Make Me a Better (Online) Car Salesman!

mousie

I put a bogus phone number in (and tell them so) in my requests.

Last week, my brother wanted an 06 odyssey touring black/black... i'm in california and there were 3 in the state. So, I started emailing every dealer and said if you have it, email me and if you don't please don't contact me.

Of course I got the "I have silver" emails but I ended up finding one and the deal worked out great.

On the autobytel and edmunds forms I put a bogus number and then say I'm putting a bogus number on purpose because i like dealing by email only and dont want a barrage of calls. I'm a serious buyer and if the deal is good, I'll reply with my phone number.

Have bought 4 cars online this way and it works great.

snakeweasel

I do read carefully, just don't say you didn't say something when you plainly did. Thats all I will say for now.

PF_Flyer

Let's drop the personal back and forth about each other's reading skills here please. This is not the first time for going back and forth over things like this. This endless trying to prove something is getting tiresome.

If you have a personal issue with another user, please keep it off of the forums.

socala4

You can't just blanketly state that you will be within so much of a book number though cause the books just can't keep up with the value of certain cars.

I see your point, and you probably don't want to push up the price of the car by getting customers to demand the higher end of the typical offer range.

But what if you told prospective customers something to the effect of "We use KBB, while considering mileage, condition and other factors. In many, but not all circumstances, we will use the wholesale KBB amount, with adjustments made for mileage, condition, etc."

Since you're probably already doing that anyway, it might not hurt you if you went through the process of showing how you calculated your price...well, if it was reasonably close to wholesale book. I've known a couple of small dealers, and they never paid anywhere close to wholesale, so perhaps I'm mistaken about how useful this would be to the salesperson.

mirth

But what if you told prospective customers something to the effect of "We use KBB, while considering mileage, condition and other factors. In many, but not all circumstances, we will use the wholesale KBB amount, with adjustments made for mileage, condition, etc."

Since you're probably already doing that anyway

From what I've gathered reading these forums for several years, no dealer uses KBB - they use the current auction prices. And they are not necessarily close to each other.

socala4

From what I've gathered reading these forums for several years, no dealer uses KBB - they use the current auction prices.

I'm sure that you're right. I've known a couple of dealers, and they never paid anywhere near wholesale book for their inventory.

Perhaps that's why a dealer would be reluctant to make reference to any given source -- because any number they offer would be well below any of them. Sometimes, I wonder where the KBB wholesale number is supposed to come from, being that the claim and the reality seem so much different.

biancar

irace fan gave a good account, way back there, of what the internet experience can be.

I use internet for my initial shopping too. If a dealer came back to me with a request for a phone number so we could discuss it, I would figure the *dealer* isn't serious about internet sales and would toss it. Pobably isell would think I'm a flake; I'd be thinking he's a flake for asking for my phone number when I've clearly indicated that I prefer e-mail.

In my case, I'm hard of hearing. I use the internet to get information. Using the phone is difficult for me, and frustrating on both sides. I don't want to discuss what I want on the telephone, or get prices on the telephone. Way too many opportunities for confusion.

If a dealership bills itself as having an internet sales dept., it should be able to conclude the sale using the internet. Seems only logical. Give a fair price for the new car, offer an appointment time for the buyer to come in. Offer test-drive if the buyer is still in the test-driving phase of the process. If the buyer says yes, I'll buy it, then have all the paperwork filled out when the buyer arrives. Make it as fast as possible.

I'm currently in the process of looking for a convertible, and am most seriously considering the Volvo C70. I've been in touch with the salesman by e-mail, and last weekend went to the dealership to introduce myself. He'll e-mail (not phone) me when the car arrives so I can test-drive.

He knows I'm serious. If he starts calling me, rather than using the internet, I'll be annoyed and will go to someone else.

exb0

My father in law (FIL) was looking to replace his Accord. I gave him few options; he took a couple of test drives and landed on Subaru Impreza. One Saturday morning I went to the Subaru site; used “build your car” link and requested quotes from 6 different dealers. I prefer to use manufacturer’s sites for requesting quotes because I can tell the dealer exactly what I am looking for by selecting options and packages that I want.

