Yes, I saw the picture. Looks remarkably like the interior of the Ody with the RH 2nd row captain's chair removed. And if it's how you keep it most of the time, why couldn't you do the same with the Ody?
My point was that with the Ody, I can push the two 2nd row seats together creating easy access to the rear AND still sit two in the 2nd row.
I could do the same with the Ody. But that still wouldn't give me the extra storage, or the ability to store the other seat if I needed to. Plus that would be one more thing to stuff in my garage. I don't have to plan ahead with the Dodge. I don't have to worry about something unexpected coming up. I am ready no matter what comes up. Except for having to stuff eight people in it at one time. Don't see me ever having to do that.
Let's say my wife and I go over to our daughter's house to visit and after awhile my Daughter says, Dad, let's all go to the park so the kids can play. If I took that seat out of the Ody before, now we'd have to take two vehicles because I was one seat short. With the Dodge, I just raise the seat and we go in my van.
I think we are talking past each other (in this and the other thread). Let's try to clear the air a bit.
Both the Ody and the Caravan (and the Sienna, etc. since this isn't a make specific forum) have advantages and disadvantages to their seating systems.
Why not JUST state the advantages (and acknowledge the disadvantages) without trying to proclaim one design or the other as more 'family friendly'? After all, what may be more 'friendly' to your family may not be more 'friendly' to mine or the next guy's or the next guy's.
I will NOT debate with you that Dodge's sto'n'go is the easiest to convert from people carrying to cargo carrying. I also acknowledge that this design gives the owner two fairly large in-floor storage bins vs. one for the Ody. At the same time, this design means the bins must be emptied to store the seats and on the Dodge these bins are not lockable.
Also, this means that the Dodge seats are fixed in place and can't be shifted laterally. The Ody (and Sienna, MPV, etc.) RH seat can be repositioned.
Whether or not these issues are important to me (rorr) or to you (marine2) is completely immaterial. I'm not trying to convince you to sell your Dodge just as (I hope) you're not trying to convince me to sell my Ody. I'd like to simply point out these issues and let OTHERS decide if they are important to them or not. Trying to declare one design or the other as more 'family friendly' is not fair because you have no authority to decide FOR EVERYBODY what constitutes 'family friendly'.
What I WILL debate with you is the wisdom of carrying cargo in the middle of the van with passengers in the 3rd row. Yes, I'm aware this is easy to do with sto'n'go seating in DCX vans. Yes, I'm also aware that you attempt to take precautions to secure this cargo. However, not everyone else will do so (I believe very very few take any precautions to secure cargo behind the 2nd row; why would they behave any differently with cargo located in the middle of the passenger compartment). And I will also tell you that my wife would think I was certifiable if I suggested putting the kids in the 3rd row so I could haul cargo in the middle. And I don't think I'm alone in that regard.
So why don't we simply agree that each system has it's advantages and it's disadvantages without trying to declare one or the other more suitable for 'families' (I know that I can't speak for any families beyond my own).
I have no problem with that. We all buy our vans for different reasons. Some people wouldn't think of putting cargo in their van, afraid they would scratch or tear someting up. Others use their vans for taking family and cargo. Some need eight seats and some only need 5 or seven seats. Some will buy with safety being their top priority, others don't. Some will buy on looks, others will buy on proven dependability. Some will buy because of gas mileage, some because of goodies they can get. Some because of price. There are many reasons why we choose the minivans we do. What's right for you, might not be right for me.
Where I place kids and cargo so far has been a mute point for me. So far, I have never had to haul cargo with my grand kids at the same time. But I see nothing wrong in placing them in the rear, anymore than having to put them there if I was carrying two more children. I see them as even being safer back there if the cargo ever broke lose. I have no problem putting cargo in the back as long as it's not heavy and requires me to lift it by myself. Many of the stuff I haul does go back there. Problem being, there is little, if any hooks to secure cargo in the back. Others, I use the side door. I like having the option of doing it anyway I wish. That's why I like my van so much. I have control of what I can put in it at all times no matter what comes up.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue of cargo in the 2nd row/kids in the 3rd row and move on. We've probably monopolized this topic enough as it is and I don't think either one of us will ever 'convice' the other on this minute sub-issue.
