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Audi A4 Lease Questions

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Comments

  • Hi Chuck. Audi is running a special lease program on the '07 A4 3.2 Avant right now. Its program varies by term and mileage allowance. For now I am going to assume that you are interested in a 36 month lease with 15,000 miles per year. Let me know if you want something different. Through June 4th, Audi Financial Services' buy rate lease money factor and residual value for a 36 month lease of this car with 15,000 miles per year are .00030 and 49%, respectively.

    Car_man
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  • Hi eurocarlov. It is difficult for me to say how much it would cost to get out of your Murano lease at this point, but I suspect that it will be pretty expensive. What I can do is tell you how much the A4 that you are interested in would cost to lease without taking the Murano into account. In order for me to do so, I need you to provide me with the MSRP and approximate selling price of the exact car that you want. Let me know what these numbers are and I will use Audi's lease program to estimate your payment.

    Car_man
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    Prices Paid Forum
  • Here's the information that you're looking for, Jason. Through June 4th, Audi Financial Services' buy rate lease money factor and residual value for a 36 month lease of a 2007 Audi A4 2.0T Convertible without quattro with 12,000 miles per year are .00160 and 59%, respectively. This car's 10,000 mile per year residual value would be 1% higher.

    Car_man
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    Prices Paid Forum
  • Greetings Donna. The money factor that you were quoted for this car is right in line with Audi Financial Services' current buy rate for it. That is a good thing. Now let's take a look at the selling price that you were quoted. A base '07 A4 2.0T Convertible with quattro has a spread of $3,000 between its full MSRP and its dealer invoice price. I am not personally familiar with what the market is like for this model in your area right now, but the $600 discount that you are being given leaves a lot of room to play with. It wouldn't hurt to comparison shop with another dealer or two to see if you can beat this offer. Also, make sure to stop by the following discussion to see how much other community members have paid for similar vehicles lately: "Audi A4: Prices Paid & Buying Experience".

    Car_man
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    Prices Paid Forum
  • Hi fuzlbutt. More likely than not the bank that you are leasing through will not negotiate your car's end of term purchase price. Having said this, banks occasionally will so give it a shot. Please a call to the Audi Financial Services, or whichever bank you are leasing your car through, a month or two before the scheduled end of your lease and see what they say. Make sure to give the impression that you are right around your mileage allowance. The fact that you are way under will make your car more attractive to them. If your initial contact is unwilling to work with you, try escalating your negotiation attempt to a manager. There's no guarantee that it will work, but you don't have anything to lose by trying. Good luck.

    Car_man
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    Prices Paid Forum
  • Hello seana. More likely than not the bank that you are leasing through will not negotiate your car's end of term purchase price. If your initial contact at the bank that you are leasing through is unwilling to work with you, try escalating your negotiation attempt to a manager. There's no guarantee that it will work, but you don't have anything to lose by trying. Good luck.

    Car_man
    Host
    Prices Paid Forum
  • Welcome back, Craig. I know what you mean about needing another German vehicle. Through June 4th, Audi Financial Services' buy rate lease money factor and residual value for a 24 month lease of a 2007 A4 2.0T Sedan with quattro and 12,000 miles per year are .00054 and 63%, respectively. The numbers for an otherwise identical 36 month lease are .00054 and 55%. If you were to lease a 2007 Audi A4 3.2 Sedan with quattro and 12,000 miles per year through AFS right now for 24 months, its buy rate lease money factor and residual value should be .00050 and 60%. The numbers for an otherwise identical 36 month lease are .00050 and 52%. If you were to lease either of these cars with only 10,000 miles per year, their residual values would be 1% higher.

    Car_man
    Host
    Prices Paid Forum
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    You completely misunderstood my post. I am not talking about early termination of the lease, and I am not talking about breach of contract. I am talking about purchasing the car pursuant to the contract.

    Specifically, I am talking about buying the car at the end of the lease, or buying it during the lease if you choose. Most companies will let you buyout the lease at the residual plus remaining payments during the lease. All will let you buy at the end of the lease at the negotiated residual.

    What Audi does that is unconscionable is permit you, but only you, to buy out the lease at your negotiated residual. So, if you want to trade the car in during the lease to a dealer and have them purchase it from Audi, the dealer cannot buy it at the negotiated residual. Instead, they can only buy it at what Audi describes as "Fair Market Value", which is a special quote they create for the particular dealer.

    The "Fair Market Value" differs depending on who the dealer is. For me, at the end of my lease, my residual buyout price was 19k. So I can buy the car for 19k, and pay no disposition fee or wear and tear. However, a dealer cannot buy the car from Audi for 19k, but only at the "FMV", which in my case was $1,500 more than my residual. Essentially, it constricts your ability to get out of your lease by having someone buy the lease out on your behalf.

    Even worse, despite claiming that the dealer purchase price of $20,500 (a non-Audi/VW dealer) was based on FMV, when I took my car into Audi, they called and got a payoff amount of 18k, which is 1k less than I can buy the car for and 2.5k less than what a non Audi/VW dealer can buy the car for. If you want to sell it to a third party at the end of your lease, you can't do that at your negotiated price either.

    Other finance companies DO NOT do this. With other companies, the buyout price is the buyout price, regardless of the purchaser. This is simply a way for Audi to prevent you from getting into a non-Audi. It is a customer hostile policy that according to Audi is non-negotiable. I have no problems with incentives for repurchase, all companies do that, but this goes well beyond that.

    Moreover, while it would seem to be a simple solution to just buy the car from Audi at your price and turn it over to a dealer at that same price, you can't do that either without incurring significant tax liability (8.5% in California) for the privilege of owning the car for five minutes).

