But alas... it was due to a metal blade somehow puncturing the gas tank (freak accident or someone hates me???). Evidence leaned toward freak accident as the sheared off knife blade was in the center of the tank at the center of the vehicle, and it sits too low to the ground for someone to have generated the force necessary to have done that.
Anyway, gas was leaking out slowing dripping onto the ground (very slowly), and although the car started, it didn't get very far before the computer decided air in the gas tank was a bad thing and shut itself down.
Therefore, I've still yet to tow something that didn't come from the Big 3 that was the vehicle's fault, and not from some outside influence as was the case with my A3.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Our '93 Accord was the champ for getting piggy back rides to the dealer/service centers. Brake master cylinder, Clutch master cylinder, main fuel relay, radiator, starter, and ignition switch (all within 8 years of new and less than 100k miles - more stuff after that but jeez that doesn't count) It bested such notable greats as the '89 Grand Caravan (2 rides, 1 trans, one steering rack), a '96 Contour (2 rides, both waterpumps - plastic impellers apparently fail on Fords just like they did in E36 BMWs), an '83 Reliant and a '76 Nova. Actually, I don't think the Nova was on a hook for anything, ever. I don't think any of the current rides have been on a hook at all. That doesn't mean they haven't been back to the dealer or service bay; it just means they didn't leave me stranded somewhere too.
JD Power disputes your statements. They claim that the initial quality is a good indicator of long term reliability. You are at the farthest extreme from them on this issue. You might be what's called an outlyer.
JD Power disputes your statements. They claim that the initial quality is a good indicator of long term reliability. You are at the farthest extreme from them on this issue. You might be what's called an outlyer.
I'd agree with smarty on this one. Can you point to where JD Power seems to feel that an IQS result is predictive of longer term reliability?
Yeah, and I'm going to believe what JD Power tells me, when all these cars are brand spankin new, in the prime of their life cycle, are all under factory warranty, when JD Power does not even look pass any of these cars in reliability after the first 3 years, c-mon give me a break :sick:
They ranked Buick below Chevrolet in initial quality, how the heck does that make any sense when Buick has fewer models and is supped to be a entry luxury level, while Chevy is mainstream?
You believing every word they say puts you as an outlyer
You can’t hide from quality problems. Witness the results of the Initial Quality Study released today by J.D. Power. Toyota’s sudden-acceleration crisis—which forced the once-heralded carmaker to recall more than 8 million vehicles over the past year—resulted in its worst-ever performance in the survey. Toyota dropped from sixth place last year to 21st. Consumers complained in the survey about brake and floormat problems, which is what the recalls were mostly about. Last year, Toyota brand vehicles had 101 problems per 100 vehicles. This year, it rose to 117. No big surprise given the massive number of cars recalled.You
What was more surprising is how poorly General Motors did. Cadillac tumbled from third place with 91 problems to a tie for 12th place with 111 problems. Chevrolet went from ninth to 12th, falling below the industry average. GMC went from 18th to 25th. Of GM’s four brands, only Buick improved. The survey tracks complaints during the first 90 days that a consumer owned the car. The problems can be anything from a mechanical breakdown to, say, too much wind noise to mundane things like the driver griping about the size of the cupholders.
What’s worrisome for GM is that the culprit happens to be the company’s newest models. :lemon:
I sure haven't seen any correlation proven between initial quality and longer term reliability. You always have to be careful with these stats and their ground rules. For instance, I believe the JD Powers IQS is based on events (or required visits back to the dealer). During the most recent evaluation period Toyota had the pedal recall which would certainly seem to skew their result. I expect Toyota will show a big improvement the next time (and possibly another distorted stat of "most improved"). Same probably goes for Buick behind Chevy since Buick has a higher all new vehicle percentage with the new LaCrosse (they only have what 4 vehicles for 2010?).
But the mean you are trying to relate is not the median of auto manufacturers that are in the better half of manufacturers, which is what JD's list is.
You are trying to change apples into oranges!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
But the mean you are trying to relate is not the median of auto manufacturers that are in the better half of manufacturers, which is what JD's list is.
I'm not trying to change their list. I am noting an interpretation of it. There are hundreds of possible conclusions that can be drawn from the data. Does it really upset you that I have an interpretation that paints Chevy in a good light?
You are trying to change apples into oranges!
If apples were 109's and oranges were 111's, then yes. What would a golfer's score climb if that was the difference in his drive...109 vs 111 yds? to you that difference is apples and oranges and I am in the minority for not agreeing?
Only 3% of the population can afford to and gets a new car in the US each year. By your logic, most of those 9 million people buy a crappy car from the lower half of the manufacturers, because the bulk of the volume of vehicles are from manufacturers rated higher than 109 problems per hundred cars. Only one in a hundred of us actually only get a decent car by your standards. So that makes 99% of our country crappy or worse car buyers or unable to even buy one. In your eyes, almost everybody is a loser.
