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What is the GREENEST car out there?



  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    They avoided emission data in their 4000 data points because they wanted to slight hybrids. That is obvious now after reading the report and seeing where they left out emissions on purpose.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I disagree. As stated above, it falls outside of the EPA's domain.

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    As I showed in Post #60, emissions and GHG *DO INDEED* get measured and considered by the EPA. Read it !!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    OK, touche. You got me. :D

    But how do we measure that in terms of energy consumption, which was the goal of the study?

    Besides, by those same standards Toyota has among the very worst engines in their trucks like the Sequoia, LX470, GX470, and Tundra. I know they are replacing that engine, but the 4.7l scored a 2 on that scale of 1 to 10, IIRC.

    And Toyota sells a bunch more of those, yet the tiny number of hybrids they sell get them all the publicity.

    Brilliant PR, but also very misleading to tote the company as being green.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Sorry, I was wrong again.

    The LX470 does not get a 2, it gets a 1! ONE out of 10!

    Shame on Toyota....

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    If you ARE a believer of the CNW study, then Toyota has 4 of the Top Ten cars. No other company has that many.

    Toyota ALSO has more hybrids than anyone else.

    Regardless of the "dirty side of Toyota", they do more on the "clean side" than anyone else does.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They're a very large company, so they do more of both.

    But look at the volume of sales - the hybrids represent a much smaller peice of the pie than Tundras do.

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Of course Tundra sells more than Prius. But is that Toyota's fault in the least?

    No, it's not.

    People buy what they want to buy. The fact that more people want to buy Tundras than Priuses is not Toyota's fault.

    Look at F150 pickups - more people in America want them than any other Ford vehicle, and that is not Ford's fault either.

    As a car company, all you can do is PROVIDE clean cars - you cannot FORCE people to buy them. Toyota PROVIDES more clean cars than anyone else.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    Of course Tundra sells more than Prius. But is that Toyota's fault in the least?

    Yes it is their fault. You can go to any Toyota store and have your choice of Tundra PU. Color & Options. You cannot even find a Prius for sale on most Toyota lots. I believe it is planned that way. They only want to sell as many hybrids as they absolutely have to and still maintain that faux green facade. You can sugar coat Toyota all day and they will still smell like a rat.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    In many cases the jargon was overly technical and aimed at scientists and engineers. In other cases, the analysis was incomplete not taking into account the energy cost of simply conceiving of a new automotive idea or “off loading” manufacturing energy requirements to suppliers. In the latter case, for example, by requiring parts suppliers to perform sub-assemblies and “modules” that go into the production of a vehicle, it removes that energy usage from the assembly plant to the supplier production line. In some cases, Toyota being one, it allows the manufacturer to claim a significant reduction in plant energy usage and an improvement in efficiency while, in reality, the energy costs have simply been moved from one site to another.

    Notice how evern at the outset, they have a bias against Toyota.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Gary, come on now..... Look at the MARKET FORCES involved.

    There are simply MORE BUYERS who want a Tundra. It has nothing to do with limited supply of the Prius. If there were 250,000 buyers a year wanting Priuses, Toyota could supply all those cars, no problem.

    Priuses FOR A WHILE were rare and scarce, but right now they are not. Maybe in Cali they are still rare, but that's because all the lefties want one to show how Green they are.

    Every Toyota dealer in Phoenix has two or three Priuses on the lot every time I drive by.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    There are simply MORE BUYERS who want a Tundra.

    I think if you look at the record. Prius and Tundra both sold about the same amount last year. Wanna bet which was easier to find? You can go to the Prius thread and there are still people on wait lists for the Prius. It is a Contrived shortage nothing less. There is no reason for there not to be as many Prius available as any other car. I was at two dealers in the last month to look at the FJ Cruiser. San Diego Toyota had neither FJC or Prius, they had a row of Tundras a block long. El Cajon Toyota had one FJC and one Prius and a whole back lot filled with PU trucks. The simple truth is they do not want to lose one single opportunity to sell a PU truck and they could care less if you buy the Prius. I think it is still a loss leader. Of course we have hashed that out before. If it is not true why aren't the Prius readily available after 7 years on the market. Prius sales are off by about 25% from last year this time. Yet people cannot get them without a wait on both coasts. Where are the promised hybrids of every color. They are the color green alright. Green back dollars. They have done nothing but raise the price. Where is your dream of every one owning a hybrid? I can tell you it is not Toyota's dream. It is more like their nightmare. I have to believe you have plenty of hybrids in AZ. I think two posters went to Phoenix to buy the Camry Hybrid that is now the car they love to dole out to eager buyers.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    From this page:

    Even with Prius shortage, Toyota gains vs. GM, Ford
    By Frank Michael Russell
    Mercury News Assistant Business Editor

    Toyota continued to gain ground against U.S. automakers GM and Ford last month, even though it couldn't make enough of its popular Prius hybrids to keep up with demand.

    The Japanese automaker said its sales were up 7 percent in March compared with a year earlier, driven by a 15 percent jump in truck and SUV sales. But Prius sales were down 22 percent as production problems slowed down Toyota's effort to supply the high-mileage gas-electric vehicles to its U.S. dealers.