    So even though Audi/VW will end up losing money on the car by having it turned it rather than purchased at the residual (when factoring in transport costs and auction results), they do it anyway. The policy makes no sense, is customer unfriendly, and is counter to the manner in which other companies run their leasing programs.
  • dm13850dm13850 Posts: 13
    Good information to know, but I'm not sure I understand why this is a "way for Audi to prevent you from getting into a non-Audi." Don't you have this problem regardless of what car you buy after the lease is over?

    Also, this doesn't strike me as something that most people would care about. Someone who keeps the car for the entire lease period with normal wear and miles (as most do, I assume) would be fine. Again, it's good to understand their policy, but I think trying to steer people away from leasing with AFS for this reason might be a bit extreme.

    Just my $0.02...
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    Perhaps prevent was the wrong choice of words. The policy does not prevent you from getting into a non-Audi, it just charges you an extra $2,500 dollars to do so (at least in my case). You don't have this problem regardless of what car you buy after the lease is over, you have this problem if you try to have a non-Audi dealer or third party purchase the car during or at the end of the lease so that you can get into a non-Audi vehicle. If you stay in an Audi, they don't jack up the sale price. There is no rational basis behind the policy, other than the obvious attempt to maximize profits at the expense of the customer.

    It is also deceptive, because they claim the buyout price is based on "fair market value", but that value changes based on who the car is being sold to, and whether the customer is purchasing another Audi or VW. Moreover, the FMV is not a reasonable price reflective of the actual value of the car. They actually mentioned something about Kelley Blue Book in setting the FMV, which is silly.

    People should care about it because it further impacts the already limited flexibility a lease provides. While most people will probably never try to get out of their lease early, if they need to, this can be a huge impediment, and won't be discovered until you are in the situation. It is a policy I find hostile to the interests of the customer. It is a practice that is counterintuitive, and a practice not utlized by other leasing companies.

    Audi contracted to a certain residual price with the customer, with the expectation the car may be purchased at that price. Audi cannot sell that car at auction for more than the negotiated residual, so they will actually end up losing money by preventing the leaseholder from having the dealer or a third party buy the car at the residual or residual plus remaining payments depending on the timing as opposed to turning the car in at the end of the lease.

    The practice of artificially increasing the buyout price for a third party to purchase the car makes no sense -- it is simply a transparent attempt to gouge the customer because they can. The odd thing about it is, these are Audi customers they are doing this to.

    My point is that this is a practice not utlized by other leasing companies, and people should be aware of it, because it's not even buried in the fine print.

    Knowing this policy, I would never lease from Audi Financial Services again unless my company were paying the bill and assuming any and all liabilities for lease termination.
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 190
    You are unilaterally terminating a lease. That means you are breaching the terms of the lease, aka contract. Breach of contract IS indeed what you are talking about and your claim that other leasing companies don't charge you a penalty for breaching your lease is hard to believe. Audi is under no moral or legal obligation to allow you to unilaterally terminate a contract and my bet is the vast majority of leasing companies do not do so either - without a penalty to the lessee.

    You can apparently swap out of your lease and get someone to assume your lease obligations (with AFS approval). Try the leasetrader.com site.

    Sorry that you got stuck but car leases are complicated financial transactions - if one doesn't understand them, don't do it. I was very well versed on leases, knew the MF and invoice and negotiated thousands under MSRP but ... I still may have got a couple of points too low on my residual. Also, if one's income stream is not certain, leases are not a good idea.
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    Edward, with all due respect, you are completely wrong. I understand the lease terms very well, I am an attorney, and I review contracts frequently. This has nothing to do with a penalty or breach of contract. This is not an early lease termination, it is a lease buyout.

    I read all of the contractual terms. The contractual provisions explicity permit a lease buyout. Lease buyout does not consitute a breach. You are confused about what constitutes a breach.

    If Audi wanted to put in a contractual penalty for an early lease buyout they could, but they don't. They expressly permit a lease buyout in the lease contractual provisions. Again, an early lease buyout does not constitute a breach. A buyout at the end of the lease does not constitute a breach.

    The issue is the disparate buyout price based on who is buying the car. Audi does this whether you are in the first or last month of your lease. It has absolutely nothing to do with a breach of contract or early lease termination.

    I got a great deal on my Audi, with a very low MF and with a reasonable residual. Unfortunately I can't take full advantage of the bargained for residual.

    My statement regarding how other companies handle the exact same situation is 100% accurate because I verified it. Again, it has nothing to do with breach. I really don't want to get bogged down in complex legal issues. The facts are the facts. I point this out simply to warn others of my experience and the inflexibility of Audi which stands in stark comparison to other lenders.

    Luckily I am not stuck because my lease is just about over, and it won't cost me too much, but others could be impacted more greatly.
  • jazz11jazz11 Posts: 3
    Hi,

    New to leasing but was offered at the dealership:

    a4 2.0 quattro msrp: $32,300

    $3000 down $400/mo (tax incl.) 36mo/lease

    a4 sline quattro $40k range

    $4000 down $480/mo + tax 36mo/lease

    I'm kind of new to leasing and was previously looking to buy a used 2005/6 in the low 20's and thought leasing might be an option...get a new car for lower monthly payments...but the amount down seems a bit high.

    I have excellent credit and should always get the lowest rate...although leasing and residual value etc...confuses me a bit. What's reasonable for the southwest? I don't need a superb deal just something fair.
  • bvdj84bvdj84 Posts: 1,724
    Yes, the amount you put down on both the models seems high. I know that had run a lease special that required you to put less down and less a month. Be careful before going any further, also you might want to have several dealerships fax or email you quotes. pick the best one. Look Audi website for specials. They just ran this special, but this seems to be the norm of what they do on this model. It seems a bit less, but I would try to negotiate a littler lower. Never take the first deal offered. You can always do better.

