Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala

bruneau1

so where do we go for reliable information if not to CR??? I don't read CR like the Bible the way some do, and I am still willing to take a chance on vehicles that don't have the top reliability scores. After all, even a below average in the CR method means over 3%. That is a pretty high standard these days. But if all that matters is the red dot , then pick red dot vehicles. I wouldn't want an Azera no matter how many red dots it got. Its seats suck.

snakeweasel

so where do we go for reliable information if not to CR???

use whatever sources you want but my experiences with CR tells me to look and make sure if they say the sky is blue. I have seen them give one make of something a high score and another make of the same thing a poor score even though both came off the same assembly line and the only difference was the name that was slapped on it.

Now while J.D. Powers has its own issues I would trust them a whole lot more as they do take a scientifically selected sample that is representative of the population as a whole.

I tend to talk to people that have the cars, and read these boards as part of my research.

barnstormer64

After all, even a below average in the CR method means over 3%. That is a pretty high standard these days.

That's why I basically don't CARE what CR says about it. Most people have NO CLUE as to what the black dot really means. They just see it, and go "bad car, won't buy it". Which I think is very misleading.

barnstormer64

Now while J.D. Powers has its own issues I would trust them a whole lot more as they do take a scientifically selected sample that is representative of the population as a whole.

Even with the JD Powers Initial Satisfaction Survey, I think a "good" rating means something like 1 defect per 100 cars, while a "bad" rating means something like 2 defects per 100 cars. Both numbers are quite low when you consider the thousands of parts in a vehicle, and consider where vehicle quality was 20 to 30 years ago.

If people really knew that THAT'S the kind of differences we're talking about, they probably wouldn't be paying 5 grand more for a car that is improved by such a small amount.

snakeweasel

Even with the JD Powers Initial Satisfaction Survey, I think a "good" rating means something like 1 defect per 100 cars, while a "bad" rating means something like 2 defects per 100 cars. Both numbers are quite low when you consider the thousands of parts in a vehicle, and consider where vehicle quality was 20 to 30 years ago.

One of the issues I have with JD Powers is what kind of defects are we talking about. Suppose the car with the 2 issues had one knob falling off the radio and the light bulb in the cargo area going out and the car with the one issue was that the engine falls out when you hit 50 MPH?

If people really knew that THAT'S the kind of differences we're talking about, they probably wouldn't be paying 5 grand more for a car that is improved by such a small amount.

That is so true, for the most part the difference between a very good car and a poor car is very slight, maybe a few extra issues per 100 cars. With the possible exception of a few cars every car out there is highly reliable.

floridabob1

RE: 616
JD Powers is a customer satisfaction survey company. They do no independent testing of the cars. Their reporting is based on customer opinions. There may or not be a scientific rational for the opinions voiced by those surveyed.
CU purchases the cars that they rate. The testing that is performed on these cars is conducted in a uniform, scientific manner. Their tests may not help all buyers because their particular tests and models that they have chosen are not important to all buyers. Their tests factor in financial concerns, so that their highest rated product does not necessarily mean it is the best product.
The results of each companies reports should be used as just one tool employed by the customer to assist in making the ultimate decision.

quietpro

CU purchases the cars that they rate. The testing that is performed on these cars is conducted in a uniform, scientific manner.

That's what they want you to believe but their human imperfection has been displayed numerous times. I have seen them quote options/specs/etc that don't exist on the model they're testing. The earlier example of rating identical vehicles (aside from labeling) being rated differently, etc.

While the high-end "car mags" (MT, C&D, etc) don't do a lot of reliability testing, the information they DO report on is almost always 100% accurate and anything they miss is usually caught in-house or by a reader and corrected in the very next issue.

CU is an early warning for me. If they report a make is having issues, I pay more attention but I don't take CU's word outright. They have proven to be inaccurate at best, biased at worst.

floridabob1

RE: 621
Exactly my point. All of the reports can be flawed and should none should be used exclusively in making the final decision.
In many cases, the worst person to ask is one who has recently purchased the model. They are biased, and in some cases feel foolish for perhaps making a poor decision.

captain2

understanding human nature might just provide an insight on 'satisfaction' indexes. A car buying decision for most of us here (myself included) is a major one given the dollars involved, and one that our egos would discourage any negative result.
As such the JD Powers' of the world mean nothing because the vast majority of those surveyed WANT to be happy with what they just bought especially relative to what they paid for it. So JD Powers can come to me and ask me about my Avalon and I would tell them now that it is quite simply the best car I've ever owned, and later with some 20-20 hindsight (and a few problems accumulated with perhaps another 100k miles or so) I might tell them something completely different - as would the CRs of the world if this becomes the case.

