GE is not the only multi-billion corporation. Enron was one of them too; in fact, little over a year before its collapse, Enron was the 7th largest corporation in America. The pension holders of that company are obviously screwed, so were those of WorldCom, and all those whose good old staid phone companies that had been purchased by WorldCom. Pension is actually a gamble with much worse co-variance (the extremes of good vs. bad in a statistic distribution) than a well diversified 401k plan.
If the management lied to you about the promises of 401k, I would not trust them on running my pension either :-) 401k is something that I'm in control of and can roll over to a different company if I wish; pension plan is literally stuck with those liars :-)
"Retiring like millionares" or "living like millionares" is something of a moving goal post. Having a million dollars does not mean much without knowing what the cost of living price levels are. Back when we were born (I'm in my 30's), $10-30k probably could buy the biggest houses in our respective neighborhoods . . . today we can't even buy a parking spot with that money. New cars were $800, not $40k.
The concept of "millionare" is really about living standard: the ability to afford goods and services that one wants, hopefully not as necessity but more or less on a whim (million-peso-nare, million-lira-nare and million-yen-nare just don't cut it because the currency units can't buy much). Well then, someone has to do the work of providing the goods and services, since presumably millionares doing each other's gardening and cleaning is not in the dreams of being millionares :-) By the looks of it, we have reached the political limit on how much goods and services we can get from across the border by importing goods and workers. . . there is a tough row ahead, with the baby boomers retiring and people of our generation being the ones who have to provide for them (on a societal scale even if not on family basis).
GM’s Future Vital Saturday, May 27, 2006 Chairman of General Motors Corp. By Rick Wagoner Special to the Los Angeles Times
Advertisement
This is a critically important time for the U.S. auto industry -- and a highly challenging one as well. Growing global competition, soaring healthcare costs and the persistent misperception that American cars aren’t as good as Japanese cars compel Detroit to think hard about its future.
What happens at General Motors is obviously important to our employees, retirees, dealers, customers and suppliers. Wall Street cares too because of the financial implications for our stockholders and bondholders. But should the rest of America care much about what happens to GM?
The answer is, yes, Americans should care -- and care a great deal.
GM’s future is vitally important to the United States. The numbers speak for themselves: GM has nearly 329,000 employees worldwide, 138,000 of them in the United States; 450,000 retirees; 1.1 million Americans receiving GM health-plan benefits; 7,300 dealers in virtually every city and town in the United States, employing nearly 300,000 workers, and 1,800 supplier companies from which we buy more than $40 billion worth of goods and services each year. In terms of customers, the numbers are even more dramatic. There are about 73 million GM cars on American roads today.
As powerful as these numbers are, they don’t come close to telling the full story of GM’s relevance to the American public. Two of the most challenging issues facing the United States today are globalization and rapidly escalating healthcare and retirement costs. At GM, we know these issues as well as any company, and we are working diligently to address them in a manner that is both financially prudent and socially responsible. In many respects, GM is a window on the nation’s near-term future. How do we compete with low-cost producers globally? Can we hold our own in the growing markets of China, India and elsewhere? How do we meet our pension obligations made over the last several decades? And can we make vehicles as good as the ones made by our Asian, European and other competitors?
Last year was a tough one for all of us at GM, with a $10.6 billion loss. Over the last several months, though, we have been aggressively implementing a turnaround plan that increases our investment in new cars and trucks, revitalizes our sales and marketing strategy, addresses our healthcare burden and significantly improves our cost competitiveness. We’ve also announced plans to idle 12 plants and reduce 30,000 manufacturing jobs by 2008.
GM already is a dramatically more competitive company globally than most Americans realize. Last year we were the world’s largest automobile manufacturer for the 75th consecutive year, with sales of nearly 9.2 million vehicles worldwide -- more than any other competitor, foreign or domestic. And for the first time in our history, we sold more cars and trucks outside the United States than within it. In China, the fastest-growing vehicle market in the world, GM displaced Volkswagen as the top-selling automaker.
We know we’ve got a lot more to do. The reality of a global economy is that the race is never won; it never ends. Continuous innovation, excellent quality and financial discipline are the only guarantees of future success.
With respect to the extraordinary healthcare obligations that GM and many other American corporations shoulder, the road ahead is challenging. GM’s healthcare bill in 2005 was a staggering $5.3 billion, by far the highest of any American business. It’s a cost that puts us at an unsustainable disadvantage to most of our foreign-based competitors, whose governments cover many of these costs.
The current U.S. healthcare system creates enormous tensions between employers, employees, insurance companies and healthcare providers. Obviously government has a role to play in finding solutions, but we can’t and won’t wait for that to happen. Instead, we have been working cooperatively with our unions to achieve reductions in our healthcare obligations. Last fall we negotiated a $15 billion reduction in GM’s long-term healthcare liabilities, while working with the healthcare industry to find ways to make the system more efficient.
We also have reduced the salaries of our senior executives, including me, by up to 50 percent; cut the GM dividend to shareholders in half, and scaled back pension benefits for salaried employees. We believe in shared sacrifice and in solving our own problems. We’re not looking for or asking for a taxpayer bailout.
Perhaps the most frustrating challenge facing all of us at GM is changing the misperception that our cars and trucks don’t measure up to some foreign makes. The fact is, every major automaker makes good vehicles today. On a model-by-model comparison, different companies will be slightly ahead in different segments, but overall, GM cars and trucks rank among the best in terms of quality and value for the dollar.
This is important for consumers to understand. We all benefit from maximum choice in the marketplace. If consumers bypass GM dealers because of the misperception that our cars are not competitive, they lose just as certainly as we do. For many reasons, people should be interested in the turnaround at GM. We’ve been helping Americans pursue their love affair with the car for nearly a century. Today’s challenges are difficult, but we will overcome them.
Across the nation, there are kids not yet old enough to drive who are thumbing through car magazines, dreaming of the day they can get behind the wheel of a Chevy Corvette or Pontiac Solstice. We plan to be there for them, as we were for their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents.
that's nice, but what about a decent small car about 10-20 years ago? The football has been dropped and, unlike the Pittsburgh Steelers, there's no plethera of bought-off referees and a crooked NFL front office to save you, GM.
Get well, GM. Maybe try a blood expander instead of straight blood for your needed transfusion, though, eh?
Are you still crying about that game? USC or the Texas Longhorns could have beat the Seahawks that day. They stunk. Heck the GM parking lot team could have whipped that Seattle team... :P
the NFL's front office, the referees and lots of American Greenbacks that day. Football-wise, the Steelers could have beaten the University of Manure very handily that day. The Seahawk juggernaut, no.
I could see it in the looks on the faces of the ref's that they were being bought off. Jackson swept over the pylon at the end of the first half and the play should have been called a TD, but time just expired and the teams wernt into the locker room like nothing happened. I could list about 50 flags, nonflags or crappy calls to prove my point that money spoke more to those referees that day than honesty and good football.
I have a lot of company that feels the same way. I have read countless articles on that travesty of justice they named the Super Bowl on February 5, 2006. Anybody with a knowledge of the game knows the game was thrown.
As for poor GM and the UAW, it's simply too little, too late. Start looking for other work, dudes and dudettes.
Just a slight diversion to allow for venting of frustration.
I'm waiting for the Union to do something stupid like strike against Delphi. That will be the last hoorah for a lot of union workers. UAW members will be crossing the lines within a week and the fight will be over. Folks from the local Walmart would love to get $20 an hour as non-union replacements. May take them a couple months to get back up to speed on the factories they want to keep open.
May 27, 2006, 8:13PM BREAK THE HABIT Labor's lesson: 'More' is less Unions must learn they're asking for far too much
By GEORGE S. MCGOVERN
I have never wavered in my support for policies that relieve poverty and improve the standard of living of American workers.
As a lifelong liberal, I supported Medicare and Medicaid, civil rights, Social Security and workplace safety requirements. Today, I strongly support universal health care.
