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Comments
Think the new Civic Si is awesome. Mazda 3 is fun to drive but sucky gas mileage, Corolla pretty good car but bland even XRS.
Funny think is the new Si is faster than the 70 442 which was rated at 0-60 mph in 7 seconds. But with traction an tires back then would burn rubber in 3 gears and would take about 150 feet to stop from 60 mph and cornered like a pig in mud.
So much improvement in traction, performance , handling and mpg. It is amazing what 35 years of technology will do
Cruis'n in 6th :shades: , Honda by choice
MidCow
z71bill- Pat was right, I was saying the 3 is more of a drivers cars in that category (and the 6 in it's mid-size category), not a comparison to a BMW. Anymore than you would compare a BMW to a Ferrari. I have to diagree, though, that to be an enthusiast you have to drive a BMW- an "enthusiast" in my mind is someone who likes to push a better-handling vehicle to it's limits (when appropriate), whatever classifcation that car may be. Someone driving an old 240Z, a Volvo P1800, an MGB, a '92 Mustang GT, etc- could all be called enthusiasts. I drove a 325, a G35, an Acura TL when shopping last year; each has some strong attributes, the BMW certainly the King of the Hill. What sent me to the "econo" route was I just couldn't justify 10-12K more for a car that I have to park all around Boston with knuckleheads banging their doors into it in many parking lots; BMW's also get stolen there- a lot. Yes, rear-drivers with a 50-50 (or so) weight bias and German-tuned suspension will walk all over a Mazda in terms of "feel"- but thats way out of context.
Anyhow, sorry for the long dialog but if I sit at the computer longer it's less time my wife can complain to me.
Tonight, I drove by the Honda dealer on my way home and decided to go ahead and check out the new Civic. They only had automatics in stock and told me it'd be a few weeks for a 5-speed. I test drove an EX automatic and was very impressed. It drives like a larger car, rides great, has a decent amount of power. For comparison sake, I went back to the Mazda dealer and drove a 3 s automatic this time. The Mazda is definitely the sportier of the two (handling in particular). I drove it on the same loop as the Civic and performance of the automatic 3 and automatic Civic are almost identical. I'm thinking both do 0-60 in the low 9's.
I'm still debating whether I want to go with a manual or automatic. I've always preferred manuals, but in Atlanta traffic shifting does wear me down sometimes. I guess I'm getting older. Anyway, I think I'll wait to drive a 5-speed Civic before I buy, I've been waiting a few months anyway.
I will say this- if I had to choose today, the Mazda would probably be my pick. I won't pay MSRP (or over) for the Civic and the Mazda dealer will give some discount on the 3. They'll match Edmunds TMV price.
I think the Civic will be a huge hit. But I also think it continues to lose its "fun to drive" factor with every redesign. As someone who has loved Hondas his whole life, it's sad to see them go the way of Toyota. Making numb, disconnected appliances instead of gutsy, zippy little cars like my '85 Civic was. I'm holding out hope that maybe the upcoming Honda Fit will bring some of that back.
I hear you. What occurs to me is that since Toyota and Honda have premium brands, are they arranging their lineup across both brands? Many complain about Toyota's being bland, but who would say the same for Lexus? You mention zippy Civics of days gone by; maybe, Honda has moved their mojo, up the ladder to the Si rung and from there to the Acura RSX. In other words, both Toyota and Honda are making appliances for the middle of the roaders in their namebrands and other (more interesting) models in their premium brands. Personally, I prefer the Mazda way: putting zoom into everything they design.
I don't get their move to be more like Toyota. The Accord redesign was a flop. I just fail to understand who they are going after with their cars now. Ever since the 01 Civic redesign Honda has slipped up. Don't get me wrong the Civic is a good car they aren't going after the same audience that made the 92-95 and 96-00 Civic a success. The new Civic looks like a Saturn and the Accord looked like a Buick. What happened?
Honda chose to divide up the gauges, leaving the traditional analog tachometer in the traditional location, viewed through the steering wheel, and placing a digital speedometer and digital gas and temperature gauges up at the base of the windshield. Honda calls it a two-tier instrument panel and says the design places the speedometer up high in the driver's field of vision.
