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Toyota FJ Cruiser vs Jeep Wrangler



  • texasjeeptexasjeep Member Posts: 270
    Yes the 2 door Wrangler is discontinued for '07 and it sucks. I want a 2 door unlimited rubicon also. Especially if it came with a diesel. The Jeep wrangler board would probably be a better place for this discussion.
    Jeep Wrangler Board
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    Yes, for now anyway, it is true that there is no 2 Dr Unlimited Wrangler on the books, however that can of course change.

    The thing I'm really waiting for is the diesel wrangler Rubicon. The rumblings that it will come next year continue to get louder and louder. I Guess jeep wants to keep the coveted position of producuing the worlds 'most capable factory 4x4 in history' - we will see where this trail leads.
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    "The thing I'm really waiting for is the diesel wrangler Rubicon"

    Not sure about a diesel... is it a very high-torque motor? 4 or 6 cylinder? There are some gas stations around here that don't carry diesel, and if it's a turbo diesel, there are extra reliabilty and maintenence issues.

    "I Guess jeep wants to keep the coveted position of producuing the worlds 'most capable factory 4x4 in history"

    I think some of Jeep's management should be castrated, for doing the same to Jeep! The Liberty and the softening of the GC was bad enough, but the car-like Compass?!? That is NOT a Jeep! The fact ALL Jeeps were Trail Rated said something (though I wondered how they ever got a Liberty up the Rubicon trail - or what was left after they did). Now being a Jeep means nothing. Yes, there is a market for those vehicles, but it's already saturated for one, and they could have built and marketed it as a Dodge, and kept the Jeep brand undiluted.
  • daedae Member Posts: 143
    >Don't think the Rubicon has that technology available.

    It does. It is a standard equipment on JK on every trim, not just 07 Rubicon - so you do not have to buy 2 upgrade packages (or hack it yourself) to get it.

    It work just as well, if not better. And on Rubicon you will also get rear and front locker (and they DO work better in many situations) and and electronic sway bar disconnect (so you can disconnect it for articulation, and connect it back on an off-camber pitch). And you do get 4:1 transfer, standard MT tires, standard rocker protection..

    Off-road FJ with ATRAC vs cheaper Rubicon is a no contest in the favor of Rubicon.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    I agree they should be castrated for making the Compas! That thing is total garbage! It degrades the Jeep name to the same level as a Rav4 or Honda CRV.

    However unlike Honda, Jeep and Toyota still do build some capable 4x4s. The new Wrangler has only gotten better; pushing the 4x4 limits, however I do have my reservations about that minivan V6 - they need a diesel.

    You're right about the Liberty and Grand Cherokee, they are both watered down turds of what they once were. However thier countreparts from all the other makers are just as bad. Just thank God that the DaimlerChrysler morons in marketing didn't get ahold of the Wrangler too.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    You might now be able to say that Jeep makes a FULL LINE of SUV 4x4s: From the most capable that you can buy to the worst piece of road debris to ever block the trail! (al la Compass)
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    I saw a rubicon and an FJC go up the same rocky creek bed... tough climb. Neither made it easily... 20 minutes or so for each with a lot of spotting. Both made it though and there was no obvious off-road advantage for either.

    So, equal off-road and you can get Toyota quality vs. Jeep quality... maybe there is a contest?
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    I saw a Rubicon and an FJC go down 34 street in my city - They both made it. It doesn't meant they have the same 4x4 potential. If you have a novice behind the wheel of the more capable machine it certainly hurt's it's perceived performance.
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    Actually the "novice" was in the FJC in this case though your point is a good one.

    This ride wasn't 34th street though. It was a pretty tough climb that challenged even the built 40's.

    One thing that has been pretty well established is that the FJC isn't a "mall cruiser". There are tons of them off road. Do the stock ones go where built up 40's go? No. Are they are going where stock Rubies are going? Yes. At least that's what I'm seeing on all of my outings.