I have always been a supporter of the labor movement. Unions have a proud legacy of improving the lives of millions of workers over the last century. But lately I have seen developments that have me worried. I am reminded of legendary union leader John L. Lewis, who was asked what his miners were after. His answer? "More."
It was a funny answer, and perhaps honest, too. But these days, it's not a very effective strategy, and we are seeing some unfortunate and unintended consequences of Lewis' "more" philosophy.
Delphi Corp., the biggest auto parts supplier in the country and the employer of 34,000 hourly workers, is bankrupt. One big reason is that the company's unionized workers earn $64 an hour in wages and benefits — more than twice what some of its competitors pay.
General Motors and Ford — the companies that have epitomized high-paying unionized jobs over the last several decades — will lay off 30,000 workers each. The United Auto Workers, General Motors and Delphi recently announced an agreement to offer voluntary buyouts to the UAW-represented employees at the companies.
Airlines have come under similar pressure. The bankruptcy stories associated with legacy carriers are driven in large part by the compensation packages and work rules that unions have won for their members, which are too expensive compared to more recent entrants such as Southwest.
"More" has, unfortunately, become "too much" in a global and far more competitive economy.
Many of my friends will consider this view heretical. But it is based on reality. Some progressive union leaders, facing this economic reality, have come to the same conclusion. Others are holding fast. Their behavior is a function of internal politics — and sheer habit. Not unlike members of Congress, union leaders are in the business of asking for more. That's what their mentors and predecessors and heroes did. It's very difficult to turn around and say that "more" is not always possible.
It can be galling to hear companies argue that they have to cut wages and benefits for hourly workers — even as they reward top executives with millions of dollars in stock options. The chief executive of Wal-Mart earns $27 million a year, while the company's average worker takes home about $10 an hour. But let's assume that the chief executive got 27 cents instead of $27 million, and that Wal-Mart distributed the savings to its hourly workers. They would each receive a bonus of less than $20. It's not executive pay that has created this new world.
I understand the attraction of asking business — the perceived "deep pockets" — to shoulder more of the responsibility for social welfare. But there are plenty of businesses that don't have deep pockets. Many large corporations operate with razor-thin profit margins as competitors, both foreign and domestic, attract consumers by offering lower prices.
The current frenzy over Wal-Mart is instructive. Its size is unprecedented. Yet for all its billions in profit, it still amounts to less than four cents on the dollar. Raise the cost of employing people, and the company will eliminate jobs. Its business model only works on low prices, which require low labor costs. Whether that is fair or not is a debate for another time. It is instructive, however, that consumers continue to enjoy these low prices and that thousands of applicants continue to apply for those jobs.
Maryland recently passed a law aimed at requiring Wal-Mart to spend more on health insurance. This is an extremely flawed path to health care reform. We need universal coverage, not piecemeal legislation designed to punish companies because they operate differently than their competitors.
The fact is, demanding more from business based on sales or the number of employees is not always the best way to achieve a just result. Although I believe we should allow businesses to pay employees based on their skill level, I also believe we should supplement the wages of those who earn the least.
Universal health care provided by the federal government is one way to supplement income. It is also a way of relieving hard-pressed businesses of one of their highest cost burdens. It is the rising cost of health care that is said to be a major cause of the layoffs at GM and Ford.
Another way to benefit workers financially is the earned income tax credit. This is a program that both unions and business can endorse. It also has the virtue of being supported by a progressive tax system, in which the rich are asked to pay more.
Liberals must never abandon their core principles of justice and equality. But union leaders who still see American businesses as the enemy must update that vision.
McGovern, a former U.S. senator from South Dakota, was the Democratic nominee for president in 1972. This article originally appeared in the Los Angeles Times.
Good article. I usually do not agree with Mr. McGovern. He has made some very astute observations in this piece.
I will never forget one negotiation with our little company. The Boss gave us his package offer prior to us presenting what we wanted. We looked it over with the Teamster Business agent and Chief Negotiator. The Negotiator said no way can I accept this wage package. We did not understand because it was more than we were going to ask for. He said if I take this offer I will be in deep trouble with the AT&T bargaining unit. They always look at what you guys get and expect as much or more. It was one of the fastest contract settlements I was part of. The Boss was shocked when we told him what we wanted and signed that afternoon. So as Mr. McGovern pointed out MORE is not always good for the workers or the company.
I'm waiting for the Union to do something stupid like strike against Delphi.
Why would that be stupid ? Explain what benefit it would be from the employee's point of view ???? Seriously name me one benefit to the employee :mad: ? Delphi is shutting 21 out 29 plants down, so it's not like the company is going to keep jobs here. As far as I'm concerned Delphi can go under.
The UAW lawyers have found $13.7 Billion in the cash coffers in banks in Asia. The UAW lawyers also found another $11 point something Billion over in Europe. It's all a Big Fat Lie by the company that wants to bust the union. :mad:
"Delphi is shutting 21 out 29 plants down, so it's not like the company is going to keep jobs here. As far as I'm concerned Delphi can go under."
I'm confused about something. I thought that part of the UAW contracts that Delphi was trying to get thrown out in Court stated that Delphi couldn't close any plants. But now you're saying that they ARE shutting down 21 of 29 plants.
Are you saying that they are already shutting down plants even though the UAW contracts are still in effect, or that IF the contracts are thrown out, that Delphi PLANS to shut down 21 plants?
Is it possible that the plants that Delphi wishes to close are old and outdated? That they have no market (or reduced market) for the parts those plants produced?
Do all 29 plants employ the same number of folks/produce the same value of parts? Are they simply closing the smallest, less efficient plants? Are they perhaps CONSOLIDATING any plants?
So, you'd be willing to sink the WHOLE company (all 29 plants - including presumably the most efficient/profitable for Delphi), throwing EVERYBODY out of work, rather than have a healthy company with 8 plants going strong?
Rocky, where did you hear about the hidden billions? That is a lot of money. I cannot see Delphi having that kind of cash. GM has been subsidizing Delphi since the split to keep them in business until they could make money on their own.
Once the UAW employees walk out, Delphi can hire anyone they want to work in that plant. As long as they stay on the job there is a contract in effect that protects the employees. This is not 1998 when GM was selling SUVs & PU trucks faster than they could build them. You seem to think it would be tough to train new employees on new modern machines. I disagree with you. No one is indispensable, That includes all the workers at Delphi, Union and non-union.
..with gagrice. I've taught at tech schools and seen them train actual ex Walmart and K-mart employees to run high tech machines for the likes of Seimens, Bosch, Caterpillar and PBR, all of which have plants in SC. There were plenty of people who showed up for the free training, even though there were jobs for maybe 10% of them.
Delphi will have no problem replacing their workers.
I'm confused about something. I thought that part of the UAW contracts that Delphi was trying to get thrown out in Court stated that Delphi couldn't close any plants. But now you're saying that they ARE shutting down 21 of 29 plants.
Within 3 years Delphi, will consolidate, off-shore, close, sell off certain divisions, 21 out of 29 North American divisions.
Are you saying that they are already shutting down plants even though the UAW contracts are still in effect, or that IF the contracts are thrown out, that Delphi PLANS to shut down 21 plants?
My dads Coopersville plant is a goner. It made $143 million last yr. and will be consolidated to Rochester, New York. Delphi also is going away from the "techno" Multec 2 fuel Injector to making Multec 3. The Multec 2 process is so hard that the Chinese, and Germans couldn't built them without producing large quanity's of scrap. The Multec 3 is simpler, not as sophisticated and will eventually be made in China and the Rochester plant will close someday. :mad:
Is it possible that the plants that Delphi wishes to close are old and outdated?
Yes some are old and outdated, but some of the plants they are keeping older such as the Wyoming Mi. Delphi plant was built during WW2. The Coopersville plant was built in the mid 80's and my pops transferred to Coopersville, during that time.
That they have no market (or reduced market) for the parts those plants produced?
It's not so much the market has been reduced, but why pay a American wage, when you can pay a Chinamen $0.60 an hour ?
