Pontiac GTO v. Subaru STi

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  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • rznykrznyk Member Posts: 7
    Which GTO? The first model year wheel-hops horribly if you actually try to accelerate, but they apparently fixed that later on. That aside, you're completely and utterly wrong about the STi engine. Almost all its power is top end, as with all turbo motors. It does almost nothing until 3500rpm, and then it pulls like a train to 7000. It makes 90% of peak torque across a band roughly 3500 rpm wide. Let's see that GTO engine do that(fat chance, even with mods, unless these mods include an intercooled turbocharger or two.) Also, the hood scoop does what it is supposed to do - it provides cooling for the intercooler. There is a measurable difference with the bigger one, so they went to it. Finally, yes, it DOES have a stability problem at higher speeds. As in, around 140mph. Then again, so does the GTO. Difference being, with the wing, the STi is drivable at that speed, whereas the GTO driver simply has to hope there's nothing more than a gentle curve here and there.
  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    Maybe this has been brought up before - if so sorry. But in the past, the WRX has been MUCH slower in a street start test. I remember 60 times in the mid 5's for "lesser" WRX's, but when C&D did the 5-60 street start, the best they could get was about 7.4 seconds. Pretty pathetic and huge difference. Bottom line, in a lot of real world driving situations where cars are already moving, the Subaru isn't going to be nearly as strong. If squared off from a light and you know how to abuse it just right for the perfect launch, then you will turn an impressive time. I suspect the same holds true for these 300 HP versions. Maybe I'm wrong, but I bet the street start performance is more than .3 or .5 seconds slower as with other great performance cars.

    As for swerving around a track - well, that doesn't happen much. I do like to be comfortable all the time though. Sorry, a daily "punishing" ride and a spartan interior is an insane price to pay for magazine bragging rights about special track handling performance numbers.

    Give me a car that has a balance of performance and real world drivability and usability. Ok, monster tire melting power, decent handling, and real world drivability. Give me a GTO. The bonehead auto reviewers can have their cartilage grinding ride and slalom bragging rights and get smoked trying to pass a GTO. Come on, these guys actually look at things like lbs/HP comparisons - like the peak HP is actually the power generated anytime the throttle is wide open. It's just one point on the power curve. Torque considerations?? Again, many if not most of these reviewers couldn't even give an intelligent explanation of what torque and HP actually mean or translate it into a usable analogy. But so many people care what they think of a car we are considering.
  • rznykrznyk Member Posts: 7
    Most tests have the STi edging out the GTO in just about everything except the quarter mile. Find a test with 8th mile times, and the STi wins due to better launch characteristics. Guess what that stoplight drag is going to most closely resemble, chief?

    And then we could do a skidpad test. (Hint: the GTO will lose to some family sedans, much less to an STi.)

    Shall I go on, or do you want to just admit you like the GTO and don't really care about the performance as long as people think you've got it?
  • rznykrznyk Member Posts: 7
    The seats are GM's best? Wow. This reminds me of that joke about winning the special olympics. GM interiors have been the absolute worst in the western world for at least 30 years now.
  • rznykrznyk Member Posts: 7
    Lose on the street to a GTO? Only if the STi driver doesn't know what he's doing. Quarter times for the GTO are a bit faster, but 8th mile times are faster for the STi due to MUCH better launches. Guess which one that stoplight drag more closely resembles, chief? I've never even heard of an STi losing to anything American made except Vipers and late model Corvettes(C5, C6,) assuming we're talking stock vs stock, let alone actually witnessed it.

    And yes, you cool the intercooler. Just like you cool the radiator. I realize this may be hard to imagine, but it is true.

    Finally, regarding turbo bearings: your small block will spin a bearing long before I have turbo problems. Isn't it amusing that GM has an engine with this horrible design defect(when used hard, that is,) and hasn't fixed it in over 50 years of development? I laugh and laugh again. Maybe that's why an engine whose construction suggests it ought to wind out to 8500 RPM usually has a rev limiter a bit over 6000. Heh.
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    The STI is giong to be the better "stoplight" racer. AWD has a huge advantage, and unless the person driving does not know what he is doing and bogs it, it is going to get off the line much quicker. And once something has the lead, it is hard to overtake, although the GTO will eventually run by it. Also, start the race from a roll at any speed, and the GTO will pull away quite readily. Now for handling, obviously the lighter AWD car equipped with summer performance tires is going to handle better, especially in low traction situations and in tight turns. However most of us don't race on a skidpad or slalom track, so on a bigger track with some straights, the advantage may not be to the STI. Plus, many of us value ride quality, something the STI gives up in a big way to the GTO.