    If you are going to ORV's, I'm sure you are seeing them as well.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169

    I admit the FJC is not a mall cruiser (even though that's what I see a lot of them doing). It has potential. However it really doesn't have that much on a properly equipped 4 Runner for example. The have basically the same drive line, with slightly tidier dimensions on the FJC.

    However there is a marked dividing line between the Rubicon and the FJC. Sure there are difficult trails they will both be able to complete, but there are also trails where the Rubicon will leave the FJC behind.

    Admittedly, I only did some light off-road when I test drove the FJC, however the differences were apparent even there: The FJC's v6 has significantly less bottom end torque than the Rubi's I6. The articulation, especially in the front, was lacking compared to the Rubicon too. Not to mention very obvious things like the Rubi can physically fit more places than the FJC and it also has a tighter turning radius. One of the biggest differences I noticed from the driver's seat is that the visibility is so much better from the Jeep. I could not believe how much better it was. It seems that in keeping with 'Hummer styling', Toyota gave the FJC a very short windshield and a wide hood. Because of this, not only was upward visibility hampered, but forward and front side visibility was extremely limited. For every one spotter that you would need in a Wrangler you would probably need 2 or 3 for an FJC.

    I really don't think the TJ and FJC, and especially not the Rubicon, are in the same league. Sure if you poured LOTS of mods into an FJC it could be a counterpart for a Rubi, but out of the box, I don't think so.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    I'm starting to notice a lot of solid axle swaps for the FJC in various off-road magazines - advertized advantages: better articulation. This should be a little tip for Toyota: dump the IFS and go with solid axles like Jeep has on the new Wrangler.
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    You pretty much listed the things about the FJC that I don't like as well... IFS and visibility. I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by how well it does on the trail though.

    Solid axle swap would be a great mod. No a bit surprised that is popping up out there. I hear that the reason Toyota doesn't put them on US bound trucks has to do with the inherent safety gains you get from IFS in terms of on-road stability. Don't know if they are trying to reduce end user insurance rates, or avoid lawsuits, or if that reasoning is a bunch of bull, but that's what I've heard.

    Hope things are going well for you!
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    You know, I can see a lot of the maker's saying that IFS is more stable and I think that is partly true in a small percentage of the situations: On washboard at high speeds there is no doubt that IFS will give you more control. However, it means way more moving parts and the system is far weaker, taking much less abuse than it's solid counterparts.

    I think stability/rollovers, has a lot more to do with the center of gravity in 90% driving conditions than it does with IFS or solid axles in the odd washboard condition. And the funny thing is, I think most makers lift the vehicle way up there so that it looks 'cool'. It’s really not about function, because the minimum ground clearances stays the same under the axles or A-arms no mater how high you lift the body. This is an area that really burns me about a lot of 'SUV' makers.

    Have you had your 40 out lately?
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    A little bit... here's a shot of "hands free driving"


    Going on a 3day "expedition" in NC this weekend... 17 trucks in all. Should be a blast!

    Got the rear locker in last week so this will be the maiden voyage.

    I'll take pics. Been lots of rain over the last few days, so should be a bunch of mud!
  • canman1971canman1971 Member Posts: 61
    Well I used to own a Wrangler and had to do the whole waving thing? Now, I was just driving down the street in my FJ and a fellow FJ owner waved to me. Now, is this a new thing? Because, if it is, I'm not doing it. If it is a old 60s, 70's thing, then ok. Thanks in advance for the input.
  • daedae Member Posts: 143
    >I saw a rubicon and an FJC go up the same rocky creek bed... tough climb

    07' Rubicon? Not many of those around yet, mostly the 4 door. I was referring to 07 as havng the electronic limited slip (like ATRAC) - in addition to selectable lockers and other goodies.

    By all accounts they are quite an improvement as far as driving concerned, over TJ. Of course there are plenty of people unhappy with some plastic fenders, or some other really important thingy...
  • daedae Member Posts: 143
    >Don't know if they are trying to reduce end user insurance rates, or avoid lawsuits, or if that reasoning is a bunch of bull, but that's what I've heard.

