my kicks. HOWEVER, if I can get decent MPG AND get some kicks, then I would consider it. The GS450H appeals to me, A LOT. (you can get 20 mpg with the GS450H, and "similar" vehicles get 12-13 mpg - it will be interesting to see if they sell many units, as I've never thought "that kind of driver" would care about mpg or the environment, generally) I just can't see spending that much coin on a car.
I would LOVE A great driving experience, combined with good fuel economy (whether by hybrid OR diesel). If Toyota produces a hybrid Lexus IS, I will be very interested. (I wish the Camry Hybrid was tuned and equipped for a more sporty ride, but....)
Wrong again! I am an early adopter. I bought one of only 300 GMC Hybrid PU trucks sold. And I like it. If it had not been discounted way below invoice I would not have bought. It is nice listening to Dvorak on XM channel 110 while the engine is silent at the stoplights. I just happen to trust GM over Toyota when it comes to innovation. Guess what it has never stalled flying down the Interstate. Not all hybrid owners can claim that.
Wow. If it was the sixties, I would agree with you, but now during 2006, it is really difficult to fathom how you could possibly misplace your trust like that...
I don't know of any diesel cars in this price range.
I'm NOT trashing diesels, just that I wouldn't call them an entry level car for a young driver. Neither any hybrid.
The $12,000 non-hybrid would be the deal. But the thread is about diesels and hybrids.
The cost of both diesel and hybrid is about the same, and similar MPG as well with comparative models.
Seems like a wash to me.
:-P
if they are, they are increasing the odds that they will stay poor
poor people can ill-afford throwing their money into the gutter
poor people have plenty of options - they can buy the used, stripped Corolla, or the used, stripped Civic that you are so fond of
they'll get good mpg, they just won't have as good acceleration or whizbang gizmos as us in our hybrids
hey, no one said life was fair. Besides, I paid for these gizmos (and through the nose, as you point out)
Still, I think it tells us what we need to know.
G: Can you plug a chain saw, etc. into your hybrid truck?
No, my Example #1 took place in July of 2004 - $19,324 for a manual tranny HCH with 4822 miles on it. That's two years ago.
Base price of a Prius is $21,725 right now, today, 2006. They can be ordered like that. Option packages go up from $599.
No, I am not. Toyota guarantees the battery for 8 years / 100K miles. Estimates for future costs of batteries I heard anywhere from a minimum of $3K to well upwards of $8K. You don't agree with $8K? Fine, show me the number and your source, and tell me why you are not adding that to the price of the vehicle.
BTW, the $3K was the probable price mentioned some time ago by the Toyota spokeswoman Mona Richards. Will you agree to $3K then? Will you then add it to the price?
This is a false estimate by those who I refer to as the 'flat worlders', those that think if you drive a vehicle with batteries that the batteries must fail at some point. Don't they?
No they don't. Toyota's literature and statements to public are that the batteries are ' .. expected to last the life of the vehicle..'. This is far in excess of the warranties. With normal care most Toyota's can be driven well into the 200K mi range. This is 12-15 yrs of normal driving for most of the population.
The basic hybrid warranty is 8 yrs / 100000 mi while in the CARB states it's 10 yrs / 150000 mi but in Toyota's testing the batteries went in excess of 180,000 mi with no deterioration in the performance. Thus they ( Toyota ) have made the statement above.
Yes to your last point about the potential cost to have to replace an entire battery pack being about $3000. However in 6 years in the States none have had to be replaced or if they have the number has been so small as to be insignificant and not reported anywhere. We did destroy a battery in a Gen1 Prius by abusing it. That is always a possibility.
There was entire forum here previously about this question but it went dead as ... nothing happened.
There was a statement once by a frequent poster
side note:
22,000 mi in 7 mo's; now typically averaging 530 mi for every 10.5 gal. The only costs have been two tire rotations ( 2 free ) and one replacement tire for driving over an allen wrench! :surprise: Air filter and winterization expected around 30K. Oil and filters free for life. I will get my money's worth here.