Delphi also claims some of the products aren't competitive and yes that is true to some degree. OTOH other company's want those contracts and are going to China, India, to built those parts to make even bigger profit margins.
Do all 29 plants employ the same number of folks/produce the same value of parts? Are they simply closing the smallest, less efficient plants? Are they perhaps CONSOLIDATING any plants?
Your average Delphi plant is using 1/3 of the people they had in the 80's because of huge improvements in techniques and robotics, thus creating a need for less people. They also build more parts today with a 1/3 of the people, then they did in the 80's. The wyoming plant as ineficient as it was by todays standards made $40 million after paying everybody. Today in make over $100 million and for some reason it's not on the list of closings.
So, you'd be willing to sink the WHOLE company (all 29 plants - including presumably the most efficient/profitable for Delphi), throwing EVERYBODY out of work, rather than have a healthy company with 8 plants going strong?
Yes I would if I was a employee. They built the company and when it goes corrupt, by god they have the right to atleast damage it. I think it comes down to morales, buisness ethics. When isn't $13.7 Billion in the banks in Asia, and over $11 billion in Europe banks enough ? The UAW lawyers dug deep and found the money trail. Delphi management has been crying foul, and want to bust the UAW membership and export all the jobs eventually to China. This is why we as a country will someday collaspse in my opinion. We are losing good jobs where company's make a decent profit, but still want more. I put dephi management in the same boat as Delay, and they deserve to rot in a prision cell. They can't have any faith, because if I did something like this to good people that are just trying to make a living I couldn't sleep at night and look myself in the mirror in the morning. I guess that's where they and people like myself are so different. I have a conscious.
The pensions are backed by General Motors, for the pre 99'folks. Delphi has very few obligations and 6 years if you were hired after 99' is pocket change if it's frozen which Delphi has planned to do. The pension fund is underfunded and Delphi is fighting to send it all to the Pension Guarantee Corp. So really 62' what's really in it for the workers. Middle and lower management are biting there nails pal. :sick:
Rocky, where did you hear about the hidden billions? That is a lot of money. I cannot see Delphi having that kind of cash. GM has been subsidizing Delphi since the split to keep them in business until they could make money on their own.
My dad told me the UAW lawyers followed the money like a bloodhounds and found in the European and Asian banks over $25 BILLION dollars is liquid cash. The UAW lawyers have said how can you guys file bankruptcy hiding all that money and claim losses here in the states. I've stated the plant profits at 2 Michigan plants which equl over $250 million in profits where my family works in previous posts.
Rock, do you have an article stating the billions? I just cannot believe they could possibly have that kind of cash anywhere. I knowthe UAW lawyers say they have it but Ihave been following this kinda closely since many of my relatives work there. I have seen no mention of the billions. Seems like this would be front page news here in detroit.
Once the UAW employees walk out, Delphi can hire anyone they want to work in that plant. As long as they stay on the job there is a contract in effect that protects the employees. This is not 1998 when GM was selling SUVs & PU trucks faster than they could build them. You seem to think it would be tough to train new employees on new modern machines. I disagree with you. No one is indispensable, That includes all the workers at Delphi, Union and non-union.
That's awful funny you think those machines are so easy to operate. Sure a few are easy to do, but alot take training. I can guarantee you this that the workers will rig those machines to make sure they won't work right. Delphi management was fighting the UAW to not let my father leave before December of this year. Dad said I want to be gone by July, and I will train my replacement right now and hopefully if he pays attention to how I do my job he will be ready by the time I leave. Dad, told me he doesn't think he will be ready because it's so hard and it would normally take 3 months to learn the job. You guys don't get it. Who's going to fix the machines when they break down ?????? Some Walley World Greeter is going to jump right in and start making Fuel Injectors making $14 an hour. Ya'll that believe that are living in a fantasy world and never been in a high-tech factory before obviously. Who's going to operate the Electron Microscope ? The guy in charge of assembling Big Macs ? :surprise:
Whatever, if they go on strike you will see. GM, has warehouses full of parts anyways. I do see Rick Wagoner ousting Steve Miller before it's over. He already told him to sit down and shut up.
Rock, do you have an article stating the billions? I just cannot believe they could possibly have that kind of cash anywhere. I knowthe UAW lawyers say they have it but Ihave been following this kinda closely since many of my relatives work there. I have seen no mention of the billions. Seems like this would be front page news here in detroit.
I haven't seen any articles. Maybe it hasn't been released yet. You did see that the company wanted to bring back the union to the bargaining table Dad got the info from the UAW local president, which came from a letter from UAW HQ. Maybe we will see a article released if negotiations go down hill. I dunno. Maybe Delphi, somehow is keeping the Union from bringing this public and agreed to try to work out a deal to keep the union quiet ? I'll ask dad if he has a way of getting a copy this weekend.
"...by god they have the right to atleast damage it. I think it comes down to morales, buisness ethics."
No, they DON'T have the "right" to damage it. You are confusing 'ability' with 'right'.
If you hired a guy to mow your lawn and he mowed your lawn every week for 5 years, and then you found a kid to mow it for 1/2 the price, would the first guy have a "right" to set your lawn on fire if you tried to hire the kid?
I'm thinking you need to take a community college class in 'business ethics'. Pal.
"When isn't $13.7 Billion in the banks in Asia, and over $11 billion in Europe banks enough ? The UAW lawyers dug deep and found the money trail."
So Delphi is trying to hide close to $25B in overseas accounts according to......UAW lawyers? I see. I suppose that whatever you hear from the UAW and their lawyers is automatically gospel.....but if it comes from management it is automatically a stack of lies? I'm sure that GM would be interested to learn about these mysterious Billions as well.....
"...and export all the jobs eventually to China. This is why we as a country will someday collaspse in my opinion. We are losing good jobs where company's make a decent profit, but still want more."
The issue of 'exporting' jobs has been around since the industrial revolution made transportation of goods cost efficient. Industries of all types will ALWAYS seek out more efficient ways of doing business. 100 years ago it was the transfer of textile jobs out of the NE. Did the NE 'collapse'?
ONLY THOSE PARTS THAT COULDN'T ADAPT.
So your solution is what - pretend that the rest of the world doesn't exist? Pretend that manufacturing companies CAN be competitive and prosper and still have labor costs an order of magnitude higher than their competition? Pretend that UNION labor belongs to some higher order of the gene pool and that non-union folks just simply couldn't POSSIBLY be able to do the same type of work for less money?
Well your solution of giving the jobs to the lowest bidder is damaging to this country. With all these immigrants and huge growth in population, where's the money going to come from rorr to buy goods and services ? If we keep losing good paying middle american jobs, and nearly 27% of the jobs in this country comes from the manufactoring sectors disappears to China and India, where are folks going to work ? Seriously pal. I guess I feel manufactoring has always been a backbone of this country and feel a service based economy is very vulnerable to market changes. I'm not going to be overly affected, but my other country men and alot of my family will be.
If we need to use tariffs to level the playing field, then so be it. I think we are headed for a "ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT" :sick:
So how much are you setting aside to pay for Delphi pensioners? If Delphi goes under, it's the taxpayers who will shoulder the burden through the government-run pension-guarantee corp, which gets its money through explicit taxation and inflation.
I can guarantee you this that the workers will rig those machines to make sure they won't work right.
So much for high MORALS and business ethics on the part of the UAW workers. If those machines are so difficult to operate why would they need to damage them? If what you say is gospel, and it is not. They will not get replacement workers to do the job as well.
It is human nature to think that what we are doing is very important and our shoes would be tough to fill. When you leave or I leave someone else takes our place and we are soon forgotten. Delphi is no different. That Chinese worker that is just trying to feed his family will do as good of a job as your Dad or me or anyone else. We are living in a Global community and you have no choice. Unless you want to go barefoot and not watch TV or blog on the computer. Open your computer and look at where all the components are made. You see any "Made in USA by Union Labor"? If not you are taking a job away from a fellow American just as Delphi will be doing.
