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Comments
The alleged increase in control provided by ABS is not helping people avoid accidents in any statistically visible way.
Mark.
There is no proof that it serves a benefit and yet it makes you feel better.
For that reason alone, Nissan should have made it available.
My point is that if you like the Versa, don't let the ABS be a deal breaker if you can't find a car with it.
Mark.
A 1994 Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) study1 and a subsequent 1995 study2 compared insurance claims for groups of otherwise identical cars with and without antilocks, finding no differences in the overall frequency or cost of crashes for which insurance claims for vehicle damage are filed. Because antilocks should make the most difference on wet and slippery roads, researchers also studied insurance claims experience in 29 northern states during winter months. Even here they found no difference in the frequency of insurance claims for vehicles with and without antilock brakes.
Okay, but this study is over 10 years old, and ABS was put on a lot of sporty cars, so maybe the reason there was no difference was because of the type of car equipped with ABS back in 1994. Hard to say based on this 12 year old study.
A 1997 Institute study3 and a 2001 update4 reported no difference in the overall fatal crash involvement of cars with and without antilocks.
Okay, a new test, but now they're only looking at "fatal crash" statistics. What about non-fatal crashes in this test. That omission makes me think that there was a difference in this test with respect to non-fatal crashes, otherwise they would have said for any crashes like in the previous test. If ABS helps in preventing non-fatal crashes, that's good enough for me!
To continue to quote from this article:
Failure Analysis Associates reported a net beneficial effect of antilocks on nonfatal crashes but no effect on fatal crashes.7
Yes, I picked the quotes that supported my view, but my point is that from my personal experience in simply braking with and without ABS, when I was braking in the snow with ABS I was in more control of the vehicle. Additionally, some of the studies indicate that ABS prevents non-fatal crashes, so that plus my personal experience makes ABS a mandatory item on any car I'd buy.
1) Some put a quite a lot of stock in these written documents. How many have ever done what the other poster did, and actually try it yourself in a snowy parking lot? I'll take first hand data wherever I can get it, and will take a little grain of salt to go with this report that justifies NOT giving insurance discounts to people that buy ABS equipped cars. In other words, TRY IT, and see if you like it - rather than relying on on this information that is at best, a conclusion based n 5-year-old data.
2) If it only provides 2% fewer collisions, that's worth something to me. Collisions are pretty expensive events, and possibly painful or even fatal. Plus, much of the extra $$ I spend today will come back to me in additional resale value.
3) What is overlooked is that ABS now comes with one or two new features not mentioned in the report: Brake Assist (BA), and Electronic Brake Force (EBD)Distribution. So the report could not measure the performance of the new "ABS Package" that we are posting about here. It's not like apples and oranges, but it is like comparing old apples to fresh apples.
When I bought my Toyota Highlander, it came with an ABS package with both of these nifty add-ons, and it has convinced me of its worth several times. The Versa comes with both BA and EBD - the Sentra (and even Altima) specs only mention the EBD coming with the ABS - no BA with them. Unless Nissannews missed another key spec.
I'll bet that the ABS Package is better than ABS alone, and probably performs better than 5-year-old ABS-only systems. The newer designs seem to keep evolving.
Incidentally, the Ford Focus is available with ABS and Side airbags as a "safety package" with a discount.
Mark.
First, I can't find any new Versa SL with ABS, let alone a Versa at all, in my neck of the woods. . .(NYC area)- So what else is new, right? LOL-
Plus I have a question :
Why is it that the SL, the fine machine that it is IMHO,
cannot be optioned with both ABS and the other optional packages COMBINED? It seems that if you want Bluetooth, sunroof and other goodies you can't get ABS, and vice versa.
What's up with that? Anyone have a clue? Could it be that the upcoming SE-R version, next year, will have all this and more available with it? Hmmmmmm. . .:confuse:
Peace! :shades:
cannot be optioned with both ABS and the other optional packages COMBINED? It seems that if you want Bluetooth, sunroof and other goodies you can't get ABS, and vice versa.