Excuse me for saying that the median car is a good one.
What is your contribution to the betterment of all cars now being made?
J.D. Power and Associates surveyed new-car buyers after they'd owned their vehicles for 90 days and asked them about problems or complaints with their vehicles. Initial quality has proven to be a good predictor of long term dependability, according to J.D. Power.
OK, let me put it this way: Most owners complained more about GM than most other brands and their are complaining more.
Get It? No?
Well, then, most GM customers are more sorry than most customers of other brands that they purchased their particular GM model than the owners of the other brands models and more complained about GM this year than last.
At the end of the day on the last minute, GM is getting worse not batter.
>"J.D. Power and Associates surveyed new-car buyers after they'd owned their vehicles for 90 days and asked them about problems or complaints with their vehicles. Initial quality has proven to be a good predictor of long term dependability, according to J.D. Power"
Well...That should settle it! J.D. Power says their rag and method of evaluation is a good predictor of long tern dependability. So those that constantly go back and forth to the dealer with their "Best" initial quality vehicles can feel that, even though it is broke after 90 days, it was the best when they drove it away from the dealer.
Amazing how some can believe a report that tracks vehicles for a short period of time, JDP, and yet not believe one that tracks them for years, CR.
Recon it is simply a case of who we are pulling for. Even a sports team that rarely gets above the bottom 3 still have their fans.
Our Church team has perfect record and we cheer them on. They have lost every game this year. Perfect record! Would be nice if they could win one, so we just keep hoping.
oh well as long as CNN says it does I guess we all need to believe everything a news organization says! c-mon, don't be naive!
yeap, a cup holder not working properly during the first 90 days is an excellent indicator of what major mechanical, electronic, or technical malfunctions repairs might happen at 4, 5, and 6+ years old!
its quite interesting how you still haven't addressed how initial quality of Buick can be lower then Chevrolet? makes no sense what so ever or how Subaru can be ranked so low for initial quality but then be ranked so high for overall dependability/reliability?
you can't so you believe anything JD Power tells you when their results escape logic in several instances!
You are basically saying that the world should ignore JD Powers and only read CR for their info. I will continue to ignore CR. Many times they have been wrong or biased. When you have forced JD Powers out of business, you will finally be right.
I would say its quite idiotic to take a single source of information as fact....especially, when there are multiple sources available, each with their own unique point-of-view on the subject.
J.D. Power and Associates surveyed new-car buyers after they'd owned their vehicles for 90 days and asked them about problems or complaints with their vehicles. Initial quality has proven to be a good predictor of long term dependability, according to J.D. Power.
Want a quick example of why relying solely upon that viewpoint isn't very accurate?
Think... Chevrolet Vega.
Its "revolutionary" sleeveless cylinder aluminum engine design saved GM $8 per engine manufacturing costs at the time. The car was a relative hit when it was new....that is, until the engine started burning oil like a steam turbine goes through steam (and the passengers needed to stay current on their tetanus shots due to the excessive body rust after 2 years).
Certainly, the first 90 days of ownership "satisfaction" were nowhere indicative of the long-term reliability opinion of the automobile.
I know. I had a Pontiac Astre (the Pontiac version of the Vega).
I know. I had a Pontiac Astre (the Pontiac version of the Vega).
I've told the story a number of times where I was a poor college student in 1974. I bought a used '66 VW Bug to commute to the big U. My "rich" friend had worked at MickeyD's for two years in late HS and paid CASH for a brand new 1974 Vega GT. Nice looking and driving car. We carpooled to big U together most days, alternating the Vega and my old bug. Well, two years later he had big HOLES at the bottoms of the front and rear windows of his Vega (this in no-snow country). Then at about 50K his engine finally went. I just kept driving my rust-free 11-year old VW Bug, and finally sold it with 235K on it.
>"You are basically saying that the world should ignore JD Powers and only read CR for their info."
Not at all. I think they both have their place.
J.D. Powers is a reasonably good indicator of how well a vehicle appears to be put together when it comes off the show room floor, as well as its durability for the 1st 90 days of ownership. Generally speaking, people are still in love with their new vehicle for several months, until the "NEW" wears off. Many are hesitant to admit they made a poor choice.
Personally, if I went against good judgment and "Voted" with my money to get a new Colorado pickup, I might be hesitant to admit that when I took it back within the first 90 days with a laundry list of problems, that there was actually a "LIST" for them to fix. And might count it as ONE visit. Because in my heart of hearts I wasn't really surprised. But didn't want to admit that I had deliberately bought a vehicle that was known to be problematic.
In the other hand, when I took my 09 Ridgeline back with a window that slipped out of its tracks and wouldn't roll up all the way, I was really "Pissed" because Hondas aren't supposed to do that. So that would put the Honda and Chevy product on the same page as far as JDP is concerned.