I received five responses within three hours. All of them came with quotes that ranged from 600 under invoice to invoice for car that I am looking for, in color choice that I am looking for. The sixth dealer called me, and the salesman told me that he did a search in 50 mile radius and no one has the car that I am looking for; and he asked me to come down and purchase the black on. When a salesman lies to me flat out he has no chance for my business. I just laughed, thanked for the call and hung up.

Next, I sent an email reply to the dealer with the lowest quote; he just happened to be second closest to were I live. I asked them for the OTD price and the mileage on the car. He included processing fee in his quote, but I just wanted to make sure there were no other surprises. The mileage thing is important to my FIL because he only wants a fresh car. Instead of a reply to my email, a salesman called me on the phone. He danced around the OTD price question and told me that since the car is on the satellite lot, it would be too much trouble to find out what the mileage is. He asked for us to come in that day, because he is off the following day. When we came to the store, the car was prepped and ready to go. It turns out that the car had 140 miles on it, and my FIL refused to buy it, regardless of the price. The moral of the story is, if a customer is asking a specific question, give him a specific answer, otherwise, you will be wasting YOUR time.

I printed the quote, my FIL took it to the local dealer, and they beat it by another $200.

exb0

BTW, never ever fill out a credit application on dealer’s web site. Every dealer site that I have seen is not SSL protected. That means that your information is not encrypted and that any teenage hacker can spoof your personal data to use in identity theft. Even if the connection is encrypted, you don’t know how secure dealer’s servers are. Dealer’s computers can be hacked, and your data will end up in criminal hands.

british_rover

People are so funny about miles. I have never cared if the car had 5 miles or 500 as long as the car still looked new.

I have had people say that they will not take a car that has over 40 miles on it which is a real problem with Range Rovers since nearly all of them come with a minimum of 30 miles fresh off the truck.

Our other sales guide had the same thing happen to him as you did. He sold a car that had a 198 miles on it cause it was our only Range Rover in stock for about a month. The people drove it said everything was good so on and so forth. Car was cleaned prepped all ready to go and they were signing all the paper work when the odo statement came up.

The car had 214 miles on it now from giving a final test drive by a tech and then the sales guide putting gas in it.
They freaked out said we were trying to sell them a used car and they wanted everything canceled. Just by dumb luck we had another Range in the same color with the same options on the lot it still had about 70 miles on it, all of the come of the truck with at least 30 remember, which was ok by them.

Car had to be cleaned and detailed, then gas put in it, then all the paper work redone. Their delivery ended up taking a whole day by the time they had gone over all of the features of the car.

I just don't see how wasting almost eight hours was worth 15 miles.

imidazol97

I'm learning a lot from this site and the discussion. Thanks to everyone.

I wouldn't mind a car with under a 100 miles if it's been with the dealer a while and has a few test drives. If it's recent andhas lots of miles, different opinion.

New cars I've had delivered have had few miles other than one of my Mustangs in 67 or 70. It had a sheet with it that it had been chosen to be driven for some quality check. I forget how many miles it had.

golic

C'mon Rover, we have to gripe about something??? When I bought my last Ody, wife for some reason had this vision she wanted the Havasu Blue..well thank god, the order never came through...anyway deal is falling apart because they said they would have the car in one month and its been two, and the lease on are other Ody is gong to end in a month.

I convinced wife for Black, they didn't have it but found one! They found one about 100 miles away as it had an odometer reading of 163. I guess I could care less, but I got a "free" oil change out of it.

Back in '95 when I had my sebring at about 2,000 miles my speedometer went out, after the second speeding ticket I couldnt get out of, with the but my speedometer went out, I took it in to get replaced. Much to my suprise they replaced it with a new one and the odometer read zero. I figured if I ever need warranty work between 36-39k miles I would just rip that little sticker out of the door *hauntinglaugh*

mackabee

I did internet sales/bdc for about 2 1/2 years. Life expectancy for this position is about 6 months. Interesting to say the least.
Mackabee

bobst

"People are so funny about ..."

