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Subaru Forester

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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I believe so. Just make sure you get a 16" rim, not a 15" rim, which some earlier Foresters had.

    Bob
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It gave you the slip. ;-)

    Try Subaru's fortunes sinking - can they turn it around? instead.

    Slip, sink ... whatever.

    Steve, Host
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    kumarikumari Member Posts: 72
    Thanks for the tips, Bayview. I drove both the X/LL Bean and the XT on the freeway and there was truly no comparison. The X has got a peppy little engine, but on the crazy freeways of L.A. with the crazy drivers, I'm gonna stick with the most power for the best gas mileage that I can. I'd really prefer an 8 cylinder!! LOL Interesting info about the owners manual "requiring" 91 octane. The 2006 brochure says "recommended", I believe.

    Regarding my dogs and the interior - the LL Bean only comes with that really light beige interior and I just think I would make it dirty in less than a week, even without my dogs in the car. Plus, I have carriers for all of them to ride in, if I really get neurotic about it. LOl I wish the interior and seats came in more of a luggage or saddle tan color. The interior and carpeting in my 14 year old car looks brand new and I credit the dark, almost charcoal grey color to it's staying power.

    So, XT Limited here I come! So far, the best price I've come across was just over $25,000, including the rebate, plus tax & license. I think I can do better if I wait a couple months. What do you guys think? The 2006's can only go down in price as the time approaches to when the 2007's will be released. Eh?

    Samantha
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    bayview6bayview6 Member Posts: 141
    Samantha, sounds like the XT is your cup of tea. I would just run premium gas because it will give you better performance and it leaves fewer deposits in your engine's cylinders and valves. As far as mpg goes, I doubt that you will change your driving style just to save a few bucks. :D

    I have the tan interior and so far it looks good but I expect it to start showing its age as the years roll by. Sometimes those lighter interiors age and mellow nicely and sometimes they don't.....just depends upon the use they get.
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Samantha

    I would definitely use premium grade gas in all Subaru turbos.

    I also agree with regarding the cream leather. Jeep offers a beautiful reddish dark tan, called "Saddle" on their new Commander. I'd love to see Subaru offer something like that. It's similar to the leather on the Legacy Spec B, but a bit more brown in color.

    Bob
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    kumarikumari Member Posts: 72
    Just found out from the dealer, that the 2006 should take a 2005 tire if you remove the styrofoam tool bucket AND the cargo tray. After having what all of you have written on here, I'm gonna have the dealer put a real tire in there as part of my deal. NO way do I want to be stuck in the middle of the boonies with a donut tire!

    Samantha
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    bayview6bayview6 Member Posts: 141
    Samantha, the way I see it the full-size temporary spare that comes with the Forester is not the limiting factor. The problem is that no matter what type of spare you have you can't drive more than 50 miles @50mph because the spare will be more than 1/4 inch circumference greater or lesser than the remaining 3 tires. Drive more than 50 miles and you will fry one or more of the differentials ($$$$).

    Not a problem in the urban areas but there are places out West where 50 miles is nothing.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I did that myself for my wife's 2002 Legacy. I had a steel rim since I got a set of alloys, and just put a new tire on that rim. It was just $70 or so.

    You can call TireRack to do something like that, they'll mount any tire on a steelie and balance it, then ship it right out to your door. So it's not a big deal if the dealer won't do it, you can easily do it yourself.

    At most you would need a longer retaining bolt to hold the spare in place.

    -juice
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    kumarikumari Member Posts: 72
    Thanks for all the tips. I had no idea it was so complicated. Now, all I need is for a dealer to give me the deal that I want and I'm ready to roll! Didn't know about the 1/4" differential in the tire size being so dangerous to drive on. And, I'm wondering why the spare tire, if I get a real tire, wouldn't be the exact same size as the others? Is is because the "fullness" level would be different because it hasn't been driven on?