It sounds like you bought the right van for YOUR desires/intended use.
Nobody mentioned that Toyota Sienna is the only minivan to offer a fold-flat front passenger seat for hauling long cargo.
About the DCX vans, I own a '05 Dodge GC, and I must admit that the rear seats are NOT very comfortable. The middle row seats are small, and even with the headrests pushed up, it will never feel the same as a full padded seat with comfy armrests (like the pre-2005 DCX vans and current Sienna & Ody), and the rear seats are even worse, you sit with your knees up like you're taking off in a jet.... Plus the seats are way too firm, despite Chrysler's claim that this is a special foam developed and used by NASA...
Also, since DC vans introduced the stow'n'go system, the van is much noisier than before, you hear the engine and muffler noice much louder than pre-2005 vans.
I had forgotten about Toyota's ability to fold the front passenger seat flat (seat back folded forward) although to be honest I'm not sure how I would use this feature.
As far as seat comfort goes, it's been my experience that seat comfort is VERY subjective. I think folks are better off giving seats a trial fit rather than try to make up their minds based on opinions in a forum.
Case in point: back when the current Ody was being released, I read several posts from folks complaining about front seat comfort (and back pain). After owning our Ody, my only complaint is the reach to the steering wheel when my seat is adjusted for adequate legroom. Otherwise, I find the seats to be very nice.
About the DCX vans, I own a '05 Dodge GC, and I must admit that the rear seats are NOT very comfortable. The middle row seats are small, and even with the headrests pushed up, it will never feel the same as a full padded seat with comfy armrests (like the pre-2005 DCX vans and current Sienna & Ody), and the rear seats are even worse, you sit with your knees up like you're taking off in a jet.... Plus the seats are way too firm, despite Chrysler's claim that this is a special foam developed and used by NASA...
I never sat in the third row seats and don't plan to. The grand kids set back there.
The second row seats are narrower and firmer and although they will never feel as soft as a full seat, I don't think you can say they are uncomfortable. I have ridden in them.
Also, since DC vans introduced the stow'n'go system, the van is much noisier than before, you hear the engine and muffler noice much louder than pre-2005 vans.
I have never owned a minivan before, but the only noise I hear is from the tires. My brother has a 2001,( I think I said before it was a 1991) and he said mine was much quieter than his. No rattles at all. If you are complaining of engine and muffler noise, getting it sprayed with an under coatng would probably do wonders for it.
Seats should be comfy for the grand children as well. As I drove so many minivans before, and also drive now one at work (besides my own), I know what I'm writing. It's no question that the new stow'n'go system is very good and is the way to go. but the seats are inferior to the DC vans prior to 2005, and is "MORE" uncomfortable than before. HOW MUCH uncomfortable remains subjective.
I drive a 2003 T&C at work, and the ride is smoother and much quieter than my '05 Caravan. Even CR agrees and says that since '05, noise levels has increased. I CAN spray with under-coating? Thanks for the suggestion (I'll probably never do it), but still, the van is more noisy in the first place, despit Chrysler's claim that the van is now 16% quieter than before (due to added sound insulation under the hood).
The rear seats of the Sienna and Ody are much more comfortable & padded, these minivans were built with the rear seat folding into the floor in mind, so they created a big well behind the 3rd row, and made the rear seat big and padded enough. Chrysler & Dodge, on the other hand, created them as an "afterthought" - the current generation minivan was built with a regular seat in rear with no well behind the 3rd row, (hence, the well in the DC vans are way smaller than those in the Sienna/Ody). And that's why the seats are so thin padded. I'm certain that the next gen DC vans will be competitive in that area.
"Chrysler & Dodge, on the other hand, created them as an "afterthought" - the current generation minivan was built with a regular seat in rear with no well behind the 3rd row, (hence, the well in the DC vans are way smaller than those in the Sienna/Ody). And that's why the seats are so thin padded. I'm certain that the next gen DC vans will be competitive in that area."
That I would believe. In addition, the seatbelt systems and seat cushion angle can make child seat installations in the third row very difficult compared to many other minivans. Stow 'n Go is a great concept, just like the folding 3rd row seat was. The first implementations were functional, but there was still a lot of room for improvement. Just look at how the folding third row seats are now for comfort and convenience compared to the original designs. Stow 'n Go will be copied, just as it will also be improved.