    $379* lease per month for 36 months
    Now through July 2, 2007

    Down payment: $999
    Refundable security deposit: $400
    Acquisition fee: $575
    First month's payment: $379
    Amount due at lease inception: $2,353
    EXCLUDES TAXES, TITLE AND DEALER FEES

    Try asking for a couple deals with 0 down or 1k down, see what you get.
  • jazz11jazz11 Posts: 3
    bvdj84,

    ok thanks....when I went in there, the sales person said that $2,353 doesn't include the dealership fees and the low monthly payment only applies to the base models.

    Everything is negotiable but being new to leases I wasn't sure on what you negotiate. Also do you negotiate on APR with leases?
    My credit union says I can get 6% no problem.

    If 0 down or 1k down is offered, the monthly payments usually go up also?

    Reading the forums a bit I see a lot of weight is put on residual value.

    Anyway thanks for the info I'll email a few dealerships in other states.
  • rallyfanrallyfan Posts: 36
    I TEST DROVE TWO A4'S 2.0 CVT FRONT TRACK AND A A4 3.2 FRNT TRACK I LOVED BOTH OF THEM MY WIFE WAS VERY IMPRESSED, ALSO BECAUSE SHE WANTS A CAMRY ARGH. WELL I RATHER LEASE THAN BUY BUT I WNT 36 MOUTHS 15K A YEAR AND LITTLE TO NO DOWN AS POSSIBLE I AM IN SO CAL. ARE THE NEW LEASES ADVERTISED GOOD ONES. THANKS ANY COMMENTS
  • jazz11jazz11 Posts: 3
    Just wondering if you can expect a better deal if you have an excellent credit rating when leasing or is a credit rating irrelevant?
  • cars0153cars0153 Posts: 45
    It always plays a factor
  • cars0153cars0153 Posts: 45
    I agree with you except on #3. These are costs added to dealer invoice and affect the invoice.
    Be fair to the dealer
  • cars0153cars0153 Posts: 45
    I got close to $2700 off
  • raudiaudiraudiaudi Posts: 8
    I worked out the math on a 2007 a4 Audi. Now my comparison is lease vs. buy numbers. On the buy side, I would be looking at a finance loan of 35k, 60 mos. at %5.89 with a payment of about 675/mo. Where as the 36 mos. lease is 379/month 10k mi/yr. Here is the kicker. The residual value on the car after the 36mo. lease is at $18,796.40 and the balance on loan after 36mos. on the 5yr loan situation is, $15,243.80. A difference of $3,553.00 less on the loan. But now factoring in $300/month MORE I pay on the loan for the 36mos., this is $10,800.00 total. So was it worth paying 10,800.00 over three years to buy down the value of the car by 3,553.00? My answer is NO! I can take the 300/month an put it in savings or investment, thus offsetting the cost of driving a newer car. I don’t care about the 10k mi. restriction b/c I will buy the car at the end of the lease. This is a great option because if you look up the same car with the “planned” amount of mileage after three years which would be a 2004 model right now, these cars are priced at 25k. This is a good argument to buy the car from the dealer after the lease end for 18,796.40, then sell it on the market and make a few grand or drive it some more. I think I am seeing all angles of the deal, please let me know if something is in my blind side. Basically I am avoiding loan interest for the first three years of ownership, which is a very large savings with the cost of borrowing money these days at a rate around 5.89%. That is how the savings is made in the lease rather than buy of this car, and maybe in taxes, but that is a gray area to me right now since I haven’t researched it yet. I know the purchase after lease situation of ownership has always been regarded as a way to pay the most for a car, but I think in this situation it works out better to lease.
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    You won't be buying the car from the dealer, you will be buying it from VCI Account Services, LLC, who Audi assigns their lease rights to. You can buy it at the end of the lease and resell it, but you will be subject to double taxation depending on your state.

    Also, 2004 A4's are not going for 25k. That might be the asking price, but not the selling price. I know that because I am currently selling a 2004 loaded A4 with 33,000 miles on it.

    I am in a similar situation in an A4. I leased the car with a ridiculously low money rate of .0004 or something like that, and while the car is worth more on the open market then my residual, factoring in the tax consequences makes it a wash.
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 190
    Whether those advertising fees are "real" or not, they add to the cap cost of the vehicle. And informed posters here are simply not paying those fees. Sure, one can let the dealer add those fees on if he wants, then one should offer invoice. Actually, right now, people are getting well below $500 above invoice as it is the end of the model year. So I would start well below $500 above invoice (or start at well below invoice if the dealer is adding advertising fees.)

    BTW, I have never seen a Southern California or Bay Area Audi dealers ad. I see them for Bimmers and Lexus all the time, but I never see them for Audi. The only thing they do is link some poor deal to the AudiUSA website.
  • cars0153cars0153 Posts: 45
    lease period. Here are other fsactors to keep in mind. What happens if you don't want o-r like car after 3 years? With the lease your done and have options. With the purchase you still owe money. What happens if the car is not worth the residual(mine wasn't)?
    with a lease Audi has the risk. On a purchase you do!
  • rallyfanrallyfan Posts: 36
    how to tell what are good numbers and what bad numbers im sure when you go into a dealer it can be overwhelming
  • raudiaudiraudiaudi Posts: 8
    I have owned a 2003 A4 before and liked the car, but it was when I could get a smokin' deal on the borrowed money, like 1.9% interest offer. I don't think that hitting a $18,500 residual will be too tough. There was a lawyer that posted something about leasing through Audi Finance as a bad idea because of not being able to sell the car to someone else without getting hit with taxes twice. I am not worried about that, plus it is not true...A lease needs to be thought of as a rental, not a purchase of an item, yes you are getting taxed on the lease payment throughout the course of the lease, but that is expected, as you would have to pay sales tax on the transaction to rent a car for example. What you are getting taxed on when you buy the car for the residual is the residual value of the car, in this case, $18,500.00 which is what you would pay if you bought the car outright anyway, but the taxable amount would be based on the market value of the car today. Audi isn't some special lease company that comes up with their own rules to screw a customer, it is simple business. Being a lawyer, I would hope that the Bumsville, Idaho Cosmotology, Tire, Community College and Law School Center he went to to get his Law Degree would have taught him the difference between a loan and a lease agreement, but I have overestimated lawyers before. Off the rant and back to what I was saying, so yes, if you buy the car from the dealer at that time, there will be taxes, i.e. transfering the car from the dealer to you, since it was a "rental" from the dealer to you, then there maybe another tax situation depending on who you sell the car to at the time depending on the party you sell it to and how straight edge you are with those types of transactions. Anywho, lease does look better in the numbers...
  • audihorseaudihorse Posts: 15
    That was a nasty reply to someone who was correct about Audi lease exclusionary pricing and explained it multiple times quite well.