What's up with that? Anyone have a clue?
SL is available with all packages combined. Your "clue" is delivered.
I drove an SL with CVT, Audio pkg., Sirius, Sunroof Pkg., Convenience Pkg., and ABS last month.
What are you basing your statement on that you can not obtain a Versal SL with ABS in combination with all of the other optional packages? Are you relying on the Nissan website? The Nissan website "build your Versa" has an error.
Nissan dealer told me this in September and backed up their statement in October with proof when they called to say they had an SL with ALL optional packages in stock. I've seen it with my own eyes and drove it and others have reported buying Versa's with all options in other areas of the US.
The only optional package that is currently not available is the Sport Pkg., which is not even listed yet on the Nissan website and will not be available until early calendar year 2007.
longer we are fortunate that we have the time to do so.
Tony
CR just published a comparo of the Versa and five other models. They tested ABS and non-ABS equipped versions of four of the cars, including the Versa. In each case, they found that the stopping distances for both dry and wet roads increased significantly without ABS. Here are the numbers for the Versa:
With ABS, Dry: 145 ft.
W/O ABS, Dry: 163 ft.
With ABS, Wet: 163 ft.
W/O ABS, Wet: 187 ft.
CR said of the Versa's brakes that braking distances in the non-ABS Versa were some of the longest they had recorded recently, and that the ABS-equipped model was better but still below par.
ABS alone probably wouldn't make the distances shorter, but it's a moot point - ABS isn't sold separately; only with the BA and EBD.
If ABS was so great, crash data would reflect a huge difference in the frequency of crashs of ABS equipped vehicles vs non-abs equipped vehicles.
What a communist statement to say that we should have a "safety" system forced upon us.
I say let market forces control. If you want ABS, go buy a car with ABS. If a car does not have ABS and you want it, DON'T buy it!
If enough people put their money where their mouth is and sales are affected that Nissan will change its behavior. But DON'T tell me I HAVE to buy something.
Mark.
In general, forced regulation is the only way to get big companies to comply with safety, health, environmental, etc rules. They won't do it on their own because there's no profit in it. For example, many cities across America have cleaner air because of emissions regulations, versus the totally free market of 100 years ago and serious pollution everywhere. There has to be a balance between free market and governemtn regulation and the voters determine that to some extent.
Maybe they can put a ABS disable switch on cars for the folks living in the mountains who think ABS is a government communist conspiracy :P
Well, that's the problem, isn't it? The Versa is a fine little car and many people want it with ABS, but it's not available that way now. Nissan isn't even giving Versa buyers the choice of ABS or no ABS--it's just "no ABS."
Well, I guess it's time to get rid of the legislation on the seatbelt and airbag as well. I'd rather die than to be a communist.
Not available? I've seen three SL, CVT, ABS equipped Versa's at the same dealer in the two times I've been there in the last two months. 2 yesterday and 1 last month.
And I was told they could have a fully optioned SL with ABS in color of my choice in 8 weeks at the latest.
You keep comparing apples to oranges here. I agree about ABS alone not being proven, but the Versa option in not ABS alone. And it has been proven to work, on this Forum's subject car, in actual tests done by Consumer Reports. What more proof are you looking for?
I think I can find plenty of studies from the early 90's which show that air bags actually can do harm or kill as well as studies that seatbelts have harmed individuals.
The way I look at it is ABS must have some benefit if the insurance companies are willing to give you a discount if your car is equipped with ABS. These companies wouldn't pay their mother's insurance claim if they could get away with it.
Either way, the Versa should have ABS as standard equipment. If for no other reason thatn their competition has it. I was shocked that the stopping distance without ABS was so much longer. Generally, the distances are pretty close but the ABS gives you the ability to control the vehicle. After a couple of near rear end misses, all my cars will have ABS.
I'll be in the market for a new vehicle in the spring and the Versa is on my list. The availability of ABS is a factor.
