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Acura TSX vs Lexus IS 250
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"Look at the summary sheets at the back of each magazine (Car and Driver, Road and Track, Motor Trend, etc.) or look at their web sites for the info."
Ninjaguy, you're the one who said the IS250 is "more poweful" than the TSX.
I looked at the latest mainstream magazines and on the internet and I couldn't find any comparisons between the engine performance of the IS250 vs the TSX. On the web, I did find one test of the IS250 (no comparisons with other cars though) at Yahoo Cars UK. This test indicated that the IS250 has 204 HP and accelerates from 0-60 MPH in 7.9 secs (The TSX beats both of these figures).
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/lexus-is250-1004916.html
Please throw me a bone here - can you at least tell me which magazines have done this testing, and which issues I should look at?
OTOH Car and Driver's review of the IS 250 said that its 0-60mph is at or near 7secs. Not enough to support that its better than the TSX.
Sticker on the Lexus: $ 36,185
Sticker on the Acura: $ 28,505
Difference is $7,680
Now if you consider that you can get a TSX for about $1,000 (some folks are paying $500) over invoice (around $27,500) while the Lexus is selling at sticker you are talking about a difference of $8,685. :confuse: You gotta like the Lexus A LOT to pay nearly $9K more. For me it was an easy decision.
Dave in VA
How is a $4,000 surround audio and nav package the "equivalent" to the base TSX audio system?!?!
They may trade a few features with each other (the TSX has heated seats and the Lexus has SmartAccess), but overall I think they are equivalent without adding anything.
Luxury Package
Includes perforated leather seats, heated and ventilated front seats, 3-position driver and passenger seat memory, outside electrochromatic mirrors with memory and reverse tilt, steering wheel memory, illuminated scuff plates, wood interior trim, power rear sunshade, high intensity discharge (HID) headlamps and rain sensing wipers.
Similar options to the TSX... perforated leather, heated seats, seat memory, wood trim, HID headlamps.
The IS250 with Luxury Package has ventilated seats, memory settings for the passenger seat, outside mirrors, steering wheel, and reverse-tilt outside mirror, illuminated scuff plates, genuine wood trim, power rear sunshade, bi-xenons, and rain sensing wipers. The TSX has none of these...
For example, if you want heated seats, you'll have to buy them on the Lexus. If you want SmartAccess, it's not offerred on the TSX.
The base Lexus also includes Bi-Xenon headlights, Knee airbags, and Brake Assist, which are also not available on the Acura.
Six of one, a half-dozen of the other...
So in other words, you discovered that there are no magazine tests of the IS250...
As I said before, until these two cars are tested side by side (same day, same track, same driver), it's just a guess which one is quicker than the other.
As far as engine power goes, until someone publishes a dyno chart for the IS250's V-6(there are several for the TSX), there's no way to know how it delivers it's power (how much space is "beneath the curve"). The shape of the curve is, in many ways, more important than the height of the peak.
Well first off, the Lexus hasn't been tested by an unbiased source yet (where are all those specs at the back of the magazines that you told me about?). The Lexus provided numbers are suspect because nobody knows how Lexus tested the car, what type of road was used, the weather conditions, etc.
Another problem I have is Lexus publishing the same numbers for both MT and AT. Unless it's a DSG/SMG type transmission, an AT car will almost always be slower and less powerful than an MT.
I can't accept your seat of the pants "feeling" that the Lexus is more powerful because I don't know you or your seat of the pants. The human proprioceptive system is easily fooled (throttle response, cabin noise, engine noise, suspension tuning, steering weight, etc. all conspire to influence your "feeling" about how a car performs. It's virtually impossible to make an accurate conclusion about how powerful a car is based on a brief test drive.
But our initial discussion was about your claim that the Lexus is "more powerful" because it has "more torque." My only objection to this statement is that you don't know how torquey the Lexus is until you see a chart of the torque output across the entire powerband. The TSX is a very tough car to beat because, although it peaks at 20 ft lbs less than the Lexus, it generates 90% of peak power from 2000 all the way to 7000 RPM.
All I'm saying is let's not jump to conclusions about engine output until we see the Lexus torque curve.
I also wondered about the same 0-60 time (M/T and A/T) on the Lexus web page and in the IS brochure. Road and Track has the car performance summaries near the end of the magazine. Their 0-60 number for the IS350 is 6.0, somewhat slower than tests from other magazines or claimed from Lexus (5.3). Road and Tracks' 0-60 time for the M/T 330i does match BMW's claim (6.2 vs. 6.1).