floridabob1

RE: 623
CU and many car magazines do long term reviews of many models. As you say, most owners are satisfied with their purchase at the time of the initial survey. After a period of time and more milage on their cars, they may have a different view.
One needs to have driven the car for at least a couple of months and about 10k miles to decide if it was a good or bad decision.

captain2

One needs to have driven the car for at least a couple of months and about 10k miles to decide if it was a good or bad decision
for my part a lot longer than that - if, for example, my tranny fails at 60001 miles and I get stuck with a $4 grand repair bill - I think my 'everything thing is great' opinion on my Avalon might just change a little - even if I could convince Toyota to cover the bill! For the first 44k, though, it has been a good decision.

floridabob1

RE: 625
For the average driver, waiting until 60k miles might be a little long to form their opinion, although some of the car magazines track cars for extended periods of time.

gamleged

That's where the 10 year / 100,000 mile Hyundai warranty steps in to give some comfort to the nailbiters...

captain2

For the average driver, waiting until 60k miles might be a little long to form their opinion, although some of the car magazines track cars for extended periods of time.
as does that 'nasty' CU (primarily thru those surveys)! I'm not condoning CUs obvious preferences or agendas, and they, just like any of us, can and will make bad judgements or incorrect assessments - but I don't believe there is a more umimpeachable source of car info for most of the car buying public available. What I don't understand is why many buyers will assume that the organization must somehow be biased, if they might happen to rate what they might personally be driving poorly. Or maybe it is that ego thing I mentioned earlier.

quietpro

Or maybe it is that ego thing I mentioned earlier.

It is that incompetence thing when it comes to uncorrected mistakes or failure to adjust their rating systems to give a fair assessment of the products they rate. Unfortunately, they are considered the authority; unfortunately, they don't recognize the responsibility of that "title." :P

snakeweasel

CU purchases the cars that they rate.

Yeah and your magazine subscription doesn't cover the cost of printing and mailing the magazine. Think about that for a minute.

If CR told me the sky is blue I would still check just to make sure.

havalongavalon

Yeah and your magazine subscription doesn't cover the cost of printing and mailing the magazine. Think about that for a minute.

OK. I thought about that and I think you are very wrong. My subscription more than covers those costs (and I pay a reduced multi-year rate).

So I also think you had no grounds to make the comment you made in message #630. CR explicitly does NOT accept advertising or any other form of commercial support.

Do you actually have any evidence that CR does NOT purchase anonymously the cars (or any other items) that they test? If yes, please disclose your evidence. If no, please retract the groundless allegation in your message #630. Thank you.

floridabob1

RE: 631
To my knowledge, CU , as you state, purchases all of the items that they test.
Although any test procedure can be flawed, or the person doing the testing be biased, CU at least tests all of the cars in the same manner.
My problem with CU is that their results largely reflect economic value rather than the "best" product. They usually do not focus on "top of the line" models.

lightfootfl

Don't you think that might be because most of the sales of merchandise, cars or otherwise, is usually not the "top of the line" model? Just my 2cents.
van

snakeweasel

OK. I thought about that and I think you are very wrong.

Actually I am very right. No magazine out there covers the costs of producing and distributing it in the cover price.

Do you actually have any evidence that CR does NOT purchase anonymously the cars (or any other items) that they test?

Oh I know they purchase them, but you have to ask yourself how they get the money.

I will retract nothing.

gamleged

"...you have to ask yourself how they get the money."

How about asking them! This wasn't all that hard to find...
----------

"We thank the 500,000 donors who believe that Consumer Reports is not only a trusted authority on consumer products and services, but is also dedicated
to changing the marketplace.

The $18.1 million in contributions they gave in FY 2006 allow us to address issues that affect the quality of life and safety of consumers across the country and around the world.

Donations given to the Consumer Reports Foundation go
directly to underwriting our product purchasing, testing, and research, and to programs that support our mission, including public education, public safety, and consumer protection.

All our donations adhere to a strict ethical code.We ensure
that no commercial conflicts of interest taint our work and
that the donations are from individuals only, not businesses. All donations over $10,000 are scrutinized by our Ethics Review Committee to ensure that no real or perceived conflict of interest exists."

http://www.consumerreports.org/annualreport/annualreport2006.pdf

"It is better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness"...

captain2

Oh I know they purchase them, but you have to ask yourself how they get the money
snake - you are way way out in left field here (or maybe in the bleachers) - your implication I guess that CU is secretly accepting money (or being given cars) from the Toyotas or Hondas of the world so they can finance what has to be a rather expensive car purchase and testing program? So, therefore, they have a reason to 'support' or 'overrate' those cos. products? And, I guess, they must be getting free plasma TVs from Sony in exchange for ratings? Cynicism is reaching new lows!

Where does it get the money? In this case, subscriptions (subscribing to CR is much more expensive than it is to CD/RT and the magazine itself costs a whole lot less to publish sans the advertising) and a whole lot of donations. BTW, if you have any doubt, look over CUs financial statements (they are available to members) and you would know the answer to your allegations before you make them.