    Samantha
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    bayview6bayview6 Member Posts: 141
    Samantha, yes, it is complicated. :surprise:

    But at least you will know about it beforehand. I suspect that many 1st time Subaru buyers find out about it after the fact (if at all). In the real world, depending upon how fast the tread on the tires wears, a full size regular tire spare could be substituted for a flat tire within the first 5000 miles and driven without regard to the 50 mile limit. After 5000 miles, one would be taking their chances because of the 1/4 inch circumference limitation.
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    bayview6bayview6 Member Posts: 141
    I'm just guessing with that 5000 mile estimate. For some tires it could be as low as 2000 miles.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, if you can imagine a brand-new tire (your spare), and then a nearly bald tire with all the tread worn off, the worn tire is small in diameter and circumference.

    The spare in this case would actually be bigger.

    But donuts are off by even more, in some cases. That's one of the reasons they're intended for temporary use only.

    -juice
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    bayview6bayview6 Member Posts: 141
    juice, 1/4 inch in a 16" tire circumference is not very much. i doubt that the circumference difference between a regular 16" tire and the temporary spare is that great or otherwise Subaru wouldn't go to it. The fact that one cannot do a 5 wheel rotation shows how critical the 1/4 inch measurement is. The only real use of having a regular tire as a spare is if one is hauling a trailer. People use a real donut tire in non-AWD cars for driving hundreds if not thousands of miles.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thousands of miles on a donut is a scary thought. :surprise:

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I saw an EVO last week with 2 donuts on the rear!

    Bob
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    bayview6bayview6 Member Posts: 141
    A donut's wear bars show up at about 5000 miles. Maybe the EVO's owner as a friend who works at a salvage yard.

    :P
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    kumarikumari Member Posts: 72
    I am SO glad I found this board. I didn't know anything about the donut spare tire or the credit card which gives "Subaru Bucks"! I am applying for the credit card this week, so that I can use it to acually buy the car and then get all the bucks at once (if they allow that!). Then I can put the $500 toward the 7 year service contract!!! And then, next year, I can buy some nifty accessories for the car!

    Now, I read something on herre that the Forester has had problems with the brake rotors warping. Does anyone know anything about this? Has the problem been resolved in the newer models? I tend to ride the brakes anyway, so this is of particular interest to me.

    I also read something on here about shifting into neutral when the car is at a light. I'm talking with an automatic transmission, not a stick shift. I've never heard of this. I'm planning on getting the turbo model. Is that why they have "neutral" and "drive" on the same indent on the gear lever (for lack of a better term - I don't know what it's called on an automatic). I noticed that it's very easy to slip from drive to neutral and vice versa.

    Anyone?

    Samantha
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    growler5growler5 Member Posts: 67
    Subie Bucks - You'll only be able to charge a nominal amount on any credit card for a car purchase. When I bought my '05 Forester X, I could charge only the 2500 down payment on a Visa card (I didn't have the Subie Bucks card at that time). Since the dealer has to pay Mastercard a 5% fee per transaction (or something on that order), he's giving up some of his profit by letting you use a charge card.

    Donut tire - what's your track record for getting flat tires? If you hardly ever got one in the past, I wouldn't worry about the donut vs full-sized tire issue.
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    higgledyhiggledy Member Posts: 28
    I wish I had your driving record. Not that I have a terrible record just one major accident (no one hurt but totaled my car when I was a teen) a few fender benders, and about 4 speeding tickets. Just a lot of headaches and bills.
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    kumarikumari Member Posts: 72
    Does anyone know if the beep for the driver's side seatbelt can be disabled? (Maybe by removing a fuse or something?) The beeper, just on the test drive, drove me nuts! And, sometimes, I just don't like to wear my seatbelt - I'd like to have the option without the distracting beeping.

    I'm also thinking that the daytime lights will (a) use gas and (b) cause the bulbs to wear out faster. From what I have been told, the bulbs are not replaceable individually - you have to buy the entire headlamp and it costs over $300. So, I would like to disable the daytime running light feature, which I think is useless and stupid anyway. If it's hazy or rainy out, I'd just use the regular headlights.

    Samantha
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    kumarikumari Member Posts: 72
    Forgot to mention - this is on the 2006 Forester XT.

    Thanks.
    Samantha
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    fyi, after posting, you may edit your post for 30 minutes. Just click on the Edit button under your post title. :)

    Steve, Host
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    kev_xt_ownerkev_xt_owner Member Posts: 41
    Having some friends and family who are police officers and firemen with the stories and pictures they have, it continues to baffle me that people don't want to do the easy protective act of wearing a seat belt.