    Bunch of bull. They just did not have a dedicated platform to slap the FJ overtyled bodywork on. They had Prada/4Runner.

    Time to marked and cost of production.

    Wrangler is in a class by itself now...
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    On the weekend I was reading an article on the all new 2007 Jeep Wrangler. With the exception of the V-6 engine and the crappy plastic bumpers its a pretty impressive machine – especially with that electric sway bar disconnect.

    I did a little checking on Ramp Travel Indexes tests for various stock vehicles, here are just a few RTI numbers I found:

    1991 Honda civic hatch back (factory stock): 319 - (I put this one in just for a refference point)

    1997 Jeep Wrangler (factory stock): 607

    2002 Jeep Cherokee (factory stock): 575 (approximate)

    2007 Toyota FJ cruiser (factory stock): 491

    Although the FJC’s RTI numbers put it in second last place out of the four listed, we have to remember that it has IFS and the two Jeeps were designed with stock axles. That’ being said, 491 is pretty respectable for a vehicle with IFS. You probably wont see too many stock IFS SUVs that will score higher than this.

    However the really depressing thing for the diehard FJ cruiser fans is when you compare it to the 2007 Wrangler’s RTI figures:

    Driving right off the dealer’s lot the new wrangler will give an RTI of 652 (with the sway bar). If you hit the sway bar disconnect button on the dash, it will pull a whopping 832 RTI! This is on a completely stock Jeep!

    Now if they can only get their heads on straight and put a diesel in that little machine for North America!
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    The other thing I found in that SAE article was the that new Jeep Wrangler has electronic traction control in the same way the FJ Cruiser’s A-track works. Through activating any given brake caliper, once wheel spin is detected, at least 50% of the engine's tourque is delivered to the wheel(s) that can use it best. Apparently, the Rubicon model ALSO still comes with the solid lockers. So if you buy the new Wrangler Rubicon you get the best of both worlds.
  • artemisartemis Member Posts: 1
    I'm currious, I sell Toyotas and would love to know what the problem was with the transmission on your avalon. It had to have been a fluke. (even the best tree can have a few bad apples)

    As far as the Rubicon vs FJ debate....
    In the trail trials the FJ produced some impressive results for any vehicle in its class. That is not to say that it is the absolute best at it but when you couple it with the rest of the package (smooth on road opperation, mileage, toyota reliability(your avalon being the exception) and the roominess, coupled with the retro style(call me barbie but I like it)) makes the FJ an excellent choice for people who want the capability but would like a bit more refinement when not powering over rocks and through mud etc.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169

    Few people here would dispute Toyota's quality of construction. However I guess many of the people on this forum are disappointed that the FJC didn't follow closer to the off-road heritage of the original FJ-40.

    Back in the 70's the FJ-40 and the Jeep CJ (wrangler) were very close counterparts. They were both extremely capable for the day. In the past 30 years, Jeep has continued to refine and hone the Wrangler's off-road ability while at the same time making incremental creature comfort improvements. In that time span Toyota killed the FJ and now brings it back. However, in real off-road ability it doesn't seem to have progressed that much beyond the original FJ, and some things like the visibility, plastic bumpers, no soft top, lack of under carriage protection are actually much worse than the original.

    If I was faced the desire to buy a new hard core off-road machine today, it would be one of three choices:

    1. Buy the new Wrangler Rubicon

    2. Buy an old Jeep CJ and put the extra money into mods to make it as good or better than the Rubicon.

    3. Buy an old FJ-40 like Steenh did, and put the extra cash into mods to make a killer machine.

    The FJC wouldn't even get a second look.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    Based on Toyota's reputation and success, I honestly expected much more in the FJC's off-road ability than what they delivered. I expected a Toyota 'Rubicon' or maybe something even more capable, but instead they spit out this thing that couldn't out 'wheel' the previous generation of Jeep Cherokee.

