Nissan Versa

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Comments

  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I have a '99 Mercury Cougar with ABS and traction control. There's a button on the dash to disable it. ABS was new to me, so when I bought the car I went to a shopping mall parking lot at night to test things out, and it was an obvious benefit, at least in the snow. With ABS I would hit the brakes and the car would stop straight. Without ABS it would turn one way or the other as it slowed down. If I had cars on either side of me I would have side-swipped them for sure. That half hour in the parking lot was enough to convince me of the benefits of ABS. Sure, you can pump the brakes manually, but in an emergency situation, I'll take the ABS. As a $200 option on the Versa, it's non-availability was one of the reasons I bought a Fit to replace my Cougar.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    You didn't read the results of the study I linked.

    The alleged increase in control provided by ABS is not helping people avoid accidents in any statistically visible way.

    Mark.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    ABS is like intelligent design.

    There is no proof that it serves a benefit and yet it makes you feel better.

    For that reason alone, Nissan should have made it available.

    My point is that if you like the Versa, don't let the ABS be a deal breaker if you can't find a car with it.

    Mark.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    From the posted article:

    A 1994 Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) study1 and a subsequent 1995 study2 compared insurance claims for groups of otherwise identical cars with and without antilocks, finding no differences in the overall frequency or cost of crashes for which insurance claims for vehicle damage are filed. Because antilocks should make the most difference on wet and slippery roads, researchers also studied insurance claims experience in 29 northern states during winter months. Even here they found no difference in the frequency of insurance claims for vehicles with and without antilock brakes.
    Okay, but this study is over 10 years old, and ABS was put on a lot of sporty cars, so maybe the reason there was no difference was because of the type of car equipped with ABS back in 1994. Hard to say based on this 12 year old study.

    A 1997 Institute study3 and a 2001 update4 reported no difference in the overall fatal crash involvement of cars with and without antilocks.
    Okay, a new test, but now they're only looking at "fatal crash" statistics. What about non-fatal crashes in this test. That omission makes me think that there was a difference in this test with respect to non-fatal crashes, otherwise they would have said for any crashes like in the previous test. If ABS helps in preventing non-fatal crashes, that's good enough for me!

    To continue to quote from this article:
    Failure Analysis Associates reported a net beneficial effect of antilocks on nonfatal crashes but no effect on fatal crashes.7

    Yes, I picked the quotes that supported my view, but my point is that from my personal experience in simply braking with and without ABS, when I was braking in the snow with ABS I was in more control of the vehicle. Additionally, some of the studies indicate that ABS prevents non-fatal crashes, so that plus my personal experience makes ABS a mandatory item on any car I'd buy.
  • jacksan1jacksan1 Member Posts: 504
    One analogous situation: cars with or without 4WD. If you are from a snowy place, you know what kind of cars are most often found in ditches after a snow storm. Cars WITH 4WD. But does that prove that 4WD has no benefit? Hardly. Given all things equal, 4WD for surely gives you a better traction than without it. But, if you are fool and believe that 4WD makes you God on snow and ice, then 4WD is probably more harmful than without. With the same sane and wise driver at the helm, however, 4WD has benefits, as we all know. My point is that accident statistics do not always prove a particular technology's advantages and disadvantages. Something like ABS works well in the test track because you have good drivers in an controlled environment. Unfortunately, there is currently no technology that compensates for a lack of driver IQ.
  • ecotrklvrecotrklvr Member Posts: 519
    Just a couple of points, if I may:

    1) Some put a quite a lot of stock in these written documents. How many have ever done what the other poster did, and actually try it yourself in a snowy parking lot? I'll take first hand data wherever I can get it, and will take a little grain of salt to go with this report that justifies NOT giving insurance discounts to people that buy ABS equipped cars. In other words, TRY IT, and see if you like it - rather than relying on on this information that is at best, a conclusion based n 5-year-old data.

    2) If it only provides 2% fewer collisions, that's worth something to me. Collisions are pretty expensive events, and possibly painful or even fatal. Plus, much of the extra $$ I spend today will come back to me in additional resale value.

    3) What is overlooked is that ABS now comes with one or two new features not mentioned in the report: Brake Assist (BA), and Electronic Brake Force (EBD)Distribution. So the report could not measure the performance of the new "ABS Package" that we are posting about here. It's not like apples and oranges, but it is like comparing old apples to fresh apples.

    When I bought my Toyota Highlander, it came with an ABS package with both of these nifty add-ons, and it has convinced me of its worth several times. The Versa comes with both BA and EBD - the Sentra (and even Altima) specs only mention the EBD coming with the ABS - no BA with them. Unless Nissannews missed another key spec.