CR tracks vehicles for longer. They are indicators of how well various vehicles hold up over the longer haul, Maybe even until they are paid for. Keeping in mind that many car loans extend to 5 years and longer. After a year or so the "NEW" has worn off and happiness continues, or disgust sets in. People are more willing to report the truth.
I wasn't happy when the Toyota GAS PEDAL problem came to light, mainly because with their reputation of reliability, I felt a bit betrayed. On the other hand when my mother's 95 Explorer was recalled a few months ago for a possible fire danger under the hood, I wasn't surprised. Note: Since they recalled her 15 year old Explorer, surely there must have been others recalled , yet I saw absolutely nothing on the news about it. But the news certainly covered the Toyota problem, :confuse: Me thinks the reason for that is because for for Toyota to have such a massive recall is truly news. With UAW products is it more common place and not news worthy.
So we can say that both our Ridgeline and Rav4 had a problem as would be reported to JDP as initial quality problems. Neither has been back for anything other than routine service. And that would fall more into the CR mode of reporting.
Well, your Church team has a few thing on their side. They are consistent and they have to be having fun or they would have given up by now.
GM, on the other hand, found suckers in a Government bailout and keeps attracting more suckers everyday!
They laugh all the way to the bank because it doesn't matter if they fail again. The CR facts must really hurt, however. Their market share is lower than.... :lemon:
J.D. Powers is a reasonably good indicator of how well a vehicle appears to be put together when it comes off the show room floor, as well as its durability for the 1st 90 days of ownership. Generally speaking, people are still in love with their new vehicle for several months, until the "NEW" wears off. Many are hesitant to admit they made a poor choice.
Personally, if I went against good judgment and "Voted" with my money to get a new Colorado pickup, I might be hesitant to admit that when I took it back within the first 90 days with a laundry list of problems, that there was actually a "LIST" for them to fix. And might count it as ONE visit. Because in my heart of hearts I wasn't really surprised. But didn't want to admit that I had deliberately bought a vehicle that was known to be problematic.
Excellent points.
Imagine if we rated new marriages in a similar way as JDP does automobiles.
With the honeymoon not over at the end of 90 days (at least, for the majority of marriages), does anyone really think this statistic would be a decent predictor of the marriage survivability and longevity at 2,3,4...7 years?
Like you, I do think JDP has importance, as I do CR. But, one must know the limitations within the respective rating systems.
I am also suspicious of CR, simply because it isn't a true representative sample of auto owners (ie, one must be a CR "member" in order to rate a vehicle, and CR members may or may not not be representative of the actual owner base). However, its probably the closest thing to a "true" representative base currently available.
And, we should always be careful of reading too much into surveys.
A good example... Congress. It currently has a satisfaction rating in the teens, yet the average satisfaction rating for individual Congressional members by their constituents is around 40%. SO, your guy is still a loser, just not as big a loser as all the others. But, clearly, the numbers don't jibe.
And, to demonstrate the potential bias in the surveyed base, imaging Congress rating itself. I feel safe saying they would most likely rate themselves higher than the teens, as the general public rates them.
That's why I suggest one look at multiple sources when evaluating a product for purchase. JDP, CR, user groups, dedicated web-blogs to the product/company, etc.
"......In the other hand, when I took my 09 Ridgeline back with a window that slipped out of its tracks and wouldn't roll up all the way, I was really "Pissed" because Hondas aren't supposed to do that. So that would put the Honda and Chevy product on the same page as far as JDP is concerned."
Not true. When I filled out my survey, they wanted you to list the individual "problems" and explain. They also wanted to know how much of an inconvenience each problem was. So, I mentioned the 3 "problems" I had, yet it only went to the dealer once. So they DO count it as 3 separate problems. Now, I agree that while my 3 problems were very minor in nature, they do count equally as a blown engine, which is wrong to do. Yet, according to CR a model could conceivably have a problem spot with bad engines or trannys, yet still be "Better than average" if all the other areas they rate are fine.
It seems to me that no ONE survey is above reproach.
They send out questionnaires to their readers, who may or may not represent owners of each car, and those readers who opened the questionnaire, if they are of mind to do so, return the questionnaires filled out in some way. CR then assembles however many questionnaires they get or don't get on a particular model and apply their "magic" to it and have an opinion.
Because their respondents are chosen randomly, they have a statistically meaninful set of data.
Only if the responses are returned in the same statistical formula as they were mailed. And, completed correctly by all respondents. If a higher % of, say, respondents earning $200K return the completed questionaire than the ones making < $35, skewing of results is a real possibility, as the cars owned by the 2 groups are probably optioned very differently..
That may or may not be the case.
A bit of a nit-picking detail, but nevertheless...true. But, it may be the best that can be done, given the environment.
>Only if the responses are returned in the same statistical formula as they were mailed
They follow up to attempt to obtain responses from nonrespondees. That's something CR doesn't do, does it? There also are statistical corrections that can be made for those nonrespondents.
In this day and age of known data about everyone, they already know personal information about the people to whom the surveys are going; that makes it easier.