    If I was in the market for a Toyota, wanted creature comforts and some reasonable off-road ability, I would just buy a 4Runner and forget the FJC.
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    They could have "slapped" the FJ body on the LC 70 Series that's sold overseas in higher volumes than the FJC will here in the US? I don't think that cost was the reason. They "chose" the IFS... So, granted that the rock-crawling ability is limited by IFS, there had to be a reason. I'm betting insurance and wanting to increase the on-road drivability were the driving factors. Very respectable performance for IFS though.

    I personally hope they go solid in the future. Might trade in the 100 for it someday. 40 stays forever though.

    4x4... good to see you back in action!

    Trip this weekend was perfect... got to camp at 5500 ft, no rain while we were awake, enough at night to make for some great mud for the day rides, great trails, minor breakage. 17 LC's in all. 40 yrs between oldest and newest. My '67 and a couple of '07 FJC's with pretty much everything inbetween including a 60, and a few 80's.

    Covered about 35 miles over three days. A fantastic trip.

    My favorite pic...

    <img src=http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/steenh/Lithonia/DCFC00099.jpg

    Camping up on the bald.

    <img src=http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/steenh/Lithonia/DCFC00038.jpg
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169

    Sounds (and looks like) it was a great trip! I must say though as much as love to hit the swamps and mud holes, I'm not really fond of the clean up when I get home. I mean the last time I went on a really muddy trail with my CJ I had lots of mud inside, on the back seats, the floor, even the dash somehow got mud on it. When I got back it took about $20.00 at the car wash to make it look half respectable. However, as I'm sure it is with you, the memories are all good.

    Chears bud!
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412

    I didn't mean to imply that the Avalon was a piece. It was a very, very nice car. I was just highlighting that any vehicle can have issues. I'm not sure what was up with the tranny since it was fixed under warranty I didn't pry. The only other problem we had was the alignment. It never did track straight. All Toyota would say was that it was within specs.
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    Sounds like you had a blast. That is great looking FJ.
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    "If I was in the market for a Toyota, wanted creature comforts and some reasonable off-road ability, I would just buy a 4Runner and forget the FJC. "

    Or even better, the 4-door Tacoma and have some pick-up utility to go with it.
  • johndperryjohndperry Member Posts: 3
    I owned a Wrangler, sold it bought an FJ. I'll say the wrangler went a little better off road, but that is the ONLY thing better. Quality, durability, and a company that stands behind the warranty, rather than prentending the problems do not exist stands for a whole hellva lot more in my book, than a lower quality poorer made vehilcle sold by a buch of scumbags who will not even fix it. Daimler can only sit back and use such drivel as "legendary" when extorting the name "JEEP" todays Jeep vehicles are purely nothing more than mass produced cheaply made junk. Why have they rolled back the 7/70,000 drive train warranty to 3/ 36,000 at the same time GM has gone to 100,000? It is because they are too cheap to last, and the scumbags are losing customers by refusing to fix the problems. I know, I have owned 3 Jeeps! Never Again!
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    Hmmmm, strange, my 2005 Wrangler Rubicon has a 5year/100 000 warranty. I have had no problems with it; runs like a top. And actually the Wrangler has a very good customer satisfaction rating if you bother to look it up in surveys. Furthermore, the Wrangler has one of the best resale values of any vehicle sold - I believe it's tied with the Toyota Tundra.

    I try to buy and use a vehicle for what its designed for, hence I don't try to go rock crawling with my muscle cars and I don't expect to beet a Porsche at Le Mans with my Wrangler.
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    I hand my jeep bashing torch to you. (I thought I was rough)

    Not sure about the accuracy of the warranty data, but agree that the wranglers are fine off-road, but lack quality compared to most makers, and to Toyota especially. That's always been my complaint about them.