    Ford, meanwhile, said its sales were down 5 percent, mostly because of shrinking interest in its SUV lineup. Car sales were flat, but truck and SUV sales dropped 7 percent. Ford Explorer sales were down 25 percent.

    Another one:

    Prius Shortage Won't Improve `Until Later This Year'

    Toyota PriusIf you're in the market for a new Toyota Prius, you're probably in for a long wait. According to a report today from Bloomberg News, sales of the gas-electric hybrid were down in April, but that was because of a production shortage, not a decline in the vehicle's popularity.

    So, it appears that the Prius shortage is related to "production problems" and not "We are Contriving to Make Them Scarce To Keep Popularity Up" problems.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    but that was because of a production shortage, not a decline in the vehicle's popularity.

    That gives credibility to my argument. Prius production by Toyota is being stone walled. Toyota does not want to sell anymore hybrids than they need to keep the green glow. If you could go into any Toyota store and have the same selection of Prius that you do Camry or Corolla I would say they are wanting to sell the Prius.

    IIRC you made some statements a couple years ago that Toyota would get production up to demand by early 2005. It is now the middle of 2006 and they are still dragging their feet. No problem getting a big ramp up of RAV4 V6 gas guzzlers. They are up 53% over last year. Amazing how Toyota can build vehicles when they want to.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204 - 1/BACK01

    Hybrid harbinger
    By Jon Newberry
    Post staff reporter

    Zoom MELVIN GRIER/The Post
    Joseph Toyota's sales and leasing consultant Jim Steinau talks with Marion and Bill Cooley before they take off to test drive a 2006 Prius.

    Just as Toyota is starting to sell hybrid versions of its popular Camry sedan, U.S. sales trends of Toyota's groundbreaking Prius hybrid are slowing for the first time since consumer demand surged more than two years ago.

    The timing isn't mere coincidence, nor is the cause a shortage of willing buyers for Toyota Motor Co.'s gasoline-and-electric-powered Prius, according to company officials. Rather, the problem is that there are even fewer Priuses available than there were last year, when waiting lists often stretched to six months.

    "Production numbers are a little lower this year at the moment. We're basically selling all we can get," said Sam Butto, a Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. spokesman in Torrance, Calif. "It isn't from a lack of interest from the public. That's for sure."

    The car that led a revolution away from gas-guzzlers was a novelty when it was introduced, its image instantly polished by movie stars commuting around Hollywood in theirs. Today, you're more likely than not to pass a Prius on your Interstate 75 commute. They've gone mainstream as gas prices have gone up and hybrid technology has proven itself. Given the public's embrace, automakers are responding by building more hybrids.

    Ironically, production capacity for Priuses in Japan is constrained because Toyota recently began making Camry hybrids - which are just hitting West Coast showrooms - on the same assembly line. That should change later this year when Toyota's manufacturing plant in Georgetown, Ky., starts producing a hybrid version of the Camry. It will be the first Toyota hybrid made in North America. Until now, all the Toyota hybrids sold here have been imported from Japan.

    When Georgetown begins producing hybrid Camrys later this year, it will initially source its hybrid components - including specialized electric motors, generators, transmissions, and batteries - from Japan. But Butto said the recent shortage of Priuses isn't tied to a scarcity of hybrid components. "I don't think that is the problem. It's basically a shortage of vehicles," he said.

    Victor Vanov, a spokesman for Toyota's North American manufacturing headquarters in Erlanger, Ky., said start-up of Camry production in Georgetown should help alleviate the Prius shortage.

    "The ultimate goal is that when Camrys are being produced in Georgetown, that will free up capacity for more Priuses in Japan," he said.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    Have you asked yourself the simple question? If they can start building Camry Hybrids here why not Prius? They are building the Prius in Japan sharing the same facility that they build Camry's in. It's not like this is a sudden surge in demand for the Prius. Last year it was not enough room in the Camry plant. We are building a Prius factory that can make a million cars yada yada. Then a fire slows down production. Now the Camry Hybrid takes precedence over the Prius. You need to face the facts. The Prius is a "Loss Leader" and they are not going to EVER try and keep up with demand. I would bet they have plans to end the Prius within 3 years. Buy a Camry Hybrid starting at $27k forget that Prius.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    They are not killing the Prius. They have announced a goal of 94 MPG from the next gen Prius, there was a news story a few months back.

    ANYWAY, they have a 2007 model year goal of 170,000 Priuses sold in the USA - I just got an e-mail from a Fleet VP whose e-mail I acquired at one of the Toyota websites.

    That's far from killing it.....

    As far as the Camrys being built here - It's because the Camry is already 80% "American built" and they already have the new Kentucky plant readied for Camry production.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    If they can build the Prius in the Camry factory in Japan, why not the Camry factory in KY?