We think it looks kind of silly, but our problem with it isn't purely aesthetic. In our preferred seating position, which is different for everyone, the rim of the steering wheel completely blocked the upper-tier gauges from view. Uh, hello?
Whatever. Maybe the kids will like it.
Meade
With the arrival of the new Civics, I'm being asked what I think of the car.
Frankly, I'm cautious.
Because our little microcosm of a repair shop has seen some disturbing trends in the Honda line of products in the last few years.
It started off with the full sized Odyssey that had a number of problems and recalls. Then we noted the failure of automatic transmissions in V6 Accords at an early stage in their lives. The old Civic was up to its ears in complaints about the suspension. So much so, that a secret warranty exists for failed shock absorbers on the post 2001 Civic.
But our little shop has already replaced the drive shafts in a multitude of late model CRVs at over $800 a go and this week, we got a call from a client with a 2003 Element, with 68,000 Km (40,000 miles) on the clock, whose transmission had failed, leaving him stranded in Boston.
(Fly home sir, at least a week for a replacement!)
So, my reaction is: if you can wait to buy the new Civic, or for that matter any Honda, do so, because of late, the lads at Honda San have not been living up to their reputation.
If you must buy an Asian vehicle right now, think Toyota, Nissan or Hyundai.
Oh yes, and our first choice, Mazda3 or 6.
Gawsh, I just love it when the experts agree with me. :shades:
Meade
Wouldn't it be great if it was possible to get $2k off the Mazda3 sticker! Guess only time will tell. Glad I'm patient.
http://www.baileycar.com/baileyblog.html
Meade
Well its the end of the year clearence so of couurse you are going to see discounts of 600 dollars on Mazda 3's. Honda is discounting 05 Civics as well. With the 6 it is discounted 5K off because it doesn't have the interior room of the Accord or Altima. As for the Civic it meant dent Mazda 3 Sales but I don;t think its going to do a whole lot. The reason I think that is because the Civic is not styled like it should be on the exterior. I think like the Accord a few years ago it might sell good its first year but I think sales will drop off after that because the styling of it. The Civic's styling is love or hate.
"Wouldn't it be great if it was possible to get $2k off the Mazda3 sticker! Guess only time will tell. Glad I'm patient."
Well I'm sure you can get some price off of the sticker because after all you are not paying MSRP. I paid 1700 dollars under MSRP for a brand new 2002 Acura CL in September of 2001.
We know about the Odyessy problems but check out Consumer Reports issue on reliabity earlier this year. Of any car segment mini-vans have the most problems over their span of lifetime(pg 16 April 2005 issue.) The Odyessy(99-04) still has an average to above average reliability record.
"Then we noted the failure of automatic transmissions in V6 Accords at an early stage in their lives."
Yes a broken tranny is not a good thing at all. but I think it was a one time deal at Honda for the Accord that is.
"But our little shop has already replaced the drive shafts in a multitude of late model CRVs at over $800 a go and this week, we got a call from a client with a 2003 Element, with 68,000 Km (40,000 miles) on the clock, whose transmission had failed, leaving him stranded in Boston."
Now those incidents worry me.
"The old Civic was up to its ears in complaints about the suspension. So much so, that a secret warranty exists for failed shock absorbers on the post 2001 Civic."
Yes the Civic did have complaints about the suspension but they did correct them after the 01 model. Keep in mind Honda took away the double wishobone suspension on the Civic starting with the 01 model so no wonder for the suspension problems. As for the shock absorbers what is the warranty length on those absorbers?
If you must buy an Asian vehicle right now, think Toyota, Nissan or Hyundai.
I am not thinking Nissan. The Sentra's reliability record of recent has not been good at all. The current Altima's reliability record in CR(02-04) has been shaky. The 93-97 and 98-01 Altima's had a rock solid reliability record.
Meade
Have you driven the Matrix/Vibe? I drove one of my friend's Vibe GTs on the backroads near my house. It handled and accelerated more like something made by Buick than by Toyota, and it felt every bit like the tall minivan wannabe it is than the sporty, low-slung hatch that my 3 is.