    Some of the reason for the "satisfaction" is the cult like following jeeps have due to being unique in the market. My FJ40 will have lot's of problems due to it being 40 yrs old, but I'm very "satisfied" for the same reasons jeep owners love their vehicles... unique and great at what they were built for. Doesn't make a jeep high quality though. My experience was similar to yours... one was enough.

    You have ATRAC on your FJC?
  • rubiconronrubiconron Member Posts: 3
    The Jeep Wrangler series of vehicles is every bit as reliable as a Toyota Tacoma, FJ ect..
    I have owned Toyota trucks and two Wranglers and my Jeeps have had less problems than the Toyota 4x4's.
    Look at the consumer reports and buyers guides to see what vehicles are reliable, dont go off hype.
    The jeep (Wrangler included) has been proven more than any other 4x4 in existence.
    The quality of the jeep is as good as any toyota and the Rubicon is in its own catagory of 4x4's because there is no other vehicle capable of doing what it can from the factory! I got more trouble free miles out of my Jeeps than my Toyota' s.
    I have owned both and know that in my personal experience the Jeeps held up better than the Toyota's did.
    I lost a driveline while doing 65 miles and hour down the highway in a Toyota truck because a Toyota u-joint failed. I also had to replace more parts on my Toyota's than I ever had to on my Jeeps, like front main seals, starters and brake parts.
    Does that mean the Toyota's are junk? Nope, just means they are not the bulletproof tanks that they are hyped up to be.
    Where did all this crap about toyota's being better quality come from anyway.
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    Where there is smoke there is usually fire. People talk about Toyota quality... and they don't talk about Jeep quality. They talk about Jeep capabilities... for good reason.

    Glad you've had good experiences with Jeep. That's one vote. I had a horrible experience. That's another vote. Neither of our experiences make a trend.

    Consumer reports and all the other measures consistently rank Toyota at or near the top. That's where the "crap" comes from.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    Rubicon and Steenh,

    I think I can shed some light on this one:

    There is a marked difference in Jeeps here. When I was talking about reliability of a Jeep I was speaking ONLY of the Wrangler. Wranglers, have an excellent reliability and they are one of the very best at holding their resale value. This is NOT true of all Jeeps! In fact you will find that the both the reliability and resale of Jeep Cherokees, and the 'Liberty' is MUCH lower than that of the Wrangler.

    I have compared for several years back in many publications such as lemonaid, consumer reports, e-pinions etc. and found that the Wrangler TJ consistently has few issues historically and is rated as a very solid machine. My personal experience backs this up too. However the ratings of the other Jeeps made in the last 10 years do not follow this. They have a much more average reliability rating.