It will be interesting what Chrysler does with the new generation coming out next year with them. I understand they intend to keep stow-n-go, so I am sure they will get better. Only wish I had leased my van so I could get the new one. I'm keeping this one till the warranty runs out.
I know there aren't a lot of Nissan Quests out there on the road, but the 2nd row folding seats offers a virtually flat cargo area and are much more comfortable than the Caravan. I tested the Sienna, but did not try the fold flat passenger seat; with the 2nd row seats tumbled forward, is there a open space all the way to the front?
NOT in the Quests I have closely examined. And there was too little space for the toes under the seats for 2nd or 3rd row passengers. :sick: The Odyssey, Sienna, T&C, and Grand Caravan had more comfortable seats for me than did the Nissan Quest...in all rows. However, the biggest turn off for me was the ghastly instrument panel of the Quest.
It wouldn't be the Dodge/Chrysler. But when you consider how easy they do store and how much storage space they have when seats are up. there is nothing out there to beat them.
There is nothing flimsy about them at all. Both rows lock in place when upright with a solid latching mechanism, no squeeks, no rattles, and the seat structure is very rigid, in both rows. Floor covers are very rigid and solid as well. About the only thing one can complain about them is they are definitely firm, though not, in my opinion uncomfortable, and the second row seats are a bit smaller than the equivalent captains chairs before Stow and Go.
Hard to beat the ease of storing them, however, and when upright, you have storage space under the floor that equals the trunk space of some sedans.
There is nothing flimsy about them at all. Both rows lock in place when upright with a solid latching mechanism, no squeeks, no rattles, and the seat structure is very rigid, in both rows.
Agree 100%!!!! Flimsy is the last word that would ever come to mind to describe these seat.
It seems much easier to fold the 3rd row seats into the floor of my 2006 Sienna LE now that it did before I had folded them many times. We normally fold the right 40 % into the floor when grocery shopping. We place the loaves of bread, bananas, potato chips (or like items) onto the folded portion and the rest of the groceries into the well behind the 60 %. Those built in hooks on the back of the 3rd row are nice to hook some of the plastic grocery sacks onto so they don't slip if the entire well is not full. :shades:
Toyota's ability to fold the front passenger seat flat (seat back folded forward) although to be honest I'm not sure how I would use this feature
I've used this about 4-5 times, and I've only owned my van since May.
Basically it was useful when I need to bring home some 16' trex decking. I could not put it on the roof because it flexes and hit the van. I slid it inside and then tied it to an open hatch, and made it home.
You could probably do this without folding the front seat but it would not be easy, and you'd probably scratch the interior.
Also, my wife sits in the middle row with the 2 kids (we have the 8 seat model with 3 individual, comfortable seats) and she uses the front seat as a foot rest! Luxury bay-bee!
Lean back, put your feet up, enjoy a movie on the 12.1" screen we had installed.
Quote: " Toyota's ability to fold the front passenger seat flat (seat back folded forward) although to be honest I'm not sure how I would use this feature
I've used this about 4-5 times, and I've only owned my van since May. (end quote)
I have NEVER used the fold flat front passenger seat feature BUT because of that wretched feature, the front passenger seat is NOT as comfortable for me as the cheaper non-fold flat seat of the Sienna CE. :shades:
Well the new 2008 Dodge and Chrysler mini vans will have a one touch power bench, third row seat available. Can't get much easier than that.
This is a slamdunk for Chrysler. Anyone needing "EASIEST seat STORAGE" can only conclude this. Sure Toyota may have a power 3rd row, or some may feel their seat mechanism is of a better design etc... but no other manufacturer offers the complete package Chrysler does.
While Stow-n-Go is certainly the most flexible, I sort of doube someone with a bad back will find it easy to flip and fold those seats. Even worse, imagine having to bend down and pick those seats out of that hole with a bad back.
Ain't happening. I've sprained my back. No way could I have bent over and lifted anything.
I'd say the easiest 2nd row would definitely go to Nissan. In the Quest, the seats just lean forward, and there's no heavy lifting.