Based on the magazines' TSX tests with a M/T and Lexus' claim, the 2 cars have about the same performance. I have only driven the A/T versions of the TSX and IS250 (actually the AWD version), and the IS is definitely quicker (the IS350 and 330i are in a different league). When my son bought his TSX 1 1/2 half yrs ago, I also drove the TSX, IS300, and Accord (all with A/T), and the TSX was definitely less powerful than the other 2 cars. These test drives were with the salesman in the car, so the test drive did not provide the capability to really "drive like heck." However, my comparison with the IS250 is different because I drove it at the Taste of Lexus (autocross track setup) and have driven my son's TSX several hundred miles. With the HP essentially the same, and the TSX about 100 lbs lighter than the IS, the difference with the A/T would seem to be the torque. I would speculate that the IS250 torque curve is also relatively flat over a large RPM band, too. The engines that tend to have the narrow torque band at high RPMs tend to be the very high revving, high HP in line 4s such as in the Acura RSX Type S and the Honda S2000.
Are you interested in an A/T or M/T? Although FWD, the TSX handles just as well as the IS and is a much better value. Recommend going to the dealers and trying them out. Just make sure you appear to be serious about buying when you visit the dealers, they might even let you drive without the salesman with you (maybe on a 2nd visit). See the February issue of Car and Driver for tips on "getting that new car test drive."
I have not driven the IS250 yet, so I can't speak from experience about it's power delivery, but I will concede that the TSX with AT is a slug. I owned a TSX with 6MT for 2 years, and based on my "seat of the pants," my own comparison testing with a G-Tech last summer, and having read dozens of magazine tests, I'm confident that the TSX with MT is a low 7 sec car from 0-60, and mid 15 sec car in the 1/4 mile. At the track, it's nimble handling and high rev limit make it an entertaining and capable sedan. On the other hand, my uncle owns a TSX with AT and I find it to be pretty lifeless and uninspiring - almost like it's a completely different car. I'm confident that the RWD IS250 with AT will prove to be the quicker car.
I realize many people are considering these cars with the AT, and I won't comment on their performance (such as it is) anymore. Personally, I believe that if you want an AT, just get an Accord or Camry.
To me, driving a sport sedan with an AT is akin to listening to Saint Saens Symphony No. 3 on an I-Pod.
First prize for the best analogy on Edmunds in months (if not longer.)
Bottom line: Drive what you want based on what's important to you, not what's important to someone else.
I agree. My uncle loves his AT TSX too (meteor silver w/nav).
P.S. Thanks Imacmil.
My opinions may be subjective because I did not compare them with a stopwatch, but they are based on real driving experiences. When I first drove the A/T TSX, I immediately noticed a difference between it and my wife's Camry V6. With the TSX rated at 200 HP (2005 in 2006) and the Camry at 192, I had expected the performance to be similar, but it's not, the Camry is more powerful. However, the TSX is much more fun to drive. I have a M/T Integra (I have never driven the A/T Integra, but I assume that it would be a "dog" due to the small engine displacement), and I was surprised that the TSX handles better than my Integra because the TSX is the Accord that is sold in the rest of the world. I guess this shows that the American public prefers softer riding cars and the "Americanized" Accord, and the rest of the world prefers "sporty handling cars."
So in summary, I would expect the IS250 and TSX with M/Ts to be close in acceleration, but based on my experience driving both cars, there is definitely a noticeable difference with A/Ts. Nevertheless, the TSX with either a M/T or A/T is a better value than the IS250.
I am planning on replacing my Integra in 2007. Having always had M/Ts, I have gotten "lazy" and am planning on buying an A/T. The leading candidates are G35 (next generation to be announced at the New York Auto Show in April), TL (but I like the TSX styling better), IS250/350 (overpriced), and 325i/330i (overpriced). Maybe I'll end up with a TSX????
I have a 04 TSX 6mt and a nice basic set up. I may seek out a 06 6mt (dealers in OK never have them) in a few months. Special order locate.
When I test drive a 04 AT it was not even as fast as Accord AT to me. Tranny simply had no way to grab the power.
Finally, 6 mt are worth about $700 less than AT despite same initial cost. Of course we all know why.
Oh, I stopped at Lexus and 6mt IS250 white sitting all alone. I would consider one with no options but this one was $40,000!!!!!! Loaded BMW or base IS350 makes sense here.
Nav, Mark L. Sport Package......did not drive but after reading 6mt opinions--can you imagine being stuck with a $40k lexus of 204 HP!!! It would never be sellable. Akin to 92 Lexus ES300 MT. A nice set up but no market. I saw one in my life and made one or two years max.