    Not necessary. Bad manners, too.

    Audi will not sell the car on buy-out price defined in lease agreement (residual value + remaining payments less interest) to anyone BUT the lessee. That is the difference he finds in Audi from other auto cos. Audi will quote a higher price if a 3rd party wants to buy the car. Other auto cos. in his research have indicated that a 3rd party could buy a car from them off of a lease to you at that agreed price and this would enable you to escape tax burden by having to buy the car and re-sell it to 3rd party....

    The tax occuring twice refers to something that is true on most leased cars in most states. If I buy my Audi today I pay remaining tax owed and then if I sell it tomorrow to another party they pay the tax on the amount they pay me, too. That is not exclusive to Audi, though. There are clever ways to get around this in some states. What is exclusive to Audi according to the poster and guarantees this tax situation is their refusal to sell to a 3rd party for the same (possibly attractive) price as they have agreed to sell it to you in their lease agreement. It is not as though they get the tax money so it is just a way to encourage you to stay in the leased car by making it financially unattractive to get out of the lease. Either you have to buy the car and re-sell and pay tax or a 3rd party (non Audi dealer or your next door neighbor for example) has to pay more unattractive price to buy out from Audi and then they pay tax once on their transaction (if it is private party - but if it is a dealer - then no tax will be paid until the car is sold to another private party by dealer.)

    What part did you not understand?
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    I will take the high road here and simply agree with what Audihorse posted. Raudiaudi, you seem to have a complete lack of understanding of how the transaction is going to work, but in any case, go for it and see how it turns out for you. It seems no efforts to simplify will enlighten you.

    Just don't call me in three years for help when you decide to buyout your lease from the "dealer" and finally figure out how the transaction will work.
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    For further clarification regarding tax liability on a lease buyout for anyone interested, in California there is an exemption to avoid tax liability on a lease buyout if you resell the car within ten days of taking ownership. The condensed timetable makes this a difficult but not impossible timeframe to comply with if you have a buyer you can trust lined up.

    This will avoid tax liability on the lessee's part and allow the lessee to resell to a third party at the favorable lease buyout price (or higher to turn a profit).

    http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/reg1610.pdf

    Tax laws vary state to state however.
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 190
    What RaudiAudi (and I) don't understand is why the lawyer, who contends he knows about contracts because he is a lawyer of some sort, signed a contract which he can't comply with. As previously pointed out, if the lawyer signed a contract he is bound by the conditions of that contract. If the lawyer chooses to sell the car in violation of the lease terms, the contract allows for Audi to penalize him in some manner - as all leasing companies do in one form or another. If you can give me a cite or a link to a leasing company that does NOT penalize one for selling a car out of a lease, please do.

    Or, if the lease allows him to sell to a third party but at a higher buyout fee, he has to perform that contract term because ... he signed the contract. So if Audi wants to keep you in a lease for their business purposes (which I think we can assume they know better than the consumer), they can penalize him for breaching that lease by selling the car to a third party. Maybe some companies will let the lessee sell the car to some third schmoe for the remaining payments and residual, but the lessee will still owe them a fee. Otherwise, what is the incentive to stay in the lease?

    If Audi has violated the terms of the lease by requiring a higher buyout than the lawyer contracted for, then the lawyer has a cause of action against Audi. But it appears that Audi is not violating the lease as the lawyer does not mention litigating the issue (and if a lawyer would not litigate, who would?) Again, if they penalize him beyond the terms of the contract, the lessee has legal redress. Indeed, he could get attorney fees under truth in lending laws.

    http://consumerlawpage.com/article/common.shtml

    I don't think Raudi was following the tax argument of the lawyer. The lawyer is indeed hosed by the tax circumstances he got himself into. The lawyer never did respond to my suggestion to trade or sell the lease itself. As I said, if one don't understand the risks inherent in a lease or have an uncertain income ... one should not enter a lease.
  • audihorseaudihorse Posts: 15
    I think the attorney was just suggesting that it would be good to be aware of Audi leasing terms, including the buy out agreement. Sometimes humans only learn by doing something once and then want to help others not make the same mistake or to at least warn others of not so obvious considerations in the equation.

    He did not say he thought he had a case against Audi - just that he objected to their terms and would not lease again from them.
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    Here we go again. Could you demonstrate less understanding of basic contractual terms? Please stop doing people a disservice by blatantly misrepresenting my statements and the details of the transaction.

    You say:
    "What RaudiAudi (and I) don't understand is why the lawyer, who contends he knows about contracts because he is a lawyer of some sort, signed a contract which he can't comply with."

    Huh, when did I say that. Of course I can comply with the contract. The contract contains no terms stating that the buyout price will be different for a third party or dealer than it will be for the lessee, regardless of when that buyout is made. And, FWIW, so those reading can guage respective credibility of the posters, I am an attorney who drafts and negotiates contracts on behalf of businesses on a weekly basis.