More vibrant paint? C'mon. My 3 is red and its paint is metallic -- meaning it sparkles in the sun. The Matrix's red is flat red. Put the two next to each other in the sun and see which brings the most accolades.
The Matrix/Vibe is not a bad car for what it is. But keep in mind that it's not included in this comparison thread, so let's get back to comparing the Mazda3 to Toyota's grocery-getter.
Meade
If you got rid of the Protege and don't like Honda or Toyota what are you driving now? It sounds like you are leaning towards a Mazda3. I think it is a great sporty car, but the Si is going to give it a run for its money!.
cruis'n 6-speed,
MidCow
I have a sunlight silver mazda3s with all the fixins except a navigation system. In fairness to the 3s a four door a better comparison would be the civic sedan. I dont think the 2 door sport is an appropriate comparison. Anyway I wouldn't give up my baby for it any day even if it were
interestingly, the new civic is my least favorite of the cars, even though i've been a honda diehard for years. i think the interior of the 06 civic is absurd. the way the dash bulges out toward you and the instrument panel is split and covered in weird blue decals... i don't know, there were some nice things about it, and the stick (non si) drove fairly well, but on the whole i think they missed the mark.
A 5-speed accord was one of the best handling cars i've driven, and the corolla xrs was quite nice, except for some strange revving that occurred during shifting, but ultimately i think the mazda 3 is more of what i'm looking for:
-pretty good gas mileage (as good as the civic si, i think)
-versatile with the hatchback
-good handling and acceleration
-nice look
-reasonable price.
(i just wish it came with an mp3 input jack like the new civic. cds are going the way of the cassette.)
Will that be enough to judge the Corolla as boring? Well how about lets talk to those people who actually drives a car in condition that's requires good handling. Like in the streets and highways of Europe. At present the Corolla Runx and Verso outsells Mazda and Civic in Europe.
So basically what you're saying is the Corolla Runx and Verso are sportier (and better handlers) because they sell better then the Mazda and Honda in Europe. You have too many logic gaps in your reasoning, there are so many other factors that contribute to the Corolla's sucess in Europe.
After driving the new Civic, I've also thought about the Accord in addition to the Mazda3. The Civic drives well, but I was a little disappointed with the power, the handling was too soft and the interior is way to "anti-Honda" for me. Money is a concern for me (I'm trying to keep the price under $18k), but the '06 Accord VP is looking pretty sweet to me. All it needs is an upgrade from the standard 2-speaker stereo and it has most everything the LX has. The black door handles and mirrors aren't especially good looking, but I could deal.
The downside, of course, is that it doesn't have quite the athletic moves of the Mazda3 and isn't quite as nice looking either. But, it is a LOT of car for the money. A local dealer is willing to sell an Accord VP 5-speed for $17,200+ TTL. The best quote I've gotten for the Mazda3 Touring 4-door is $17,420 + TTL. Tough decision.
I also agree with wishing the Mazda3 (and Accord for that matter) had an AUX input jack. It's hard to believe that Mazda hasn't added this yet, especially considering the demographic it is marketed to. We need a way to use our iPods!
Anyway, I'm hoping to make a decision in the next few days.
There are various factors contributing to the Corolla's superior sales in Europe. For an example, there may be other features that the Corolla has that the other cars in its segment lack which would account for its better sales.
Let's talk about the mountains of southwest Virginia and West Virginia, where my Mazda3 hatch has spent a good thousand of its 10,000 miles! And I'm talking backroads and the Blue Ridge Parkway for at least half of that mileage.
BTW, the "roads near my house" I was referring to are two-lane country roads with hairpin curves and a lot of twisties -- roads where the speed limit is indicated by signs that say "End Posted Limit" instead of posting an exact speed limit. Guess it was easy to envision 25-mph streets of surburbia when I said that. Sorry.