    Both the seat belt reminder and the daytime running lamps help improve the safety of your ride -- either in preventing an accident or in surviving one. The daytime running lamps will use gas in that the power to light them ultimately comes from the engine, but you'll come out about even in cost with your insurance discount for having them. They also use the high beams at reduced power; chances are you will use your low beams much more than high beams and your low beams will still be the first to wear out.

    Many people are slow to use regular headlights when they would improve the visibility of their cars, so the always-on daytime running lamps provides a good compromise.
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    growler5growler5 Member Posts: 67
    Hmmm - my better half used to avoid wearing seat belts. "Used to", that is, until she got a job as shift supervisor for a Genesis long-term care facility in southeastern PA. This institution took care of folks with permanent mobility problems, primarily due to severe head trauma injuries.

    Almost all of the patients were young adults who had been in severe automobile accidents. Many of them had not been wearing their seat belts. I don't even want to think about what it must be like to be bed-ridden and to see nothing but a ceiling and four walls for the next 40-50 years just because "I just don't like to wear my seatbelt."

    Please reconsider "fixing" that beeper and just respond what it is trying to tell you. If you "click-it" before starting the engine, you'll never hear it. :)
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    kev_xt_ownerkev_xt_owner Member Posts: 41
    I will eat my words on one part -- I thought the Forester used the high beams for DRLs just like my old car but my 04 XT uses the low beams.

    Kevin
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    pretzelbpretzelb Member Posts: 64
    I tried to read up on all the posts. I'm glad I saw the donut issue but I'm shocked on the seat belt noise. I will say that my girlfriend also wanted to turn that noise off (but I try to not bring it up).

    I have to say I love the way the base Forester drove. It was very fast, quiet, and handled better than the other cars I tested (Saturn VUE, Honda CRV, Jeep Liberty, Honda Element).

    My only concerns or drawbacks are:

    1) It looks too much like a wagon - silly of me to think that but it's true
    2) It sits lower than a typical SUV - I like having that extra height because it's safer
    3) It's capacity is a bit smaller than typical SUV
    4) The interior is kind of ho-hum (opinion)
    5) The dealer is far away

    I'm surprised to read how reliable Subaru is, for some reason I never knew their vehicles were so well made. I guess it shows I'm not a car guy. Only thing left is for me to make up my mind. I've marked this thread to keep up to date on what others find out.
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    losthat1losthat1 Member Posts: 93
    You have highlighted that it was fast, quiet, and handles well. Just add safety, fun to drive, good MPG and easy to park to the equation.

    Your concerns-
    1. Yes it might look like a wagon but it sure doesn't drive like one.
    2. Yes, it sits lower and is easier to get in and out of...why is extra height safer?
    3. Yes, it's a small but boxy vehicle...lots of things fit!
    4. Look at the LLBean!
    5. Move closer to the dealer;-) !! Hopefully you won't need to go there much.

    Good luck whatever you choose...I'd say the VUE would be the next best choice for you. But I thought that interior was ho-hum and the chrome very cheap looking!
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    era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    Actually, I was more interested in the Forester and Impreza base models than my 2006 Legacy 2.5i just because they're cheaper.

    I was forced to choose the Legacy because it has side and curtain airbags as standard.

    The standard side airbags on the Forester and Impreza protect only the driver and front passenger.

    I'm wondering when curtain airbags (for front and rear seats) will be available on the Forester.

    Was 2006 Forester recently redesigned? If so, a few more years to go... If not, maybe in the next redesigned model or never??
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    kumarikumari Member Posts: 72
    I drove most of the vehicles too and found that the Forester and RAV4 were the best handling of the bunch. I'm going for the Forester XT - yes, even though I think it's ugly and boring looking - simply because it BLEW every other small SUV out of the water. The reason it handles and corners so well is BECAUSE it sits lower and has a lower center of gravity. It's the only "SUV" (if you could call it that) that doesn't carry a *rollover warning*.

    If you don't like the Forester, try driving the RAV4 - the interior as well as the exterior has been updated and they make a sport package. I read some reviews of the Saturn VUE and they were not even in the same league as the Forester and RAV4.