Most Wal-Mart workers aren't qualified to work there let alone run some high-tech machine.
Don't look down upon others so easily. You'd be surprised how many ex-high-tech workers are working at Wal-Mart, and I'm not just talking about those maintaining the 2nd most most sophisticated computer network in the world (after NSA) that Wal-Mart runs.
"Well your solution of giving the jobs to the lowest bidder is damaging to this country."
No. What is damaging to this country is a sense of entitlement.
You, and your dad, and I, are NOT ENTITLED to our jobs. We aren't ENTITLED to make 'X' amount of money JUST BECAUSE we're good Americans.
What I think we are entitled to is the opportunity to compete. Just as I think that Indians, or Pakistanis, or Chinese are entitled to the opportunity to compete.
Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that foreign competition should just 'go away' so that Americans can still live like it's 1955 is no solution. All you get is sand in your ears.
"I guess I feel manufactoring has always been a backbone of this country and feel a service based economy is very vulnerable to market changes."
First of all, it should be obvious that manufacturing is also vulnerable to market changes. That's why we're having this discussion. NO ONE is immune to market changes.
Second of all, what HAS BEEN the backbone of this country is....folks with a backbone. Folks who aren't afraid to compete. Folks who don't seek some sort of built in advantage. Folks who got ahead by BEING BETTER than the competition; not seeking some sort of protection. You think you, or your dad is WORTH a lot more than some Indian or Chinese? Why? How are you worth more to your company? What do you bring to the table that an Indian or Chinese doesn't or can't?
"I'm not going to be overly affected, but my other country men and alot of my family will be."
You are, unfortunately, probably correct. That may be because we, as a country, DO have a sense of 'entitlement' and have lost our competitive backbone.
"If we need to use tariffs to level the playing field, then so be it."
In other words, I must have my buying power reduced (by forcing me to pay higher prices) in order to subsidize your higher wages?
Didn't the two top Enron guys just get convicted, as they should be? Same can happen to the little guys if they destroy Delphi property on the way out the door to go on strike.
Your Dad was smart to take the buyout. He can probably get a job in a machine shop and work the hours he wants without the stress and hassles of a big company and Union.
"Maybe you can say Enron, Worldcom (LDDS), ATT, and whole bunch of others that pull shenanigans."
No, what they need is many years spent in an 8x8 cell with 2 hours out everyday breaking big rocks into small ones.
I'm not blind to corporate shenanigans. When found, it should be punished. But there is a difference between cooking the books and trying to be efficient.
Can't we send them there on a rail with tar and feathers for the personal embarrassment? Showing up in court in $1000 suits with $1000/hr attorneys doesn't disgrace them enough, if they even have a conscience.
We needed to have them attached to the rail and the tar and feathers
You are preaching to the wrong guy. I would impose the death penalty for all high crimes as a deterrent. One quick appeal and whack em. I believe our system of justice has been diluted by evil forces that claim to be protecting us. The victim has little protection in this country. The criminal gets all the benefits not afforded those that were hurt. And the lawyers get all the money. What do we expect with a system designed by lawyers?
Some Walley World Greeter is going to jump right in and start making Fuel Injectors making $14 an hour.
That is exactly what happened in the Seimen's diesel injector plant north of Columbia, SC. Start up was fairly smooth and they are humming right along now.
Now remember that I come from a union family. Both my grandpas worked the lines in Flint. I can remember my dad going off to work in his corvair (used, so probably around '69 or so) with a club to prepare for a strike. Yes union is all about extortion and management is all about getting the most they can out of the workers. that is the way it works in this country. Now what is wrong with this is when either side does not play by the rules/law. Does GM submit it's workers to unlawful working conditions-unsafe, too many hours, etc. And on the other side is the hourly dishonest in its working-ie not show up, not put in a good days work, etc. I can pretty much say that at least today GM plays by the rules. Jobs may be boring and tedious but are safe. ( I am talking GM, I do not know what is going on at that other company Delphi, but not too much different since I know many who wark there).
Now my dad retired from GM as an engineer after many years as a foreman. He was on both sides (as was I). He knows that many of the workers did not earn their pay. But there are others who did work hard.
All I ever heard from management is "if you don't give us what we want, we'll close it"
Now that the companies are going under/have competition from outside the US they are in trouble and need help from the hourly. In the past GM/Delphi has never gotten anything from the Union. Every strike has cost them. The union is the one that held the stick for years. Only in the recent pasts has the union allowed less generous "work rules" to exists. GM has never held the line on wages. They have always gone up until recently even when the competition had significantly lower wages. Things are a changing Rock. The union needs to start dealing or they will be gone. To bad they did not start when GM sold off Delphi. It probably could have kept a few more plants open. Just think if the Delphi plants were modern facilities! I doubt they would be closing them down.
That is a good point. Where did all those transplants OEM's and suppliers get all the prople that are working for them down south? I think they got them from the south and doubt they hired skilled manufacturing employees. The reason they moved inot the south was to get cheap labor that would be happy for well paying jobs.
Rocky, take a moment and look around where you are sitting, reach out and touch everything around you, the computer, monitor, keyboard, mouse, desk, paper, cup, tissue, jeans, T-shirt, watch, even house, wall paint/paper, wood or tile flooring, etc.. tell us which one of them is not made or brought to you by "Corporate America"?
Corporations are just a bunch of people getting together and getting things done. Yes, there are dishonest corporations just like there are dishonest individuals. Since you used the world "slaughter," the last time I checked while thousands of Americans are murdered every year by fellow citizens, not a single victim was actually "slaughtered" by a corporation. Corporations also make mistakes, just like human beings (because the actual corporate decision makers are human beings with their own failings). The reason why free market works is not because it is run by a wise sage pulling all the right strings behind the curtain; it works just like the natural world: process of elimination, companies that make bad decisions see their claims on natural and human resources shrink! Just like managing your retirement or investment porfolio, if you take care of getting rid of the money losers as quickly as possible, the gainers can take care of themselves and you :-) That's why free market competition works better than monopolistic management through regulation and "protection": mistakes and changes in market condition get transmitted a lot quicker . . . workers don't have to wait for 30 (like unions in this country) or 70 years (like workers in former soviet union) to find out that their line of work/retirement is doomed.
Firing and lay-offs can be painful on the receiving end in the short run; however think for a moment from the other side of the table: you are probably going to hire baby sitter soon if not already so that you can have a night out on the town with your wife, what would you do if:
(1) the baby sitter is caught napping or making out with her boyfriend and neglecting your baby while she is paid to be on duty? (i.e. personal dereliction of duty)
(2) you found out that the baby sitter uses drugs or has a terrible driving record? (i.e. no fault on the job per se, but has a high risk factor that may pose a danger to your baby)
(3) your baby has grown up in a few years, or that your in-law moved in and is willing to baby sit for nominal cost in the form of occasional gifts. (i.e. the market condition changed, or much cheaper labor is found).
Under any of those circumstances, do you continue to pay the baby sitter even if she is no longer required? if you let her go, is that consider "slaughtering" her? Are you then treating her like cattle? Before you laugh, for the amount UAW workers get paid, one can easily hire a real professional child care giver with Master's degree in child psychology.
way out the door unfortunately reminds me of union shenanigans way too much. Protecting bad workers from being fired(like unions do) doesn't make a "strong" workforce with great pay and benefits for all, it just dilutes the effectiveness of the company's workforce.
I also believe that you can train a Mega-lo-Mart front door greeter to run machines that produce quality automobiles and other products as well. Granted, some people will do better than others. Whether it be fuel injectors, engine blocks, brake calipers, turbochargers, whatever the item might be. Just give them a good chance to learn and don't do the "this job is mine and you can't have it" routine that permeates the business world so badly. That has hurt more people's careers than excessive alcohol consumption.
