By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
use whatever sources you want but my experiences with CR tells me to look and make sure if they say the sky is blue. I have seen them give one make of something a high score and another make of the same thing a poor score even though both came off the same assembly line and the only difference was the name that was slapped on it.
Now while J.D. Powers has its own issues I would trust them a whole lot more as they do take a scientifically selected sample that is representative of the population as a whole.
I tend to talk to people that have the cars, and read these boards as part of my research.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's why I basically don't CARE what CR says about it. Most people have NO CLUE as to what the black dot really means. They just see it, and go "bad car, won't buy it". Which I think is very misleading.
Even with the JD Powers Initial Satisfaction Survey, I think a "good" rating means something like 1 defect per 100 cars, while a "bad" rating means something like 2 defects per 100 cars. Both numbers are quite low when you consider the thousands of parts in a vehicle, and consider where vehicle quality was 20 to 30 years ago.
If people really knew that THAT'S the kind of differences we're talking about, they probably wouldn't be paying 5 grand more for a car that is improved by such a small amount.
One of the issues I have with JD Powers is what kind of defects are we talking about. Suppose the car with the 2 issues had one knob falling off the radio and the light bulb in the cargo area going out and the car with the one issue was that the engine falls out when you hit 50 MPH?
If people really knew that THAT'S the kind of differences we're talking about, they probably wouldn't be paying 5 grand more for a car that is improved by such a small amount.
That is so true, for the most part the difference between a very good car and a poor car is very slight, maybe a few extra issues per 100 cars. With the possible exception of a few cars every car out there is highly reliable.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
JD Powers is a customer satisfaction survey company. They do no independent testing of the cars. Their reporting is based on customer opinions. There may or not be a scientific rational for the opinions voiced by those surveyed.
CU purchases the cars that they rate. The testing that is performed on these cars is conducted in a uniform, scientific manner. Their tests may not help all buyers because their particular tests and models that they have chosen are not important to all buyers. Their tests factor in financial concerns, so that their highest rated product does not necessarily mean it is the best product.
The results of each companies reports should be used as just one tool employed by the customer to assist in making the ultimate decision.
That's what they want you to believe but their human imperfection has been displayed numerous times. I have seen them quote options/specs/etc that don't exist on the model they're testing. The earlier example of rating identical vehicles (aside from labeling) being rated differently, etc.
While the high-end "car mags" (MT, C&D, etc) don't do a lot of reliability testing, the information they DO report on is almost always 100% accurate and anything they miss is usually caught in-house or by a reader and corrected in the very next issue.
CU is an early warning for me. If they report a make is having issues, I pay more attention but I don't take CU's word outright. They have proven to be inaccurate at best, biased at worst.
Exactly my point. All of the reports can be flawed and should none should be used exclusively in making the final decision.
In many cases, the worst person to ask is one who has recently purchased the model. They are biased, and in some cases feel foolish for perhaps making a poor decision.
As such the JD Powers' of the world mean nothing because the vast majority of those surveyed WANT to be happy with what they just bought especially relative to what they paid for it. So JD Powers can come to me and ask me about my Avalon and I would tell them now that it is quite simply the best car I've ever owned, and later with some 20-20 hindsight (and a few problems accumulated with perhaps another 100k miles or so) I might tell them something completely different - as would the CRs of the world if this becomes the case.
CU and many car magazines do long term reviews of many models. As you say, most owners are satisfied with their purchase at the time of the initial survey. After a period of time and more milage on their cars, they may have a different view.
One needs to have driven the car for at least a couple of months and about 10k miles to decide if it was a good or bad decision.
for my part a lot longer than that - if, for example, my tranny fails at 60001 miles and I get stuck with a $4 grand repair bill - I think my 'everything thing is great' opinion on my Avalon might just change a little - even if I could convince Toyota to cover the bill! For the first 44k, though, it has been a good decision.
For the average driver, waiting until 60k miles might be a little long to form their opinion, although some of the car magazines track cars for extended periods of time.
as does that 'nasty' CU (primarily thru those surveys)! I'm not condoning CUs obvious preferences or agendas, and they, just like any of us, can and will make bad judgements or incorrect assessments - but I don't believe there is a more umimpeachable source of car info for most of the car buying public available. What I don't understand is why many buyers will assume that the organization must somehow be biased, if they might happen to rate what they might personally be driving poorly. Or maybe it is that ego thing I mentioned earlier.
It is that incompetence thing when it comes to uncorrected mistakes or failure to adjust their rating systems to give a fair assessment of the products they rate. Unfortunately, they are considered the authority; unfortunately, they don't recognize the responsibility of that "title." :P
Yeah and your magazine subscription doesn't cover the cost of printing and mailing the magazine. Think about that for a minute.
If CR told me the sky is blue I would still check just to make sure.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
OK. I thought about that and I think you are very wrong. My subscription more than covers those costs (and I pay a reduced multi-year rate).
So I also think you had no grounds to make the comment you made in message #630. CR explicitly does NOT accept advertising or any other form of commercial support.
Do you actually have any evidence that CR does NOT purchase anonymously the cars (or any other items) that they test? If yes, please disclose your evidence. If no, please retract the groundless allegation in your message #630. Thank you.
To my knowledge, CU , as you state, purchases all of the items that they test.
Although any test procedure can be flawed, or the person doing the testing be biased, CU at least tests all of the cars in the same manner.