Because their respondents are chosen randomly, they have a statistically meaninful set of data.
I don't consider a 3 year survey meaningful since no manufacturer has a warranty shorter then that. Also, how exactly does JD Powers get a random sample? Do they put a gun to everyone's head that they contact and force them to tell the truth?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
We need to find SOMEONE who favors GM over the Asian brands...ANYONE OUT THERE? (Besides Lemko). Actually, Lemon Company would be a great name to replace General Motors...Lem Ko for short! :lemon:
CR is not perfect but none of the rags are. That's why market share and sales are a big part of the equation as far as quality, dependability and satisfaction results. You already see the track record of the Big 3 and the CR surveys track that pretty close, wouldn't you say?
GM = Blue Ford = Orange Toyota = Green Honda = Grey Chrysler = Red
They follow up to attempt to obtain responses from nonrespondees. That's something CR doesn't do, does it?
I don't know. I don't subscribe to CR.
There also are statistical corrections that can be made for those nonrespondents.
That sounds very good if you say it real fast. Exactly what are these "statistical corrections" that can be made for the nonrespondents?
If you don't have a response, its a guess. Simple as that. You have no idea why they didn't respond, only that they didn't respond.
In this day and age of known data about everyone, they already know personal information about the people to whom the surveys are going; that makes it easier.
Really? Exactly what/how much personal information does JDP have on the folks it polls? And, you know this how?
Personally, when I buy a car, I pay cash. Other than knowing I have insurance and a valid DL, my bank account number, and that the account had enough money to cover the check, what financial and personal info does JDP have on me? How did it get the info? Does it have my medical history? Why or why not?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but simply thinking JDP or any other survey concern might have extensive info on its polled base is pretty presumptive, IMO.
IMHO a random survey gets you a random result. The sample size and population must be stratified by relevant criteria and parameters to the analysis. I'm not sure that's done on either JDP or CR. So to have any relevancy they must have a large sample size in order to hope to end up with something similar to the population distribution (e.g if 80% of Camry buyers chose an LE, 15% and XLE and 5% a stripper base model, the larger the sample input the more likely the models they receive input on will fall somewhere near that breakout, same is true on a higher level basis like Camry, Corolla, Yaris). Stratifying the sample by model breakout allows a more accurate result with a much smaller survey input. That said, I still think the JDP IQS is by event so the Toyota data is skewed by the recent recalls and ends up looking worse than it really is. Here's another sanity check, if the Camry was that bad, by now word of mouth would be killing their sales, but I believe the Camry is still easily the largest selling car in its segment. Not defending the Camry, there are plenty of great competitors right now, but just trying to offset the Toyota bashing a bit. Moving on to GM, I think you need to give Ruess and crew a couple of years before you can draw a solid conclusion on whether they turn it around. I'm maybe a bit more positive on them than some, but Ford jumped out to a wide spread by being more proactive and GM is just changing its management around, so deciding on today's data may be a bit premature.
This shows that the big 5 had 84% of the market share in 2000. It shows that they now have only 70% between all top 5. That is a 14% drop across all 5. Toyota picked up 7%. Honda picked up 3%. 'Other' makes got a 14% increase. S. Koreans? The D3 lost 24% of market share. Since the population (and total vehicle volumes) went up 10%, that takes away 70% of the sting for the top 5's lost share.
The Pres wants another $146 Billion stimulus pkg for extended unemployment benefits. Isn't it awesome to be shifting sales to non US makes?
I can see it from my driveway. One neighbor flies the Japanese Empire flag and has two Hondas. My other neighbor has 2 Hondas. My other neighbor has a Honda, a BMW, and a Tahoe. My other neighbor has a Kia. Then a Toyota and a VW at another. There is one neighbor with a Buick and a Chevy. I almost balance it all out with Chev, Buick, Chev, Ford, Chev and GMC. 2 out of 7 families sticking with American isn't gonna turn it around, hence the stimulus pkg proposal. After that stimulus, we will need another. Then another.
The Pres wants another $146 Billion stimulus pkg for extended unemployment benefits. Isn't it awesome to be shifting sales to non US makes?
What does that mean? Best that I can figure is an implication that people on extended unemployment benefits will use that money to buy "non US makes". But that makes no sense. People on unemployment buying cars??? No one would believe that. So what DOES it mean?
Like it or not, the D-3 we grew up with (if you are 50 or older) is gone, and its never coming back. No more will the UAW be able to command unfunded exorbitant benefit packages for its current and retired members.... and no longer can the car companies pass along its unfunded liabilities to the future generations.
This shouldn't be any surprise. Anyone who has done the basic minimum of reading about the economy during the last 30 years has seen this one coming.
Its eeriely similar to what the US has done as a country, primarily since the 1970's.... Paying current citizens benefits that will be paid for by future generations. The big difference? The US government can pay by inflating the money supply (something I feel sure the D-3 would do, if they could).