And yes, the Mazda3, like my Protege ES that preceded it, outperformed my friend's Vibe GT on those roads. We went there specifically to put the cars against each other, and even he admitted the 3 won the contest. And this wasn't just a family get-together -- this was a meet of Mazda enthusiasts held at my house last year -- the fifth of its kind that I've organized since 2000. (We were in a Vibe because its owner had just traded a 2000 Protege ES for it.) We had another Mazda owner, a guy who bought a 6i sedan a couple of years ago, take the same backroads route driving the 3 hatch. Near the end of the route, he remarked quite loudly, "Man, I wish I'd waited for a 3!"
Meade
Aside from that you will find a lot of crazy drivers that doesnt follow regulations and drives too fast. Imagine a girl in a Smart and drives 1200Km/hr in a highway. I wouldnt do that. Not in a Smart.
Let me tell you this, I'm more cofortable driving here than in Europe.
Correction, 120Km/hr. 1200Km/Hr? That would be a jet plane.
But I gotta tell ya -- I had to look twice before I realized it was a new one. From the rear, it just doesn't look all that much different. Now, from the front, that's another story. but overall I think it looks more American than Japanese. From the side? Flat and boring as a pancake. I wasn't too terribly impressed, and what I mean is, this car doesn't seem to be enough of a "step" to stand as Honda's entry-level standard for the next three or four years while Mazda continues to make changes and Nissan and Toyota are poised to strike with new small-car designs. The car just looked a little too bland and conservative. Don't dig too deeply, gentlemen -- I know those are subjective remarks.
I will say this -- that high-mounted, white digital speedo was no problem to read as I passed by, even through my passenger-side window. If it was so bright and legible from 15 feet away, I can only imagine how distracting it is inside the car.
Meade
But, if you want utility and economy, the Vibe/Matrix is best. It has ENORMOUS cargo capacity (54 cu. ft.), handles well, and gets 30/36 w/MT (not the GT model, just the FWD). All for $15K, or less. My wife & I got real world #'s of 32 MPG, mixed, but have gotten 36 MPG on mostly highway driving. We've had 5 people, w/all equipment, for ski trips, no problem. It is more of an alternative to an SUV than a mini-van, though, appearances aside...
I love the black interior on the Mazda3 s except for the checked pattern. Some have red checks and some blue. It's a minor complaint and it can be solved by getting black leather. I'm just not much of a leather fan. But at least it isn't ivory or light gray like the Civic, Corolla and basically every other econo-box out there.
I agree: black interiors appear both more elegant and sporty. On the other hand one of the drawbacks of the black interior is heat-retention; let your car lie in the sun for half an hour to experience this. Plus, if you have slobbering pets, lively children or sloppy passengers your chances of a clean interior are let us say compromised.
By the way some of the Mazda3 interiors are beige. :surprise:
And just because an engine is bigger or you get an inch more head room, whatever it may be, doesn't make one car better than another. I think comparisons here should be a lot more objective.
Another way of looking at this matter : the level of subcompact and compact cars has improved so much in recent times, that now they are ALL beyond econo-boxes.
comparisons here should be a lot more objective
I agree. Actually, one of the ways of being objective is by providing specific improvements and advantages like more headroom, more legroom, etc. Certainly, we've all been in a back seat where we felt we could have been more comfortable if there was a bit more room. Getting nit-picky about these though becomes a bit tiring.
p.s. If you don't mind me asking how did you come up with your moniker?
Build and quality wise, the corolla wins, followed by the honda, then the mazda 3. The corolla LE was very nicely done and refined, while the inside of the S still felt sturdy and well built. The civic was, well, a civic-relatively decent interior, but the doors still felt cheap and light weight when closing them compared to a corolla. The mazda was straight on tacky, the radio itself felt hollow when I was pushing the buttons, and the door could almost be closed by a light breeze.
The mazda 3 I believe was the roomiest car(or least from in the drivers seat). The rear was pleasant to sit in even for moderately long trips, while the suspension was not overly harsh. Then came the corolla (not s or xrs) which had mild seating space in both the front and the back seats, for taller drivers the back would probably only be able to seat short people, or little kids/babies. The civics probably really didn't even need back doors because when I had set the seat to fit my height(5' 7") neither the dealer, my brother, mom, dad, NO ONE could easily sit in the back and not complain after 15 minutes or so.