That's why it is great being the customer. We can be 'funny' about whatever we feel like, and the sales person either has to meet our needs or we go somewhere else.

isellhondas

" I printed the quote"

Exactly why we don't give written price quotes.

biancar

Why are you so terrified of giving a written price quote? Are your prices always higher than competing stores in your area?

lmp180psu

I think that Isell is 'afraid' that the person will print the quote out, take it to another dealer, the dealer will beat it by $50, and then he has lost the deal....all over $50. Even if the quote is for example $300 under invoice (before any rebates), which is a very good price IMO, the other dealer will get the business despite the prompt response, and quick process from Isell....just over $50.

I pretty much bought my mom's car in 2004 using the internet, and I got 3 quotes, and ended up buying from the dealer who had a competitive quote (it was within $100 of the others), but what set them apart was the quick response, and all the paperwork pretty much done when we arrived. I found out the guy we bought from was someone in my HS graduating class....small world isn't it.

kurtamaxxguy

Honesty.

Some buyers/ups/whatever you want to call us are too busy with a professional life to "play the game". I know your dealer employer has to make a profit. As long as its fair and reasonable, that's fine by me.

Buying by internet is (I think) saying to you; we don't want persian bazaar, just tell us what you want for the car we want. We'll decide if that's reasonable or not.

But, if you quote a price, then I expect it to be __the PRICE__, not some number that the finance office will screw around with and try to pack with sneaky last minute charges. One "internet dealer" did that to me and they will never get my business again, no matter what flyer or emails they send.

That's my 2-cents. Please save the haggle tactics for those walk-ins who want to "beat the dealer"!

bettersafe

I wish you luck: Your dream purchase is possible !

A few months ago I purchased a Hyundai XG350 located in Sheboygan WI, while I was at work in Alaska. All the arrangements were made over the net. A month earlier my wife had test driven an XG and she fell in love with the seats and interior. I had not even sat in one when we made the deal! I was offered a fair price, and accepted the price without any dikkering.

On the appointed day, my wife and I drove six hours from southeast Iowa to Wisconson, and picked up the car. . . Zero hassles, Great Car, Nice Process. The only problem was that we were suppose to keep the car at 55 or below during the break-in period. Interstates and 55 MPH do not mix.

Local dealers could not locate the color we wanted, nor would come anywhere near the price. For driving 6 hours each way, we saved several thousand of dollars, and my wife got her color "dark cinnamon". Without the net, this purchase would not have happened.

I did not care about leaving $300 on the table. However, I did care about leaving $3000 on the table. I purchased the extended warranty through them as well for about half the retail price. For a little dealership in Sheboygan to attract business from SE Iowa. . . .who would have thought that possible; all because of the net.

I could compare this with a visit to Honda dealership in Vegas, where I could not get any answers to anything without filling out a credit app. That was a miserable process, and ended up with wife and I bitter against Honda.

The net will change / has changed the process of purchasing vehicles. I tried to give business to my local dealer. . . I would have gone through them if he was within $500 of the best price from the net. But failure to locate the correct color, and failure to be reasonable on price, lost them the sale.

BetterSafe

bettersafe

But, if you quote a price, then I expect it to be __the PRICE__, not some number that the finance office will screw around with and try to pack with sneaky last minute charges.

The above is absolutely true. Any deviation from the quoted price is an immediate flag to walk away. Salesfolk should assume that internet users are a bit more sophisticated than the average Joe/Jill.
BetterSafe

british_rover

Thats fine but when you know ahead of time the car has almost 200 miles and commons sense is going to tell you that just putting gas in it will put it over 200 don't stand in the office screaming at everyone about bait & Switch and you are selling me a used car blah blah blah. Our dealership is small the F&I office is five feet from the service desk and less then twenty-five feet from my office at the other corner of the showroom.

They were shown respect through out the sales process even though they gave us exactly zero respect through the entire process.

It was the same after the sales process and they have treated service the same way as well. The way they treated our other sales guide and centre manager I would have let them walk but they were not my customer so not my call. I am going to treat you with respect and I expect the same in return and I also have no tollerance for people who cannot control their temper. Just a pet peve of mine.