    Now for the obviously misinformed STI poster here. First, good that your STI pulls 90% of its torque for 3500rpm (and please show me a dyno chart backing that up). Problem is, you are completely off your rocker if you think a high boosted small 4 banger is going to have a better torque curve than a naturally aspirated V8. Here is the dyno chart for a LS2: LS2 Dyno. Looks to me it is pulling 90% from around 2000 to 6000rpms. Also your interior comment was a joke. Anyone who has sat inside both cars knows the GTOs interior is way better than the STIs and pretty much anything in that price range. And just what planet are you living on where you are having problems spinning bearings in any modern GM small block? I frequent many LSx forums, and I have not seen anything about spun bearings in years. If you really think your boosted 4 banger is going to last as long as a LSx engine, I got a lot of bridges to sell you.
  • rznykrznyk Member Posts: 7
    Hmm. I hate to break this to you, but other than people who did something stupid racing or modified the car, you'll be hard pressed to find ANYONE with a Subaru who has destroyed an engine, and an awful lot of abused Subaru engines have never broken anyway(the engine is a racing legend today, instead of 30 years ago like the small block Chevy.) OTOH, stories of GM smallblocks grenading are roughly as common as tall tales in fishing.

    And as for the interior, yes, I know it is nicer than most GM interiors - however, you must admit GM interiors generally suck, and that what I said is funny if you aren't a GM nutball. (Also, which STi? The 2005 interior is much nicer than the 2004 - MUCH nicer.) Also, the fact that small blocks don't spin bearings as often(and it does still happen - just about the most common engine failure in the world per 1000 engines sold,) is mainly because, as I said, they reduced the redline. The rest of the engine could take much more, but they know their relative journal sizing causes spun bearings at high RPM, so they cut it back. Yes, it still can make a lot of power, but my point stands: people claiming it represents "superior technology" are off their rockers(pun intended.)

    One thing you have to understand though, as regards the interior thing: I'm not like most people. I don't think bright colored leather looks good. Tan is fine. Black is ok. Leather in any other color usually looks like you ought to glue on some rhinestones. As such, I don't much care for the GTO interior. Maybe if I lived on a ranch somewhere and shouted "yeehaw" all the time, but I'm not like that.
  • rznykrznyk Member Posts: 7
    That dyno plot you provided shows 90% torque from about 3000-5000 rpm. That's a bit over half as wide as the STi. If only it had 9 gears, it wouldn't matter. Heh.

    I know the GTO will win a quarter mile - by about one tenth of a second, which means the GTO driver will have to nail his launch perfectly or lose anyway(whereas launching a high powered AWD car is almost too easy,) - but the thing is, it is a car made for people who want a "fast car" but aren't willing to live with one. ALL it does well is go straight. There are half a dozen econoboxes that'll outhandle it given equivalent tire compounds, and probably that many that will stop shorter.

    If you want a luxoboat with an oversized engine, like bright colored leather, and don't have the money to afford a real luxoboat, there's nothing wrong with a GTO. To people who actually compete in their cars(even occasionally,) cars like this GTO are a joke.

    Personally, it makes me ill that they reused the GTO name on this pig. The original GTO was light for its day, and if it wasn't the best handling car in the world, it was cheap. It was a young man's car. Adjust its price for inflation, and you get about $20,000 in today's dollars. The real GTOs of today are the SRT-4 and the Cobalt SS. This GTO is being sold to nouveau riche morons who wish they knew something about cars but know the GTO name and to nostalgic old geezers. (Not that others aren't buying it, but that's the marketing.) Just sad if you ask me.
  • rznykrznyk Member Posts: 7
    You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. The STi engine can be revved to 8500 rpm with a few changes to the valvetrain, but was set up as it is for whatever reason. The STi engine, however, is not the point. The point is, the small block's original selling point as a performance engine was high revs, and it was unreliable at high revs. Still is. And unlike making a few valvetrain changes, the problems with high revving small blocks can't be fixed short of designing a new engine(or you could just go get a Ford 302, which doesn't have the problem and is quite comfortable winding out to 9000 rpm with appropriate valvetrain changes.) The small block Chevy is ancient technology. Yes, they've put more flow bench and computer modelling time into preserving and updating it than anyone else has ever bothered to do with any other engine, so it is impressive performance wise - but pretending it is somehow "superior" is pigheaded. Even the redesign(the "new" small block,) looks more to me like an attempt to revive GM's performance parts division by making all the aftermarket guys spend money and time on reworking their catalogs than anything else; the changes to the heads didn't require a new block, and that's where all the real improvements are - the heads.