A good point. If the statistics on accidents, esp. on fatal accidents are the only and final determinant on the ABS' effectiveness or lack thereof, then the CR report would prove that ABS made no difference since clearly CR test drivers did not get into accidents testing these cars with or without ABS. But the fact remains that their ABS-equipped Versa stopped far short of the distance that a non-ABS Versa required in their testing. This difference cannot be disputed. How you impute a particular meaning to the shorter stopping distance obtained with the ABS is up to each of us. But I for myself can say that I much prefer to stop quicker than not, especially when a pedestrian or deer decides to step in front of my car.
So I guess the Versa SL, ABS, CVT equipped Versa's I've seen with my own eyes are actually mythical Unicorns.
And the dealer must be lying to me about being able to obtain more.
No, unlike unicorns, the ABS-equipped Versa SL does exist, or to put it more accurately, has existed. A dealership in Minneapolis-St. Paul told me in early September that one such Versa was incoming. But that one had been sold already, and since then, we haven't seen any SL with ABS in my area. Consumer Reports got a hold of one as well, but after some major efforts. In fact, CR had to delay the current test feature of econoboxes from the November issue to December because they had such a hard time finding a Versa with ABS. If they had not caught that little window of opportunity that people are talking about, the Versa would have showed up in their May 2007 issue (get one in February, test it for two months).
In my line of work, I see TOO many accident in which people panic, freeze and slam into some body...
ABS works in the perfect work, but since NO ONE lives in the perfect world.
Tony
I read the CR report and laughed, I've owned my Versa since July 9th and LOVE IT. It handles very well for every day driving. The Versa handles very well.
What I said in my post is, was this.... When people panic the freeze, they slam on the brakes and DONT drive out of t he way of the accidents. This has nothing to do with the car, its the driver. As a flight nurse I am dispatched out to accidents scene to pick up severly injured people who have life threating injuries from car accident and etc... I have been to many seminars from all sort of LEA (Law Enforcement Agencies) and it comes down to the drivers. People feel that since thier cars have ABS they can drive faster because the car can stop faster with it. ABS isn't meant to stop the car faster (many auto mag have proven over and over again that non abs car can stop after then cars equipt with abs) but ABS is to help steer you out of the way of accident...
I know there are people who are going to stay, your full of $hit, but its true...
BTW the Versa was awarded 5 star front and side impact protection...
Tony
I thought that the Versa got 4 star instead of 5 for frontal as rated by NHTSA. Try looking the Versa up here:
NHTSA Safe Car Search
I totally agree with you about the driver being a critical intervening variable in ABS or other safety situations. However, I would argue that, given the same good driver, a car with ABS presents an extra margin of safety that a car without it cannot.
On the other hand, I do think that some people with AWD vehicles (SUVs especially) mistakenly think that because the AWD will help them get out of snowbank and generally provides them better traction driving around in their neighborhoods, when they get on the highway they may feel too secure and end up off the road when they hit some ice where the AWD doesn't help.
But when you're driving in a car with ABS, you aren't really feeling the ABS like you're feeling the AWD, so I don't think it lulls you into any false sense of security. In fact, my previous car ('99 Cougar) had ABS and traction control, and when I started feeling the ABS kick in at stop signs and during other non-emergency stops, I'd know the conditions were pretty bad, so I would slow down my driving in general. So for me, ABS activation was a signal that the roads are slick and to slow down.
Just watch the rear of the car in front of you pass something like a sign or a phone pole and count one one thousand, two one thousand. Did you get to two one thousand? If not you are too close.
The other day it was raining cats and dogs. I drove through 3 accident scenes on the interstate and everone else was driving slower than normal...but still tailgating. (Wet roads require a 4 second of seperation and people were still closer than 2.)
I'm sure some of those people involved in the accidents had ABS. To bad they didn't have common sense.
Mark.
Jacksan, all of the car magazine has done articles on this subject, last time was about 10 yrs ago. The conclusion was the cars without ABS stopped faster, but of course these were drivers who knew how to use brakes correctly...
Tony
ABS systems on 2006/2007 vehicles have improved since 10 years ago and the conclusion has changed. ABS results in shorter stopping distances.