    As far as Toyotas being unreliable ‘crap’, well I don’t have any personal experience to support or refute this – the reviews say Toyotas are reliable. However what the reviews do not report on is body corrosion: I happen to know that Toyotas made before the 90’s were tied with Hondas for having the worst rust problems of anything that rolls on pavement.
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    I know this from first hand experience. I bought an a new 04 4wd Grand Cherokee and less than a year later A new Rubicon. In that time I've had 0 mechanical problems with the Rubicon and 10 or more problems with the Grand Cherokee. I have been very very disappointed in it, and would definitely hesitate to buy any other Daimler Chysler model. My wife has been eyeing Mercedes sedans, but I'm going to try to steer her to a Lexus or Infinity. However, I love my Rubicon and am so glad I bought it. In fact, the negative post from the previous Wrangler owner was the only one I've seen on a Wrangler. Steenh, didn't you say you had a Cherokee?
  • rubiconronrubiconron Member Posts: 3
    fourX4forever, I didnt say Toyota's are unreliable crap. I said where did all this crap come from about Toyota's having the BEST Quality.
    Dont get me wrong here, I loved my Toyota Trucks. I simply stated that they gave me more problems than any Wrangler I ever owned.
    I have been impressed with my Toyota trucks but I have been more impressed with my Jeeps. And I also take into consideration that the Jeep (Wrangler) is an American 4X4.
    The Toyota's have a reputation for being tough.
    So do the Jeeps. I think the Toyotas have been used more overseas in remote areas so gulible Americans think they are better. Better marketing and sales focused on foreign markets has gotten the Land Cruisers a reputation for being ultra reliable and has gottem them used in other countries.
    They are no more reliable than a Jeep.
    Land Cruisers and Jeeps both have a cult following. There is competition between the two vehicles in the US. Competition is good and I wish Toyota would make a new vehicle like the old FJ-40. The FJ-Cruiser is not that vehicle!!
    I would be happy to take my Rubicon anywhere a Land Cruiser has ever been in any country (Provided I wasnt paying the travel expenses)!
    The old FJ-40's are built heavier than the older Jeeps, The Land Cruisers also weigh 1000 lbs more than the older CJ-5's and 7's!!!
    The Jeeps will hang with the Land Cruisers, that has been proven, and in my personal experience my Jeeps were more reliable than my Toyota's. I'm not talking about Cherokee's or the Liberty. I wouldnt own a Liberty any faster than I would own an FJ Cruiser.
    My wife drove a Cherokee for several years and it was a great vehicle. Hers was the old style Jeep Cherokee in the 98 sport model and it held up great. NO problems in the 5 or 6 years she drove it, and I mean no problems. Now she was not driving it off road but she is hard on vehicles, like most women I have known, no offense to any other women out there!!
    Anyway, If a guy wants a RELIABE, CAPABLE and fun vehicle to drive off road or around town or on the highway a Rubicon is as good as it gets for certain types of people.
    Yeah, it doesnt hold much beyond the driver and one passenger but it will get you where you are going and back.
    Wow, this is a long windy post!!! Ron
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Toyotas made before the 90’s were tied with Hondas for having the worst rust problems of anything that rolls on pavement.

    I think that distinction would belong to the '73 or '74 Pinto. :)

    tidester, host
  • daedae Member Posts: 143
    >They could have "slapped" the FJ body on the LC 70 Series

    Which would have probably made it more expensive. They are not selling LG70 here as nobody paying that kind of money here are taking it off-road, unlike in some corneres of the world. No dealers are set up to service it. And they obviously did not care THAT much about off-road performance.
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    I did have a cherokee, but one of the biggest problems I had with it was the engine and that's the same engine that was in the Wranglers.

    The FJC's are pretty good off-road. I driven one. Are they as good as a Rubicon off-road out the door? Probably not. Will they most likely be running much better after 100k miles? That bet I would take.

    The LC's are run so extensively overseas in rough country where 4x4's are needed because they are reliable and tough off road vehicles, they are not perceived as tough and reliable because they are used overseas... chicken vs. egg.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169

    In all fairness though, the LCs used over seas have little to almost nothing in common with the FJ Cruiser. The Jeep Wrangler is much more like the LCs over seas than the FJC is.

    Oddly enough Steenh, I have never ever, heard anybody complain about the reliability of the inline 4.0L six engine that was used in the Cherokee(s) and the wrangler. By all accounts they are a nearly bullet proof engine that I have personally seen several examples go over 500 000km with no major repairs - and still not use an appreciable oil or smoke. I have not seen too many other engines that will even come close to this. My bets are that neither the V6 in the FJC or the V6 in the new Wrangler will outlive the abuse and longevity of the 4.0L I6. The architecture of an I6 is vastly superior to any V6 and will stand far more abuse with less maintenance.

    The biggest complaint I hear about the Jeep Cherokees was not with engine, but transmission trouble. However this problem does not carry over to the Wranglers because they predominantly used different transmissions. By all accounts; media, personal, and word of mouth, the Jeep Wrangler has an excellent reliability track record and fantastic resale value.
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    No argument there... LC's overseas are not FJC's.

    I was making to point that for anyone to say LC's get their excellent reputation because Toyota's marketing machine did a good job of selling a product overseas is backwards... they got their reputation because they built quality capable trucks that were bought by the markets that needed them... and then they delivered quality and capability. That's why they still are the number one selling 4x4 worldwide.