    As far as the distance of your dealership goes - can't help you there, but a Porsche mechanic can fix a Subaru Forester because the Porsche Boxter has the type same engine (Boxer engine) as the Forester.

    Hope you find a good car.

    Samantha
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    era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    Extra height is less safe in terms of rollover risks.

    Extra height might be safer when a higher SUV hits a lower passenger car on the side or vice versa, provided that both have good side impact equipment.

    I guess you're talking about the second scenario.

    The Forester is NOT WAY LOWER than big SUVs, a little lower, I would say.

    But, in the world of SUVs, rollover is a BIG thing. And the Forester has the best centre of gravity in its class as Samantha pointed out.

    The 2006 RAV4 also looks awesome. But, I would not choose it because I have to pay around $38,000 to get side & curtain airbags.

    The Forester has side airbags as standard on every model.

    The CR-V has six standard airbags. So, it might be your choice if airbag protection is your priority.

    Try the Outback, just in case. A little more bucks than the Forester. But, it's a litte higher than the Forester and has six standard airbags.
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    prosaprosa Member Posts: 280
    Was 2006 Forester recently redesigned? If so, a few more years to go... If not, maybe in the next redesigned model or never??

    The Forester got a significant refreshing for MY2006, but not a full redesign. While nothing's been officially announced, the next full redesign probably will come in MY2008 along with the Impreza.
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    era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    :mad: The 2006 RAV4 also looks awesome. But, I would not choose it because I have to pay around $38,000 to get side & curtain airbags.

    Oooooops. I thought I was writing on a Canadian forum. $38,000 is the maxed out RAV4 price in Canada. You can get side & curtain airbags as an option even on the base model in the States. Some people (on the RAV4 forum) saw those extra airbags on the base model. I only envy American customers.

    Yes, the RAV4 is an awesome alternative to the Forester in the States.
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    dstew1dstew1 Member Posts: 275
    Try the Outback, just in case. A little more bucks than the Forester. But, it's a litte higher than the Forester and has six standard airbags.


    I could be wrong, but I think the Forester has a higher seating position than the Outback. The Outback's ground clearance may be better, but the seats are lower as whenever I drive one (usually a dealer loaner when my Forester is in for maintenance) I notice that I have to "fall into it" more or less when compared to the Forester. Also I feel closer to the road when driving an Outback.

    Doug
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Edmunds' RAV4 tester (AWD V6) ran $32.7k, and didn't have the 3rd row, so that would push it up to $33.5k or so. And that's without NAV.

    I don't think prices will overlap much with the Forester, FWIW. At least not the V6/Limiteds.

    Side curtains will likely show up for MY2008. Forester earned 5/5 stars in NHTSA side impact tests, and a Good rating from IIHS, so there hasn't been a big incentive to invest a lot of money to improve those scores (they could move up to "Best Pick" in IIHS tests, but that's it).

    The existing side air bags do protect the head of the front passengers. Most Forester owners put kids in the back, and the curtains aren't really designed to protect little tots anyway. It would do me no good, in other words. It protects adults, medium to large sized primarily.

    -juice
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    pretzelbpretzelb Member Posts: 64
    Regarding the height of the Forester, some of it's unique to me. I never feared a roll over because I drive pretty slow. I suppose I should fear one but that's a different story.

    I equate height with safety in how it allows you to see more. I feel safer when I can see over my fellow drivers. I feel there is more potential danger when I can't see exactly what is behind that GMC Yukon or Ford Expedition.

    I only did a quick eyeball visual in a parking lot but from what I could tell the Forester was about 6-12 inches higher than a typical sedan, but it was 6-12 inches lower than an average sized truck or SUV. Just an observation.

    If I can believe the realibility and quality ratings on Subaru, it's hard to not like the Forester based on performance. I have yet to drive the RAV4 but nothing has come close in handling and power yet. My father would say that makes the decision easy, but I have a "foolish" streak in me that wants to consider the "look" of the car. Then again, I'm actually looking that the Honda Element so I'd say it's safe to say my tastes are questionable. ;)
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    era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    I guess you're right. I was talking about ground clearance. The Outback has a little higher ground clearance.
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    era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    Over U$32K for RAV4? I also think that's too much.

    I was looking at the 4x4 Base 4-Cyl Automatic Base Price:
    $21,700. Similar to the Forester, isn't it?