The basic hybrid warranty is 8 yrs / 100000 mi while in the CARB states it's 10 yrs / 150000 mi but in Toyota's testing the batteries went in excess of 180,000 mi with no deterioration in the performance. Thus they ( Toyota ) have made the statement above.
Fair point, but you must admit, it would be a bit of a confidence builder among the skeptics if the warranty was longer than that. If the failure rate truly is near-zero, then TMC would get plenty of PR mileage at no financial cost by offering a longer warranty, so why not just offer it?
As a business practice I don't think any automaker would extend a warranty beyond 100,000 mi unless required to do it. None have so far. Yes it would give the hesitant buyer a security blanket but as in the case of Hyundai ( until recently ) the 'smell' of the ultra long warranty was ... 'No matter how many times this vehicle breaks down we'll fix it for you.' That's not a signal to send out.
Better IMO to test the heck out of it and make sure it performs like it should and jump on any problems immediately. The four known issues have been handled in this way and it has worked with sales continuing apace.
I do not suggest that Toyota offer bumper-to-bumper warranty for 15 yrs or 200,000 miles, only that they do it on batteries.
in Toyota's testing the batteries went in excess of 180,000 mi with no deterioration in the performance. Thus they ( Toyota ) have made the statement above.
Making statements without standing behind them may seem weasely to some. Besides, the number of miles may not be the deciding factor. The age of the batteries may be just as important. I will consider buying a hybrid after they have been around long enough to test the voracity of Toyota's statements.
in 6 years in the States none have had to be replaced
Six years is well below the 15/200,000 which in my opinion is a must. However, even with the batteries lasting 200K miles, how much will the vehicle be worth at the point if the new owner has to replace them? Talk about sudden depreciation to $0. Diesel motors last very long. That should be a consideration as well. And yes, I do drive my cars a long time.
We did destroy a battery in a Gen1 Prius by abusing it.
Okay, I'll bite - how do you "abuse" a battery?
Abuse? Surprisingly don't drive it. The more an HSD vehicle is driven the better it is for the battery. Our first one ever was a demo for the market to test. Well it sat for 5 months over a winter once without being driven at all. We took no special precautions.
Value at 200,000 miles? Hmmmm... Any normal vehicle that is traded into us with 200K on it is automatically off to the auction and it's worth $300 if it runs and $100 if it doesn't. Ditto the hybrids. If the battery dies at 190K or 220K or 270K or 370K then it's a $100 vehicle just like any other with a dead engine.
Making statements without standing behind them? Please. If as with most Toyota's and Honda's the expectation is that they will last well into 200K-300K miles you think then that they should offer a 250K warranty? Be realistic. The public asked what is the life expectancy of the batteries. Toyota replied that they should last the life of the vehicle. Ditto the radio and the door locks and the seat fabric and the alloy wheels and...there's nothing different.
Malfunctioning radio or door locks are either cheap to fix or do not affect driveability of the vehicle. Batteries going bad amounts to a dead engine in a conventional vehicle. Therefore Toyota's statement that the batteries will last the life of the vehicle is true to the degree that the life of the batteries may define the life of the vehicle.
Well it sat for 5 months over a winter once without being driven at all.
And that was enough to ruin the battery? Hm. What if it wasn't driven for 3 months (happened to me before)? Will it be just half-dead? How much damage would that inflict?
That's a reasoned argument, but on the whole, I would think that the warranty does more to demonstrate confidence than not.
Longer warranties typically impress buyers because of the level of commitment, rather than scaring them off. I would think that a lifetime (for the car) warranty just on the battery packs would be safe enough, i.e. if the rest of the car is still working when the battery dies, the battery will be replaced free of charge. (You could put some language in the warranty to make sure that cars with burned-out motors and rusting body panels aren't get towed in from wrecking yards just to rip off the automaker.) If the batteries are that solid, the odd replacement would cost TMC a lot less than they earned.
By the way, this is one of those sorts of things that will consign me to being a Late Adoptor. I'll want to see how these things fare over the long run before I spend my money on one. But I'll probably come around eventually, especially when these become standard equipment on cars from every manufacturer, as I suspect that they will...