But now we have gotten way off topic. This really belongs in the inconsederate buyers topic.

bobst

Good post, Rover. I see your point very well.

"This really belongs in the inconsederate buyers topic."

That is a good point. There used to be a topic like that and I think it did help some of us buyers to realize how our behavior could irritate sales people.

However, the topic was very active and had a lot of postings so the hosts shut it down because they were having to spend a lot of time monitoring the posts.

socala4

That is a good point. There used to be a topic like that and I think it did help some of us buyers to realize how our behavior could irritate sales people.

Car sales are a nasty business, so I don't blame some consumers for lashing back. If the sales tactics routinely employed weren't so aggressive and deceptive to the point that they are, then perhaps things would be different. (You don't many people acting like this at Nordstrom, for example.) Personally, I'll happily drag them through the mud, since that's what they would certainly do to me and everyone else when given the chance.

golic

Now, I am pretty certain the MSRP on that vehicle is over 30,000 and I am pretty certain that "if" I called this guy I would hear about the typo, the demo, the dealer car, something.

Point is, this is the kinda stuff which just says to me, there is no way in god's green earth I wanna deal with this guy. Because I am sure, there is a "story" for evertying.

I have learned alot from this post and in future email inquiries I will provide all my info- name, addy, phone.

From my standpoint, I would just like to see, a quote on the car I asked for doesnt have to be rock bottom price, just a competive one.

I have actually tabled the car thing for a few months, but there is an excellent internet guy at Toyota i've been working with, very upfront, answers question and his price was slightly lower than TMV..and if I go toyota, there is no doubt he is who I am buying from.

Maybe I am different than others, but I can put a premium on service and I would rather pay more to a "professional" who answered my questions and offered his insight. Than a guy who sent me this:

Dear Golic,

My name is XXXX and I am the Internet Sales Manager for XXXXX Honda. Thank you for your inquiry on the 2006 Honda Pilot. I look forward to working with you. At the end of this email, I have include a map and directions in case you decide to stop by.

The 2006 Honda Pilot EX-L with Navigation is currently priced as follows:

M.S.R.P ......... $26,660

Internet Price ........ $14,520

This price includes the Destination Charge, but not the Tax, Title, License Plates, Etc. I am confident that you will find this pricing quite aggressive. I would look forward to the opportunity of assisting you through the process of acquiring a new vehicle. I also hope to provide you with the best car buying experience you've ever had.

british_rover

Thats fine but do you walk into every dealership with your guard up like that? If the sales staff is treating you with respect from the get go then why don't you return the same? If you came in with that kind of attitude with me and I had been treating you with the respect I treat all of my customers from the get go I would probably let you walk.

I actually had a customer like that just a couple of saturdays ago. She was abusive to me and her husband the whole time and just not pleasent at all. She just wanted our best, best rock bottom price on a vehicle that frankly we have never sold for less then MSRP. We worked the lease as best we could to get her the lowest leas payment but we were not going to discount the car. When she got all huffy and started yelling I just told her I am sorry this is what that car works out for when leasing and that is all I can do. I let her leave, I didn't call her and didn't send her any thank you notes for coming by because I don't want people like that as customers.

socala4

I actually had a customer like that just a couple of saturdays ago. She was abusive to me and her husband the whole time and just not pleasent at all.

I don't see a need to yell or to be abusive, so I don't bother with any of that. I don't turn the sale into a battle of egos, there's no need for that.

But I've had sales guys do the laughter routine, become rude and imposing, and on and on, so I know that sales guys are not above using nastiness to try to intimidate a customer into closing. Since I expect it, I have my ways to deal with it, and will happily let you guys think that you have me under control until you're so far down the road with the deal that you're desperate to close me. Very easy to work the system, if you understand how the system works.

bobst

"Personally, I'll happily drag them through the mud"

Socal, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were still smoking when I was born. That means I am old.

When I look back on my life, the main things I regret are the times I have been nasty to people.

Of course, I also regret the times others took advantage of me and the times I let others push me around, but I feel worse about the times I have not been nice to other people.