Just like our elected representatives, these folks (D-3 management) have taken the really big bucks to kick the decision "can" forward as long as possible, refusing to deal with the issue until it was forced upon them.
But, I'll ask this question once more.
Which is better for the country... Buying a Hyundai built in GA or a Chevrolet Aveo built in South Korea? Who benefits from each situation?
>"Which is better for the country... Buying a Hyundai built in GA or a Chevrolet Aveo built in South Korea? Who benefits from each situation? "
Good question with an obvious answer for the average or above average intelligence. But just for fun:
Hmmm...! A mind twister. :confuse:
Oh! I know, I know ! ! ! :
As an idle UAW worker drawing indefinite unemployment from the tax payer, I want the Aveo to win. Boost the bottom line for my GM flag and more compensation for the GM executives. Because they love me. I especially love the cars my company turns out in Mexico and Canada. It is good for the economy. More money for the GM flag.
But wait! Those silly red necks working at Hyundai starvation wages and only earning what the job is worth, are still tax payers and help supply more tax dollars for me to live on. And the businesses that went up around their plant to support them are all earning a living and paying more taxes.
But I really feel better seeing a "Chevrolet" Aveo on the road than one of those foreign Hyundai cars. Cause I'm not concerned about American workers other than myself. I don't care what flag flies over the Aveo plant or which workers are being paid to assemble them. I'm not sure if Hyundai or Suzuki is the daddy of the Aveo and I don't care. I just want a GM label on them as they go down the road or sit on the side of it. (Sarcasm intended)
As an intelligent member of congress I prefer the Chevrolet logo on that car, because I need that union guy's vote. Realizing that my sucking up to the present administration might cost me my job. I'm thinking that making all those un documented folks "citizens" might be a good idea too! (more sarcasm intended)
Nobody can track them longer than me! I've had my 1989 Cadillac Brougham for over 21 years and it's still holding up admirably. My wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse, purchased new in March 2005, has yet to experience an unscheduled maintenance event. Heck, the "NEW" has yet to wear off my 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance and I had it for 3 years.
At this rate, you'll have formerly productive people permanently on the dole. I guess they can feel proud when they drive their Honda or Toyota down to the food pantry to get free government cheese!
Buying a Chevrolet built in Flint, Michigan would be the best choice! I would buy neither a Hyundai built in GA nor a Chevrolet Aveo built in South Korea.
>"Nobody can track them longer than me! I've had my 1989 Cadillac Brougham for over 21 years and it's still holding up admirably."
I can!
I've had my '78 Chevy G20 Beauville Sports Wagon (Van) a bit longer than that, and it is still running. The only time it rattles is when it is moving. The only time I have to spend money on it is when I decide I want it to start up and move next time I need it.
With it's 3rd drive train I would not hesitate for a moment to drive it the 6 miles to HD or Lowes. But I do take the cell phone, just in case!
And the 8-9 MPG, local driving, and oil slick where it is parked, is just icing on the cake. Love this truck!
Comments
Anyway, gas was leaking out slowing dripping onto the ground (very slowly), and although the car started, it didn't get very far before the computer decided air in the gas tank was a bad thing and shut itself down.
Therefore, I've still yet to tow something that didn't come from the Big 3 that was the vehicle's fault, and not from some outside influence as was the case with my A3.
I don't think any of the current rides have been on a hook at all. That doesn't mean they haven't been back to the dealer or service bay; it just means they didn't leave me stranded somewhere too.
I'd agree with smarty on this one. Can you point to where JD Power seems to feel that an IQS result is predictive of longer term reliability?
They ranked Buick below Chevrolet in initial quality, how the heck does that make any sense when Buick has fewer models and is supped to be a entry luxury level, while Chevy is mainstream?
You believing every word they say puts you as an outlyer
You can’t hide from quality problems. Witness the results of the Initial Quality Study released today by J.D. Power. Toyota’s sudden-acceleration crisis—which forced the once-heralded carmaker to recall more than 8 million vehicles over the past year—resulted in its worst-ever performance in the survey. Toyota dropped from sixth place last year to 21st. Consumers complained in the survey about brake and floormat problems, which is what the recalls were mostly about. Last year, Toyota brand vehicles had 101 problems per 100 vehicles. This year, it rose to 117. No big surprise given the massive number of cars recalled.You
What was more surprising is how poorly General Motors did. Cadillac tumbled from third place with 91 problems to a tie for 12th place with 111 problems. Chevrolet went from ninth to 12th, falling below the industry average. GMC went from 18th to 25th. Of GM’s four brands, only Buick improved. The survey tracks complaints during the first 90 days that a consumer owned the car. The problems can be anything from a mechanical breakdown to, say, too much wind noise to mundane things like the driver griping about the size of the cupholders.
What’s worrisome for GM is that the culprit happens to be the company’s newest models. :lemon:
GM Tumbles - HEE HEE
Fat lot 'a good the bailout did!
May the best car win! I just LOVE it!