So how much are you setting aside to pay for Delphi pensioners? If Delphi goes under, it's the taxpayers who will shoulder the burden through the government-run pension-guarantee corp, which gets its money through explicit taxation and inflation.
All those pensioners brightness, including all of my Delphi family members are funded by General Motors and not Delphi pal. I can't think of anyone who marked the Delphi box when they had a choice.
Well because we are in a global economy doesn't mean I have to accept it with open arms, without protest. I know many are huge "free traders" or "Open Marketeers" and that's fine. OTOH I can see the damage a open market can due when we have all of our R&D copied, wages slashed because of living standards, losses in tax revenue, etc etc etc. How is an american going to compete with a foreigner like those from China, India, etc ? Sure there are a few sectors that we can compete because they haven't caught up. Your middle class american is typicaly worried about making ends meet, let alone buy the latest product from Joe Six-Packs local small buisness. We are seeing a major decline in the spendable capital by your average person and a huge rise in medical, pharmaceuticals, all insurances, All energy, homes, and while alot of americans are still spending money, credit card debt, bankruptcy's, poverty, are on the rise. If these folks quit buying, who's going to replace them to keep buisness afloat. All I'm saying is guys, I honesty feel the faucet is going to end someday soon. Do we have to hit rock bottom economically to change ??? Will it be to late ???
All I'm saying is the UAW workers are the ONLY ones who know the ins and outs of their machines. People like my dad installed them and know how to repair them. In fact most of the machine repairmen that helped my father install these sophisticated pieces of machinery don't have the knowledge of day to day to keep them running. Dad leaves on vacation last week and once the machines break down, they sit until he gets back. Some employees can work out the small kinks, but the big stuff it takes a very mechanically inclined person to get the machine running at it's peak performance. So basically "rigging" the machines might of been a bad choice of words and likely wouldn't happen, but however the UAW workers won't be there to assist the replacements while they pull out the blueprints to figure what part turns this part.
Delphi's committment to this country speaks for itself and $25 Billion in foreign banks to hide money while they cry foul, and claim they are on the brink of collaspse is very unethical in my opinion. If any of you don't think so, then perhaps it's the UAW workers that have the morale ground to stand. Most of Delphi's management who had little to do with building Delphi into a empire, will play chess and I personally feel if they succeed it will roll down hill all across this great country. :sick:
I'm not going to sit back and argue with you rorr. I like ya alot. We just see it so differently. Perhaps if I was sitting in your shoes, I'd beable to look at it from your perspective more easily. I guess being part of the middle class, and being surrounded with mostly middle class family members it's had a very real affect. People like myself sometimes get labeled as anti-buisness. I'm not a anti-buisness person, but I am anti-greed, and a protectionist when it comes from sheltering our economy from 3rd world country's. Especially from country's we could end up going to war with.
...what happens to machines when plants are closed and moved elsewhere. Back in 1988 I helped set up a line of blowmolding machines to make plastic bottles. These machines were moved from a closed plant in Clifton, NJ to an industrial park outside Hazleton, PA. We opened the machines to find the wiring harnesses slashed to bits and electrical relays either smashed or missing.
The industrial parks in the Hazleton area usually consist of non-union plants that are notorious for hiring recent immigrants, (legal or otherwise) at low wages while neglecting the area's natives. I've heard a story where a man used his real name and his application was rejected. He then went back and used a false Hispanic name and was immediately hired. I don't know what happened later.
I also recall a meat packing plant that was given all kinds of generous tax concessions by the local authority on the promise that they would hire area natives. What did the plant do? It "imported" Hispanic workers from elsewhere and double-crossed the local government.
Comments
Several company's can do the work in Michigan. :shades:
Rocky
If the management lied to you about the promises of 401k, I would not trust them on running my pension either :-) 401k is something that I'm in control of and can roll over to a different company if I wish; pension plan is literally stuck with those liars :-)
"Retiring like millionares" or "living like millionares" is something of a moving goal post. Having a million dollars does not mean much without knowing what the cost of living price levels are. Back when we were born (I'm in my 30's), $10-30k probably could buy the biggest houses in our respective neighborhoods . . . today we can't even buy a parking spot with that money. New cars were $800, not $40k.
The concept of "millionare" is really about living standard: the ability to afford goods and services that one wants, hopefully not as necessity but more or less on a whim (million-peso-nare, million-lira-nare and million-yen-nare just don't cut it because the currency units can't buy much). Well then, someone has to do the work of providing the goods and services, since presumably millionares doing each other's gardening and cleaning is not in the dreams of being millionares :-) By the looks of it, we have reached the political limit on how much goods and services we can get from across the border by importing goods and workers. . . there is a tough row ahead, with the baby boomers retiring and people of our generation being the ones who have to provide for them (on a societal scale even if not on family basis).
Saturday, May 27, 2006 Chairman of General Motors Corp. By Rick Wagoner Special to the Los Angeles Times
Advertisement
This is a critically important time for the U.S. auto industry -- and a highly challenging one as well. Growing global competition, soaring healthcare costs and the persistent misperception that American cars aren’t as good as Japanese cars compel Detroit to think hard about its future.
What happens at General Motors is obviously important to our employees, retirees, dealers, customers and suppliers. Wall Street cares too because of the financial implications for our stockholders and bondholders. But should the rest of America care much about what happens to GM?
The answer is, yes, Americans should care -- and care a great deal.
GM’s future is vitally important to the United States. The numbers speak for themselves: GM has nearly 329,000 employees worldwide, 138,000 of them in the United States; 450,000 retirees; 1.1 million Americans receiving GM health-plan benefits; 7,300 dealers in virtually every city and town in the United States, employing nearly 300,000 workers, and 1,800 supplier companies from which we buy more than $40 billion worth of goods and services each year. In terms of customers, the numbers are even more dramatic. There are about 73 million GM cars on American roads today.
As powerful as these numbers are, they don’t come close to telling the full story of GM’s relevance to the American public. Two of the most challenging issues facing the United States today are globalization and rapidly escalating healthcare and retirement costs. At GM, we know these issues as well as any company, and we are working diligently to address them in a manner that is both financially prudent and socially responsible. In many respects, GM is a window on the nation’s near-term future. How do we compete with low-cost producers globally? Can we hold our own in the growing markets of China, India and elsewhere? How do we meet our pension obligations made over the last several decades? And can we make vehicles as good as the ones made by our Asian, European and other competitors?
Last year was a tough one for all of us at GM, with a $10.6 billion loss. Over the last several months, though, we have been aggressively implementing a turnaround plan that increases our investment in new cars and trucks, revitalizes our sales and marketing strategy, addresses our healthcare burden and significantly improves our cost competitiveness. We’ve also announced plans to idle 12 plants and reduce 30,000 manufacturing jobs by 2008.
GM already is a dramatically more competitive company globally than most Americans realize. Last year we were the world’s largest automobile manufacturer for the 75th consecutive year, with sales of nearly 9.2 million vehicles worldwide -- more than any other competitor, foreign or domestic. And for the first time in our history, we sold more cars and trucks outside the United States than within it. In China, the fastest-growing vehicle market in the world, GM displaced Volkswagen as the top-selling automaker.
We know we’ve got a lot more to do. The reality of a global economy is that the race is never won; it never ends. Continuous innovation, excellent quality and financial discipline are the only guarantees of future success.
With respect to the extraordinary healthcare obligations that GM and many other American corporations shoulder, the road ahead is challenging. GM’s healthcare bill in 2005 was a staggering $5.3 billion, by far the highest of any American business. It’s a cost that puts us at an unsustainable disadvantage to most of our foreign-based competitors, whose governments cover many of these costs.
The current U.S. healthcare system creates enormous tensions between employers, employees, insurance companies and healthcare providers. Obviously government has a role to play in finding solutions, but we can’t and won’t wait for that to happen. Instead, we have been working cooperatively with our unions to achieve reductions in our healthcare obligations. Last fall we negotiated a $15 billion reduction in GM’s long-term healthcare liabilities, while working with the healthcare industry to find ways to make the system more efficient.
