The Growing Divergence Between Horsepower and Speed Limits

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I also do not think you can be in the auto market and not see that the higher the displacements and secondarily, hp, the more you pay. So indeed the V8 is penalized. This is at EVERY level and as a consequence for the life of the vehicle. Toyota is one example. They have 4-8 cylinders. This is across product and brand lines i.e. Lexus, Toyota Tundra. So for a "full boat " Lexus with a V8 you can expect to pay 56k vs 15k or almost 4 times more (3.733333 actually) for a Toyota Corolla. Please note there is no V8 option for the Toyota Corolla. :):(
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    " .... bought a Z06 in November. He has driven it one time to give his son a ride. Never got over 45 MPH. It was a boring ride according to the grandson. "

    Problem with people that have common sense is that they are not going to wow the kid and set the expectation that high HP means getting crazy. Sounds like the kid is a solid citizen and with luck his kid will be the same.
    Most people don't realize that what they do in a car with very young children on board is what is learned as acceptable behavior. This doesn't require high HP to be bad education. I get passed by Insight's and Prius on the Freeway all the time. Talk about conflicted ...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sounds like the kid is a solid citizen and with luck his kid will be the same.

    They both are. Dad owns a very successful business and son just graduated with his Dr. of Divinity degree. Some people horde money others spread the wealth around. I think the Corvette was a long time dream and will be treated very carefully.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am surprised the low hp advocates have not mentioned the recent EPA acknowledgment to and/or the (AAA) American Automobile Association's not too recent past article/s which indicates the EPA figures (the religious declaration on every new car windshield) might indeed differ from real world results!!? To me, this has been and remains a DAH!!?? (LONG, LONG, LONG, time in coming DAH) But I guess the socio, economic, mechanisms which has been at work, has been the "emperor has no clothes" phenon? :)

    You might have thought this was a Hillary Clinton type Right Wing conspiracy , when a population of hybrid owners Prius, etc reports/ed LESS than EPA ratings and by a significant amount.

    So if the observation/s is true, i.e. EPA estimates and averages are indeed less ie less than 27 mpg average and less than EPA estimates, a lot of this type of discussion has been a (straw man) exercise in a building of a house of cards? So what remains is what is the REAL MPG average (for regulatory purposes of course, most folks understand the concept of a moving target)?

    Seems as if overnight, diesel products, which gives app 40% better fuel mileage than like gassers, a defacto superior position on the MPG issue.
  • nitromaxnitromax Member Posts: 640
    The Growing Divergence Between Horsepower and Speed Limits

    :-)
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    The sticker EPA numbers never were the source for CAFE and this was discussed earlier in this topic.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    The prime approach from the other side has been that HP is not needed on the highway, so why have it. The fact of changing life styles and recreation opportunities now provides growing numbers of street car owners with the the chance to get out to driving classes on high performance race tracks, all around the country. Since driving my own on track the first time three years ago I now instruct with two different groups and have seen many folks that want to know what the car can do and where the limits are so they are safer on the street. Rightly, they don't want to try this on the street. Take it to the track, there is a place close to you, I'll bet.
    Randy
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Truly if you go back to the arguments presented, the low hp types were saying the higher hp pollutes FAR more. In addition the claim was almost repeated ad infinitum that the hp used more resources. So indeed it is germane to the discussion as presented by the low hp advocates. Of course the irony is lost on them that indeed as the math has shown, it is the lower hp that is indeed producing more! The other irony is those very same vehicles have been shown to get less than EPA standards, less than the average of 27 mpg for the per year vehicle fleet. Indeed the only reasonable estimates might be (estimated) total fuel used in the usa divided by total cars and estimated total miles.
  • nitromaxnitromax Member Posts: 640
    Of course the irony is lost on them that indeed as the math has shown, it is the lower hp that is indeed producing more! The other irony is those very same vehicles have been shown to get less than EPA standards, less than the average of 27 mpg for the per year vehicle fleet.