You don't even have to move your pinky to see GM failures...they keep on a' comin'!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
You are trying to change apples into oranges!
I'm not trying to change their list. I am noting an interpretation of it. There are hundreds of possible conclusions that can be drawn from the data. Does it really upset you that I have an interpretation that paints Chevy in a good light?
You are trying to change apples into oranges!
If apples were 109's and oranges were 111's, then yes.
What would a golfer's score climb if that was the difference in his drive...109 vs 111 yds? to you that difference is apples and oranges and I am in the minority for not agreeing?
Only 3% of the population can afford to and gets a new car in the US each year. By your logic, most of those 9 million people buy a crappy car from the lower half of the manufacturers, because the bulk of the volume of vehicles are from manufacturers rated higher than 109 problems per hundred cars. Only one in a hundred of us actually only get a decent car by your standards. So that makes 99% of our country crappy or worse car buyers or unable to even buy one. In your eyes, almost everybody is a loser.
Excuse me for saying that the median car is a good one.
What is your contribution to the betterment of all cars now being made?
Regards,
OW
J.D. Power and Associates surveyed new-car buyers after they'd owned their vehicles for 90 days and asked them about problems or complaints with their vehicles. Initial quality has proven to be a good predictor of long term dependability, according to J.D. Power.
Regards,
OW
NOTHING?
care to change your story?
Regards,
OW
Get It? No?
Well, then, most GM customers are more sorry than most customers of other brands that they purchased their particular GM model than the owners of the other brands models and more complained about GM this year than last.
At the end of the day on the last minute, GM is getting worse not batter.
May the Best Car Win! :lemon:
Regards,
Ow
Well...That should settle it! J.D. Power says their rag and method of evaluation is a good predictor of long tern dependability. So those that constantly go back and forth to the dealer with their "Best" initial quality vehicles can feel that, even though it is broke after 90 days, it was the best when they drove it away from the dealer.
Amazing how some can believe a report that tracks vehicles for a short period of time, JDP, and yet not believe one that tracks them for years, CR.
Recon it is simply a case of who we are pulling for. Even a sports team that rarely gets above the bottom 3 still have their fans.
Our Church team has perfect record and we cheer them on. They have lost every game this year. Perfect record! Would be nice if they could win one, so we just keep hoping.
Kind of like GM fans.
Kip
yeap, a cup holder not working properly during the first 90 days is an excellent indicator of what major mechanical, electronic, or technical malfunctions repairs might happen at 4, 5, and 6+ years old!
its quite interesting how you still haven't addressed how initial quality of Buick can be lower then Chevrolet? makes no sense what so ever or how Subaru can be ranked so low for initial quality but then be ranked so high for overall dependability/reliability?
you can't so you believe anything JD Power tells you when their results escape logic in several instances!
No source is absolutely correct 100% of the time.
"There is an exception to every rule... including this one."
Beware of speaking in absolutes! :shades:
Can anyone spell...U-A-W???
Want a quick example of why relying solely upon that viewpoint isn't very accurate?
Think... Chevrolet Vega.
Its "revolutionary" sleeveless cylinder aluminum engine design saved GM $8 per engine manufacturing costs at the time. The car was a relative hit when it was new....that is, until the engine started burning oil like a steam turbine goes through steam (and the passengers needed to stay current on their tetanus shots due to the excessive body rust after 2 years).
Certainly, the first 90 days of ownership "satisfaction" were nowhere indicative of the long-term reliability opinion of the automobile.
I know. I had a Pontiac Astre (the Pontiac version of the Vega).
http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/flowchart/2008/12/19/the-chevy-vega-the-worst-- - detroit-car-ever
I've told the story a number of times where I was a poor college student in 1974. I bought a used '66 VW Bug to commute to the big U. My "rich" friend had worked at MickeyD's for two years in late HS and paid CASH for a brand new 1974 Vega GT. Nice looking and driving car. We carpooled to big U together most days, alternating the Vega and my old bug. Well, two years later he had big HOLES at the bottoms of the front and rear windows of his Vega (this in no-snow country). Then at about 50K his engine finally went. I just kept driving my rust-free 11-year old VW Bug, and finally sold it with 235K on it.
Not at all. I think they both have their place.
J.D. Powers is a reasonably good indicator of how well a vehicle appears to be put together when it comes off the show room floor, as well as its durability for the 1st 90 days of ownership. Generally speaking, people are still in love with their new vehicle for several months, until the "NEW" wears off. Many are hesitant to admit they made a poor choice.
Personally, if I went against good judgment and "Voted" with my money to get a new Colorado pickup, I might be hesitant to admit that when I took it back within the first 90 days with a laundry list of problems, that there was actually a "LIST" for them to fix. And might count it as ONE visit. Because in my heart of hearts I wasn't really surprised. But didn't want to admit that I had deliberately bought a vehicle that was known to be problematic.