    If you want to read bearing stories, join a drag racing forum and wait. You'll have to endure guys pretending their engines are "bulletproof" over and over again and insisting that you're right and I'm a nut and that the engines never break, but the stories will come in anyway, and everyone will pretend it is a total shock every time it happens. Of course, you might have to have some mechanical knowledge to figure out what's going on sometimes, because a lot of these guys are too ignorant to know that a spun bearing was what caused their engine to come apart on them(small block guys have a completely incomprehensible number of "faulty gaskets" and "bad oil pumps" :) ), but it is pretty obvious if you do have that knowledge.
  • 442man442man Member Posts: 210
    ....."The small block Chevy is ancient technolog"......

    Actually it's newer technology then OHC and DOHC. ohc and dohc engines were around BEFORE pushrod engines, some people need a history lesson. It still gets the job done.
  • 442man442man Member Posts: 210
    ......"If you like to feel every bump in the road I guess you have the right car. "Punishing ride, uncomfortable seats", sounds great to me".....

    You hit the nail on the head. I like my cars to have a balance of handling and comfort. STI handles great, but awfull ride. Wouldn't take a long trip in it. $30k + for Subaru Impreza is too much. It's basically an economy car with enhanced engines/suspensions etc
  • 442man442man Member Posts: 210
    ......"C&D did the 5-60 street start, the best they could get was about 7.4 seconds. Pretty pathetic and huge difference".....

    Yep, that is about right. The only way you get those 5 second times WRX is to really abuse and dump your clutch at 3500rpm+. That must do wonders for the drivetrain, esp clutch! If you just nail it closer to 7 seconds+. Same thing with the S2000 Honda too. I like the GTO it makes power as soon as you hit the gas.

    Many WRX owners have gone through multiple clutches already. Engines seem to be strong.
  • ClairesClaires Chicago areaMember Posts: 1,222
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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The small block is a phenomenal engine, and now power levels can easily manage the weight of the GTO. I think it deserves respect, in fact it commands it.

    The EJ257 in the STi is a lot more modern than the base WRX's engine, it has more displacement and more boost, plus AVCS and a bunch more technology behind it. That plus a solid 6 speed and it too earns respect.

    Just because there are 2 ways to slice a pie doesn't make that pie any less tasty.

    -juice
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • jontyreesjontyrees Member Posts: 160
    Just a thought, but over what rpm range does the LS2 make at least 90% of the STi's peak torque? Does the STi engine EVER make 90% of the LS2's peak torque?

    Also - can we just lay to rest the misconception that the LS1 or LS2 are somehow ancient dinosaurs? LS1 was totally new in the mid-90's, and LS2 is virtually brand new. They have nothing in common with the old 1950's small blocks, other than some basic design elements, like being pushrod gasoline burning engines. Criticizing them for using pushrod technology is like criticizing all cars for still using the wheel. I mean can't we come up with something newer than those darned round things on the corners of the car?

    BTW, my GTO has the red interior, and my rhinestones are arriving any day now. Yee-ha.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You gotta factor in weight, otherwise the discussion is pointless.

    Gearing, too, while we're at it.

    LS2 is sweet, BTW.

    -juice
  • max19max19 Member Posts: 22
    I am an owner of a brand new GTO. Silver / Black interiors 05, the leather and the interior are great, I can compare it with my Audi A4 3.0 Quattro.(2005). It is a pleasant drive and you have plenty of power in passing situations. It does not matter if you are in 6th gear, the car responds like 3rd or 4th in my Audi. Too much power. My only complaint about the car is the very small trunk space along with the foot rest - the clutch pedal is too much to the left and could take time to figure it out.