Back to Accord. Can you imagine the V-6 in the TSX. Accord can be had for $25k, TSX $26.5K, add autodiming mirror and fogs to accord, miss bluetooth, memory seat and HID but Accord does appear a better value and regular gas, most likely better gas mileage despite EPA (gearing).
Ninjaguy, your list looks identical to mine, except I'm more interested in the TSX than the TL. I came really close to buying an '05 330i (I like the old style 3-series over the new), but for just everyday driving to work & back (7 miles down 1 street), I really would like more interior niceties than BMW offers. At that price range, it seems to me that a car these days should have a CD changer and ANY sort of security system. The G35 coupe is my favorite on the exterior, and I loved how it handled, but the one I drove had a lot of wind noise that I think would drive me crazy after a while. I wonder if it was just that 1 car & maybe I should go back & try again?
Right now it's between the TSX & IS250 (TL is longer than I want). Fortunately I want to buy in the spring or summer, or even fall, so hopefully the price on the IS will come down a bit. I feel like I should go with the TSX because of its value, but it doesn't excite me the way the IS did. I drove A/T versions of both cars & felt the IS was a bit quicker. I do so little highway driving though; I just want to be sure I can get on & maneuver easily. I tend to keep my cars a solid 10 years or so - I don't want to buy one and later feel any buyer's remorse.
http://lexus.jp/models/is/performance/powerunit.html
The torque curve on Toyota's 2.5L looks impressive. It looks like it's powerful from idle to about 6000 RPM (it's hard to see the graph closely) than Honda's 2.4L engine, although power does drop off sooner.
If the IS weighed a couple hundred pounds less, the decision between these two would be a lot tougher.
I saw a cloth, RX300 once with no sunroof. Once in all my life I saw one at a gas station. Only because they have to make one if asked too.
The only way to get around it is to find a willing dealer and special order.
Speedracer3's questioning of Lexus' relatively new premium-car/premium-pricing strategy is fair I think. Dog-butted-slow $36K IS250s with teeny back seats will languish on dealer lots after the initial newness wears off. They'll be able to carry sales of the IS350 at $40K plus because the car offers class-leading performance. But I think Lexus will find that few people will pay the kind of money they're asking for the IS250 to get a smaller, slower car than virtually every vehicle in its class just because there's an "L" stuck on the front of it.
By the way, based on my SOTP-o-Meter, the IS250 6AT I drove would blow an '06 TSX 5AT into the weeds in a stoplight race. And that's not saying much, because that Lexus was a slow little thing. Made all the right noises though and drove like glass. The TSX 6MT is an entirely different animal, however, and I think would show its taillights without much trouble even though it's only a low- to mid-15-second car. Lexus made a BIG mistake sticking that dinky little V6 in the IS250 and offering it at $29,995 for the 6MT model, yet requiring nearly $10K worth of options to get apples-to-apples with the TSX.
My two cents is that anyone who pays $38K for a reasonably optioned IS250 is someone I'd like to meet, as I have various and sundry products I need to unloa... ah, sell.
Speedracer3's questioning of Lexus' relatively new premium-car/premium-pricing strategy is fair I think. Dog-butted-slow $36K IS250s with teeny back seats will languish on dealer lots after the initial newness wears off. They'll be able to carry sales of the IS350 at $40K plus because the car offers class-leading performance. But I think Lexus will find that few people will pay the kind of money they're asking for the IS250 to get a smaller, slower car than virtually every vehicle in its class just because there's an "L" stuck on the front of it.
By the way, based on my SOTP-o-Meter, the IS250 6AT I drove would blow an '06 TSX 5AT into the weeds in a stoplight race. And that's not saying much, because that Lexus was a slow little thing. Made all the right noises though and drove like glass. The TSX 6MT is an entirely different animal, however, and I think would show its taillights without much trouble even though it's only a low- to mid-15-second car. Lexus made a BIG mistake sticking that dinky little V6 in the IS250 and offering it at $29,995 for the 6MT model, yet requiring nearly $10K worth of options to get apples-to-apples with the TSX.
My two cents is that anyone who pays $38K for a reasonably optioned IS250 is someone I'd like to meet, as I have various and sundry products I need to unloa... ah, sell.
Yes, there are a few suckers that will pluck down $38K for an underpowerd IS250, but by this time next year they'll be gone and Lexus will have moved on. I wonder what resale value will look like on an IS250 next year when an IS300 wioll have the same price and offer more features standard. :lemon:
What accessories did you get with this?
Thanks
Yes Mr. Postmaster I understand that there is a "Prices Paid" forum, but I can't pass up this opportunity to find out info on the exact car I am looking at.
about $6000 not $9000.