In the other hand, when I took my 09 Ridgeline back with a window that slipped out of its tracks and wouldn't roll up all the way, I was really "Pissed" because Hondas aren't supposed to do that. So that would put the Honda and Chevy product on the same page as far as JDP is concerned.
CR tracks vehicles for longer. They are indicators of how well various vehicles hold up over the longer haul, Maybe even until they are paid for. Keeping in mind that many car loans extend to 5 years and longer. After a year or so the "NEW" has worn off and happiness continues, or disgust sets in. People are more willing to report the truth.
I wasn't happy when the Toyota GAS PEDAL problem came to light, mainly because with their reputation of reliability, I felt a bit betrayed. On the other hand when my mother's 95 Explorer was recalled a few months ago for a possible fire danger under the hood, I wasn't surprised. Note: Since they recalled her 15 year old Explorer, surely there must have been others recalled , yet I saw absolutely nothing on the news about it. But the news certainly covered the Toyota problem, :confuse: Me thinks the reason for that is because for for Toyota to have such a massive recall is truly news. With UAW products is it more common place and not news worthy.
So we can say that both our Ridgeline and Rav4 had a problem as would be reported to JDP as initial quality problems. Neither has been back for anything other than routine service. And that would fall more into the CR mode of reporting.
Kip
GM, on the other hand, found suckers in a Government bailout and keeps attracting more suckers everyday!
They laugh all the way to the bank because it doesn't matter if they fail again. The CR facts must really hurt, however. Their market share is lower than.... :lemon:
At least there is reality somewhere. Go CR, GO!
Regards,
OW
J.D. Powers is a reasonably good indicator of how well a vehicle appears to be put together when it comes off the show room floor, as well as its durability for the 1st 90 days of ownership. Generally speaking, people are still in love with their new vehicle for several months, until the "NEW" wears off. Many are hesitant to admit they made a poor choice.
Personally, if I went against good judgment and "Voted" with my money to get a new Colorado pickup, I might be hesitant to admit that when I took it back within the first 90 days with a laundry list of problems, that there was actually a "LIST" for them to fix. And might count it as ONE visit. Because in my heart of hearts I wasn't really surprised. But didn't want to admit that I had deliberately bought a vehicle that was known to be problematic.
Excellent points.
Imagine if we rated new marriages in a similar way as JDP does automobiles.
With the honeymoon not over at the end of 90 days (at least, for the majority of marriages), does anyone really think this statistic would be a decent predictor of the marriage survivability and longevity at 2,3,4...7 years?
Like you, I do think JDP has importance, as I do CR. But, one must know the limitations within the respective rating systems.
I am also suspicious of CR, simply because it isn't a true representative sample of auto owners (ie, one must be a CR "member" in order to rate a vehicle, and CR members may or may not not be representative of the actual owner base). However, its probably the closest thing to a "true" representative base currently available.
And, we should always be careful of reading too much into surveys.
A good example... Congress. It currently has a satisfaction rating in the teens, yet the average satisfaction rating for individual Congressional members by their constituents is around 40%. SO, your guy is still a loser, just not as big a loser as all the others. But, clearly, the numbers don't jibe.
And, to demonstrate the potential bias in the surveyed base, imaging Congress rating itself. I feel safe saying they would most likely rate themselves higher than the teens, as the general public rates them.
That's why I suggest one look at multiple sources when evaluating a product for purchase. JDP, CR, user groups, dedicated web-blogs to the product/company, etc.
Not true. When I filled out my survey, they wanted you to list the individual "problems" and explain. They also wanted to know how much of an inconvenience each problem was. So, I mentioned the 3 "problems" I had, yet it only went to the dealer once. So they DO count it as 3 separate problems. Now, I agree that while my 3 problems were very minor in nature, they do count equally as a blown engine, which is wrong to do. Yet, according to CR a model could conceivably have a problem spot with bad engines or trannys, yet still be "Better than average" if all the other areas they rate are fine.
It seems to me that no ONE survey is above reproach.
CR does not track any vehicle.
They send out questionnaires to their readers, who may or may not represent owners of each car, and those readers who opened the questionnaire, if they are of mind to do so, return the questionnaires filled out in some way. CR then assembles however many questionnaires they get or don't get on a particular model and apply their "magic" to it and have an opinion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Because their respondents are chosen randomly, they have a statistically meaninful set of data.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Only if the responses are returned in the same statistical formula as they were mailed. And, completed correctly by all respondents. If a higher % of, say, respondents earning $200K return the completed questionaire than the ones making < $35, skewing of results is a real possibility, as the cars owned by the 2 groups are probably optioned very differently..
That may or may not be the case.
A bit of a nit-picking detail, but nevertheless...true. But, it may be the best that can be done, given the environment.
They follow up to attempt to obtain responses from nonrespondees. That's something CR doesn't do, does it? There also are statistical corrections that can be made for those nonrespondents.