    Beign a coupe, it is difficult to get in the backseat- (like I care, I do all the driving) but once back there it has a lot of leg space unlike my A4 or a 325 bimmer (2000) that I once had.

    I have had this car for the last 3½ months and it destroyed the love I had for european cars. My 325 gave me a lot of problems with electric systems and my A4 had a major airbag problem, not to mention that 3 weeks after the purchase a tail light went off, the serpentine belt broke after 3 months.

    So far so good with this car and I like the fact that it is a stealth car and not a flashy "arrest me red-fast and furious" car. It is perfect for the daily commute and very good at passing power.

    Question to you guys -

    How biast or fair are Consumer Guide ratings? According to CG, they rate the GTO a 9 out of 10 over the Mustang GT, 350z, RX8 and yes, even over the STi.

    http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/New/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/37468/Act/Roadtest/

    and

    http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/38216/

    For the Sub and for the Pontiac. Are they Pro-GM or pro Ford because that changes a lot of ratings.

    I am not trashing anybody since I am just a daily driver who likes a good ride, comfort and passing power. I tried buying the Mustang GT but the difference in ride quality and interior on the GTO made my desicion the Goat.

    Enjoy your ride gentlemen, they are both great cars and everybody enjoys different stuff.

    I like my Goat though!
  • max19max19 Member Posts: 22
    There was absolutely no incentive for the Mustang, even, they were trying in 4 different dealers to sell it $2k over invoice. After the incentives and rebates due to low selling, the car from a $33690.00 invoice was chopped down to $28790 (Employee disc. + hot buttons - yes, they gave me the discount even before it went out) and by reading the comparo from Car and Driver "21 century muscle car" and that "gotta have it factor" and "fun to drive factor" of course you can tell it was biast. After all the Stang only won for 1 point and it was heavily due to the "gotta have it".

    I will like to see when the srt8 Charger comes out, but personally I don't like Chrysler too much.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think they rate as high up there as many other pubs in terms of technical merit, but they are a good resource for looking up prices. The Forester is recommended and plenty of asian brands earn their best buy stamp, FWIW.

    It's funny how price can spark up interest in a car. Noone wanted last year's GTO at the list price, but when incentives made prices plunge interest bounced back. Now with +50 horses it may not even need them any more.

    The Saab 9-2x (WRX clone) was the same way, price too high it was unloved, but GM Employee pricing brings that so far down that it became a cult car, 9-2x Aeros with manual trannies are now hard to find.

    Pretty interesting.

    -juice
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    Well I was talking about the '05 because that one beat you already in the Edmunds comparison but heck, I have the '04 myself. And I don't have any turbo lag. But you have to wind it up to 3500 to get off the line. If I did that I would only burn rubber. So it probably depends on who hooks up better. And where do you get that that the GTO has a stability problem at 140mph? It is limited to approximately 160mph. It doesn't run out of gas nor does it have any stability issues at that speed. The STi is drivable at 140? I doubt it. "the GTO driver simply has to hope there's nothing more than a gentle curve here and there". Are you trying to tell me that an STi could take hard curves at 140mph? Give me a break. Even if you do get me off the line I will take you at higher speeds.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    What are you talking about? The GTO beats the STi in everything except handling. The only times I have seen for the STi is 0-60 in 5.6 by Edmunds and 5-60 in 7.4 just posted here. I can do better in my '04...

    Considering the punishment you take driving the STi, I think you are the ones fooling yourselfs. The GTO has the performance and the drivability.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    First one of you says that you win on the oval track and drag racing is a joke. Now you are saying that you can out drag anything but Vipers and Corvettes? Get your stories straight...

    I have to admit that cooling the intercooler is, well, cool.

    And finally you come up with the LS1 or LS2 has an engine defect. I never heard that one before....
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    I have never heard of even one LS1 or LS2 engine failure. I don't know where you get your information. Nothing has ever been posted in any forum I have been in.