For the value I would think TSX might be a better pick if your budget is tight. However. Lexus is a different class It's much better in quality and status/appeal as compared to Acura. FYI...JD Power Associates ranks TSX only 3 stars (no Acura model is rated higher than 3) whereas the IS as well at other Lexus models got 5 stars rating over all
Other than the platform difference there's little to seperate these two cars. The cost diff (at the manufacturing level) between these cars is probably less than 2K.
Well-said..you got a valid point there. However, I do trust JD Power Associates and CR's data.And of course only such a fool would purchase a car that is solely based on someone else's opinion. Simply put, an uninformed buyer will leave that factor ( data from CR & JD ) out of their decision making.
TSX:
Operate navigation while driving
Back seats fold down
AT sports shift more responsive (in my opinion)
Memory Seats
Better Voice Commands
HID Lights
Fold Down seat in the back
Easier to hack GPS (a big plus for me)
250:
Backup Camera
Better looking navigation graphic (note, I think Acura navigation is still superior)
Engine push start
Paddle Shift
6 Speeds
Better Turning Radius
Less Cabin Noise
More Passenger Adjustable seat position
Compass on rearview (TSX should have on navigation screen though)
Tire Pressure Monitor
I have read through postings and mostly heard about pro TSX opinions. Anybody would say the extra features in 250 is worth the extra 5 grand or not? Any TSX owner wish they have bought the 250?
I don't really want to compare performance because I have driven both cars and believe that they are pretty similar. I am not going to race the vehicle so no need to argue which one has 1 second faster 0 - 60 and stuff.
I bought my car before the IS came out, but, if I was looking today, I'd still opt for the TSX. I just prefer the Acura's intentions over those of the IS line. I don't need too many bells and whistles.
If I'm going to get into a car in the IS's price range, it's going to be a Bimmer not a Lexus. Just my $.02. :shades:
An additonal factor against the IS250 is that it is a much smaller car, or at least feels that way. The trunk in the IS is minimal. for a car this size, and the big center console, which adds to the cockpit feeling, made the car seem small. I also thought the visibility was worse in the IS, and I'm over 6ft.
You didn't list AWD for the IS, which was my primary motivation for looking at it.
My wife loves the way the TSX looks - BEFORE the test drive she said - I want a TSX - it was at the top of her list - the test drive was a big let down for both of us.
The IS 250 has SO MUCH better handling - better ride (firm but not harsh) it is a complete joy to drive - the engine is so smooth. THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THE TSX -
We have taken the TSX OFF our list - and think it is WAY over priced for what you get.
Sure the IS 250 costs an extra $5K - that is hard to justify - but
If things like lower price - bigger trunk - more room in the back seat are the main factors in your decision (nothing wrong with that BTW) then I would go look at the Accord V6 - it beats the TSX in value - trunk and rear seat space. Plus by my seat of the pants test - the V6 Accord would STOMP the TSX in a race - In fact I felt the 2006 Civic has better road feel than the TSX - MUCH better steering - and the ride was about the same. The TSX does feel faster than the Civic - but the EXTRA $10,000 in price should get you something.
I look at it this way - Honda keeps making things better - the Civic is a new model - MUCH better than the model it replaced. The TSX has been around for a few years - so that is what you are getting - an old design. Honda really needs to update the TSX - I just don't see how it can compete -
I prefered the TSX to the TL - and to the Accord EX 6spd/6cyl. There is an entire forum here dedicated to the Accord v TSX and I won't repeat what is there, but on features you can more clearly see why the TSX costs more than the Accord - and this isn't a knock, the Accord is a great fast car, spacious and comfortable, but it does not drive as well as the TSX nor is it as easy to find one relative to the TSX (two very, very, large Honda dealers are near me, and one of them had one.) If I didn't get the TSX, I would have bought the EX on the lot.
If it makes you feel better calling me a liar - then go for it - the fact that you bought a TSX tells me how much you know about cars!
Have you driven the 2006 civic? Go drive one - it handles better than the TSX - the ride (as in how it feels going over bumps) is about the same - but the road feel - Civic MUCH better.
Sure the TSX was new in 2004 - but based on the European market Honda Accord - what year did that car hit the market - was it 2001 - 2002? That is what I mean by old design.
If saving money and a large trunk and back seat are important go drive the Accord - if GREAT handling and real Luxury are most important (and money is not that big a problem) then go buy the IS 250.
If you want a 2001 European Honda Accord then the TSX is your dream car!
My prediction - both the next RSX and TSX will be based on the 2006 NA Honda Civic platform.