    I'll bet that the ABS Package is better than ABS alone, and probably performs better than 5-year-old ABS-only systems. The newer designs seem to keep evolving.
  • 74apollo74apollo Member Posts: 22
    I am 75 years old and drove for many years without ABS. I've driven with ABS the last ten years and prefer the way it handles on wet pavement, snow and icy conditions. I don't care what the stats show, I like the way it handles and do not want to go back to non-ABS. That's why I'm waiting for a Versa SL with ABS.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    I hope that Nissan makes ABS more available.

    Incidentally, the Ford Focus is available with ABS and Side airbags as a "safety package" with a discount.

    Mark.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    yeah and t hey are heavely discounted too
  • aladdinsanealaddinsane Member Posts: 182
    Hi all. . .
    First, I can't find any new Versa SL with ABS, let alone a Versa at all, in my neck of the woods. . .(NYC area)- So what else is new, right? LOL-
    Plus I have a question :
    Why is it that the SL, the fine machine that it is IMHO,
    cannot be optioned with both ABS and the other optional packages COMBINED? It seems that if you want Bluetooth, sunroof and other goodies you can't get ABS, and vice versa.
    What's up with that? Anyone have a clue? Could it be that the upcoming SE-R version, next year, will have all this and more available with it? Hmmmmmm. . .:confuse:

    Peace! :shades:
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Why is it that the SL, the fine machine that it is IMHO,
    cannot be optioned with both ABS and the other optional packages COMBINED? It seems that if you want Bluetooth, sunroof and other goodies you can't get ABS, and vice versa.
    What's up with that? Anyone have a clue?


    SL is available with all packages combined. Your "clue" is delivered.

    I drove an SL with CVT, Audio pkg., Sirius, Sunroof Pkg., Convenience Pkg., and ABS last month.
    What are you basing your statement on that you can not obtain a Versal SL with ABS in combination with all of the other optional packages? Are you relying on the Nissan website? The Nissan website "build your Versa" has an error.
    Nissan dealer told me this in September and backed up their statement in October with proof when they called to say they had an SL with ALL optional packages in stock. I've seen it with my own eyes and drove it and others have reported buying Versa's with all options in other areas of the US.

    The only optional package that is currently not available is the Sport Pkg., which is not even listed yet on the Nissan website and will not be available until early calendar year 2007.
  • rbrittinghamrbrittingham Member Posts: 11
    We have CURRENTLY placed deposit on Blue Onyx/Charcoal interior, Versa SL with CVT, Covenience PKG, ABS and Kick Plate. This doesn't mean we are going to receive it in a hurry. We only go through internet or Fleet dealers). We have been told February and that is fine with us because for our family this works. We have 4 dealers that could come up with this PKG within 2 hour radius of home. However!!! Many dealers will go to drastic means and tell you they just cannot do this. Some refused to give test drive and about 8 would never give a quote, therefore they were eliminated. We also were told initially that they couldn't get ABS and that no one was buying them any way. We held firm on what we wanted and they began to change their story when they realized we weren't going to buy just anything and that we are serious about purchasing a vehicle. Even if we have to wait
    longer we are fortunate that we have the time to do so.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    The dealer I talked to said that initially they did receive some SLs with ABS in Aug & Sep but since then they haven't received any and aren't planning on receiving any until Feb 07 due to the production line being changed to produce the Versa 4door version. So just because someone saw SLs with ABS a couple of months ago, doesn't mean that they have any now. Even in the Consumer Reports Dec issue, they specifically mentioned that SLs with ABS are hard to find.
  • prouloproulo Member Posts: 26
    Changed to produce the Versa 4door version? I thought the Versa had 4 doors. This just proves that the dealers don't know what they are talking about. I had a dealer swear that there was a Suzuki sx4 Sport at his dealership. It was a base model. He didn't know the difference.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I hate to be a smarta$$ but you just NOW figured it out that the sale droids have no clue on what they are selling. I have wittness this first hand at serveral dealerships. Now granted I have seen some sales people be on top of thier game and KNOW what they are talking about, but this is rare..