Yes I can. As a matter of fact I have used it for that to trim some trees on one area of our property. It has four 20 amp circuits.
When Toyota comes out with their 1/2 ton Tundra hybrid that is capable of towing 10,000 lbs, we can discuss which automaker is in the PU truck lead. Toyota has a ways to go to catch up with GM trucks. My trust is based on 5 GM trucks since 1988 that were great. And one 1994 Toyota PU truck that was a POC. What are you basing your opinion on?
I don't have an opinion, I look at survey and sales data that largely contradicts your position. For every one owner who feels as you do, there are many more who report their discontent to the various surveyors, including many who defect to the competition.
There is a reason why GM's sales are falling and why their defects scores are generally below most of their competitors. Should I believe millions of buyers who voice their objections and increasingly vote with their dollars elsewhere, or the random internet poster who is the exception to the rule?
Nice try at exaggeration. GM full size PU truck sales are off by 6% this year. Toyota Tundra is off by 12%. So who is losing the most truck sales. GM Tahoes are outselling Toyota full size SUVs by at least 5 to 1. Sounds to me like folks still prefer GM trucks and SUVs over any of the wannabes.
Regardless of your emotional attachments to any particular issue, please stick to the subject matter at hand and resist the temptation to post negative personal comments directed towards other members, as they will be removed immediately.
Thank you! Your cooperation is appreciated.
-Ron
Your other point. On the Prius there is a special provision for longterm storage or non-use of say 3 weeks or more. On the new TCH this has been taken into account with a software adjustment.
In the first case loss of 6.25% per year and second case 3.1% per year.
Residual/resale value has been a major priority in my own vehicle buying.
So in nexus to this post, while I have planned the 2003 VW Jetta TDI to be worth (ZERO) nothing at the end of 500k to 1 M miles, I do anticipate it to have far higher a % and dollar value than 100-300.
That raises an interesting question (or at least one that is interesting to me) -- what do owners of diesels or hybrids need to do differently or more diligently than would owners of typical gas-powered cars, and what happens if these things aren't done?
For an example not related to either, it is wise to allow a gas motor with a turbo to cool down at idle before shutting down in order to prevent coking. This would make me hesitant to buy a used turbo car because I suspect most owners don't bother with the proper cool-down procedure, which means that I will be inheriting a car with shorter turbo life (read: expensive repair).
If the batteries of a hybrid are subject to casual abuse, that would cause me some worry when looking at these as a used purchase. Likewise, diesels are typically turbocharged, so I assume that they are also subject to coking problems and therefore present more of a risk, at least in the used market for a buyer with long-term ownership goals.
So if anyone can address these, I would appreciate it. I've seen a fair bit about the different driving characteristics, but not much about the differences that arise when living with these cars day-to-day.
To be fair some gassers come with turbos. Having said that, the TDI or turbo diesel does use a VW specified "synthetic oil". The recommended oil change interval is actually 10,000. I run Mobil One (truck and suv aka delvac one )5w40 and indeed run 25,000 mile oci's. One also should not go (for example) from 80-95 mph- 2500-2700 rpm operation to direct shut down or off. So the reality is if you are mentally AWARE of this rpm range , all it really takes is letting the engine operate at less than that rpm range for 1-2 mins and THEN shut down. So the awareness is the mitigation. What I do like is I have the choice to drive hard or like a fuel miser. So indeed the practical range of the TDI can be 44-62 mpg. The epa range for this vehicle is 42/49 mpg.
The range (specifically 616-868 miles, given the 44-62 mpg with a .5 gal reserve 22-31 mile reserve 14.5 gal max)
between fill ups also has an interesting benefit.
So on a recent July 4, holiday trip from the San Jose CA area to Las Vegas, NV and return, I had found the cheapest (on that trip)diesel fuel on exit 33 just on the outskirts of Las Vegas and fueled. I also was going to detour by way of Santa Barbara CA. Fuel was very expensive along the way so I opted to go home to fuel!!
That is not the case... since there are *TWO* rather than just one as has been implied.