    It's easy to compare *fleet* numbers of Camrys and *fleet* numbers of Corvettes and say "see, the Camrys pollute more than the Corvettes.
    yay for you!
    :-)

    But how do you feel about the "growing divergence of HP..." ?
    key word is "growing"

    More and more vehicles are being pumped out with outrageous HP numbers and you know as well a I do, that they will not/do not come close to the Vettes numbers.

    I'm not advocating driving around in 3 cylinder econoboxes, but I am all for a "toning down" of the HP war that is going on.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    But how do you feel about the "growing divergence of HP..." ?

    Some of us simply don't see a divergence. As has been said before by various posters:

    -You don't need a powerful car to exceed the speed limit. Just about any car being sold today can do it.

    -It's not a big deal if they are exceeding the current limits. The roads are getting safer, so why not increase traffic speeds if the results are positive? If people are exceeding the limits, then the problem is probably with the limits, not with the people.

    -IMO, the traffic speeds are increasing not because of horsepower, but because of the other capabilities of the car such as roadholding, as well as because of improved damping and insulation that reduces the sensation of speed. You can equip the same cars with lower HP engines, and drivers would behave similarly.

    Others have introduced other "issues" on this thread in order to move it toward their points of view. So far, I've seen no proof that people are driving more quickly because of greater horsepower, or proof that there is a resulting safety issue because of it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    But how do you feel about the "growing divergence of HP..." ?

    A moving or spreading apart in different directions from a common point.

    If we had a common point of reference it would be easier to determine if there is a divergence. My 1999 Suburban had a gross weight of 8000Lbs and 255 HP. I never felt it was underpowered. Now a Honda Accord Hybrid is 255 HP with a gross weight of about half the Suburban. The hybrids being the darlings of the environmental side of the country makes me think that is what we should strive for. So to bring the Suburban into line with the Accord hybrid it will need a 500 HP engine.

    The Suburban IMO does not need 500 HP. It is safe to say the Accord does not need 255 HP. It looks to me like Toyota and Honda have led this HP race in the midsize sedan market. And they are the ones wanting us to believe they are "GREEN".
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."It's easy to compare *fleet* numbers of Camrys and *fleet* numbers of Corvettes and say "see, the Camrys pollute more than the Corvettes.
    yay for you!
    :-) "...

    See Gagrices take on who are the real leaders in the HP wars!??

    Except the high hp in reality is overblown and LARGELY symbolic given the real world numbers of 431k vs 34,000 K. This of course will NEVER be acknowledged despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Also who has more HP 210 hp (40% of the Camry population) and 154 hp for the rest) x 431,000 or 500 hp x 8,000? Math really sux doesn't it? :)

    So can one get an unlimited supply of 90 hp vehicles? As in TDI's ? I dare say the low hp darling of the environmentalists indeed have more hp than 90 hp? TSK TSK. And what do you think the upgrades to the Prius will be? YUP ya got it HP!!!???

    BUT WAIT!!! Why should we pay thousands more for 154 hp when the quintessential (2006) economy, commute car Honda Civic makes 140 hp!?
  • nitromaxnitromax Member Posts: 640
    You don't need a powerful car to exceed the speed limit. Just about any car being sold today can do it.

    I agree. So then why have a 400 HP family sedan? Just so you can look cool taking little Johnny to the ball game?


    It's not a big deal if they are exceeding the current limits. The roads are getting safer, so why not increase traffic speeds if the results are positive? If people are exceeding the limits, then the problem is probably with the limits, not with the people.

    People alreday drive 20 mph over the limits now. Do you think if they raised them, then everybody would still drive 75-85 mph?
    No, they'll still be pushing the limits of the law and now you'll have cars doing 95-105 mph on the highway.
    The problem with that is there are still going to be tons (take that literally) of large trucks on the road going at a safer speed for them.

    So if speeds are increased we'll either have:

    A. Cars doing 100 mph and trucks doing 60 mph. A 40 mph differential between vehicles on the same road is dangerous.

    or

    B. Trucks traveling at 85-95 mph on the highway...and that's scary.

    And for what? to save a few seconds/minutes in a persons' commute?