    Tony
  • jacksan1jacksan1 Member Posts: 504
    A sedan version of the Versa is arriving early next year. So that's what those sales guys were probably talking about.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    That was my mistake. I meant to say they're gearing up the production lines for the sedan version, not 4dr version.
  • ecotrklvrecotrklvr Member Posts: 519
    The current Versa is a 5-door (or hatchback, if you prefer). The coming model is a 4-door sedan.
  • 74apollo74apollo Member Posts: 22
    The first dealer I went to was a small dealer who primarly sells Chevrolets and a few Nissans. They took my order and two months later said Nissan canceled it. They had no explanations and would not take a new order from me. No one at the dealership seemed to know squat about what was coming in or when and when I contacted the Nissan hot line, they had no info either. I then went to a dealer who claimed to be the largest Nissan dealer in the 4-state area. They were much more on the ball but blamed Nissan for promoting a car that they weren't able to build fast enuf and with the right options. This dealer claimed their early orders were also canceled by Nissan with no explanation but since that time they have been ordering & receiving Versas, even tho it seems to take a long time. This dealer said Nissan does not seem to understand what options us Americans want on this vehicle. Not being able to order cruise control on the S model is puzzling as well as the difficulty in getting ABS. They were also able to go into the Nissan ordering system and change the options on an order to match what I wanted. It will still take 2+ months to get it, assuming I do. I think the problem is on Nissan's end. They're trying to introduce a new style Sentra, the Versa hatchback, and then the Versa sedan and don't have the production capacity to do all three at once. That's why their hot line has no info, because they don't want to admit a problem.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ABS absolutely cannot provide any substantial reduction in dry stopping distance.

    CR just published a comparo of the Versa and five other models. They tested ABS and non-ABS equipped versions of four of the cars, including the Versa. In each case, they found that the stopping distances for both dry and wet roads increased significantly without ABS. Here are the numbers for the Versa:

    With ABS, Dry: 145 ft.
    W/O ABS, Dry: 163 ft.
    With ABS, Wet: 163 ft.
    W/O ABS, Wet: 187 ft.

    CR said of the Versa's brakes that braking distances in the non-ABS Versa were some of the longest they had recorded recently, and that the ABS-equipped model was better but still below par.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Exactly...take this to the dealer when they try to convince you that the Versa doesn't really need ABS!
  • ecotrklvrecotrklvr Member Posts: 519
    Not just ABS at work here - Brake Assist and Electronic Brake Force Distribution are what make it happen.

    ABS alone probably wouldn't make the distances shorter, but it's a moot point - ABS isn't sold separately; only with the BA and EBD.
  • jacksan1jacksan1 Member Posts: 504
    Yup, and if the availability weren't an issue, the ABS package for Versa is a steal at $250. For that kind of money to get the ABS and EBD, it should be a no-brainer, except that right now you can't get it. Shoulda been standard to begin with.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I agree. Today, ABS should be standard on all vehicles. I doubt if it was the cost. Maybe it had to do with a shortage of ABS parts for the Versa (all of the ABS components are going to the new Sentra?) or production issues. I can't imagine they'd not have standard ABS just to keep the price $250 lower?
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    Why should a consumer be FORCED to pay for "safety equipment" that has not proven benefit?

    If ABS was so great, crash data would reflect a huge difference in the frequency of crashs of ABS equipped vehicles vs non-abs equipped vehicles.

    What a communist statement to say that we should have a "safety" system forced upon us.

    I say let market forces control. If you want ABS, go buy a car with ABS. If a car does not have ABS and you want it, DON'T buy it!

    If enough people put their money where their mouth is and sales are affected that Nissan will change its behavior. But DON'T tell me I HAVE to buy something.

    Mark.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    If you look at the Consumer Reports Dec article, you'll see the difference in stopping distance between the Versa with and without ABS. That's good enough for me. I'd rather err on the side of being too safe, plus I don't want to wait 10 years for there finally to be enough studies to "prove" the usefullness of ABS. The purpose of the government is to provide for the safety of its citizens (even if they don't like it). And if I'm forced to stop hard, I'd rather have the guy behind me with ABS to prevent him from ramming into me.

    In general, forced regulation is the only way to get big companies to comply with safety, health, environmental, etc rules. They won't do it on their own because there's no profit in it. For example, many cities across America have cleaner air because of emissions regulations, versus the totally free market of 100 years ago and serious pollution everywhere. There has to be a balance between free market and governemtn regulation and the voters determine that to some extent.

    Maybe they can put a ABS disable switch on cars for the folks living in the mountains who think ABS is a government communist conspiracy :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you want ABS, go buy a car with ABS.

    Well, that's the problem, isn't it? The Versa is a fine little car and many people want it with ABS, but it's not available that way now. Nissan isn't even giving Versa buyers the choice of ABS or no ABS--it's just "no ABS."
  • jacksan1jacksan1 Member Posts: 504
    What a communist statement to say that we should have a "safety" system forced upon us.