We also have reduced the salaries of our senior executives, including me, by up to 50 percent; cut the GM dividend to shareholders in half, and scaled back pension benefits for salaried employees. We believe in shared sacrifice and in solving our own problems. We’re not looking for or asking for a taxpayer bailout.
Perhaps the most frustrating challenge facing all of us at GM is changing the misperception that our cars and trucks don’t measure up to some foreign makes. The fact is, every major automaker makes good vehicles today. On a model-by-model comparison, different companies will be slightly ahead in different segments, but overall, GM cars and trucks rank among the best in terms of quality and value for the dollar.
This is important for consumers to understand. We all benefit from maximum choice in the marketplace. If consumers bypass GM dealers because of the misperception that our cars are not competitive, they lose just as certainly as we do. For many reasons, people should be interested in the turnaround at GM. We’ve been helping Americans pursue their love affair with the car for nearly a century. Today’s challenges are difficult, but we will overcome them.
Across the nation, there are kids not yet old enough to drive who are thumbing through car magazines, dreaming of the day they can get behind the wheel of a Chevy Corvette or Pontiac Solstice. We plan to be there for them, as we were for their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents.
Get well, GM. Maybe try a blood expander instead of straight blood for your needed transfusion, though, eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Are you still crying about that game? USC or the Texas Longhorns could have beat the Seahawks that day. They stunk. Heck the GM parking lot team could have whipped that Seattle team... :P
I could see it in the looks on the faces of the ref's that they were being bought off. Jackson swept over the pylon at the end of the first half and the play should have been called a TD, but time just expired and the teams wernt into the locker room like nothing happened. I could list about 50 flags, nonflags or crappy calls to prove my point that money spoke more to those referees that day than honesty and good football.
I have a lot of company that feels the same way. I have read countless articles on that travesty of justice they named the Super Bowl on February 5, 2006. Anybody with a knowledge of the game knows the game was thrown.
As for poor GM and the UAW, it's simply too little, too late. Start looking for other work, dudes and dudettes.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm waiting for the Union to do something stupid like strike against Delphi. That will be the last hoorah for a lot of union workers. UAW members will be crossing the lines within a week and the fight will be over. Folks from the local Walmart would love to get $20 an hour as non-union replacements. May take them a couple months to get back up to speed on the factories they want to keep open.
BREAK THE HABIT
Labor's lesson: 'More' is less
Unions must learn they're asking for far too much
By GEORGE S. MCGOVERN
I have never wavered in my support for policies that relieve poverty and improve the standard of living of American workers.
As a lifelong liberal, I supported Medicare and Medicaid, civil rights, Social Security and workplace safety requirements. Today, I strongly support universal health care.
I have always been a supporter of the labor movement. Unions have a proud legacy of improving the lives of millions of workers over the last century. But lately I have seen developments that have me worried. I am reminded of legendary union leader John L. Lewis, who was asked what his miners were after. His answer? "More."
It was a funny answer, and perhaps honest, too. But these days, it's not a very effective strategy, and we are seeing some unfortunate and unintended consequences of Lewis' "more" philosophy.
Delphi Corp., the biggest auto parts supplier in the country and the employer of 34,000 hourly workers, is bankrupt. One big reason is that the company's unionized workers earn $64 an hour in wages and benefits — more than twice what some of its competitors pay.
General Motors and Ford — the companies that have epitomized high-paying unionized jobs over the last several decades — will lay off 30,000 workers each. The United Auto Workers, General Motors and Delphi recently announced an agreement to offer voluntary buyouts to the UAW-represented employees at the companies.
Airlines have come under similar pressure. The bankruptcy stories associated with legacy carriers are driven in large part by the compensation packages and work rules that unions have won for their members, which are too expensive compared to more recent entrants such as Southwest.
"More" has, unfortunately, become "too much" in a global and far more competitive economy.
Many of my friends will consider this view heretical. But it is based on reality. Some progressive union leaders, facing this economic reality, have come to the same conclusion. Others are holding fast. Their behavior is a function of internal politics — and sheer habit. Not unlike members of Congress, union leaders are in the business of asking for more. That's what their mentors and predecessors and heroes did. It's very difficult to turn around and say that "more" is not always possible.
It can be galling to hear companies argue that they have to cut wages and benefits for hourly workers — even as they reward top executives with millions of dollars in stock options. The chief executive of Wal-Mart earns $27 million a year, while the company's average worker takes home about $10 an hour. But let's assume that the chief executive got 27 cents instead of $27 million, and that Wal-Mart distributed the savings to its hourly workers. They would each receive a bonus of less than $20. It's not executive pay that has created this new world.
I understand the attraction of asking business — the perceived "deep pockets" — to shoulder more of the responsibility for social welfare. But there are plenty of businesses that don't have deep pockets. Many large corporations operate with razor-thin profit margins as competitors, both foreign and domestic, attract consumers by offering lower prices.
The current frenzy over Wal-Mart is instructive. Its size is unprecedented. Yet for all its billions in profit, it still amounts to less than four cents on the dollar. Raise the cost of employing people, and the company will eliminate jobs. Its business model only works on low prices, which require low labor costs. Whether that is fair or not is a debate for another time. It is instructive, however, that consumers continue to enjoy these low prices and that thousands of applicants continue to apply for those jobs.
Maryland recently passed a law aimed at requiring Wal-Mart to spend more on health insurance. This is an extremely flawed path to health care reform. We need universal coverage, not piecemeal legislation designed to punish companies because they operate differently than their competitors.
The fact is, demanding more from business based on sales or the number of employees is not always the best way to achieve a just result. Although I believe we should allow businesses to pay employees based on their skill level, I also believe we should supplement the wages of those who earn the least.
Universal health care provided by the federal government is one way to supplement income. It is also a way of relieving hard-pressed businesses of one of their highest cost burdens. It is the rising cost of health care that is said to be a major cause of the layoffs at GM and Ford.
Another way to benefit workers financially is the earned income tax credit. This is a program that both unions and business can endorse. It also has the virtue of being supported by a progressive tax system, in which the rich are asked to pay more.
Liberals must never abandon their core principles of justice and equality. But union leaders who still see American businesses as the enemy must update that vision.
McGovern, a former U.S. senator from South Dakota, was the Democratic nominee for president in 1972. This article originally appeared in the Los Angeles Times.
I will never forget one negotiation with our little company. The Boss gave us his package offer prior to us presenting what we wanted. We looked it over with the Teamster Business agent and Chief Negotiator. The Negotiator said no way can I accept this wage package. We did not understand because it was more than we were going to ask for. He said if I take this offer I will be in deep trouble with the AT&T bargaining unit. They always look at what you guys get and expect as much or more. It was one of the fastest contract settlements I was part of. The Boss was shocked when we told him what we wanted and signed that afternoon. So as Mr. McGovern pointed out MORE is not always good for the workers or the company.
Why would that be stupid ? Explain what benefit it would be from the employee's point of view ???? Seriously name me one benefit to the employee :mad: ? Delphi is shutting 21 out 29 plants down, so it's not like the company is going to keep jobs here. As far as I'm concerned Delphi can go under.
The UAW lawyers have found $13.7 Billion in the cash coffers in banks in Asia. The UAW lawyers also found another $11 point something Billion over in Europe. It's all a Big Fat Lie by the company that wants to bust the union. :mad:
Rocky
Most Wal-Mart workers aren't qualified to work there let alone run some high-tech machine.
I'm confused about something. I thought that part of the UAW contracts that Delphi was trying to get thrown out in Court stated that Delphi couldn't close any plants. But now you're saying that they ARE shutting down 21 of 29 plants.
Are you saying that they are already shutting down plants even though the UAW contracts are still in effect, or that IF the contracts are thrown out, that Delphi PLANS to shut down 21 plants?
Is it possible that the plants that Delphi wishes to close are old and outdated? That they have no market (or reduced market) for the parts those plants produced?