Sadly, Nissan's 3rd row may be the very worst - it doesn't even split fold! :sick:
I sort of doubt anyone with a bad back would find it even possible to remove the 2nd row seat from all other minivans. You'd have a much better chance of storing the Stow N Go seats then any other, except maybe the Nissan's but then Nissan's don't really store (they're still there) and give you a flat floor, they just fold on top the floor.
I had to go out to my 2005 with Stow N Go and try this, since it's been a year since I had the seats out of their pockets.
Actually there's no heavy lifting in the Stow N Go seats, the trickiest part is the lid covers. The seats themselves are spring activated and tumble into the storage hole with no effort whatsoever. Just pull on the release tab then the spring tumbles them into the floor. To get them out - lift cover, pull handle and they tumble back into place. Pulling the handle requires the most effort of the entire exercise because you're pulling against gravity, but even then the spring offers leverage. It's not you against the entire weight of the seat! There's no need to "pick" seats out of a hole - you make it sound difficult and troublesome - that's hardly the situation.
FYI - next year T&C Limited will off full power 2nd and 3rd row storage.
I agree that removing the seats with a bad back is simply not an option. They're all too heavy.
In the Sienna they fold and tumble forward. You pretty much only have to pull the knob. They're not entirely out of the way, but it requires no effort at all. Lifting is harder, of course.
I'll take your word for it with the Stow-n-Go, as I haven't tried those in a while.
Perhaps the question should be - what is the owner going to load in all this space with a bad back? It's not like you can lift anything that big.
If you're getting help loading then I'm sure you could get help folding seats, I suppose.
On my Dodge, there's 3 straps labeled 1, 2, and 3. With one finger you can do all three steps. On a 2008 there's one button to push, requiring only the tip of a finger - not even your entire finger!!!
They may, but I drive a CE, and I have had a heckuva time getting my 3rd seats to unfold..... don't know why, but I have. And for me to bend for any length of time, which I have to do to fold or unfold those seats, will cause my back to hurt. And since I am single, sometimes there's not someone around all of the time to help. And yes, reading the directions does help, just not my back! The second row seats do tumble..... the salesman did it the other day when he was trying to move one over for me.
I've sprained my back and one thing I learned to do is never lift with my back. I will at least brace myself with my other arm, or let my knees do the lifting.
It's hard when you are reaching in, though, so try the foot on the bumper step idea.
Comments
My point was that with the Ody, I can push the two 2nd row seats together creating easy access to the rear AND still sit two in the 2nd row.
I could do the same with the Ody. But that still wouldn't give me the extra storage, or the ability to store the other seat if I needed to. Plus that would be one more thing to stuff in my garage. I don't have to plan ahead with the Dodge. I don't have to worry about something unexpected coming up. I am ready no matter what comes up. Except for having to stuff eight people in it at one time. Don't see me ever having to do that.
Both the Ody and the Caravan (and the Sienna, etc. since this isn't a make specific forum) have advantages and disadvantages to their seating systems.
Why not JUST state the advantages (and acknowledge the disadvantages) without trying to proclaim one design or the other as more 'family friendly'? After all, what may be more 'friendly' to your family may not be more 'friendly' to mine or the next guy's or the next guy's.
I will NOT debate with you that Dodge's sto'n'go is the easiest to convert from people carrying to cargo carrying. I also acknowledge that this design gives the owner two fairly large in-floor storage bins vs. one for the Ody. At the same time, this design means the bins must be emptied to store the seats and on the Dodge these bins are not lockable.
Also, this means that the Dodge seats are fixed in place and can't be shifted laterally. The Ody (and Sienna, MPV, etc.) RH seat can be repositioned.
Whether or not these issues are important to me (rorr) or to you (marine2) is completely immaterial. I'm not trying to convince you to sell your Dodge just as (I hope) you're not trying to convince me to sell my Ody. I'd like to simply point out these issues and let OTHERS decide if they are important to them or not. Trying to declare one design or the other as more 'family friendly' is not fair because you have no authority to decide FOR EVERYBODY what constitutes 'family friendly'.
What I WILL debate with you is the wisdom of carrying cargo in the middle of the van with passengers in the 3rd row. Yes, I'm aware this is easy to do with sto'n'go seating in DCX vans. Yes, I'm also aware that you attempt to take precautions to secure this cargo. However, not everyone else will do so (I believe very very few take any precautions to secure cargo behind the 2nd row; why would they behave any differently with cargo located in the middle of the passenger compartment). And I will also tell you that my wife would think I was certifiable if I suggested putting the kids in the 3rd row so I could haul cargo in the middle. And I don't think I'm alone in that regard.