The enthusiast mags., on the other hand, are different, they discount their subscription rates heavily, so they can sell market penetration to advertisers, who in turn allow that magazine to hopefully make money - and, yes, car are 'loaned' to those mags. all the time.

captain2

thank you gamleged - maybe we can turn some lights on!

gamleged

Leeeeet the Sun shine...

Leeeeet the Sun shine in, the Suuuuun shine iiiiin...

[best 60's singing voice icon]...

havalongavalon

gamleged,

Thank you for your exemplary response in #635. You brightened up my morning

havalongavalon

snakeweasel

snake - you are way way out in left field here

Nope but for now thats all I can say.

and a whole lot of donations.

Bingo.

snakeweasel

Yes so did I and this guy worked in their finance department.

gamleged

As a non-profit corporation, Consumers Union (publisher of Consumer reports) is required to publish an annual report (appended above and again):

http://www.consumerreports.org/annualreport/annualreport2006.pdf

... and jump through a goodly number of legal hoops, and failure to accurately identify their sources of funding and expenditures would elicit severe penalties.

There are many companies that CU has ticked-off over the years and CU has been sued for some of their ratings, but to date I don't believe they've lost any of the lawsuits brought against them, a pretty good track record for their honesty and integrity.

Of course, if "this guy in the finance department" has inside knowledge of chicanery, I'm sure he has/will go to the authorities with the appropriate proof and start the ball rolling to bring CU down in tattered ruins... :shades:

snakeweasel

As a non-profit corporation, Consumers Union (publisher of Consumer reports) is required to publish an annual report (appended above and again):

And as a publically traded company so was Enron....Opps.

Please don't get me started on these so called "independent auditors".

motownusa

All these pro domestic whiners and cry babies need to accept the fact that, while the quality of domestic vehicles has improved over the last few years, they still trail Toyota and Honda by a significant margin. And the margin gets bigger as the car gets older. I am a proud subscriber of Consumer Report and yesterday I recevied their March Automobile Issue. As I was scrolling through the CR's good used car bets, the only reliable domestic I found was the Buick Regal; all the other makes where strictly Japanese

snakeweasel

First off I have a forgein car. Secondly the difference between the most reliable car and most any other car is very slight. Finally as for Toyota two words "engine sludge".

cobrazera

Great comment on owner surveys. I have also thought that a lot of this information can be skewed in order to justify their purchases

captain2

so now you want to equate CU with Enron - wow, I guess there are no bounds - you have gone from left field, thru the bleachers and are now maybe tailgating in the parking lot and likely under the influence.

captain2

was really talking about these 'initial' satisfaction surveys (JD Power and the like) - how many people do you really think are going to say anything bad about something brand new (that is not likely to have too many problems anyway) and they just invested 20 or 30k of their hard earned money into? Justification is the right word, especially when some of those bucks are saved up front. Something like the Azera would logically be at the head of the class 'initial satisfaction wise' because that buyer also saved a few thousand over a comparable Avalon. Talk to the same folks a few years down the road, I think those results may be quite different, time will tell. CR, TMK, is the only organization that really attempts to do this.

captain2

the only reliable domestic I found was the Buick Regal

'vintage' drivetrains and designs had better be reliable, otherwise they would have nothing else to offer?

oak7

Does anyone have thoughts about larger wheels for a 03 Impala? I am buying one but heard the 16 inch wheels are too small...

jaymagic

Haven't had my 07 Azera that long, but I traded an 00 Avalon and an 02 Hyundai XG 350L in on it. I had about 100K on the Hyundai and only about 75K on the Avalon. Neither car ever had any more than very minor issues. While the Hyundai did not have the style or power of the Avalon (or the price), there was nothing wrong with its build quality. The biggest warranty item was a burned out headlight at 35K. I actually had more trouble with the Avalon, but ALL very minor.

So, having had a Hyundai and an Avalon, for a few years, my satisfaction remained high enough for me to buy the Azera over the Avalon. If the two cars were exactly the same price, I would probably go for the Avalon due to resale value and dealer network, not because I think the Avalon is better, but because people like you think its true.

captain2

not because I think the Avalon is better, but because people like you think its true.
you misinterpret my post, while the Avalon may have IMO a better drivetrain, superior egronomics, better power and FE - that doesn't necessarily make it a better value. The Azera is THAT close. The Azera, while it has been doing very well to now, is still an unknown in terms of both long term reliability and resale. When I bought my Avalon, the Azera wasn't available - if it had been, I too would have had to do some real thinking about the extra $ - again, the Azera is THAT close - and neither car the 05+ Avalon or the 06+ Azera are even related to your old 00 Avalon or the XG350. They both have improved that much, although I believe that Hyundai has taken a much larger step than Toyota has.
Since I am a certifiable 'car nut' and do try to keep abreast of what's out there, I do have a number of friends that have been known to 'rely' on me for car advice -I recommended they look at the Azera - 2 of them did buy one - and they are still friends and also 'happy campers'. Besides which, what a decrepit old geezer like me thinks, shouldn't make any difference to you anyway?