    "GM interiors generally suck." The GTO is the best GM offers except for perhaps some Cadillacs. Anyway the leather interior in my Grand Prix is better that the STi interior. It is comfortable and is actually placed in the correct position in front of the steering wheel unlike the STi and it's 'high friction' cloth...
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    "launching a high powered AWD car is almost too easy". Really? The STi sounds like it bogs down if you don't rev it high enough on launch. And poping the clutch at 3500 rpms. Oh yeah, that car is really gonna hold up for a long time....

    The econoboxes that outhandle the GTO are hundreds of pounds lighter and sacrifice quality, class, speed, top end, etc. Remember the GTO is a heavy car yet still handles well and it's performance is unbeatable by econoboxes and Subarus.

    Anyone that considers the GTO a joke hasn't raced one. Call it a pig if you want it will still beat you...

    As to who is buying the GTO, well unfortuantely I am not rich. Call me a geezer if you want but I am not nostalgic. No one with a GTO is unhappy with it so why are you sad???
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423
    It makes 90% of peak torque across a band roughly 3500 rpm wide. Let's see that GTO engine do that(fat chance, even with mods, unless these mods include an intercooled turbocharger or two.)

    You've got to be kidding. I bet the LS2 does 90% peak torque over 3500rpm BONE STOCK.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Noone said anything about ovals, this isn't NASCAR. LOL

    performance and the drivability

    The latter compromises the former somewhat. Performance is more than only straight line acceleration.

    STi's seats are suede-like Ecsaine, not high friction cloth. I'm beginning to doubt you've ever sat in one, much less driven one. It's so far from cloth it's not even funny.

    A lot of the comparisons you make seem like you're comparing a GTO to a base WRX, not an STi. You might of read a review but I seriously doubt you've driven or even ridden in an STi.

    "No one with a GTO is unhappy"

    Not true, no car has 100% happy owners, that's just laughable.

    You talk in extremes and absolutes about an STi you know very, very little about.

    -juice
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423
    or you could just go get a Ford 302, which doesn't have the problem and is quite comfortable winding out to 9000 rpm with appropriate valvetrain changes

    An over-square engine design will do that. GM made their own 302 back in the day, you know...

    And on the Subaru engine durability thing. Yeah, I hear their fairly durable. Of course, the majority of subaru engines are under 200hp, aren't they? I can tell you that on one of the other forums I frequent, one of the regulars bought a WRX as a winter beater for his Impala SS (oh I know, I can hear you now...) and he actually spun a bearing at 3000 miles. He knows it was a freak occurance and so do I, but nonetheless, it happened.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    You don't like leather but you like fake suede? Ok, once again, you have the right car for you. Everything I hear about the STi turns me off. Sluggish off the line unless you rev it to 3500 rpms. I guess that's what Edmunds was talking about when they called it frantic. Uncomfortable seats. Punishing ride. And what for? It's probably a great rally car but be honest, you've never been on a rally have you.
  • original555original555 Member Posts: 1
    hahaha

    What an interesting read...the GTO owner seems so one eyed. Don't forget that the GTO is really a "Holden Monaro" from Australia! That car has been here since 2001(in that shape chassis) and although with some mods they can get up and boogy, they are not the refined saloon you make it out to be! haha they are used as taxi cabs here in Australia, and at the end of the day to us who really know the car, the GTO is just an overpriced taxi cab!! Surely you have not sat in an STi or WRX to realise that the seats are one of the most supportive that you can get on the market, the only people that complain are ones who tend to be weight challenged! Punishing ride? Drive the GTO for more than 50K miles and wait for it for rattle it's doors off! They are both as bad as each other, they aren't BMW's or Mercedes!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Check the CCB threads - a couple of GTO owners there had their cars bought back by GM because they were lemons.

    Subaru has the edge in reliability, no question about that.

    -juice
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    Who are you speaking for? People over there pay $60K for the GTO or whatever its called over there. For people who know the car, do you think they are going to spend that much money on a taxi cab? But you know, a taxi has to go a lot of miles and take a lot of abuse. It could be perfect for the base model...

    Back to the STi seats. Ok, they are supportive, but uncomfortable. And not placed correctly in front of the steering column. The GTOs seats are supportive and they are comfortable. And they are placed correctly in front of the steering column.

    Want me to go on? I've got lots more. I just love when someone compares a pumped up econobox to a quality GTO...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Isn't that about $30k US?

    Just asking.

    How can you call the seats uncomfortable if you never sat in them?