    Well, I guess it's time to get rid of the legislation on the seatbelt and airbag as well. I'd rather die than to be a communist.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Just to be fair, he did say "proven" safety systems, and while I believe seatbelts and airbags have been proven to improve safety, ABS doesn't have the same proven record from insurance records. But like I said, just the CR Dec test is enough proof for me. And I know when I talked to Nissan dealers, they're as frustrated as the rest of us with the lack of ABS with the CVT on the SLs. They said they're getting lots of request for SL CVTs with ABS and they are losing customers because of it...good old capitalism at its finest!
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Well, that's the problem, isn't it? The Versa is a fine little car and many people want it with ABS, but it's not available that way now. Nissan isn't even giving Versa buyers the choice of ABS or no ABS--it's just "no ABS."

    Not available? I've seen three SL, CVT, ABS equipped Versa's at the same dealer in the two times I've been there in the last two months. 2 yesterday and 1 last month.
    And I was told they could have a fully optioned SL with ABS in color of my choice in 8 weeks at the latest.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Where do you live and is there a webpage for your dealer. I'm in Southwest Ohio and they did a 500 mile radius search and found zero SL CVT with ABS.
  • ecotrklvrecotrklvr Member Posts: 519
    Don't suppose you've read post 776 yet?

    You keep comparing apples to oranges here. I agree about ABS alone not being proven, but the Versa option in not ABS alone. And it has been proven to work, on this Forum's subject car, in actual tests done by Consumer Reports. What more proof are you looking for?
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    This is an interesting argument.

    I think I can find plenty of studies from the early 90's which show that air bags actually can do harm or kill as well as studies that seatbelts have harmed individuals.

    The way I look at it is ABS must have some benefit if the insurance companies are willing to give you a discount if your car is equipped with ABS. These companies wouldn't pay their mother's insurance claim if they could get away with it.

    Either way, the Versa should have ABS as standard equipment. If for no other reason thatn their competition has it. I was shocked that the stopping distance without ABS was so much longer. Generally, the distances are pretty close but the ABS gives you the ability to control the vehicle. After a couple of near rear end misses, all my cars will have ABS.

    I'll be in the market for a new vehicle in the spring and the Versa is on my list. The availability of ABS is a factor.
  • jacksan1jacksan1 Member Posts: 504
    And it has been proven to work, on this Forum's subject car, in actual tests done by Consumer Reports. What more proof are you looking for?

    A good point. If the statistics on accidents, esp. on fatal accidents are the only and final determinant on the ABS' effectiveness or lack thereof, then the CR report would prove that ABS made no difference since clearly CR test drivers did not get into accidents testing these cars with or without ABS. But the fact remains that their ABS-equipped Versa stopped far short of the distance that a non-ABS Versa required in their testing. This difference cannot be disputed. How you impute a particular meaning to the shorter stopping distance obtained with the ABS is up to each of us. But I for myself can say that I much prefer to stop quicker than not, especially when a pedestrian or deer decides to step in front of my car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So I guess these posts from folks whose orders for ABS-equipped Versas were "cancelled", and the unavailability of ABS-equipped Versas until February, are lies just to tick off Versa fans?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    So I guess these posts from folks whose orders for ABS-equipped Versas were "cancelled", and the unavailability of ABS-equipped Versas until February, are lies just to tick off Versa fans?

    So I guess the Versa SL, ABS, CVT equipped Versa's I've seen with my own eyes are actually mythical Unicorns. ;)

    And the dealer must be lying to me about being able to obtain more. ;)
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    can you post the name of the dealer? It may be close to those looking.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The way I understand it, from personal experience and what I've read here, is that there was a short window of opportunity starting in early August for dealers to order ABS-equipped Versas. But now that window is closed, at least until February. Those ABS-equipped Versas on your dealer's lot were probably ordered during that window. Do you have information to the contrary?
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    That was the same story I received from several dealers....that back in Aug they received some SL CVT with ABS, but not anymore until Feb due to production shifts to the Versa sedan.
  • jacksan1jacksan1 Member Posts: 504
    So I guess the Versa SL, ABS, CVT equipped Versa's I've seen with my own eyes are actually mythical Unicorns.

    No, unlike unicorns, the ABS-equipped Versa SL does exist, or to put it more accurately, has existed. A dealership in Minneapolis-St. Paul told me in early September that one such Versa was incoming. But that one had been sold already, and since then, we haven't seen any SL with ABS in my area. Consumer Reports got a hold of one as well, but after some major efforts. In fact, CR had to delay the current test feature of econoboxes from the November issue to December because they had such a hard time finding a Versa with ABS. If they had not caught that little window of opportunity that people are talking about, the Versa would have showed up in their May 2007 issue (get one in February, test it for two months).
  • thetransp0rterthetransp0rter Member Posts: 2
    Plenty of cars have ABS, so it should be easy to find one. Driving a car without ABS in 2006 is like driving without a seatbelt installed 10 years ago. Are seatbelts communists too? Lots of people are alive today only because they were wearing a seatbelt.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    the problem people have is, they panic and slam the breaks on and don't try and steer around a collison. THAT is what ABS is for... We arn't taught how to avoid accients when we take drivers training. The Allstate commerical is a fine example of this, with the guy driving the Camry down the country road and SLAMS on the brakes and panics, grabs the steering wheel and steers INTO the van in front of him...