    I just noticed there're 4x2 models as well.

    In Canada, 4x4 only (same with the Highlander).
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    era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    Wow, the Element! Everybody has different tastes. Whatever you choose is the best for you.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Indeed, as is typical for Toyota, you can get a very basic model, or one that is completely loaded. The spread is about $12 grand or maybe more!

    Forester's equipment level lies somewhere in the middle.

    -juice
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    p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    "The problem is that no matter what type of spare you have you can't drive more than 50 miles @50mph because the spare will be more than 1/4 inch circumference greater or lesser than the remaining 3 tires. Drive more than 50 miles and you will fry one or more of the differentials ($$$$)."

    Huh!?!? Yours truly has driven well over 50 miles at 75 mph on a couple of occasions with absolutely no harm done (this on a full-size spare).

    The 50 miles @ 50mph formula is the standard guideline for temp spares but certainly doesn't apply to full-size spares. Sure you shouldn't drive forever with a temp spare that has significantly less or more tread than the other 3 tires but you're not going to fry anything if you only go a couple hundred miles and I know of no restriction on max speed with a full-size spare.

    -Frank
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    era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    http://www.iihs.org/news/2006/iihs_news_010806.pdf

    http://www.iihs.org/news/2006/pr010806.html

    There're only 6 out of 44 SUVs that earned the GOOD mark in the IIHS report on REAR CRASH PROTECTION (released on Jan. 8th).

    Ford Freestyle
    Honda Pilot
    Jeep Grand Cherokee
    Land Rover LR3
    Subaru Forester
    Volvo XC90

    The Forester is the ONLY compact SUV!
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    stlawrencestlawrence Member Posts: 3
    We are looking in the Washington DC area for an LL Bean Forester in Evergreen. There are few to none to be had (there was one, and it sold). Why is this? Does Subaru do car production in batches, based on color? Can we expect more Evergreens to come down the line?

    What do you guys think of the Evergreen? We love the green of the Outback LL Bean, but are picking the Evergreen based on the color chip in the brochure.

    When is the new model year for Foresters? Are we late in the model year? I read in one post that the 2007 models would be out in May. That seems awfully early, isn't it?

    Any significant changes expected in 2007? (Read side curtain airbags?)

    Thanks.
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    bayview6bayview6 Member Posts: 141
    Frank, how far did you drive on the full-size spare? I was just relating what SoA told me. Seems like having a regular tire as a spare might be the way to go after all.
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The Evergreen Forester is GREAT looking! I have seen a few. Have you checked FitsMall (White Flint and Gaithersburg, MD). They usully have a great selection, and super prices. We (son & I) just bought 2 new Imprezas (WRX & Outback Sport SE) at their Gaithersburg store. The Outback Sport (son's car) is 2-tone gray. My son almost picked the Evergreen, but preferred the black interior, which wasn't available with the OBS.

    Subaru usually releases their new models begining in the late spring, and ending in the late summer, depending on the model.

    Production scheduling of colors? I don't know how Subaru does that.

    Bob
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    bruzeebruzee Member Posts: 3
    Any advantage or disadvantage between the automatic and manual transmission AWD system? Also, test drove the automatic 2.5X, it was satisfactory but being used to a manual drive, it seemed to grunt a bit on the shift. Anyone own a 05 or 06 manual and feel it was a much better choice? In some brands, where both types are available in the same class, dealers won't even stock the manual drive and pretty much claim that the automatics are so much better and less maintenance nowadays that manuals are all but obsolete.
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    pretzelbpretzelb Member Posts: 64
    In case anyone is keep score at home ... I went for my second round of test drives and finally got to try a RAV4, which I found to be a very nice vehicle. I was surprised that the 4c engine was pretty peppy. The 4c engine on the CRV wasn't bad but it wasn't great so I expected the RAV4 to be the same - I guess Toyota has an edge on Honda in that area (I have no experience with Honda, Toyota, or Subaru so it's all new to me).