    Sorry I was the first to complain about the engine... and maybe I got a lemon, but mine was horrible... great when it ran right, but that wasn't often. Then, the clutches twice, the caliper, etc... transmission actually didn't cause any problems but I had to dump it at 60k or so. Tradein value was pretty high if I remember right? Irony at it's best.

    Saw a picture of a new Wrangler with a tent built into the roof... that was a very cool idea. Like I've seen some Toyota board members say... "wish we could hire their designers... don't want any of the engineers though"
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    This week the 07 Wrangler Rubicon was named Peterson's Offroad 4x4 of the Year, and also 4 Wheeling and Offroard 4x4 of the year. In the case of Peterson's, the comparison group included the FJC. Not sure if that was the case witht he 4 Wheeling & Offroad group.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    I guess this should come as no suprise to any of us. The outgoing Wrangler (never mind the Rubicon model) was more trail capable than the FJC. By all accounts this new Wrangler platform is the bassis for the most capable factory off-road vehicle every made, even more than the previous wranglers.
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    "By all accounts this new Wrangler platform is the bassis for the most capable factory off-road vehicle every made, even more than the previous wranglers."

    You would need to amend that statement to say "made and marketed solely to US consumers" The LC 70 Series is SFA, has a diesel option and is a Toyota.

    The magazines are only looking at US marketed vehicles.

    And then... there's that quality thing... the V6 that even you don't like...

    See the SEMA pics of the FJC pickup with the retractable roof? Looks pretty nice. They are getting closer. SFA someday... gotta hope!
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169

    Well I don't know if I do have to amend that. I'm pretty sure that while the overseas LCs do have rear lockers, they probably don't have front AND rear lockers from the factory. (not to say that a dealer couldnt put one in). And I'm positive the over seas LCs don't have an electronic disconnecting sway bar. I think 835 on the Ramp Travel Index is pretty far out of the range of any stock Toyota over seas or domestic, but that's what the new Wrangler will do out of the box.

    As far as that V6 goes: Yup its crap in the purest form! But then I wouldn't rate any V6 worth too much including the one made by Toyota. Besides, I'm about 98% sure that a diesel will be an option within 24 months.

    If that top was at SEMA then that sends the bigest message to the automakers that: 'hey you guys aren't giving us what we want so we had it made aftermarket' And who knows? Toyota might just listen. The Jeep Rubicon was born entirely from aftermarket demands. Chrysler actually paid close attention to what off-roaders wanted. I haven't seen any other automaker do this since the 60's when muscle cars were made.
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    "Autos Mujeres al Volante" Magazine Selects Jeep® Wrangler and Chrysler Town & Country as 2006 Women's Cars of the Year

    You guys are right... the awards keep rolling in. ;)

    FJC top is one of those that Toyota said would likely be a factory option in the future... the pickup also got rid of the C pillar issue. As far as the RTI on a 70 series... can't find it... but locking F&R certainly would be as easy as saying you want one and paying.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    Hey, I can see how many women would love the outgoing Wragnler and the new 2007 Wrangler:

    It's a convertable,

    When the hard top is on it's as warm as any car in the winter,

    It has a turning circle smaller than just about any other 4x4 (except something with 4 wheel steering) and the visibility is second only to a motorbike - It parks like a dream!!!

    Who wouldn't like all those things?? You think girls are going to turn this down just cuz they are girls???
  • steenhsteenh Member Posts: 103
    Chick car, Soccer Mom-mobile... I think that's exactly what Toyota was hoping to avoid with the FJC... kind of ironic that Wrangler wins it... and not just Women... but Hispanic Women at that.

    I can honestly say I have never seen an Hispanic woman driving a Wrangler.

    Nothing against women in jeeps... lots of them out there.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    Well you know I think accountants at DaimlerChrysler will see their way clear that the scoccer mom's money will be just as favorable on the ballance sheet as the money they worked hard to earn from hard core off-roaders.