    We're all shaped differently. For instance some people find the EVO's seats phenomenal while I can't even fit in them so I find them miserable. It's just one opinion you read about and you act like it's gospel.

    Feel free to actually try it out yourself and form your own opinion. Otherwise we should just read the original review, since you're not adding anything.

    quality GTO

    Does that include those 2 lemons?

    -juice
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    So are you telling me if I check Subaru threads I will never find anyone who had a lemon?

    GTO has the edge in reliability and quality, no question about that.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I have not seen a single STi lemon in the Edmunds forums, so yes, as a matter of fact.

    Plus the GTO hasn't been out as long.

    -juice
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    Congratulations for selectively pulling out resale values. Also congratulations for stereotyping GTO owners as old. By the way, I have driven both cars (and own a GTO) and what has been rehased here many times continues to be true - the STI is a very fun tossable car, but at the expensive of every day driveability. By the way, the one editor picked the STI over the GTO, the other two picked the GTO over the STI. So which one was really preferred?
  • minimoog2228minimoog2228 Member Posts: 6
    Sensai please go do the search and you will see all the prices are skewed this way. Please dont get on your high horse until you have at least done the research. The GTO has a terrible resale value. The suby has amazing resale value. Please just humor me and do the search i am not trying to slant the facts just present them. As for the old comment it was joke. You dont see 40 year old men in my neck of the woods in driving an sti and you dont meet to many people under 25 driving GTOs. The interior on the GTO is very nice but the shell is horrible. I know the sti is a strange looking car to some but I really dont want to pay 33k for v8 grand am (going by looks only). GM is makes the ugliest cars in the biz and has for years. Aztek any one? Vibe? Cavi? Hell the entire pontiac line. At least chevy has the corvette. Here is what mr lutz had to say about the AMAZING GTO!!!

    "In an interview with TCC, GM big dog Bob Lutz said about the GTO, “Maybe in retrospect, we should have done a more retro car,” but he insisted that “the car is not a flop.” That’s because although it seems that no one really wants one, every U.S. sale adds slightly to the volume of cars already moving briskly in Australia, badged as Holdens, a trend which continues to generate revenue for GM. Plus the GTO may be gaining a bit of steam, as reported by dealers in import-crazed Cali, where 4.6 percent of overall GTO sales have originated this year. Industry sources claim the next Pontiac muscle machine will be more aggressive-looking, although Lutz himself, when asked about future plans for the car, did that mime thing where he pretended to zipper up his lips, lock them, and throw away the key."

    Tell me what about "no one really wants one" do you not seem to get? I am not saying it is a bad car because it obviously is not. It just isnt a very popular car. The sti on the other hand is.
  • minimoog2228minimoog2228 Member Posts: 6
    " By the way, the one editor picked the STI over the GTO, the other two picked the GTO over the STI. So which one was really preferred? " Can you link me the article the one i read was short and didnt say anything about the editors and it ended like this.

    "Conclusion
    On paper, the GTO looked tough to beat. A 400-hp small-block V8, six-speed manual, rear-wheel drive — what more do you need? But the more we drove these cars on the edge, the more we realized that the STi was the real deal. It held its own on the drag strip and flat-out smoked the GTO through the slalom. Plus its backseats come with doors. On the street, more than one editor noted that when it comes to raw, unfiltered feel, it's the Subaru that delivers over the more refined GTO. Add in the STi's higher-quality interior and usable trunk and it's the Subaru that gets our $33K. " If 2 out of 3 people like the gto better than please tell me why didnt it win? I will say i have seen both interiors and the GTO has my vote.
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    I did do some research, and from what I see the average resale of the STI is 3k more, and not the big differences you were quoting. Besides, I see no point of comparing resale of 1 year old cars. Let us see how a 05 GTO and 05 STI compare 3 years down the road. Somehow I do not think the STI, which is going to be known as an abused teenage car, is going to carry a better resale value in the long term.

    And I really cannot respect anyone who calls the GTO a Cavaliar/Grand Am/Grand Prix. No one is going to argue the GTO is fairly bland. But that is way different than ugly. Ugly is what the STI is close to being, with the huge spoiler and hood scoop. Regarding popularity, just how many STIs are being sold? I cannot find 05 numbers, I found one reference to 04s selling 7000 units. I do not know if that is true, but it would be a real laugh if it is.