gamleged

People will complain, and bitterly, about any real or perceived deficiencies in their new car, you have only to refer to the microcosm of this and other forums...

captain2

and yet another part of human nature - something along the lines of: Toyota (or whoever) sold me this real or perceived crappy car and I need to get back at them and/or 'protect' everybody else. People complain because more than anything else they want to be heard. In some ways like that guy that sits in the left lane at 55mph, and won't move over because that is what the speed limit happens to be ..

jaymagic

All good points. As I said elsewhere, I think Azera and Avalon owners ought to be high fiving each other for whichever one they chose. Both are clearly better than the competition. The better dicussion should be between Avalon owners and entry level Lexus owners or between Azera owners and entry level Accura owners. Eliminate the nameplates and look at them objectively and we see what the cost of ego really is.

captain2

well I sure some 500 and Impala owners might have some problem with your contention, and I am sure that somebody that just spent $40k or more for a ES350, IS or GS would as well. Are they 'clearly' better than this competition - maybe to you and me (that's why we bought them) - but remember beauty is always in the eyes of the beholder and on that basis nobody is really ever wrong! Fancy nameplates do have value - the Lexus GS350 is worth every penny of the 50 grand or so they get for them simply because that is also what people are willing to pay for them.

jaymagic

What someone is willing to pay is the true value. I just find it interesting to look at a loaded Avalon Limited version against a ES 350 or my Azera versus an Acura TL. As I said, I think the diference in price is the value of ego. Both the Lexus and the Acura are very nice cars (althought the Acura is a little small inside for my tastes).

captain2

true value, as I'm understanding you, is a subjective consideration - and therefore not defineable. There are an awful lot of folks out there that will pay about 60 grand for a BMW 530 (a great car), which is its 'true value'. Somebody who just bought an Azera (or an Avalon) is not likely to understand that?

jaymagic

I have owned BMW's and Audi's and loved em both. I also know I was paying for the extra 1 or 2 tenths of performance that I would never need and just a bit for the privilege of having a BMW or Audi.

If you have the coin go for it. Sport sedans and lux cars are usually worth it in real terms and in ego gratification. Kind of like a trophy wife, great to have, but sometimes very high maintenance. All can manage a trip to the grocery store.

barnstormer64

need to accept the fact that, while the quality of domestic vehicles has improved over the last few years, they still trail Toyota and Honda by a significant margin

I don't see that at all. I guess I'm blind. Either that, or foreign-car buyers are smoking hallucinogenic substances. :P

barnstormer64

If you have the coin go for it

OR, spend it on something more enjoyable than a mode of transportation.

pigmy

I found the Azera while researching the latest on Avalon in CU. I am trading a 94 Camry with 123K miles that still has a sound drive train and good paint but a lot of little things like speaker covers falling off, the power antenna has to be pulled up and a couple of dents. My wife sat in a top of the line Avalon when we took our 2001 Highlander for 90K maintenance and loved it. She dearly loves her Highlander too. However, the only complaint she could find when we test drove the Azera was it was not as plush as the Avalon. We decided $9K was too much for plush for an Avalon with the same features as the Azera. I have been reading these forums for several days while waiting for my retirement plan to cough up my down payment money and have not found a reason not to buy the Azera. If there is a serious negative in here please point it out to me. On the basis that people with problems will be the ones to post comments just one negative is worth more than 10 "this is a great car" comments. I am sure for less than $1000 I can find a real nice seat cushion for the wife and the Hyundai warranty is very reassuring.

jaymagic

Unless you require in dash navigation or HID lights, there are NO serious negatives to an Azera (and I'm not sure there are any negatives). The Avalon will get slightly better MPG, maybe 2 MPG based on mine and my previous Avalon.

About 4,000 mi. now and I have no "clunks", rattles or anything else. I am still VERY happy every time I get in my Azera. The more I drive it, the happier I am with the decision I made. The only thing I wish it had was satellite radio (as the ones now being built in Korea and getting shipped over have), but I can add it, if I get desperate.

dborth

Re # 662: The only negative I would offer is beware of the stupidity of the sales and service departments. These guys can only relate to Sonata grade and below.

If you pull the trigger on the Azera do your homework regarding factory incentives (they change monthly) Be sure on the front side you get a written understanding that all computer settings will be included, preferrably before you drive off and head home. Meaning...limp home, door lock options, etc. Otherwise, they will nick you for $45 minimum on the back side. Take a tire pressure gauge with you too.

It's a great car, you'll love it.