    It just doesn't seem worth it to me.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    People alreday drive 20 mph over the limits now. Do you think if they raised them, then everybody would still drive 75-85 mph?

    No, they'll still be pushing the limits of the law and now you'll
    have cars doing 95-105 mph on the highway.

    That is a common misperception. Most drivers drive based upon speeds at which they are comfortable, not based upon what is posted on a sign.

    Speed limits that are excessively low get violated and are impossible to enforce without draconian measures or diversion of law enforcement away from other activities; speed limits that are reasonable are generally obeyed.

    This is all covered on the lengthy speed limit thread in the archives. Not many facts provided by the go-slow crowd to support the Everyone Drives X Miles Over the Limit theory, while there are numerous studies and traffic engineers who support what I've just told you.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    you: People alreday drive 20 mph over the limits now. Do you think if they raised them, then everybody would still drive 75-85 mph?
    No, they'll still be pushing the limits of the law and now you'll have cars doing 95-105 mph on the highway.

    me: My experience is that people will drive what is comfortable for them. This is mainly a function of their perceived risk. Risk is a function of the amount of traffic, the capability of their vehicle, the weather and the type of road.
    My data to support this is having driven the same commuting road for the last 10 years. Depending on conditions people drive the same stretches of road anywhere from 30 to 75 mph. People adjust their driving to their "thermostat level" where they perceive risk to be acceptable (usually low).

    The other reason people won't drive extremely fast for the typical person living check-to-check is financial (aerodynamics are going to hurt mpg). Also some cars are going to be very noisy at higher speeds and that is going to limit people.

    Now your idea of 75-85 may be appropriate for many areas. But interstates out in the middle of nowhere might have a higher limit yet in the left-lane. So this would keep the truck (or person wishing to drive slower) at 65mph separate from the higher-speeds.

    you: to save a few seconds/minutes in a persons' commute?

    me: The purpose of having appropriate speed limits is twofold: 1) get police officers working on unsolved crimes or preventing murders, rapes, and armed robbery. I also think it rather dangerous for police to give high speed chase thru traffic to write a fine to a commuter. The cop may be trained to drive, but an accident only requires 1 driver to make a mistake. The 2nd reason is 2) it is not good for a society to have laws that the majority of people break. It sets a precedent that it's okay to break certain laws. We should set our laws based on what we want and do, not on our hypocritical words.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    When Snakeweasel stated he owned a 400 hp V8 and 140 hp V4. I think I stated clearly that I saw no incongruity. From his posts, I would dare project he is a very accomplished driver, albeit curmudgeonly, as expressed by some of his posts :) And that is with ANY HP level!
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    pal o mine at work has the v6 camry with std trans. the thing eats clutches and gets the same mpg as my 400 hp v8 car, about 24 mpg highway.
    personally i drove well over 40k miles last year, about 30k in our TDI passat (40 mpg highway), and 10k in my holden monaro/GTO. the 2 years before that, 30k miles each in jetta TDI, 48 mpg. i figure all those miles in the TDI can be balanced by some tire-squealing ~20mpg driving in the GTO.
    vive la mpg difference!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,137
    i think 'vcs' is a contributor to the horsepower escalation.
    you get to advirtize it, although you can't really use it.
    kind of watching the olympics while surfing.
    saw a chevy commercial. corvette; 505 hp! :surprise:
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    you: you get to advirtize it, although you can't really use it.

    me: I use the power of my car more often than the ABS feature of my brakes. I hardly ever have the traction control engage. I've never used the airbags in any car, but yet I still buy them; just in case I might need them. Just because you do not use features everyday, does not mean they are not useful at times.

    The more situations in life you are prepared for by having more capabilities, the better off you will be.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Having seen some of the Car show reviews lately, have you noticed the increase in hp? Probably most of us have seen the Challenger and Camaro concepts, but what about the more immediate introductions.

    Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - incease of 70 hp to 520.
    2007 Lambo Gallardo - increase to 550hp.
    Dodge Calibre (replacing Dodge Neon) - hp up to 300.
    RAV4 - V6 with 268hp.
    Nissan (Skyline) GTR - 450hp
    Camry (4 cyl Hybrid) - about 200hp

    Each manufacturer is trying to outdo the other.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,339
    Yes, they tend to be so similar in appearance and function any more that the only real attention grabber is that extra 3hp on the competitor! :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I mean how many of the slo mo advocates would buy a Honda Civic because it advertised it has less hp than the past model year??? :)

    If so, the Honda Insight is literally dying on the vine! (70 hp)

    In fact the environmental types have almost succeeded in banning the 90 hp VW TDI. :(

    So in fact this hp issue is both a bogus and strawman issue!!
  • nitromaxnitromax Member Posts: 640
    That's what I've been talking about.

    Even though the RAV4 only has 268HP, that little SUV hardly has the frame size to support that kind of power. I wouldn't want to drop the hammer on that while going around a corner.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The more situations in life you are prepared for by having more capabilities, the better off you will be.

    Good point. I bought my 99 Suburban with 4WD. I only used it once in the 7 years I owned it. We were in a freak snow storm in the Sierras. A logging truck slid across the road and the only way around him was using 4WD. I never used any of the other aforementioned, very expensive safety features.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    I've had my electronic stability control engage at least twice.

    But then, my apartment's parking lot turns into a complete sheet of ice when it snows.

    And I'll definitely attest that it works really, really, really well (getting the tires that slip to regain traction).
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,339
    how many... would buy a Honda Civic because it advertised it has less hp than the past model year?

    Not a "slo mo" advocate here, nor am I directing this at any particular poster here, but why would anyone buy one simply on the grounds it had more or less horsepower? I am sure there are those consumers who do, but good grief; that is simply ignorant consumerism there. Oops.... did I just describe ~90% of the car-buying public?

    Sure, informed car buyers might purchase a new model with more HP (and numerous the other features) than a previous model. But, did that buyer make the purchase primarily due to the typically modest HP increase or because the whole package best fit the current need?

    HP is part of the package; isolating it dissolves its utility (which has been indirectly stated by numerous posters time and time again).
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Not a "slo mo" advocate here, nor am I directing this at any particular poster here, but why would anyone buy one simply on the grounds it had more or less horsepower? I am sure there are those consumers who do, but good grief; that is simply ignorant consumerism there.

    Generally speaking, HP = improved performance and responsiveness, qualities that many drivers do value and want. In isolation, it may not mean much, but as a form of automotive shorthand, it's a useful factoid.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    you: but why would anyone buy one simply on the grounds it had more or less horsepower?

    me: I think we all agree. More power is usually bundled with other performance enhancements, which are desireable; though not all can afford them, and thus lesser choices are made.

    you: simply ignorant consumerism there. Oops.... did I just describe ~90% of the car-buying public?

    me: I assume you're talking about new car buyers, which is what drives what manufacturers are building. The used car buyer can own choose from what was already built, and is not going to influence the manufacturer much (if at all).

    So who are the people buying new cars? I would guess their income is higher than lower. And though there are many exceptions and overlap, the higher income people are going to be better educated and/or intelligent. Thus the more successful and intelligent people are the new car buyers. So then we all must be ignorant, with only a few brilliant exceptions (like us)? ;)

    you: But, did that buyer make the purchase primarily due to the typically modest HP increase.

    me: well I remember an '85 LeBaron I had that was maybe 100hp; a similar car today has 2X that power. So those modest increases have added up; like compounded interest.