The one powers the computer, relay, and the alarm system. So naturally, just like any other vehicle with a continuous draw device, if you leave it armed for an extended duration it will eventually run out of power. That hurts the battery. But since it is so lightly little anyway, it isn't a big deal. Heck, even a portable 12v pump can be used to jump it.
The battery-pack is entirely different. And whenever you shut off the hybrid, it is physically disconnected from the system. In fact, you can actually here the relay. So it can sit around for months without any concern, since there is nothing using it.
And while the vehicle is in use, simply watching the display informs you that the battery-pack is never allowed (in "full" hybrids anyway) to be drained beyond 40 percent... which isn't even remotely close to a harmful discharge level.
JOHN
Is there any way to disconnect that battery (easily) if leaving the car unused for 3+ weeks (happens all the time to me)?
The battery-pack is entirely different. And whenever you shut off the hybrid, it is physically disconnected from the system. In fact, you can actually here the relay. So it can sit around for months without any concern, since there is nothing using it.
There are different kinds of rechargeable batteries. Some hold their charge over long periods of time better than others (lithium vs. NiHM). What technology is used in Toyota batteries to ensure that they can sit for months without worry?
simply watching the display informs you that the battery-pack is never allowed (in "full" hybrids anyway) to be drained beyond 40 percent... which isn't even remotely close to a harmful discharge level
So the batteries do not discharge while sitting idly? That's unusual. How are they made?
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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The battery-pack is entirely different. And whenever you shut off the hybrid, it is physically disconnected from the system.
This makes me doubt the efficacy of a future that includes plug-in hybrids. I would think that the constrant charging and discharge of the batteries would shorten battery life.
It's an ordinary 12-volt, just like in any traditional vehicle. It disconnects the same way too... and has absolutely nothing to do with the hybrid battery.
JOHN
Thank you for the pointer, kirstie_h. Excellent discussion, and indeed it answered my questions. I guess I will wait for a while until the "hybrid dust" settles down.
Any normal vehicle that is traded into us with 200K
If you have any traditional vehicle with 250K mi that runs and you expect more than $500 in trade then you are dreaming. Yes you likely can sell it for $1500 ( 6.25% of original value) but that wasn't what I said. Pay attention to the words... it makes everything clearer and easier to discuss.
On the contrary, I pay more attention than you are want to give credit, both in paying attention to what you (and others) are saying and including it in my response. So yes if you wish to trade, given what that normally means; I can see where you would think me getting what I have gotten, DREAMING.
But off topic to my response to your response, it is clear that there are a whole host and range of folks in which their car choices fulfills a myriad of goals and objectives which are secondary to the vehicle being a cost effective transportation tool. In my case, a plain jane commute car with the diesel being almost an ideal road car.
I believe Prius does better for city drivers over all cars, while the HCH and Jetta are great highway cars.
But I decided to really go beyond normal and maximize economy as far as I can safely raise it and not invoke trouble on the road.
With that in mind I'm doing better in my stock Civic Hybrid CVT than any other known diesel driver who shifts gears in his unmodified car.
At 71,000 miles I had to replace the regular battery ($59) and ready for new tires but otherwise no trouble.
I drive very hilly terrain, 90-95% highway/freeway.
Stretching it up to 985 miles/tank and 73MPG isn't normal in any shape or form, but the HCH is a very capable car.
This made my hybrid a better deal for myself. But I'm surely not going to hint in any way the Jetta is a "Dud".
However a 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH) vs the 2004 Honda Civic over 250,000 miles with 73 mpg vs 42 mpg (EPA 29/38 mpg), you just barely break even (plus 146 dollars). !!??
You're getting what mileage in your Honda?
Yearly savings:
$650 over my car driven "normally" (46MPG)
$1,100 over a non-hybrid Civic (38MPG)
$4,281 over my old car, a '94 Dodge Spirit (17MPG)
These calculations were made last week when fuel prices were $2.80/g,
and my effort at 66MPG, but getting better economy than that:
Calculations:
My old car 35K miles / 17MPG = 2,059gallons used * 2.8 = $5,765 fuel bill per year
Regular Civic 35k / 38 = 921 * 2.8 = $2,578
Hybrid driven normally 35K / 46 = 760g * 2.8 = $2,128
My efforts 35k / 66 = 530g * 2.8 = $1,484
God help us all when it reaches up to $3.50/g:
$810 over my car driven "normally"
$1,375 over a non-hybrid Civic
$5,340 over my old car
I save every single year, not after 250,000 miles.