    You said:
    "As previously pointed out, if the lawyer signed a contract he is bound by the conditions of that contract. If the lawyer chooses to sell the car in violation of the lease terms, the contract allows for Audi to penalize him in some manner - as all leasing companies do in one form or another."

    Selling the leased car, i.e. paying Audi the lease buyout price IS NOT A VIOLATION OF THE LEASE. Let me state again, a lease buyout is NOT A VIOLATION OF THE LEASE. To the contrary, it is explicitly authorized by the lease provisions. ALL LEASES allow you to buy out the lease at the end at the residual price. Virtually ALL LEASES allow you to buy out the lease prior to lease end by paying the residual plus remaining payments. Why do they? Because the money they make on the lease does not change based on whether you buy out the lease on day 1 or the last day. In fact, I am sure they would rather have you pay it all on day one, so they can access the money sooner rather than later. Since the interest is already built in to each payment, this would simply give them access to your capital sooner.

    You said:
    "If you can give me a cite or a link to a leasing company that does NOT penalize one for selling a car out of a lease, please do."

    First, it is not "penalizing" for selling a car out of lease. It is the practice of disparate lease buyout price (as stated in the lease terms) based on who the purchaser is. As for leasing companies that don't do this, Honda, Acura, Ford don't. From what I understand, a Ford dealer will do the third party buyout for you at no charge as a courtesy. When I inquired about Audi doing the same, multiple Audi dealers told me that Audi will jack up the price on them to.

    You said:
    "Or, if the lease allows him to sell to a third party but at a higher buyout fee, he has to perform that contract term because ... he signed the contract. So if Audi wants to keep you in a lease for their business purposes (which I think we can assume they know better than the consumer), they can penalize him for breaching that lease by selling the car to a third party."

    Again, you don't understand. First, the lease doesn't "allow" or disallow the lessee from selling the car to anyone for obvious reasons, as the lessee does not own the car, so inclusion of such a term would be nonsensical. Second, the lease does not "penalize" the lessee "for breaching the lease by selling the car to a third party". The lessee cannot sell the car without buying it first. Once the lessee buys the car, he or she can do whatever he or she likes, and Audi does not and could not penalize that transaction becuase they have no privity of contract with the third party. Moreover, the contract is silent as to the terms for selling the car to a dealer or third party, as opposed to selling it to the lessee.

    You said:
    "Maybe some companies will let the lessee sell the car to some third schmoe for the remaining payments and residual, but the lessee will still owe them a fee. Otherwise, what is the incentive to stay in the lease?"

    More nonsense. The buyout price is the buyout price, and most companies will allow you or a dealer or third party to buy the car out at the same price. The buyout terminates the lease. You don't own a "fee" after a lease buyout, regardless of the purchaser. That is why it is called a "buyout", not an early lease termination.

    You said:
    "If Audi has violated the terms of the lease by requiring a higher buyout than the lawyer contracted for, then the lawyer has a cause of action against Audi. But it appears that Audi is not violating the lease as the lawyer does not mention litigating the issue (and if a lawyer would not litigate, who would?) Again, if they penalize him beyond the terms of the contract, the lessee has legal redress. Indeed, he could get attorney fees under truth in lending laws."

    Complete misquote and fabrication. Not once did I state Audi was breaching the express terms of the contract. Please point out for all of us where I ever said that? You should choose your words more carefully. What I stated was that there is no provision in the contract explicitly stating that Audi will charge a dealer or third party more than the lessee for the identical privilege of buying the car from them. The contract is silent on that term. It is counterintuitive that Audi would do this, as evidenced by the fact that are so far the only company I have found that does this. It even angers Audi dealers. It is simply a policy designed to increase their bottom line. While Audi contracted to sell the car to you for X, they figure hey, why not try to get X + Y if we can, and we don't care at whose expense. That is a business decision Audi makes. Other leasing companies DO NOT.

    You said:
    "I don't think Raudi was following the tax argument of the lawyer. The lawyer is indeed hosed by the tax circumstances he got himself into. The lawyer never did respond to my suggestion to trade or sell the lease itself. As I said, if one don't understand the risks inherent in a lease or have an uncertain income ... one should not enter a lease."

    I am not "hosed" as you state due to the provisions of California law permitting one to avoid tax liability if a car is purchased for resale and the transaction is completed within ten days. However, many states do not have such a provision, and the complexity of the third party buyout and unfamiliarity with it (because of Audi's unique refusal to sell to a dealer or third party) by most lenders/dealers makes the transaction convoluted and time consuming. Moreover, when you say the "tax circumstances he got himself into" - you do realize you are talking about State tax laws that every lessee is subjected to right? This is not some special deal for me. Thus the reason for my post in the first place.
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    In closing....

    Regarding your attempt to equate the validity of my post with whether there is pending litigation is silly. Certain hostile business practices are legal, others are illegal. You can choose to do business with whomever you like. It is certainly not illegal to charge someone MSRP on a car, and if you don't mind the practice, feel free to buy the car at MSRP.

    Regarding legality, while I question whether this practice violates California Unfair Business Practices Law, considering in the end I will incur no damages as a result of this hostile practice other than lost time, there is no reason to litigate. Even if I were to incur a loss by having to pay a dealer or third party a premium to purchase the car from Audi at an inflated price, it would not be worth my time to litigate as the loss would be under $2,000.

    Regarding your comment of the litigiousness of lawyers, behind every sleazy lawsuit is a willing client.

    I posted this in the first place because others may not be so lucky in avoiding double taxation depending on their state of residency and familiarity with tax laws. Others may have a change in circumstances that requires them to try to exit their lease and get into a different car (whether it be having children, loss of life, change of job, etc...)