    In general, I want my car to be faster, safer, and travel over more terrain; I want the jet I fly on to have Mach-speed and be safer, and want my TV to project life-like 3-D holograms. I want everything to continue to get better. In fact forget about that jet; I want the sort of power (a nuclear battery?) in my vehicle - to travel on land, water, or in the air. Let's keep the advances coming.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,339
    So who are the people buying new cars? I would guess their income is higher than lower. And though there are many exceptions and overlap, the higher income people are going to be better educated and/or intelligent. Thus the more successful and intelligent people are the new car buyers. So then we all must be ignorant, with only a few brilliant exceptions (like us)?

    :surprise: That is quite a leap of faith, there! If nothing else, education/intelligence/income has nothing to do with being a well-informed car buyer. It takes a bit of effort for that. Wealthier people tend to make more informed buying decisions (which is often the reason they have the wealth), but higher income often means nothing more than being able to make uninformed decisions that cost more. ;)

    I want everything to continue to get better.... Let's keep the advances coming.

    Point well taken, and I agree. With today's car, HP can be an indicator of other "beefed up" qualities also packaged on the car. I do not see many auto advertisements any more, but those I do tend to tout HP and standard (or optional) safety features, so there is somewhat of a duality there that caters to what matters most to consumers. I am fine with increases in HP; every facet of autmobiles improves by leaps and bounds on an almost yearly basis (other than the ease and cost of repairing them!). I will take the increased HP if that is what is offered on my next purchase, but the whole package is what will sell the car, not a gross HP # stuck on the window.

    All of that said, I certainly recognize that I am *not* the customer that drives technology. I appreciate new technology at least as much as the next person, but I also have the patience to wait for it to fit into my lifestyle rather than fitting my lifestyle into it. For example (getting back to televisions!), I have a 32" Trinitron that was manufactured back in... hmm.... 1996? I purchased it in '01, back when flatscreens were making their debut in earnest. When that set goes defunct, I will replace it with new technology (whatever that may be whenever it may be), but in the meantime it serves the exact same purpose. I could buy a new one, but it just is not that important to my lifestyle. Eh.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I have posted in the past that I see no incongruity in both existing side by side. Actually what intriques me about the 90 hp vehicle is its ability to cruise all day (10-12 hours for those that want a yardstick) at whatever speeds and get 48-52 mpg!! It can be done in the 385 hp vehicle but gets between 26-30 mpg and HAS TO stop at the 450-540 mile mark vs 650-738 mile mark.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,339
    Hahah.... ruking, I would take either one of those ranges! Of course, either would require a new vehicle for me, so might as well go with the 650 mark. Oh, wait, I would have to buy a VW to get that. Darn the diesel regulations.....

    90hp diesel, again, is not the same animal as 385 hp gas. You almost have to get that much of a difference between them to even start comparing them directly. The benefits to diesel are so much greater than gasoline. Change scares people - it takes a lot of courage to change.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I feel the manufacturers have once again allowed HP to get way out of hand in the family sedan arena. How much HP do you need for a 4 door vehicle that hauls your family around? 300HP? 500HP? 1000HP?.. The auto writers/reviewers sure don't help this much either. They push that car A has 240HP, Car B has 268HP so it must be "better". Lets get back to basics of MPG, comfort, safety, value, reliability, refinement... please.... :sick:
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    manufacturers are in the business of building what people want to buy. if people are buying 450 hp family-haulers like SRT8, the manufacturers will keep building em. beautiful thing.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The fact of the matter one of the drivers for this behavior is the brainwashing that has occurred the 0-60 mph metric.

    Hard to get back to what you are saying of people are not actually "BUYING IT".
  • albert6albert6 Member Posts: 52
    You discount the influence of advertising. The most effective advertising creates demand. Best examples: Coke and Pepsi. They are carbonated sugar water with carmel coloring and other additives. Did anyone -demand- those characteristics before they existed?

    The automakers are looking to create demand for the autos that have the highest profit margins.