In this day and age of known data about everyone, they already know personal information about the people to whom the surveys are going; that makes it easier.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't consider a 3 year survey meaningful since no manufacturer has a warranty shorter then that. Also, how exactly does JD Powers get a random sample? Do they put a gun to everyone's head that they contact and force them to tell the truth?
CR is not perfect but none of the rags are. That's why market share and sales are a big part of the equation as far as quality, dependability and satisfaction results. You already see the track record of the Big 3 and the CR surveys track that pretty close, wouldn't you say?
GM = Blue
Ford = Orange
Toyota = Green
Honda = Grey
Chrysler = Red
Regards,
OW
I don't know. I don't subscribe to CR.
There also are statistical corrections that can be made for those nonrespondents.
That sounds very good if you say it real fast. Exactly what are these "statistical corrections" that can be made for the nonrespondents?
If you don't have a response, its a guess. Simple as that. You have no idea why they didn't respond, only that they didn't respond.
In this day and age of known data about everyone, they already know personal information about the people to whom the surveys are going; that makes it easier.
Really? Exactly what/how much personal information does JDP have on the folks it polls? And, you know this how?
Personally, when I buy a car, I pay cash. Other than knowing I have insurance and a valid DL, my bank account number, and that the account had enough money to cover the check, what financial and personal info does JDP have on me? How did it get the info? Does it have my medical history? Why or why not?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but simply thinking JDP or any other survey concern might have extensive info on its polled base is pretty presumptive, IMO.
The Pres wants another $146 Billion stimulus pkg for extended unemployment benefits. Isn't it awesome to be shifting sales to non US makes?
I can see it from my driveway. One neighbor flies the Japanese Empire flag and has two Hondas. My other neighbor has 2 Hondas. My other neighbor has a Honda, a BMW, and a Tahoe. My other neighbor has a Kia. Then a Toyota and a VW at another. There is one neighbor with a Buick and a Chevy. I almost balance it all out with Chev, Buick, Chev, Ford, Chev and GMC. 2 out of 7 families sticking with American isn't gonna turn it around, hence the stimulus pkg proposal. After that stimulus, we will need another. Then another.
What does that mean? Best that I can figure is an implication that people on extended unemployment benefits will use that money to buy "non US makes". But that makes no sense. People on unemployment buying cars??? No one would believe that. So what DOES it mean?
:confuse:
This shouldn't be any surprise. Anyone who has done the basic minimum of reading about the economy during the last 30 years has seen this one coming.
Its eeriely similar to what the US has done as a country, primarily since the 1970's.... Paying current citizens benefits that will be paid for by future generations. The big difference? The US government can pay by inflating the money supply (something I feel sure the D-3 would do, if they could).
Just like our elected representatives, these folks (D-3 management) have taken the really big bucks to kick the decision "can" forward as long as possible, refusing to deal with the issue until it was forced upon them.
But, I'll ask this question once more.
Which is better for the country... Buying a Hyundai built in GA or a Chevrolet Aveo built in South Korea? Who benefits from each situation?
Good question with an obvious answer for the average or above average intelligence. But just for fun:
Hmmm...! A mind twister. :confuse:
Oh! I know, I know ! ! ! :
As an idle UAW worker drawing indefinite unemployment from the tax payer, I want the Aveo to win. Boost the bottom line for my GM flag and more compensation for the GM executives. Because they love me. I especially love the cars my company turns out in Mexico and Canada. It is good for the economy. More money for the GM flag.
But wait! Those silly red necks working at Hyundai starvation wages and only earning what the job is worth, are still tax payers and help supply more tax dollars for me to live on. And the businesses that went up around their plant to support them are all earning a living and paying more taxes.
But I really feel better seeing a "Chevrolet" Aveo on the road than one of those foreign Hyundai cars. Cause I'm not concerned about American workers other than myself. I don't care what flag flies over the Aveo plant or which workers are being paid to assemble them. I'm not sure if Hyundai or Suzuki is the daddy of the Aveo and I don't care. I just want a GM label on them as they go down the road or sit on the side of it.
(Sarcasm intended)
As an intelligent member of congress I prefer the Chevrolet logo on that car, because I need that union guy's vote. Realizing that my sucking up to the present administration might cost me my job. I'm thinking that making all those un documented folks "citizens" might be a good idea too!
(more sarcasm intended)
Kip
A piddly little POS deathtrap Aveo is one thing but a 50 thousand dollar vehicle?
Yowzah, give me a S.Carolina built BMW or an Alabama built Benz plz.
I can!
I've had my '78 Chevy G20 Beauville Sports Wagon (Van) a bit longer than that, and it is still running. The only time it rattles is when it is moving. The only time I have to spend money on it is when I decide I want it to start up and move next time I need it.
With it's 3rd drive train I would not hesitate for a moment to drive it the 6 miles to HD or Lowes. But I do take the cell phone, just in case!
And the 8-9 MPG, local driving, and oil slick where it is parked, is just icing on the cake. Love this truck!
Kip