Do all 29 plants employ the same number of folks/produce the same value of parts? Are they simply closing the smallest, less efficient plants? Are they perhaps CONSOLIDATING any plants?
So, you'd be willing to sink the WHOLE company (all 29 plants - including presumably the most efficient/profitable for Delphi), throwing EVERYBODY out of work, rather than have a healthy company with 8 plants going strong?
Once the UAW employees walk out, Delphi can hire anyone they want to work in that plant. As long as they stay on the job there is a contract in effect that protects the employees. This is not 1998 when GM was selling SUVs & PU trucks faster than they could build them. You seem to think it would be tough to train new employees on new modern machines. I disagree with you. No one is indispensable, That includes all the workers at Delphi, Union and non-union.
Delphi will have no problem replacing their workers.
Within 3 years Delphi, will consolidate, off-shore, close, sell off certain divisions, 21 out of 29 North American divisions.
Are you saying that they are already shutting down plants even though the UAW contracts are still in effect, or that IF the contracts are thrown out, that Delphi PLANS to shut down 21 plants?
My dads Coopersville plant is a goner. It made $143 million last yr. and will be consolidated to Rochester, New York. Delphi also is going away from the "techno" Multec 2 fuel Injector to making Multec 3. The Multec 2 process is so hard that the Chinese, and Germans couldn't built them without producing large quanity's of scrap. The Multec 3 is simpler, not as sophisticated and will eventually be made in China and the Rochester plant will close someday. :mad:
Is it possible that the plants that Delphi wishes to close are old and outdated?
Yes some are old and outdated, but some of the plants they are keeping older such as the Wyoming Mi. Delphi plant was built during WW2. The Coopersville plant was built in the mid 80's and my pops transferred to Coopersville, during that time.
That they have no market (or reduced market) for the parts those plants produced?
It's not so much the market has been reduced, but why pay a American wage, when you can pay a Chinamen $0.60 an hour ?
Delphi also claims some of the products aren't competitive and yes that is true to some degree. OTOH other company's want those contracts and are going to China, India, to built those parts to make even bigger profit margins.
Do all 29 plants employ the same number of folks/produce the same value of parts? Are they simply closing the smallest, less efficient plants? Are they perhaps CONSOLIDATING any plants?
Your average Delphi plant is using 1/3 of the people they had in the 80's because of huge improvements in techniques and robotics, thus creating a need for less people. They also build more parts today with a 1/3 of the people, then they did in the 80's. The wyoming plant as ineficient as it was by todays standards made $40 million after paying everybody. Today in make over $100 million and for some reason it's not on the list of closings.
So, you'd be willing to sink the WHOLE company (all 29 plants - including presumably the most efficient/profitable for Delphi), throwing EVERYBODY out of work, rather than have a healthy company with 8 plants going strong?
Yes I would if I was a employee. They built the company and when it goes corrupt, by god they have the right to atleast damage it. I think it comes down to morales, buisness ethics. When isn't $13.7 Billion in the banks in Asia, and over $11 billion in Europe banks enough ? The UAW lawyers dug deep and found the money trail. Delphi management has been crying foul, and want to bust the UAW membership and export all the jobs eventually to China. This is why we as a country will someday collaspse in my opinion. We are losing good jobs where company's make a decent profit, but still want more. I put dephi management in the same boat as Delay, and they deserve to rot in a prision cell. They can't have any faith, because if I did something like this to good people that are just trying to make a living I couldn't sleep at night and look myself in the mirror in the morning. I guess that's where they and people like myself are so different. I have a conscious.
Rocky
Rocky
My dad told me the UAW lawyers followed the money like a bloodhounds and found in the European and Asian banks over $25 BILLION dollars is liquid cash. The UAW lawyers have said how can you guys file bankruptcy hiding all that money and claim losses here in the states. I've stated the plant profits at 2 Michigan plants which equl over $250 million in profits where my family works in previous posts.
Rocky
That's awful funny you think those machines are so easy to operate. Sure a few are easy to do, but alot take training. I can guarantee you this that the workers will rig those machines to make sure they won't work right. Delphi management was fighting the UAW to not let my father leave before December of this year. Dad said I want to be gone by July, and I will train my replacement right now and hopefully if he pays attention to how I do my job he will be ready by the time I leave. Dad, told me he doesn't think he will be ready because it's so hard and it would normally take 3 months to learn the job. You guys don't get it. Who's going to fix the machines when they break down ?????? Some Walley World Greeter is going to jump right in and start making Fuel Injectors making $14 an hour. Ya'll that believe that are living in a fantasy world and never been in a high-tech factory before obviously. Who's going to operate the Electron Microscope ? The guy in charge of assembling Big Macs ? :surprise:
Whatever, if they go on strike you will see. GM, has warehouses full of parts anyways. I do see Rick Wagoner ousting Steve Miller before it's over. He already told him to sit down and shut up.
Rocky
Rocky
I haven't seen any articles. Maybe it hasn't been released yet. You did see that the company wanted to bring back the union to the bargaining table
62' I'll keep ya posted pal.
Rocky
No, they DON'T have the "right" to damage it. You are confusing 'ability' with 'right'.
If you hired a guy to mow your lawn and he mowed your lawn every week for 5 years, and then you found a kid to mow it for 1/2 the price, would the first guy have a "right" to set your lawn on fire if you tried to hire the kid?
I'm thinking you need to take a community college class in 'business ethics'. Pal.
"When isn't $13.7 Billion in the banks in Asia, and over $11 billion in Europe banks enough ? The UAW lawyers dug deep and found the money trail."
So Delphi is trying to hide close to $25B in overseas accounts according to......UAW lawyers? I see. I suppose that whatever you hear from the UAW and their lawyers is automatically gospel.....but if it comes from management it is automatically a stack of lies? I'm sure that GM would be interested to learn about these mysterious Billions as well.....
"...and export all the jobs eventually to China. This is why we as a country will someday collaspse in my opinion. We are losing good jobs where company's make a decent profit, but still want more."
The issue of 'exporting' jobs has been around since the industrial revolution made transportation of goods cost efficient. Industries of all types will ALWAYS seek out more efficient ways of doing business. 100 years ago it was the transfer of textile jobs out of the NE. Did the NE 'collapse'?
ONLY THOSE PARTS THAT COULDN'T ADAPT.
So your solution is what - pretend that the rest of the world doesn't exist? Pretend that manufacturing companies CAN be competitive and prosper and still have labor costs an order of magnitude higher than their competition? Pretend that UNION labor belongs to some higher order of the gene pool and that non-union folks just simply couldn't POSSIBLY be able to do the same type of work for less money?
Am I the only one who sees a pervasive Union mentality of "if we don't get what we want, we'll break something"?
I always thought of this as 'extortion'. Unless you're in a Union, then I guess it qualifies as 'business ethics'.
If we need to use tariffs to level the playing field, then so be it. I think we are headed for a
"ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT" :sick:
Rocky
"Well that's like the pot calling the kettle black"
All I ever heard from management is "if you don't give us what we want, we'll close it"
So rorr, what's the difference ? Corporate America, looks at us average americans like cattle. You feed them, and then slaughter them.
Rocky
Good idea for the companies, don't ya think. Maybe you can say Enron, Worldcom (LDDS), ATT, and whole bunch of others that pull shenanigans.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So how much are you setting aside to pay for Delphi pensioners? If Delphi goes under, it's the taxpayers who will shoulder the burden through the government-run pension-guarantee corp, which gets its money through explicit taxation and inflation.
So much for high MORALS and business ethics on the part of the UAW workers. If those machines are so difficult to operate why would they need to damage them? If what you say is gospel, and it is not. They will not get replacement workers to do the job as well.
It is human nature to think that what we are doing is very important and our shoes would be tough to fill. When you leave or I leave someone else takes our place and we are soon forgotten. Delphi is no different. That Chinese worker that is just trying to feed his family will do as good of a job as your Dad or me or anyone else. We are living in a Global community and you have no choice. Unless you want to go barefoot and not watch TV or blog on the computer. Open your computer and look at where all the components are made. You see any "Made in USA by Union Labor"? If not you are taking a job away from a fellow American just as Delphi will be doing.