My problem with CU is that their results largely reflect economic value rather than the "best" product. They usually do not focus on "top of the line" models.
van
Actually I am very right. No magazine out there covers the costs of producing and distributing it in the cover price.
Do you actually have any evidence that CR does NOT purchase anonymously the cars (or any other items) that they test?
Oh I know they purchase them, but you have to ask yourself how they get the money.
I will retract nothing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
How about asking them! This wasn't all that hard to find...
----------
"We thank the 500,000 donors who believe that Consumer Reports is not only a trusted authority on consumer products and services, but is also dedicated
to changing the marketplace.
The $18.1 million in contributions they gave in FY 2006 allow us to address issues that affect the quality of life and safety of consumers across the country and around the world.
Donations given to the Consumer Reports Foundation go
directly to underwriting our product purchasing, testing, and research, and to programs that support our mission, including public education, public safety, and consumer protection.
All our donations adhere to a strict ethical code.We ensure
that no commercial conflicts of interest taint our work and
that the donations are from individuals only, not businesses. All donations over $10,000 are scrutinized by our Ethics Review Committee to ensure that no real or perceived conflict of interest exists."
http://www.consumerreports.org/annualreport/annualreport2006.pdf
"It is better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness"...
snake - you are way way out in left field here (or maybe in the bleachers) - your implication I guess that CU is secretly accepting money (or being given cars) from the Toyotas or Hondas of the world so they can finance what has to be a rather expensive car purchase and testing program? So, therefore, they have a reason to 'support' or 'overrate' those cos. products? And, I guess, they must be getting free plasma TVs from Sony in exchange for ratings? Cynicism is reaching new lows!
Where does it get the money? In this case, subscriptions (subscribing to CR is much more expensive than it is to CD/RT and the magazine itself costs a whole lot less to publish sans the advertising) and a whole lot of donations. BTW, if you have any doubt, look over CUs financial statements (they are available to members) and you would know the answer to your allegations before you make them.
The enthusiast mags., on the other hand, are different, they discount their subscription rates heavily, so they can sell market penetration to advertisers, who in turn allow that magazine to hopefully make money - and, yes, car are 'loaned' to those mags. all the time.
Leeeeet the Sun shine in, the Suuuuun shine iiiiin...
[best 60's singing voice icon]...
Thank you for your exemplary response in #635. You brightened up my morning
havalongavalon
Nope but for now thats all I can say.
and a whole lot of donations.
Bingo.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
http://www.consumerreports.org/annualreport/annualreport2006.pdf
... and jump through a goodly number of legal hoops, and failure to accurately identify their sources of funding and expenditures would elicit severe penalties.
There are many companies that CU has ticked-off over the years and CU has been sued for some of their ratings, but to date I don't believe they've lost any of the lawsuits brought against them, a pretty good track record for their honesty and integrity.
Of course, if "this guy in the finance department" has inside knowledge of chicanery, I'm sure he has/will go to the authorities with the appropriate proof and start the ball rolling to bring CU down in tattered ruins... :shades:
And as a publically traded company so was Enron....Opps.
Please don't get me started on these so called "independent auditors".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
'vintage' drivetrains and designs had better be reliable, otherwise they would have nothing else to offer?
So, having had a Hyundai and an Avalon, for a few years, my satisfaction remained high enough for me to buy the Azera over the Avalon. If the two cars were exactly the same price, I would probably go for the Avalon due to resale value and dealer network, not because I think the Avalon is better, but because people like you think its true.
you misinterpret my post, while the Avalon may have IMO a better drivetrain, superior egronomics, better power and FE - that doesn't necessarily make it a better value. The Azera is THAT close. The Azera, while it has been doing very well to now, is still an unknown in terms of both long term reliability and resale. When I bought my Avalon, the Azera wasn't available - if it had been, I too would have had to do some real thinking about the extra $ - again, the Azera is THAT close - and neither car the 05+ Avalon or the 06+ Azera are even related to your old 00 Avalon or the XG350. They both have improved that much, although I believe that Hyundai has taken a much larger step than Toyota has.
Since I am a certifiable 'car nut' and do try to keep abreast of what's out there, I do have a number of friends that have been known to 'rely' on me for car advice -I recommended they look at the Azera - 2 of them did buy one - and they are still friends and also 'happy campers'. Besides which, what a decrepit old geezer like me thinks, shouldn't make any difference to you anyway?
If you have the coin go for it. Sport sedans and lux cars are usually worth it in real terms and in ego gratification. Kind of like a trophy wife, great to have, but sometimes very high maintenance. All can manage a trip to the grocery store.
I don't see that at all. I guess I'm blind. Either that, or foreign-car buyers are smoking hallucinogenic substances. :P
OR, spend it on something more enjoyable than a mode of transportation.
About 4,000 mi. now and I have no "clunks", rattles or anything else. I am still VERY happy every time I get in my Azera. The more I drive it, the happier I am with the decision I made. The only thing I wish it had was satellite radio (as the ones now being built in Korea and getting shipped over have), but I can add it, if I get desperate.
If you pull the trigger on the Azera do your homework regarding factory incentives (they change monthly) Be sure on the front side you get a written understanding that all computer settings will be included, preferrably before you drive off and head home. Meaning...limp home, door lock options, etc. Otherwise, they will nick you for $45 minimum on the back side. Take a tire pressure gauge with you too.
It's a great car, you'll love it.