    Who can forsee that a vehilce designed to please a niche market becomes a favorite with all! That's really what the Jeep was all obout in the first place: In 1947 they never promised plush interior, a soft ride and a bunch of entertainment crap - they made an honest to goodness off-road vehicle! It's just that once they built it, many others came.

    If I get my Christmas wish this year it will be that Liberty sales fall flat on their face while the new Wrangler's sales soar to hights never seen before. Then maybe some of those clowns in product development will see that some tin can with a closed roof and IFS is not the way to go.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Member Posts: 169
    Since it&#146;s fall of 2006 we are now seeing the 2007s on most dealer lots, sooooo…. I of course have a rant! No, my rant is not about Toyota and how they are not really committed to the North American off-road segment &#150; that&#146;s already been well established. Rather, it&#146;s about Jeep and DaimlerChrysler. Yes, there is a rift in the Jeep brand that has been growing ever since the cancellation of the beloved 4.0L Cherokee Sport and the introduction of the Liberty. At the same time Jeep introduced the Wrangler Rubicon, a vehicle most 4x4 publications and off-roaders alike, state is the most trail capable vehicle to produced by an auto manufacturer BAR NONE. Most of you are aware of this. However the rift continues to widen!

    While the 2007 Wrangler Rubicon is apparently even more capable than the outgoing Wrangler Rubicon TJ, Daimler has seen fit to introduce the Jeep Compass! An overhead cam 4 cylinder, car-like vehicle with the ground clearance of a stiletto. With no low range capability available, and a acres of plastic inside and out, IFS (and I believe IRS) how can anybody with a straight face call this a JEEP!?!? Not to mention that the front bumper comes up on each side at the corners of the grille to make it look like a chipmunk with its cheek stuffed full of nuts! This thing is truly a PILE right from the back widow spoiler right down to the all season radials!

    The deletion of solid axles from the Grand Cherokee line up, the lack of them on the Commander and the so called Jeep Patriot, have really turned almost all of the traditional Jeep owners from ever being seen near one of these vehicles much less owning one! Yes Daimler has the nerve to produce something like the Commander, which &#145;looks&#146; a lot like the kind of Jeep that we have grown to love, but underneath is really just an IFS Grand Cherokee. Yet Chrysler insists that it&#146;s a real Jeep in the true historical sense! Well, Chrysler we&#146;re not buying it &#150; Literally!

    With the very real exception of the Wrangler, us Jeepers see the brand name devolving into becoming just another me-too label that produces the same kind of middle of the road, attempts everything, but really is not good at anything, type of vehicles. These type of vehicles have been the domain of GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota (in North America) for the past 10 years or more, and now Jeep seems more than willing to slip into this abyss of mediocrity! Daimler&#146;s efforts regarding the Rubicon are well noted and well appreciated by off-roaders, however the dilution of the &#145;Jeep&#146; brand name with the introduction of all these other, less than lame models is overwhelmingly pulling the name down. If you want to build something like the Compass, then fine, but don&#146;t call it a Jeep! If they keep this up I&#146;ll soon be embarrassed to drive anything that has a &#145;Jeep&#146; badge; it will become known as the &#145;has been off-road label&#146;.

    My message to DaimlerChrysler is: better wake up fast!!! You&#146;re killing a legendary name and alienating your diehard core supporters.

    - end rant -
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    No, I think that DC will have to try a lot harder than that to kill the Jeep image.

    Take 100 non-automotive enthusiast adult members of the car buying public, and show them pictures of all DC's Jeep offerings except the Wrangler. I doubt if more than ten would identify them as Jeep products.

    However, show the same 100 people a picture of a Wrangler and I'd guess that at least 99 would smile and say "Jeep!".

    Most people don't find it practical to own one, but they will identify it as one of America's most recognized and loved icons.

    I might be embarrassed to be seen in a Compass, but never in my Wrangler. :shades:
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