I agree that car buying is not for the faint of heart, but we customers can get what we want without purposely trying to make the sales staff miserable. I try to be friendly and honest with people, and if they don't like it, that's their business.

socala4

I try to be friendly and honest with people, and if they don't like it, that's their business.

I don't want a friendship with a car salesman, I want the lowest price. I'm not going to leave money on the table to spare some guy's feelings and to give him bragging rights at the weekly sales meeting.

Car sales are a game, and I play along with it. The sales guys simply get the byproduct of their own trickery and gimmickry. There is a reason why Joe Sixpack fears and loathes the sales lot, and it isn't because of me.

golic

So tell us how to "work" the system...

Enquiring minds and all *nodnod*

socala4

Well, I hate to give everything way, but just bear this in mind:

-Sales guys like to confuse you by dancing between the sales price, down payment, trade-in value and monthly payment. Don't fall for that game: Negotiate the lowest purchase and highest trade-in value seperately, and use those combined with the best loan terms to borrow the least amount of money possible for a given down payment or trade-in with the best terms possible. Do your math before walking onto the lot, and understand all the figures, and you'll maximize the transaction in your favor and still end up with the lowest payment, but with better terms.

-If financing, arrange it before you go into the dealer, and borrow from the dealer's sales folks only if it is better than what a bank or credit union have to offer you. Understand the Rule of 78 and the concept of amortization, and how these affect you when borrowing on a car loan. DON'T FOCUS ON MONTHLY PAYMENTS, as this will be the easiest way to slip in bad terms that cause you to overpay, borrow too much and at too high of a rate for too long of a period.

-Remember that sales guys have long-used engrained tactics for trying to close you, confuse you and push up the price. A lot of it is a shell game, where they use some numbers to try to distract you from others. Rather than turn it into a tug-of-war by showing them that you're smarter, fool them instead by understanding their tactics and pretending that you are falling for them, and let them work themselves into a lather wanting your "sucker's" business until you're read to actually seriously get your price.

Remember, the sales guy's main opponent is time -- the more time that he invests in you, the more he wants and needs to close you. If you spend five minutes with him, it's easy to let you walk, but spend three hours with him and he will be killing for your near invoice offer. And remember -- he is there to take your money, he is not your friend.

gogiboy

"Trying to rope in a customer into a test drive smacks of the old bait-and-switch marketing gimmick that the tech-oriented customers, price shoppers and terrified buyers all resent."

Socala, I appreciate what you are saying, but buying a car without a test drive seems like the height of folly. What if you don't like the ergonomics, noise level, shift points, etc, etc? Suppose you can't find a comfortable seating position? Now, if you have already driven the type of vehicle you plan to purchase or agree with the internet salesperson on an offer contingent upon satisfactory test drive I can understand that.

I'm noticing an increasing number of relators offering virtual home tours, but I wouldn't dream of making an offer without going over the house with a fine tooth comb--probably several times.

I say all this even though much of the discussion over our last two cars was done via the internet, mostly because both dealers were between 80-175 miles away and both cars were used; I had driven the same make/model of car in advance. Used cars make it even tougher since so many more variables are in play. I'm always surprised at the huge volume of cars that sell on eBay sight unseen. I'm sure many, many good deals are found, it just seems like a recipe for hurt feelings and recriminations.

Are people so gun-shy of car salespeople that they don't feel they can walk away from a bad deal, particularly if they have done all their calculations in advance like many here in the Edmunds forums? I've passed on at least 10-20 potential deals because the price wasn't right or the salesman didn't know about their product or seemed dishonest

Gogiboy

bobst

I think you explained your system very well. Years ago in Edmunds, there was a whole series of articles on car-buying written by Burke Leon and you pretty much summarized exactly what he said. Even though I have a different car-buying method, I think your advice could help a lot of people.

You are right about car dealers trying to confuse buyers, but it is much better than it used to be. If you looked at American cars in 1970, the sales sticker whould show the basic price of the car and list the prices of about 20 options - things like a radio, power steering, door handles, etc. No two cars had the exact same options, so it was very hard to compare prices.