Don't look down upon others so easily. You'd be surprised how many ex-high-tech workers are working at Wal-Mart, and I'm not just talking about those maintaining the 2nd most most sophisticated computer network in the world (after NSA) that Wal-Mart runs.
No. What is damaging to this country is a sense of entitlement.
You, and your dad, and I, are NOT ENTITLED to our jobs. We aren't ENTITLED to make 'X' amount of money JUST BECAUSE we're good Americans.
What I think we are entitled to is the opportunity to compete. Just as I think that Indians, or Pakistanis, or Chinese are entitled to the opportunity to compete.
Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that foreign competition should just 'go away' so that Americans can still live like it's 1955 is no solution. All you get is sand in your ears.
"I guess I feel manufactoring has always been a backbone of this country and feel a service based economy is very vulnerable to market changes."
First of all, it should be obvious that manufacturing is also vulnerable to market changes. That's why we're having this discussion. NO ONE is immune to market changes.
Second of all, what HAS BEEN the backbone of this country is....folks with a backbone. Folks who aren't afraid to compete. Folks who don't seek some sort of built in advantage. Folks who got ahead by BEING BETTER than the competition; not seeking some sort of protection. You think you, or your dad is WORTH a lot more than some Indian or Chinese? Why? How are you worth more to your company? What do you bring to the table that an Indian or Chinese doesn't or can't?
"I'm not going to be overly affected, but my other country men and alot of my family will be."
You are, unfortunately, probably correct. That may be because we, as a country, DO have a sense of 'entitlement' and have lost our competitive backbone.
"If we need to use tariffs to level the playing field, then so be it."
In other words, I must have my buying power reduced (by forcing me to pay higher prices) in order to subsidize your higher wages?
Didn't the two top Enron guys just get convicted, as they should be? Same can happen to the little guys if they destroy Delphi property on the way out the door to go on strike.
Your Dad was smart to take the buyout. He can probably get a job in a machine shop and work the hours he wants without the stress and hassles of a big company and Union.
We needed to have them attached to the rail and the tar and feathers ready within months after they completed their raid of the money in the company!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, what they need is many years spent in an 8x8 cell with 2 hours out everyday breaking big rocks into small ones.
I'm not blind to corporate shenanigans. When found, it should be punished. But there is a difference between cooking the books and trying to be efficient.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Of course, then the ACLU would probably step in with some nonsense about 'cruel and unusual' yada yada yada.....
But is it really necessary? I always thought that Lay already looked a bit like a plucked chicken.
You are preaching to the wrong guy. I would impose the death penalty for all high crimes as a deterrent. One quick appeal and whack em. I believe our system of justice has been diluted by evil forces that claim to be protecting us. The victim has little protection in this country. The criminal gets all the benefits not afforded those that were hurt. And the lawyers get all the money. What do we expect with a system designed by lawyers?
That is exactly what happened in the Seimen's diesel injector plant north of Columbia, SC. Start up was fairly smooth and they are humming right along now.
Now my dad retired from GM as an engineer after many years as a foreman. He was on both sides (as was I). He knows that many of the workers did not earn their pay. But there are others who did work hard.
All I ever heard from management is "if you don't give us what we want, we'll close it"
Now that the companies are going under/have competition from outside the US they are in trouble and need help from the hourly. In the past GM/Delphi has never gotten anything from the Union. Every strike has cost them. The union is the one that held the stick for years. Only in the recent pasts has the union allowed less generous "work rules" to exists. GM has never held the line on wages. They have always gone up until recently even when the competition had significantly lower wages. Things are a changing Rock. The union needs to start dealing or they will be gone. To bad they did not start when GM sold off Delphi. It probably could have kept a few more plants open. Just think if the Delphi plants were modern facilities! I doubt they would be closing them down.
Corporations are just a bunch of people getting together and getting things done. Yes, there are dishonest corporations just like there are dishonest individuals. Since you used the world "slaughter," the last time I checked while thousands of Americans are murdered every year by fellow citizens, not a single victim was actually "slaughtered" by a corporation. Corporations also make mistakes, just like human beings (because the actual corporate decision makers are human beings with their own failings). The reason why free market works is not because it is run by a wise sage pulling all the right strings behind the curtain; it works just like the natural world: process of elimination, companies that make bad decisions see their claims on natural and human resources shrink! Just like managing your retirement or investment porfolio, if you take care of getting rid of the money losers as quickly as possible, the gainers can take care of themselves and you :-) That's why free market competition works better than monopolistic management through regulation and "protection": mistakes and changes in market condition get transmitted a lot quicker . . . workers don't have to wait for 30 (like unions in this country) or 70 years (like workers in former soviet union) to find out that their line of work/retirement is doomed.
Firing and lay-offs can be painful on the receiving end in the short run; however think for a moment from the other side of the table: you are probably going to hire baby sitter soon if not already so that you can have a night out on the town with your wife, what would you do if:
(1) the baby sitter is caught napping or making out with her boyfriend and neglecting your baby while she is paid to be on duty? (i.e. personal dereliction of duty)
(2) you found out that the baby sitter uses drugs or has a terrible driving record? (i.e. no fault on the job per se, but has a high risk factor that may pose a danger to your baby)
(3) your baby has grown up in a few years, or that your in-law moved in and is willing to baby sit for nominal cost in the form of occasional gifts. (i.e. the market condition changed, or much cheaper labor is found).
Under any of those circumstances, do you continue to pay the baby sitter even if she is no longer required? if you let her go, is that consider "slaughtering" her? Are you then treating her like cattle? Before you laugh, for the amount UAW workers get paid, one can easily hire a real professional child care giver with Master's degree in child psychology.
I also believe that you can train a Mega-lo-Mart front door greeter to run machines that produce quality automobiles and other products as well. Granted, some people will do better than others. Whether it be fuel injectors, engine blocks, brake calipers, turbochargers, whatever the item might be. Just give them a good chance to learn and don't do the "this job is mine and you can't have it" routine that permeates the business world so badly. That has hurt more people's careers than excessive alcohol consumption.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
All those pensioners brightness, including all of my Delphi family members are funded by General Motors and not Delphi pal. I can't think of anyone who marked the Delphi box when they had a choice.
Rocky
All I'm saying is the UAW workers are the ONLY ones who know the ins and outs of their machines. People like my dad installed them and know how to repair them. In fact most of the machine repairmen that helped my father install these sophisticated pieces of machinery don't have the knowledge of day to day to keep them running. Dad leaves on vacation last week and once the machines break down, they sit until he gets back. Some employees can work out the small kinks, but the big stuff it takes a very mechanically inclined person to get the machine running at it's peak performance. So basically "rigging" the machines might of been a bad choice of words and likely wouldn't happen, but however the UAW workers won't be there to assist the replacements while they pull out the blueprints to figure what part turns this part.
Delphi's committment to this country speaks for itself and $25 Billion in foreign banks to hide money while they cry foul, and claim they are on the brink of collaspse is very unethical in my opinion. If any of you don't think so, then perhaps it's the UAW workers that have the morale ground to stand. Most of Delphi's management who had little to do with building Delphi into a empire, will play chess and I personally feel if they succeed it will roll down hill all across this great country. :sick:
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Siemens Technology is like that of Flinstones, seriously.
Rocky
The industrial parks in the Hazleton area usually consist of non-union plants that are notorious for hiring recent immigrants, (legal or otherwise) at low wages while neglecting the area's natives. I've heard a story where a man used his real name and his application was rejected. He then went back and used a false Hispanic name and was immediately hired. I don't know what happened later.
I also recall a meat packing plant that was given all kinds of generous tax concessions by the local authority on the promise that they would hire area natives. What did the plant do? It "imported" Hispanic workers from elsewhere and double-crossed the local government.