    FYI - if your looking at the comparison article on Edmunds, there is a link in the left hand column for "Second Opinions". Also it should be noted the guy who wrote the column itself came to Edmunds from one of the import tuner magazines.
  • minimoog2228minimoog2228 Member Posts: 6
    "I did do some research" Okay what zip code? Let me verify what you are saying. In the zip i provided

    04 gtos all under 10k miles, 15 came up in a 100 mile radius
    $26,999 Highest price
    $22,900 Lowest price
    $25,544 Average price

    04 STIs all over 20k miles but 1 and 1 has 40k miles came up with 7 in 100 mile radius
    $28,995 Highest price
    $24,800 Lowest price
    $27,712 Average price

    Pull up the zip 43081 and look over the cars, all the stis but 1 have over 20k miles and all the gtos have under 7k miles but 2 yet they cost up to 6k less!

    "But that is way different than ugly."

    This is all personal preferance and i hate the look of the entire pontiac line. Its bland and every car look the same and has for years. The GTO can easily be mistaken for other pontiac cars. As for the STI the hood scoop and giant wing are 100% functional. This has be documented again and again. Google STI reviews and do a little reading so you dont look so uninformed.

    Did you miss the news about gm?? Did you know the pontiac line plays a large roll due to its amzingly lack luster sales? Did you know gm is giving employee discounts to everyone due to the rut? Funny thing is subaru is a gm product yet you cant get the discount on ANY subaru model. They dont deal the STI period but they sure do deal on gtos!!! Sensai it is obvious you are taking this personal and you need to realize that the sti being a better car does not mean the gto isn't a good car.

    "Somehow I do not think the STI, which is going to be known as an abused teenage car, is going to carry a better resale value in the long term."

    Yeah i know all the local high school kids in my area have one. You cant even get into high school without a 35k car these days(sigh). I dont know were you live but "teenagers" around here dont own 35k cars. Do you realize what the insurance would be like on a car like that for anyone under 25 let alone the car payment? If you are a parent and you get you kid a car like this you are 1. rich and 2. stupid and looking to get your kid killed.
  • minimoog2228minimoog2228 Member Posts: 6
    The dealer trade in on 04 gto with 40000 miles on it is only 15,950. Ouch have fun trader her in when the time comes. The STI is 19200. 3200 Is quite a bit of money considering its about 10% what both cars cost new. That would be a crazy amount of negative equity. You at this point have zero argument in regards to the value of the gto vs the sti.
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    Personal? Who is the one that is bound determined to make the GTO look bad. Again, who cares about resale on 1 year old cars? Talk to me in 3 or 5 years. Who keeps ragging on the GTOs looks, when they are driving what could be mistaken as regular WRX with some tacky add-on's. And yes I know they are functional, but they still look horrible. I have never argued against the STI being a better car if you go out and rally race or something like that. For the rest of the population that needs a powerful car, with great build quality, and much better driveability/comfort, clearly the GTO is better.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    Nice try. $60K in Australia is around $45K American. A lot of money for a car that is imported and sold for $33K here. Somebody over there must really like it.

    It just makes sense about the seats being uncomfortable. Since everything else is engineered for all out performance, I expect the seats to be that way also. So they are probably very good while dumping the clutch at 3500 rpms but the rest of the time while driving around town they are probably uncomfortable.

    Yes, you should read the original review. It was actually very good review. It pointed out each cars strenghts and weaknesses. The GTO got the nod in power, comfort and drivability. The STi won in handling, road feel, and stuff like that. So enjoy your edge in handling and leave it at that. Just don't go claiming your faster than the GTO. Or that your seats are better. Stuff like that...

    I haven't seen Subaru at the top of any consumer satisfaction list. In fact, the last thing I read, Hundai and Kia beat out all the high end Japanese and European cars. I only know of one GTO that was bad enough to buy back and it was, and the owner has a new car, and I bet the old one has been repaired and it probably sold by now. All models have lemons, that's why there is a lemon law. Are you trying to tell me it hasn't happened to Subabu? Ever?
  • pharperpharper Member Posts: 1
    Guys, you don't know how lucky you all are!