    In my line of work, I see TOO many accident in which people panic, freeze and slam into some body...

    ABS works in the perfect work, but since NO ONE lives in the perfect world.

    Tony
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Are you saying then that people should get a car like a Fit or Rio5, which not only have ABS readily available but have better accident-avoidance handling than the Versa (based on tests by CR)?
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    No I didn't say that at all.

    I read the CR report and laughed, I've owned my Versa since July 9th and LOVE IT. It handles very well for every day driving. The Versa handles very well.

    What I said in my post is, was this.... When people panic the freeze, they slam on the brakes and DONT drive out of t he way of the accidents. This has nothing to do with the car, its the driver. As a flight nurse I am dispatched out to accidents scene to pick up severly injured people who have life threating injuries from car accident and etc... I have been to many seminars from all sort of LEA (Law Enforcement Agencies) and it comes down to the drivers. People feel that since thier cars have ABS they can drive faster because the car can stop faster with it. ABS isn't meant to stop the car faster (many auto mag have proven over and over again that non abs car can stop after then cars equipt with abs) but ABS is to help steer you out of the way of accident...

    I know there are people who are going to stay, your full of $hit, but its true...

    BTW the Versa was awarded 5 star front and side impact protection...

    Tony
  • jacksan1jacksan1 Member Posts: 504
    BTW the Versa was awarded 5 star front and side impact protection...

    I thought that the Versa got 4 star instead of 5 for frontal as rated by NHTSA. Try looking the Versa up here:

    NHTSA Safe Car Search

    I totally agree with you about the driver being a critical intervening variable in ABS or other safety situations. However, I would argue that, given the same good driver, a car with ABS presents an extra margin of safety that a car without it cannot.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I agree with jacksan1. You take the same person (good driver or bad) and put them in any car and they probably drive generally the same, so when you say,"People feel that since thier cars have ABS they can drive faster because the car can stop faster with it" that I don't agree with. That's like saying that now people have seatbelts, airbags and crumple zones in their cars they're all going to start driving reckless because they know if they get into a wreck they'll be safer.

    On the other hand, I do think that some people with AWD vehicles (SUVs especially) mistakenly think that because the AWD will help them get out of snowbank and generally provides them better traction driving around in their neighborhoods, when they get on the highway they may feel too secure and end up off the road when they hit some ice where the AWD doesn't help.

    But when you're driving in a car with ABS, you aren't really feeling the ABS like you're feeling the AWD, so I don't think it lulls you into any false sense of security. In fact, my previous car ('99 Cougar) had ABS and traction control, and when I started feeling the ABS kick in at stop signs and during other non-emergency stops, I'd know the conditions were pretty bad, so I would slow down my driving in general. So for me, ABS activation was a signal that the roads are slick and to slow down.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    It always amazes me how people think of themselves as "safe" drivers, yet they tailgate! If you drive closer than 2 seconds than the car in front of you, you are an accident waiting to happen.

    Just watch the rear of the car in front of you pass something like a sign or a phone pole and count one one thousand, two one thousand. Did you get to two one thousand? If not you are too close.

    The other day it was raining cats and dogs. I drove through 3 accident scenes on the interstate and everone else was driving slower than normal...but still tailgating. (Wet roads require a 4 second of seperation and people were still closer than 2.)

    I'm sure some of those people involved in the accidents had ABS. To bad they didn't have common sense.

    Mark.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    And I'm sure that some of the people didn't have ABS. Probably the people interested in getting ABS are safer drivers because of the fact that they're interested in getting the additional safety features.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Opps I thought it was 5 stars across the board..

    Jacksan, all of the car magazine has done articles on this subject, last time was about 10 yrs ago. The conclusion was the cars without ABS stopped faster, but of course these were drivers who knew how to use brakes correctly...

    Tony
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The conclusion was the cars without ABS stopped faster, but of course these were drivers who knew how to use brakes correctly...

    ABS systems on 2006/2007 vehicles have improved since 10 years ago and the conclusion has changed. ABS results in shorter stopping distances.
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