As far as pricing goes unless if you're planning on selling your car the toyota ranks first with second highest resell value in the group, while also being the most cheapest car in the group. Its mpg is around the honda civics, but the build quality, reliabilty, and what not really push this car up on the value list. The civic with its so-so interior and overall build quality is probably the most expensive of the bunch, but its resell value also ranks the highest contributing to the extra dollars placed on sales tags. The mazda I must admit is probably the least economic of the bunch. You pay somewhere in between a corolla and civic, but the interior is the tackiest, and all for a bigger engine that yeilds the WORST mpg outta the three cars. Adding to it the fact that mazdas tend to be poor resell cars, this car is the worst economical choice outta the three.
Overall, the civic comes out first being a relatively fun car to drive, while having moderate build quality, and over value(including resell value). The toyota is second in that sure, its a piece of crap on the race track, but on the streets for decent driving the Corolla S looks the best, while the LE gives provides many of the comforts of those other luxury cars out there, without the wallet bustin price tags. The mazda 3, ranks last in that, the only reason you'd buy it, is for a car with lots of torque for your buck, you like the look, or its a hand-me-down from your older sibling. The car is expensive overall, REALLY tacky interior, doesn't provide the race car confidence in handling it should to be a true "fun car", and reliabilty is not up to par with Honda and Corolla.
I've never heard the comment tacky associated with a Mazda3 until now.
When you assert that the Corolla S looks the best you don't provide any clue on which you base this judgement so it ends up as a personal comment. Moreover, based on earlier postings here this view is not shared by many.
I think your statement reliabilty is not up to par with Honda and Corolla is outdated. Based on years of excellent ratings by Consumer Reports a fairer description of the reliability of the Mazda3 would be something like "although traditionally the Honda and Corolla rate highest in reliability, the Mazda3 and its predecessor the Protege share a long history of excellent reliability".
p.s. What model and transmission of each car did you drive?
And the resulting 2006 Honda Civic is sleeker, more powerful and better performing than any Civic before it. Fact is, the new iteration is undeniably the best and most interesting Civic Honda has ever produced.
In other words, it's better than a Civic of old, which is good news. I think similar things can be said for the Corolla and the Mazda3, they just keep on improving them.
I think we are due for another comparo of sporty compacts by Edmunds soon.
I think it's nice to own a car by a company that leads the pack in innovation. Mazda always comes out with the new ideas first, and a year or two later, everyone else comes along with an imitation of Mazda's lead. Flattery? I guess.
Case in point: Protege5 in 2002. Mazda brings the five-door sport wagon back to North America. Three years later, everyone else has one too. (Even Audi and Mercedes!) Some even have gone so far to name their cars like Mazda: i.e. Spectra5.
Another one: Miata. Mazda gives the world the affordable 2-seater convertible roadster in 1989. It didn't take Honda but about a decade to bring out their version, and now even Pontiac is offering a competitor. A little late, though; the Miata is already the best-selling roadster of all time.
It's a lot easier to look at an existing design and copy it (or try to make it better), like everyone else is doing, rather than come up with the design in the first place, which is what Mazda does.
I'm waiting to see how long it takes the other guys to bring out their copies of the Mazda5. They'll come -- just watch.
Meade
Each car company does it own thing. I believe every car company does takes some things from others - that's normal business. Who do you think Mazda took a lot of their ideas from and got to where they are? Probably Toyota and Honda because they are still the leaders in the industry.
The one where the Mazda3 received first place and the Civic came in second?
The one that said of the Mazda3:
Most economy sedans feel like a compromise. The 2005 Mazda 3 isn't one of them. Its level of refinement is far beyond that of the others. Drive it and you'd swear you were in a car from a different class, a higher class. Drive it and you smile. ... Sporty yet upscale, nimble yet comfortable, the 2005 Mazda 3 is a dream car among economy sedans. It's the new Jetta VW should have built. Need an affordable compact car this year? Buy this one.
Of the 2005 Civic, it said ...
Granted, the seventh-generation Civic no longer has the performance and refinement to keep up with the Mazda 3, but it still offers a pleasant driving experience and outstanding fuel economy.
Meade