    Can advertising drive people to buy? Thankfully, not yet. But they do seem to spend money on it and would not do so if it did not work at all.
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    When I was looking for a second car to use with my Cadillac Deville I considered a Chrysler 300C, nice looks and great power stats. I ended up buying a Lincoln Town Car with a much lower power rating. The Lincoln having about 100 HP less than the
    300C has plenty of power to spare and in my opinion looks as nice as the 300C. The Lincoln also has close to 40 horsepower less than the Deville but once again the Lincoln
    has more than adequate power for doing things like entering freeways and two lane road passing. Not to mention that I paid between 12 and 15 thousand dollars less for the Lincoln of similar age, miles and trim level. My point is that the current competition for power stats is way over done and with the current fuel prices it may turn out that smaller engines will become even more popular. Needless to say that neither the Deville or Towncar have small engines but they are nowhere near as large or powerful as the 300C or SRT.
  • albert6albert6 Member Posts: 52
    Just an example of where things could go... 1001HP, and a top speed of 250mph+. It seems to drain the fuel tank in about 13 minutes at speed. I need to look it up again, but it rejects in the neighborhood of 2-10kWatts in heat via the radiator.

    0-60 2.5 seconds, calculated. It's 4 wheel drive.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron_16.4
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It's about as pointless as an SRT10. The SRT10 is even more pointless than the Veyron.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    the SRT10 may be pointless but it is also stupendous!
    i enjoy the rare times when i see one on the road.
    along the lines of pointless-horsepower/torque,
    i saw a Jeep V8 SXT grand-cherokee a couple days ago.
    I LIKE! same with VW 2-a-reg V10 TDI.

    also i enjoyed the one time i saw an "international CXT" on the highway - i gave the driver a thumbs-up to contrast with that other finger he probably saw from other drivers.
    at least the CXT is a diesel! :)

    i don't think i'll ever enjoy any of these super-powered SUV/pickups enough to buy one however! i'm actually a truck-hater. trucks only interest me when they have crazy-powerful or diesel engine and/or at least 7-adult-passenger-capacity.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    I think one of the best group of judges of whether a car is fun (and that's a very, very important aspect of life) is kids. Why? They have none of these boring, practical mindsets that some adults seem to get. Go ask some kids say age 7 - 14 what are the coolest cars, and you'll get the best answers. Kids will like powerful/fast/all-terrain/sleek vehicles. Or in some cases just quirky.

    When I was a kid I loved VW Beetles, Roadrunners, Chargers, Vettes, Trans Ams, Mustangs, and in racing Porsches and Chapparals.

    And the Viper will be a car kids love. The wind, noise, acceleration can be like a roller coaster, and most of us love roller coasters. And for adults, there is a definite advantage in driving an SRT10 over a Camry if trying to attract the opposite sex.

    And I sure hope more people realize the speed limits in this country are set based on the capabilities of a 1960's garbage truck being able to negotiate the road safely. People are driving 10-20 mph over the limits regularly now and there has been no increase in fatalities per million miles driven. The only reason I see for the current speed limits is so police can collect revenue for the government, and more onerously - have a reason to pull over any car or people THEY DON"T LIKE THE LOOKS OF. Low speed limits are a great excuse for Big Brother to check you out.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "They have none of these boring, practical mindsets that some adults seem to get. Go ask some kids say age 7 - 14 what are the coolest cars"

    You are right, and until the kids drive and pay for their own gas they have no clue. Now that my kids drive and pay for their gas, they have a totally different mindset about what is hot and what is expensive. They were even thinking about selling their SUV to get a 4 cyl car.

    /ot Thankfully the police are out there collecting revenue from speeding tickets. My property taxes went down because of the additional revenue from speeding tickets. Speeders keep up the good work.
  • vchiuvchiu Member Posts: 564
    quote :/ot Thankfully the police are out there collecting revenue from speeding tickets. My property taxes went down because of the additional revenue from speeding tickets. Speeders keep up the good work.

    Well if the police issued tickets for tailgating/ phoning+driving / Lane discipline / alcohol / drugs+driving as frantically as for speeding, I am pretty sure your local taxes could even disappear. A little considered side effect would be a real drop of road casualties....
    But what the heck : isn't it easier to collect money with a politically correct radar gun than anything else?
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