Now cars like Honda Accords come with standard packages and it is so easy to compare prices. Things have gotten much better since the 60's, except for the music, of course.

bobst

"buying a car without a test drive seems like the height of folly"

Of course, you are correct. However, we make an OTD offer contingent on us liking the car after a test drive.

If they decide to not accept our offer, no harm done, and we haven't put unnecessary miles on their new car.

If they accept our offer, we take the car on a VERY thorough test drive. If a sales person comes with us, I ask him to not say a single word. We have never refused the car after the test drive.

After the test drive, if they try to increase the OTD price by even a dollar (as happened when we bought our Acura in 2003), we head for the door. In that case, they quickly removed the extra dollar they wanted to charge us.

socala4

Socala, I appreciate what you are saying, but buying a car without a test drive seems like the height of folly. What if you don't like the ergonomics, noise level, shift points, etc, etc?

I'm not recommend that people not test drive cars, I'm just analyzing the buying process and guesstimating what a lot of internet shoppers are probably thinking.

By the time that an internet buyer has made an offer, I would guess that the average one has already test driven the car, or perhaps had it as a rental. But from the dealer's standpoint, it really doesn't matter whether or not he has test driven it, just so long as your check clears, or unless they are located in states with buyer's remorse laws that permit refunds within a few days of purchase. (My home state doesn't have these laws, so here the sales guy shouldn't care whether I've driven the car or not.)

Understand that the reason that the dealer wants you to test drive the car is not to help you to become an informed customer, but to control you. He wants new car smell, euphoria, ego and everything else to get you to pay the maximum price, and to buy the weatherproofing, vinyl protector and all that other useless stuff to protect your new baby.

I'd recommend that you seperate your test driving from your purchase process, so that you haggle from a more logical standpoint. I use the test drive on purchase day to waste the sales guy time and to lure him in to my time trap, not to make a purchase decision. (Of course, he won't know that.)

biancar

Test drive on purchase day is also wise to confirm that *this particular car* is set up correctly, no dings or scratches in the new paint, everything tight that should be tight, and so on.

Again speaking specifically to the internet sales question, an internet manager needs to ask himself if his response to a customer's query is moving the sale along from the *customer's* point of view. In other words, asking the customer to call the dealership is not moving the sale along; the customer presumably has access to a phone and would have called in the first place if that was how he/she preferred to do business.

Giving an actual price quote, confirming that you do have a blazing red passionmobile with autotransmission and Bose radio on the lot, per the customer's request, is moving the sale along.

Give the customer the information requested, in other words.

Asking the customer to call or asking for their phone number so you can call, is moving backwards; the person has already indicated they want to do business via internet.

Meet their needs and you'll make the sale.

socala4

Test drive on purchase day is also wise to confirm that *this particular car* is set up correctly, no dings or scratches in the new paint, everything tight that should be tight, and so on.

Very good point. I always make a point of thoroughly checking the specific car that I am to purchase, even if it is new. Cars are complex products with many potential areas for trouble, and it is wise to give the car you'll buy a thorough inspection before parting with the check.

isellhondas

You've been reading too many "how to buy a car" books.

Oh...nevermind, you are in So. Calif, right?

I don't want to "control" anybody. I do want to make sure they like the car they are thinking about buying and they do need to drive it.

Once in awhile, I'll get a customer like yourself who tries to bully me or outsmart me. I despise people who do this since I try to treat people the way I like to be treated.

Yes, I do try to slow my customers down when they get forceful with me. Everyone ends up happier that way in the end.

socala4

I don't want to "control" anybody. I do want to make sure they like the car they are thinking about buying and they do need to drive it.

I realize that sales guys totally resent it when others demystify the sales process and cut through the BS, but I've painted the reality.

Yes, I do try to slow my customers down when they get forceful with me. Everyone ends up happier that way in the end.

Which is why I game you guys into thinking that you are in control of the transaction. Car salesmen crave control, so I let them think they have it. You can think that you're "slowing me down" all you like...but you're not.