    Audi has chosen to pursue a practice that benefits them at the expense of the lessee. This practice is not disclosed in the lease agreement. This practice is not done by other leasing companies. Whether it is legal or illegal really isn't the point. You can choose to do business with whomever you like, but you should know all the facts prior to making your decision.

    Oh, and by the way, in response to your equestion regarding "selling or trading" the lease, and why I did not respond to that suggestion, the answer follows. As if it were not obvious, why would one ever trade a lease with one month remaining. Your suggestion made no sense.

    However, just so everyone is aware, you cannot assign your Audi lease to a third party (through leasetrader or other similar programs) in the last 12 months of the lease. Most lenders do not have this restriction, some have a sixth month restriction. Moreover, you remain liable for the lease even after the lease is assigned to the third party (unlike many other lenders, who allow a clean assignment).

    Just more food for thought for those considering an Audi lease.
  • raudiaudiraudiaudi Posts: 8
    Here is a good example of someone's experience with this matter.

    http://www.edmunds.com/advice/strategies/articles/48244/article.html

    Don't worry, I won't be calling you in three years, the liars....I mean lawyers I deal with know the difference between to, two, and too.

    ". When I inquired about Audi doing the same, multiple Audi dealers told me that Audi will jack up the price on them to."

    Jabs aside,

    I know you aren't in a lawsuit, and I know you aren't trying to get out of a lease agreement early. The double taxation thing is still muddy waters for some people, even in the article I have linked into this posting. She is going for the State Taxation Board for a double taxation claim, which is BS. She did not buy the vehicle until the end of the lease, where she should be taxed on the residual price of the vehicle plus any applicable fees she agreed to. Now whoever buys it after her purchase must pay sales tax on their purchase of the vehicle from her. So no double taxing is going on. If there was better resources on this forum, I would draw a diagram with cute stick figures and all. I understand leases, loans, and taxation. In this article, she discovered what a dealer would do to either help or hinder a third party in obtaining the vehicle. If the residual was 15k and the market of the vehicle held strong at 18k, I would like to meet the SOON-TO-BE-FIRED Finance Manager at a dealership that would turn away, plus AID in the effort to get the third party in the vehicle for 15k when they could make so much more by telling both parties that it can't be done, then taking the third party and selling them a car for about the same price he had worked out or maybe a little less. In this case, the dealer also has the lessee by the you know what because if the lessee was over mileage or past normal wear and tear, they just took the lessee's get-out-of-jail-free card away and now they can charge the lessee the appropriate fees when he is now forced to turn the vehicle into them since they took away his buyer--Just playing the devil's advocate that always chases the dollar. Situation #2 is that the market of the car actually is 13k and your buy out is still 15k, which is more likely with most brand of manufacturers over Audi (greater depreciation rate per year, rather than the roughly %12 Audi currently maintains), so your third party would be an idiot to step in the finance room to make that deal with you. So the black and white has been established here, but now there is a grey we haven't even talked about. First Audi has a Premier Purchase Plan, after skimming through the rules, it seems like they put the title of the vehicle in your name from day one, but treat it much like a lease, so I hate to use the [non-permissible content removed]-out-of-u-&-me word here, but I would assume there is a sales tax situation wrapped up in the program somewhere, maybe even before the term end. So this is also a purchase, with some lease restrictions with a balloon payment at the end for the purchase of the vehicle, which eliminates the taxation at the end, again I am only assuming. The gray area also has the down and dirty idea of buying it from the dealer, with your money (which is better) or money fronted by the third party, then selling it to your third party for say 1k, which you can put on the title when you sign it over to him on the back of the document or in a bill of sale note, but don't put down "gift", b/c the DMV in most states have caught on to this and will go with market value of the vehicle. He pays virtually nothing for taxes and you have payed tax once. If the DMV is curious about this, the third party can say it was a "favor" deal, happens all the time. For the rest of the amount come to an agreed understanding of why this helps the two of you out and plan out the rest of the payment plan.

    -"You don't know what they don't know."

    P.S. I would recommend doing it this way since the poster of the article referenced in this reply tried to comply with California Law and the whole ten day policy and she still ran into snags. No surprise there, state officials make the law and they still can't interpret it correctly for the people of which it governs.

    Ye have little faith, no, Ye have no faith!
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    Well, thanks for clearing that up. If anyone can interpret this post for those of us not in a drug induced haze, I would appreciate it. Next time consider paragraphs.

    Again, Audi charges MORE to sell the car to a dealer than they do the lessee. Other leasing companies do not do that. That was my original premise, and you have not disproved it.

    Regarding buying the car "from the dealer" as your "gray area", you can't buy the car from the dealer unless the dealer buys it from Audi first. And guess what, the price the dealer can buy it for is a special increased price that exceeds your residual. So sure, give up your residual price, have the dealer buy it for $1500 more, and then buy it from the dealer, and then sell it to a third party. Yeah, that makes a great deal of sense.

    Regarding the third party process in california, I read the same article. The author fails to mention numerous ways to avoid ever having to go to the DMV, which begin with signing a limited power of attorney with your lender to allow them to move title directly from the manufacturer, through you, to the third party. I have no idea why the author paid sales tax to a dealer, particularly when California law is clear that if purchasing for resale within ten days, no tax liability is owed.

    What little value I did glean from your post simply supports my point, so I have to thank you. What is so easy to do with many lenders is extremely difficult to do with Audi (and apparently difficult to do with Nissan). You finally understand.

    Regarding the Audi Premier Purchase Plan, sure, you can go that route, but not only will your payments be higher than if you had a lease, but you also can only select 15k miles a year. Great plan. And note was is not in the details of the PPP. Whether a third party or dealer can buy the car for the same balloon payment. I have a pretty good idea what the answer is.