So why don't we simply agree that each system has it's advantages and it's disadvantages without trying to declare one or the other more suitable for 'families' (I know that I can't speak for any families beyond my own).
Where I place kids and cargo so far has been a mute point for me. So far, I have never had to haul cargo with my grand kids at the same time. But I see nothing wrong in placing them in the rear, anymore than having to put them there if I was carrying two more children. I see them as even being safer back there if the cargo ever broke lose. I have no problem putting cargo in the back as long as it's not heavy and requires me to lift it by myself. Many of the stuff I haul does go back there. Problem being, there is little, if any hooks to secure cargo in the back. Others, I use the side door. I like having the option of doing it anyway I wish. That's why I like my van so much. I have control of what I can put in it at all times no matter what comes up.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue of cargo in the 2nd row/kids in the 3rd row and move on. We've probably monopolized this topic enough as it is and I don't think either one of us will ever 'convice' the other on this minute sub-issue.
It sounds like you bought the right van for YOUR desires/intended use.
Happy trails...
About the DCX vans, I own a '05 Dodge GC, and I must admit that the rear seats are NOT very comfortable. The middle row seats are small, and even with the headrests pushed up, it will never feel the same as a full padded seat with comfy armrests (like the pre-2005 DCX vans and current Sienna & Ody), and the rear seats are even worse, you sit with your knees up like you're taking off in a jet.... Plus the seats are way too firm, despite Chrysler's claim that this is a special foam developed and used by NASA...
Also, since DC vans introduced the stow'n'go system, the van is much noisier than before, you hear the engine and muffler noice much louder than pre-2005 vans.
As far as seat comfort goes, it's been my experience that seat comfort is VERY subjective. I think folks are better off giving seats a trial fit rather than try to make up their minds based on opinions in a forum.
Case in point: back when the current Ody was being released, I read several posts from folks complaining about front seat comfort (and back pain). After owning our Ody, my only complaint is the reach to the steering wheel when my seat is adjusted for adequate legroom. Otherwise, I find the seats to be very nice.
Post 43;-)
I never sat in the third row seats and don't plan to. The grand kids set back there.
The second row seats are narrower and firmer and although they will never feel as soft as a full seat, I don't think you can say they are uncomfortable. I have ridden in them.
Also, since DC vans introduced the stow'n'go system, the van is much noisier than before, you hear the engine and muffler noice much louder than pre-2005 vans.
I have never owned a minivan before, but the only noise I hear is from the tires. My brother has a 2001,( I think I said before it was a 1991) and he said mine was much quieter than his. No rattles at all. If you are complaining of engine and muffler noise, getting it sprayed with an under coatng would probably do wonders for it.
Seats should be comfy for the grand children as well. As I drove so many minivans before, and also drive now one at work (besides my own), I know what I'm writing. It's no question that the new stow'n'go system is very good and is the way to go. but the seats are inferior to the DC vans prior to 2005, and is "MORE" uncomfortable than before. HOW MUCH uncomfortable remains subjective.
I drive a 2003 T&C at work, and the ride is smoother and much quieter than my '05 Caravan. Even CR agrees and says that since '05, noise levels has increased. I CAN spray with under-coating? Thanks for the suggestion (I'll probably never do it), but still, the van is more noisy in the first place, despit Chrysler's claim that the van is now 16% quieter than before (due to added sound insulation under the hood).
The rear seats of the Sienna and Ody are much more comfortable & padded, these minivans were built with the rear seat folding into the floor in mind, so they created a big well behind the 3rd row, and made the rear seat big and padded enough. Chrysler & Dodge, on the other hand, created them as an "afterthought" - the current generation minivan was built with a regular seat in rear with no well behind the 3rd row, (hence, the well in the DC vans are way smaller than those in the Sienna/Ody). And that's why the seats are so thin padded. I'm certain that the next gen DC vans will be competitive in that area.