The closest comparable Civic is the EX, and at the time sold for about $1,000 less than my HCH.
That was in Jan 2004 when gas was $1.24/g
-Steve
I think some have mistaken complexity for sophistication. It would seem that the HCH is elegantly simple, making it very sophisticated.
Let's see YOU say I am incorrect when YOU say YOU get 73 mpg? Then you go on to say you get 66 mpg? I think you have a warped sense of WHO is incorrect, not the fact that 73 mpg IS incorrect.
But the truth even 46 mpg is real good !! 46 mph however IS a long way from 73 mpg. However if a non hybrid Civic gets (AVG) 42 mpg vs hybrid 46 mph, don't take my word for it just do the math (correctly) between 13,000 and 20,000. The savings is app 517 gals. @ todays price of 3.00 that is $1,551 - 7,000. that still leaves $5,449.
I actually considered the hybrids; Prius and HCH. So despite assertions that folks like me (if not me) are "hybrid haters" NOTHING could be further from the truth.
Your understanding of what was written is not what he stated. I understood the comparison he posted.
It's why the HCH is very popular.
However it loses some of it's efficacy in larger vehicles beginning with the Prius, then TCH, HH, Sienna (?). It's now as powerful as the HSD system and it doesn't deliver the same FE in a larger/heavier vehicle that it might in a smaller vehicle.
In comparing the two 'near' competitors the HCH and the Prius by Edmunds and others the HCH is just a tad less capable performance-wise while being at least equal in FE to the Prius.
Again I have no problem with ANYONE buying a vehicle and NOT caring about B/E !!!???
That the HCH exceeds, on ocassion, the EPA values is a testament to good driving just as there are Prius drivers exceeding the EPA test values by 15-20% regularly, c.f. GreenHybrid data base.
HCH II
Median - 46.9
Mean - 46.8
Mid 50% - 43.7-51.0
Prius II
Median - 47.6
Mean - 47.6
Mid 50% - 45.2-50.3
Both are very capable for what they are intended to do in the vehicles they each operate.
It is truly not someone like me that has a beef with what the Prius gets in the "real world". For the record it has been a population of Prius owners!! So I am NOT the enemy!!
I agree that IMA on a vehicle larger than the Civic may be a waste of time and money for Honda. I think they have drawn the same conclusion as they are trying to get their great diesel into the US market.
I think you will find that the HSD peaked with the TCH. HSD in the RH, HH & GS450h are not great mileage getters. They are a novelty car for the rich and famous to feel green in. They also keep the EPA at bay. I am curious if Toyota actually tries HSD in the Tundra. If all they can squeeze from a HH is 25 MPG you know the Tundra will be lucky to make 20. You can get 22-25 MPG from a one ton diesel truck if driven empty. Probably why Toyota is talking diesel Tundra.
No, it is just more greenwashing.
Since non-hybrid models of Camry & Highlander share both the same chassis and the same engine, your attempt to convince people that the same thing is impossible for the hybrid version is clearly not objective.
Highlander-Hybrid could be equipped with the very same engine that just recently became available in Camry-Hybrid. That smaller engine favors efficiency, rather than power like the current larger one does.
JOHN
Could be but it isn't. Could be equipped with a diesel and get good mileage without all the complexity of HSD. The average Camry Hybrid is getting 35% better mileage than the HH. Are you telling me that Toyota did not know that prior to building the HH. Or was it just an afterthought when they built the RX400h. They are both a waste of money and technology. And do little to save fuel or clean the air. The hybrid system in the Ford Escape is a better system for MPG and emissions. The truth is in the sales. Poway Toyota has 3 HHs sitting on the front lot marked down to invoice. That is in CA the hybrid capitol of America.