    So it seems your solution, and correct me if I am wrong, is to buy the car from a dealer at a premium well over your residual (because that is the only way you can buy the car from the dealer), and then commit fraud in the title transfer to the third party, rather than simply applying for a refund with the State Equalization Board?

    Wow, and people hold lawyers in low esteem. I highly, highly recommend you don't follow this advice. Simply complete the transfer within ten days in California or suck it up and pay the tax. In other states, check the taxation laws.
  • raudiaudiraudiaudi Posts: 8
    Now that we are at the crux of the problem, i.e. buying the car from the dealer, well over residual, that has got to be disclosed to the lessee prior to getting into this situation. So you were approached by a dealer that said, "Mr. your car's residual is this, but afer this fee, that fee, this add on and this, this is now the buy out of this car? And you didn't have any prior knowledge of this until they told you at turn in? That may be a liability on Audi if not presented to the lessee correctly. It doesn't make sense to buy a car off a friend for a premium if that does occur. I am not suggesting fraud, but another way to skin the cat. As citizens, we take the "LAW" as all governing and perfect, which is not true, it is an idea and entity written by imperfect beings, so when the government is spending money in a wasteful and unproductive way, but then turning around and saying we as citizens have to be on the level with it, I call the BS flag. Like I said, the guy mowed my lawn for 42k and I sold him this car for 1k because he is a good friend. Not an advocate, just someone that sees through the liberal bs of our current government. State Equalization Board, yea, I am sure you are the first one that came to them with this problem and tried to get it handled the same way as this lady did in the article. Out of my own curiosity, how can a dealer re-neg a residual price after it is written, just by calling Audi and saying that they now have to buy the car from them for 4k or whatever over the price. How is that an honorable quote in the first place, unless the price increase was due to fees that were explained in the fine print all along if you were to purchase at the end of the contract?
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    No, you are still missing the whole point. The dealer does not "own" the car. They leased it to you, it is owned by the manufacturer, you can return it to any dealer of that manufacturer, it is not owned by any dealer.

    For the dealer to sell it to you, they have to buy it first. Thus, there is no reason to buy the car from the dealer when you have the right to buy it directly from the finance company.

    The problem arises when you want to trade the car in to a dealer for another car or have a third party buy the car. If you try to do this, the dealer will have to purchase the car at "fair market value" determined by Audi Financial, and not your negotiated residual. The FMV will likely exceed your residual. There are no add of "fees" by the dealer. The increase in price is a result of Audi Financial charging the dealer a buyout price that exceeds your residual.

    As I have stated multiple times already, there is no provision in the leasing contract stating that Audi will do this. There is no provision stating Audi will not. The contract is silent on this issue, and therefore, until you are actually in the situtation, you would have no idea what their policy is.

    The practice of charging a dealer "FMV" solely determined by Audi Financial instead of the negotiated residual is a practice not utlized by other leasing companies.

    The dealer is not re-negging on a residual. The dealer is simply a conduit/agent in the transaction. You can still buy the car from the Audi Financial at the price in your contract. A third party cannot without paying a premium well above the lessee's residual.

    Regarding your justification for evading taxes, it sounds like Wesley Snipes in his tax evasion trial. I suggest you petition your State congressman/woman regarding state tax policy rather than commit tax evasion because you disagree with the policy of the government.
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 190
    That last post was pretty good. Of course, it was the only post of yours written in any kind of understandable English. So the crux of this is indeed one of two things (that I have already addressed); You, Mr. I-Know-Everything-But-Got-Hosed-Anway, 1) signed a contract whose terms are clear but you just don't want to comply with them, or 2) the contract terms of the contract you signed were uncertain but you interpret them differently than AFS does. I think that indeed #1 is probably your circumstances and that you are facing the consequences of being an unsophisticated buyer or a buyer who is upset because he cannot take advantage of the bank. Finance companies are not know for being intimidated by disgruntled borrowers. But finance companies have insurers who are intimidated by claims of clear violations of unfair lending laws.

    Regarding your claimed scenario #2, you claim that the contract is silent on the criteria regarding buyout and you don't like and disagree with their interpretation of the buyout clause. Well, hello Mr. Contact-Law-Expert - Negotiate! Or sue them. If indeed, it is industry practice to interpret such clauses in auto leases differently than AFS does, that practice is indeed industry custom and such custom is probative towards interpreting the disputed lease terms. But since - after what? 4 posts - you, Mr. I-Know-Everything-But-Am-Losing-My-Shirt-Anyway have not given me ANY links, I can only assume that industry custom does NOT normally let you buy your way out of a lease with no type of penalty (or the equivalent, an inflated market value). You are just mad because you can't take advantage of AFS the way you probably do in your work by the use of your quite impressive but still confusing and bombastic rhetoric.
  • mcwenzelmcwenzel Posts: 37
    You said:

    "Regarding your claimed scenario #2, you claim that the contract is silent on the criteria regarding buyout and you don't like their interpretation of the buyout clause"

    Classic.

    Since nobody could be this criminally stupid, at this point I am convinced my wife put you up to posting as a practical joke and/or you and RaudiAudi are the same person and this is an endless troll.

    Either way, I'm out. I need to get back to using confusing and bombastic rhetoric to take advantage of multi-billion dollar corporations.

    If anyone needs any advice on how to navigate the third party buyout in California or the inherent risks unique to an Audi/VW lease, feel free to e-mail me.
  • audihorseaudihorse Posts: 15
    just wanted you to know that I understood all of your "...rhetoric" and completely get your points.

    Glad you gave up on Dumb and Dumber, though. It was hopeless. If either of them were your client - you would have to fire the client. ;)
  • raudiaudiraudiaudi Posts: 8
    So by your experience in an Audi lease, you would agree that even though you are given a residual price for your car at the beginning of the agreement, that this number is arbitrary? Eventhough the dealership quoted it to you, they can't bind themselves to it because the dealer still has to buy the car from AFS and that will be at a much higher FMV if you do decide to buy it from them at the end? I understand entirely where you are coming from.