That I would believe. In addition, the seatbelt systems and seat cushion angle can make child seat installations in the third row very difficult compared to many other minivans. Stow 'n Go is a great concept, just like the folding 3rd row seat was. The first implementations were functional, but there was still a lot of room for improvement. Just look at how the folding third row seats are now for comfort and convenience compared to the original designs. Stow 'n Go will be copied, just as it will also be improved.
The Odyssey, Sienna, T&C, and Grand Caravan had more comfortable seats for me than did the Nissan Quest...in all rows. However, the biggest turn off for me was the ghastly instrument panel of the Quest.
Hard to beat the ease of storing them, however, and when upright, you have storage space under the floor that equals the trunk space of some sedans.
Agree 100%!!!! Flimsy is the last word that would ever come to mind to describe these seat.
We normally fold the right 40 % into the floor when grocery shopping. We place the loaves of bread, bananas, potato chips (or like items) onto the folded portion and the rest of the groceries into the well behind the 60 %. Those built in hooks on the back of the 3rd row are nice to hook some of the plastic grocery sacks onto so they don't slip if the entire well is not full. :shades:
I've used this about 4-5 times, and I've only owned my van since May.
Basically it was useful when I need to bring home some 16' trex decking. I could not put it on the roof because it flexes and hit the van. I slid it inside and then tied it to an open hatch, and made it home.
You could probably do this without folding the front seat but it would not be easy, and you'd probably scratch the interior.
Also, my wife sits in the middle row with the 2 kids (we have the 8 seat model with 3 individual, comfortable seats) and she uses the front seat as a foot rest! Luxury bay-bee!
Lean back, put your feet up, enjoy a movie on the 12.1" screen we had installed.
Very nice! :shades:
Still, the new Dodge has plenty innovations of its own.
" Toyota's ability to fold the front passenger seat flat (seat back folded forward) although to be honest I'm not sure how I would use this feature
I've used this about 4-5 times, and I've only owned my van since May. (end quote)
I have NEVER used the fold flat front passenger seat feature BUT because of that wretched feature, the front passenger seat is NOT as comfortable for me as the cheaper non-fold flat seat of the Sienna CE. :shades:
Saturn was really cool about that, they told me to take the Outlook home for the weekend. I said, wow! :surprise:
Too bad visibility was poor. I backed over the curb, oops!
This is a slamdunk for Chrysler. Anyone needing "EASIEST seat STORAGE" can only conclude this. Sure Toyota may have a power 3rd row, or some may feel their seat mechanism is of a better design etc... but no other manufacturer offers the complete package Chrysler does.
Ain't happening. I've sprained my back. No way could I have bent over and lifted anything.
I'd say the easiest 2nd row would definitely go to Nissan. In the Quest, the seats just lean forward, and there's no heavy lifting.
Sadly, Nissan's 3rd row may be the very worst - it doesn't even split fold! :sick:
I had to go out to my 2005 with Stow N Go and try this, since it's been a year since I had the seats out of their pockets.
Actually there's no heavy lifting in the Stow N Go seats, the trickiest part is the lid covers. The seats themselves are spring activated and tumble into the storage hole with no effort whatsoever. Just pull on the release tab then the spring tumbles them into the floor. To get them out - lift cover, pull handle and they tumble back into place. Pulling the handle requires the most effort of the entire exercise because you're pulling against gravity, but even then the spring offers leverage. It's not you against the entire weight of the seat! There's no need to "pick" seats out of a hole - you make it sound difficult and troublesome - that's hardly the situation.
FYI - next year T&C Limited will off full power 2nd and 3rd row storage.
In the Sienna they fold and tumble forward. You pretty much only have to pull the knob. They're not entirely out of the way, but it requires no effort at all. Lifting is harder, of course.
I'll take your word for it with the Stow-n-Go, as I haven't tried those in a while.
Perhaps the question should be - what is the owner going to load in all this space with a bad back? It's not like you can lift anything that big.
If you're getting help loading then I'm sure you could get help folding seats, I suppose.
I believe the 2nd row doesn't tumble forward, at least last time I tried one (2007 model). You have to lift them out, correct?
I've sprained my back and one thing I learned to do is never lift with my back. I will at least brace myself with my other arm, or let my knees do the lifting.
It's hard when you are reaching in, though, so try the foot on the bumper step idea.