    As far as that 94 MPG hybrid they showed off in the UK. It was just trying to get some interest in the EU. Hybrids are all but dead outside the US and Japan. Funny those are the two countries with little diesel exposure. I think they can make the Camry as cheap as the Prius and get $3k-$5k more for them. That is the reason for the cuts in production. Right now the Prius is off from last year by 12% with people waiting for them. That would not happen with any other vehicle after 3 years on the market.

    I can see you are still blind to Toyota and their evil ways. At least Ford & GM do their deception right out in the open with the "Stick a Corn Cob up your Tail Pipe" E85 scam. You got to love the fact that the EPA gives GM a 33 MPG rating on a vehicle that gets 11 MPG on E85. It ought to help the big two sell lots of FF trucks and SUVs. Kind of caught Toyota off guard on that one.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice: If they can build the Prius in the Camry factory in Japan, why not the Camry factory in KY?

    They are not doing that. They are building the HYBRID CAMRY in the PRIUS factory in Japan. Then they are going to build the CAMRY HYBRID in regular Camry plant in Kentucky.

    I think a 270,000 sales goal in the USA for the 2007 Prius speaks volumes - if they are planning that many, that means they have their production issues settled.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    I think a 270,000 sales goal in the USA for the 2007 Prius

    I saw large projections by Toyota back in 2004 for 2005. They squeaked out a bit over 100k last year. Then they had big numbers for 2006 and if the first 5 months are any indication of total yearly sales they will be lucky to provide 90k Prius this year. It is just plain fishy. And if you remember as I do. Toyota produced the Prius II in the Camry factory to start with. You are saying they cannot build a Prius in a Camry factory in KY? With people waiting for the Prius they could not expand operations here or Japan to meet that demand. I am not buying it for a second. It is business as usual for Toyota. Hold the carrot hybrid, while you push the gas guzzlers to the max.

    Don't get me wrong it is the capitalist way. Sell what makes you the big bucks. I just want the green image exposed for what it is. The only thing green about Toyota are the US greenbacks being stashed in a Tokyo bank.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    As a car company, all you can do is PROVIDE clean cars - you cannot FORCE people to buy them. Toyota PROVIDES more clean cars than anyone else

    Yes, same way they PROVIDE more dirty trucks like the many models with the old 4.7l.

    New Toyota Motto: we provide the most options rated 2 or lower out of 10.

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204 710feat.html

    Least Green Machines
    Dan Lienert, 07.10.06, 12:30 AM ET

    Pickups and SUVs dominate our first-ever ranking of the market's least environmentally friendly vehicles.

    Bill Ford, chairman and chief executive of Ford Motor, frequently touts the company's environmental friendliness. Ford was the first American car company to offer a gas/electric hybrid vehicle that could run on electricity alone (the Escape Hybrid SUV), and 10.4 acres of plants grow on the roof of the automaker's Dearborn Truck Plant.

    But our first-ever ranking of the least environmentally friendly new cars isn't just dominated by pickups and SUVs; five of the seven cars on our list are made by Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ). And though domestic manufacturers are rolling out low-emission gas/electric hybrids, such as General Motors' (nyse: GM - news - people ) Saturn Vue Green Line SUV, all seven of the market's least green cars, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's most current data, are American--strong evidence that U.S. automakers are not as serious about clean vehicles as their foreign counterparts are.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Bill Ford recently backed out of his promise to make all those hybrids he hyped up a few years back, so this is no surprise.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    Bill Ford recently backed out of his promise to make all those hybrids

    He found he could get all the CAFE brownie points by making his big trucks and SUVs flex fuel. GM & Ford could just dump the small cars and concentrate on the big money vehicles by making them all FFVs. No penalties and more profit. They cannot be making any money with the Cobalt and Focus.
  • alp8alp8 Posts: 656
    any new opinions on this?
  • LOL talk about quoting out of context. The total quote" JD Power also reckons VW is the most environmentally friendly manufacturer in the USA, because it is the leading supplier of diesel cars over there. "

    Diesel environmentally friendly is an oxymoron.


  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They're looking at it from a european angle, so naturally their bias is very pro-diesel.

    One of the euro mags held a diesel vs. hybrid comparison test and naturally they took a highway road trip to measure fuel economy. The diesel won (duh!). Such vacations represent, what, about 10-15 days out of the year when we're on vacation?

    Do the same thing on a routine commute, where most people are in the a city or at least in stop-n-go traffic. The hybrid would win easily, and that's where you tend to be about the 200+ days per year that you work.

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    VW beat Honda by a slim margin of 2 points on a 1,000 point scale.

    And Honda has SIX cars in the Top 30.
    Toyota has FIVE cars in the Top 30.
    VW has only their THREE dirty diesels.

    I have e-mailed JD Power about this study to try and get their reasoning as to how they could come to such an unreasonable conclusion.

    VW cannot even SELL 2007 models of their TDI cars in the 5 clean-air states because they are so dirty.

    The "world's cleanest diesel car" cannot be sold in the USA clean air states either.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yep, to get one in California it has to be used and beyond a certain number of miles, because it's not clean enough to meet CARB standards.

    Even Mercedes' new BlueTec is not clean enough - they will only sell it in 45 states, and that is with urea-injection technology. :sick:

This discussion has been closed.