    I live in the UK, but haven't owned either a Sub STi or a new GTO. However, I have had a '71 Corvette with a 454 LS6 and a 2001 Impreza Turbo, as well as a 1992 Sub Legacy 4-Cam Turbo and various other reasonably fast cars. I'd even include a BMW 330d "Diesel" in that description.

    My favourite car out of all I've owned was the 'Vette. I'm not sure if the motor was genuine, but who cares when you can take 1000cc motorbikes away from the lights?

    However, give the 'Vette even a sniff of a raincloud and it would get itself so bent out of shape it'd likely kill the biker in the next lane. Both the BM and the Sub launch so well it's almost easy, as previous posters have said, so in good old England they are the cars of choice. (our roads are narrow)

    GTO or STi? The GTO's sold in the UK as a Vauxhall Monaro, for approx $60,000, for which I can buy a Mercedes 320 or BMW 330. I could, alternatively, buy an Sti for less than $40,000.

    Hmmm, brand new "GTO", or STi and enough change to maybe buy a "real" GTO - you know, those '67 motors with the stacked headlights and a 389...

    Don't suppose anyone's selling one?

    Cheers

    Paul
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    You've fallen back on the old it's more popular so it's better. Who cares how many people buy STi's. The GTO is the better car period. GTO owners have an exclusive car that apparently a lot of people can't stand because they can't quite meet the performance with their cheepo wanabe's. Although, gee, a lot of you end up paying more. I guess that's what's bothering you.....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Resale on a 1 year old car is the only data we have, and it's certainly an indicator for the future. It's not all that matters, if you enjoy the GTO more you may find it's worth the extra hit on depreciation, but a reversal in that trend is doubtful.

    So supportive, grippy seats have to be uncomfortable? Support is good, especially on longer drives.

    I haven't seen Subaru at the top of any consumer satisfaction list

    Look around - WRX is CR's top pick in its category, as is the Forester. They named Subaru the most reliable brand for 2004, ahead of Lexus even. RL Polk awards them for repeat buyers, Strategic Vision for Total Quality, and they're no strangers to JDPower's IQ list either. If you haven't seen it, it's because you haven't cared to look.

    -juice
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    I've driven an '04 GTO and an '05 STi. There is zero comparison in the handling department. Point an STi the direction you want to go and you better hold on because it will go right now. No delay, no complaints, just OMG hold on this is better than a go-cart handling. The GTO on the other hand is typical GM suspension calibration turn the wheel hard, get some body lean going, tire squeal and yes eventually it will turn.

    Acceleration is a close draw, when it's dry. Unless you only drive on days with no rain or snow then I guess your GTO is fine but you can't beat that AWD all weather traction of the STi.

    Outward beauty is too subjective. My opinion is that the GTO both inside and out remind me too much of the wife's '95 Grand Prix, enough said. The STi looks like boy racer on steroids. Neither look is that appealing to me so it really doesn't matter. If I were only going on price, performance, good looks I would go for Mustang GT but out of the GTO and STi, I would pick the STi hands down. Now if they would only make an STi Tribeca then I would be set. ;)

    You shouldn't knock a car you haven't driven. You should also look at how heavily discounted the GTO is before people actually buy them. No problem with the STi selling.
  • ClairesClaires Chicago areaMember Posts: 1,222
    Let's stick with comparing the two cars. Leave the personal comments out of the discussion or they'll be removed.

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  • gnxdanmangnxdanman Member Posts: 18
    The STI and GTO appeal to 2 different markets, not sue why they tested them head to head. They are similar in price, but that is about it.

    Sorry ,mayberryguy, the GTO interior does not look like your 1995 Grand Prix interior in any way. It's very European looking/high quality. Unlike anything else from GM. I traded in my 2000 BMW 540 for the GTO and the quality is very close. Many auto magazines have said the GTO has GM's BEST interior and seats, better then vettes, Caddies.

    Actually the 2005 GTO is NOT heavily discounted at all. Only a $1k rebate, that was it, now it's only GM's employee pricing program. I believe the GTO sells the same or more then the STI per year. Actually my GTO does ok in the rain, I don't drive in the snow/ Definitely an advantage to STI for snow.

    Either way they are both good cars in their own ways. I wouldn't cross shop the 2. Drive what you like.
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