    But I made the trip to the Subaru dealer again to try the Forester to compare while the RAV4 was fresh in my mind. Since the dealer is on an access road to a highway and traffic goes fast, it took me about 30 seconds to declare the Forester the best handling and accelerating vehicle ... again. It's not close like it is with the CRV and RAV4, it's clearer better. This time I had the premium package on a 2.5x. The extra features were nice but I'm not sure they're something I would want. I haven't tried an LL Bean model but that is really jacking the price and making it an unfair comparison to the other stuff I've looked at.

    I still find the cargo capacity, bells & whistles, layout, and the finish of the CRV and RAV4 to be better than the Forester. For me, it's come down to engine/handling vs the features/cargo. I realize that's a silly comparison for some but so far it's enough to confuse me. The sad part is that I probably need to wait for the 6c RAV4 to come out next month so I can do a fair comparison. I was hoping to make a decision this month.

    Oh, FWIW, I talked to the sales guy and he said you can take out the foam storage tray insert and place a full sized spare in the back if you wish.
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    leo2633leo2633 Member Posts: 589
    I can't speak to the '05 or '06, but I can offer you some insight into my own Subaru test drives. We have a 2001 Forester and a 2003 Outback, both with the 5 speed manual transmission and the 2.5 engine (non-turbo). We test drove the manual and automatic versions of both vehicles before buying them. In both cases, the manual transmission versions were noticeably more responsive. We have no regrets on having bought the 5 speed versions. However, it may be an apples-to-oranges comparison with the models you are looking at, since the 2.5 engine now has a bit more horsepower.

    Regarding the AWD systems, I can only tell you that the system used on the 5 speed version works extremely well, and is unnoticeable to the driver. It's always "on" and it always works! I have no experience with the various systems(s) used on the automatic transmission versions, other than having test-driven them.

    I would definitely recommend test driving a 5 speed manual before making a decision, even if you have to travel some distance to another dealer who has one in stock.

    I hope this helps.

    Len
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    bruzeebruzee Member Posts: 3
    Thank you for the info. I am driving an 18 year old 4 cylinder, 2-WD, compact Toyota sedan with 5-speed, and it may sound comical but I imagine it to have more pick-up than the brand new 4-cylinder automatics in the same class. It must just be the ability to control the acceleration more closely. Checked the local inventory and it seems dealers stock mostly is automatics with some base model 2.5X in manual which would at least suffice for a test drive.
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    bruzeebruzee Member Posts: 3
    The exterior of the RAV4 is great if you can get over the huge spare tire on the back door. Not ever owning a SUV, I would like to know if it makes a great deal of difference to have the tire off the back hatch and have a swing up hatch door or to use a side swing door like the RAV4? The RAV4 has stability control and traction control standard and normally is 2WD unless slippage detected. There is a manual switch to lock the center differential to set a 55/45 torque split to front and rear wheels, however it automatically disengages itself at speeds over 25 MPH or if you hit the brakes. Does that seem to really place a limited use on the AWD set-up? How functional is that system compared to the Subaru AWD on the manual 2.5X w/premium package which has the normal 50-50 torque split between front and back wheels and also has a limited slip rear differential. Note: The RAV4 also has traction control and stability control standard which is not available on Subarus. Anybody a mechanical wizard here and can answer? I am playing the baffled old woman card here and would appreciate knowing more. In the looks department, the RAV4 definitly had the more comfy front and back seat interior with back headrests that could be folded down out of obstructing rear view without removal, and rear levers by the hatch door that would flip the back seats down flat. The cargo area is also larger without the side obstructions as was on the Forester.
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    era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    The FULL-TIME AWD, along with its boxer engine and low center of gravity, 4-channel ABS and the third best safety ratings from IIHS (only behind Volvo and Saab), is the bread and butter for Subaru.

    Any AWD system of Toyota is NO match whatsoever for Subaru's legendary AWD.

    Subaru offers traction and stability control only for high-end models like the Outback 3.0 VDC and the B9 Tribeca.

    But, because of its low center of gravity and full-time AWD, the Forester is much better than any small SUVs without the two control systems. That means low rollover risks.

    And that's why the CR-V and RAV4 with their higher center of gravity and part-time AWD have to add them to compensate for their shortcomings.

    Still, I hope Subaru will add those two control features on the Forester as well (2008?, who knows).

    I'm waiting for a new Forester with six standard airbags. My kids are big enough to deserve some head injury protection in the rear seat.
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