    However, if a lease is made through a dealer directly with AFS, AFS is bound by the contract, if the dealer didn't go about it this way, i.e. carried you through the lease then you said you want to buy the car at the end of it, which this most likely sounds like your case, then yea, you did get hosed and should have known better. You make it sound as if AFS inks a deal with someone when a car is leased, tells them specific numbers in writing, then backs out and says, oh yea, that residual, we were just kidding, actually, here is the real price which is more like FMV.

    I will ask when I go for an Audi lease if the paper is carried by them and all terms of the agreement are going to be honored by them or if it won't happen because the dealer or another third party lessor will have to at that time buy the car from AFS.

    Here are your paragraphs.....
  • jagxjagx Posts: 1
    JHC....... i had to sign up for this forum just to post this after reading this thread. anyone reading this --- do yourself a favor and pay attention to the posts by mcwenzel. i read contracts every day and he has a clear understanding of, and provides a clear understanding of, the relevant topics. reading the posts of the other side in this "debate" is like reading a dr seuss book upside down after having 5 pints.

    btw, if anyone wants to reply, what is the bottom line on a 36 mo a4 lease, 12k miles, say $2k down? or just the 36 mo residual and money factor used would be great to have. seems like they must have a pretty low mf if my sister in law is accurate that she landed a new a4 2 mos ago for 360/mo inclusing taxes.
  • rallyfanrallyfan Posts: 36
    could you give an example of a good lease on A4 2.0 cvt frnt trk i want to put as little down as possible 15k year 36 months thanks rallyfan ps i finally am able to post yeah love this site
  • simansiman Posts: 7
    Hi McWenzel,
    This site is very confusing especially with some other irresponsible posters to confuse most other people (like me).
    I just wanted to know if this is a good deal from my local dealer Ads (St.Petersburg, FL).
    For A4 with MSRP $31,015, the downpayment is $1,999 and the monthly payment is $299 plus tax. Term: 36 months (30,000 miles total)
    What should I watch out with this Ads? This is not clear to me if the downpayment includes all the prep fees, acquisition fee, etc. We went to the dealer on Sunday (they closed) and saw one exactly A4 we both wanted with the MSRP $31,015 exact amount from the classified Ad.
    The residual amount is $17,058.25. It just didn't make sense (with negative MF?), too good to be true?
    Thanks for all your helps!
  • cars0153cars0153 Posts: 45
    Either you or the dealer can buy the car from Audi for the residual on the contract period.
    If the dealer is saying you have to go through them then they are lying to you.
    Go right to Audi
    If you are intending to sell the car you do have to register the car first, pay the tax and then sell it. You presently don't own the car and the tax must be paid
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 190
    I am sure you will get a lot of takers. "Available: Expert Lawyer who got taken to the cleaners, seeks to advise other similarly situated lessees." I agree, if you can't defend your mistakes, get out of the kitchen.

    BTW, as we are crowing, I did work in the Bankruptcy law division at Bank of America many years ago. My job (and that of many others) was to defend the Bank against deadbeats who obtained loans and not only could not pay them but then sued the bank for lending them too much money. Right up your alley.
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 190
    I actually want to understand this but McWenzell's writing is so arcane that it is difficult. Plus, he is so pompous.

    Perhaps you can explain in laymen's terms why:
    1) If AFS unilaterally replaced the lease residual #s with FMV #s, why McWenzel does not have a cause of action against them for breach of contract and violation of Fair lending laws.
    2) If he has no recourse, why is this the only area of contract law, where one party can provide a specific # when writing the contract (e.g. residual), yet use another one (e.g. FMV) to later interpret it. This simply makes no sense.

    Also, McWenzel claims NO OTHER finance dealers do this but cannot provide ONE link to another leasing company that does not penalize lessees for getting out of the lease. What am I missing there?

    Now for my credentials: I just leased an A4 Avant for 36 months and have the MF, Residual and a price lower than any seen on this forum - all are available if you can explain why McWenzel does not have a claim against AFS or alternatively why he simply is trying to get out of a contract that he doesn't like.
  • alex320alex320 Posts: 8
    Does anyone know if the special leasing ads in the classified sections are negotiable? Are dealerships flexible on say, adding more mileage for the same quoted price if you haggle with them or are those specials "as good as it gets"?
  • audihorseaudihorse Posts: 15
    I had no problem with his explanations and tried before to interpret for some of you and I am sure this is waste of my time but here goes:

    Contract with AFS and agreed terms is between you and them only - they only change the residual price if 3rd party attempts to buy car. No recourse as the contract is between you and them. He gets that. Not sure why you don't. He thinks it is a rather onerous position and less than customer friendly on AFS part to change the price if a 3rd party wants to buy and that would be convenient to you. Forces you to buy the car and pay tax before you re-sell. Which can be worked around in some states - just a hassle. So no penalty as you are entitled to buy the car at any time within the lease or at lease end - but ONLY you can buy it for the price agreed.

    BTW, before you brag too much on your deal - remember the MF and price should be low, but the higher the residual the better for the deal - means you are paying less for use of car for term of lease.
  • rallyfanrallyfan Posts: 36
    HEY SIMAN LOOKS LIKE YOU AND I ARE HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM BOTH OF OUR POST ARE BEING IGNORED DUE TO THE CONSTANT BATTLE THAT HAS TAKEN OVER THIS SITE. LOOKS LIKE WE WANT THE SAME TYPE CAR GOOD LUCK TRY NO OR LITTLE DOWN AND AT INVOICE RALLYFAN
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