Here's a great article from Edmunds that is long but worth a read, if but for the insights it gives about how sales people look at us, the customer: "Confessions of a Car Salesman"

jpnewt

If it takes you 3 hours to buy a car your in the wrong place anyway. With the Internet available and New car pricing available on it, why should you be at a dealer for that long. Your attitude towards salespeople is Pathetic, NOT every salesperson is like the other, it's like Me saying You are out to get me or your rude because you do this for a living and everyone knows that you are a Jerk because that's your Profession. Yes there are still game players in the car business and old schoolers but we are not all that way. By the way rules of 78 went out about 3 years ago so you need to update your New Car Buying Methods.

socala4

If it takes you 3 hours to buy a car your in the wrong place anyway.

I've changed a few points to not make it totally obvious what I really do. (FWIW, my last car purchase didn't take all that long, and based upon what I've read on various forums, I paid far less than most other people.)

Your attitude towards salespeople is Pathetic, NOT every salesperson is like the other, it's like Me saying You are out to get me or your rude because you do this for a living and everyone knows that you are a Jerk because that's your Profession.

Car salesmen are trained to control and confuse customers. If you're different, that's great, but if you're such a nice guy, then why not offer a price a few hundred bucks over invoice, plus hand over all of any dealer rebate money right after a customer walks in the door? Until you do that, expect a little fun from guys like me.

By the way rules of 78 went out about 3 years ago so you need to update your New Car Buying Methods.

Not in my neck of the woods, they didn't. But since you seem to know that the Rule of 78 isn't great for car buyers, feel free to explain what it is so that others know how to avoid it.

isellhondas

"Yellow Journalism" at it's best but not all stores operate that way. You have never confirmed that you are in So. Calif but if you are, that explains things. There are decent stores there too but a lot more that are the opposit.

jpnewt

If you're different, that's great, but if you're such a nice guy, then why not offer a price a few hundred bucks over invoice, plus hand over all of any dealer rebate money right after a customer walks in the door?

socala4 Believe it or not it is that simple. I'm in a Employee Owned Company that has a customer retention rate in the 80% to 85% range. That's because we do make it simple and have a Service department to back up our Dealership that actually drives sales even more from customers who may have bought elsewhere but tried our Service dept. Average length of Sales staff is 8 years and we do not run from our customers if they have any problems. In fact YOU would NEVER meet a Sale Manager because we build relationships with our Clients. Something you will never have because of the way you treat "Car Guys".

But since you seem to know that the Rule of 78 isn't great for car buyers, feel free to explain what it is so that others know how to avoid it.

It's called simple interest loans and the only financing we use here in our neck of the woods. Rules of 78 mean that your payments are used to pay off interest borrowed in the first couple years of the loan and makes it difficult to trade your vehicle early and gives you really no advantage for paying off the loan say in it's 3rd or 4th year where as a simple interest loan spreads it over the entire loan.

socala4

In fact YOU would NEVER meet a Sale Manager because we build relationships with our Clients.

If you folks offer the lowest price in town and will drop to a price close to invoice, less rebates, incentives, etc., without a fight or gimmicks, then people like me would beat a path toward your door. But so far, I've not seen this dealership.

Rules of 78 mean that your payments are used to pay off interest borrowed in the first couple years of the loan and makes it difficult to trade your vehicle early and gives you really no advantage for paying off the loan say in it's 3rd or 4th year where as a simple interest loan spreads it over the entire loan.

A good, fair explanation. Thanks for that, that surely helped some people here.

jpnewt

If you folks offer the lowest price in town and will drop to a price close to invoice, less rebates, incentives, etc., without a fight or gimmicks, then people like me would beat a path toward your door. But so far, I've not seen this dealership.

I see the game you play even within your last blog. Even if I offer you a fair price close to invoice less ALL incentives in the first 10 minutes, you will still sell me down the river for $50.00 from someone else who you have to work for 3 hours. Is that right? YES or NO?

Were you suprised that a Salesperson actually knew what rules of 78 meant? And I hope it did help someone out there.

isellhondas

If you folks offer the lowest price in town and will drop to a price close to invoice, less rebates, incentives, etc., without a fight or gimmicks, then people like me would beat a path toward your door. But so far, I've not seen this dealership.

Why should anyone do that? A car dealership is in business to make money. It takes, literally, millions of dollars to open a car dealership and many, many thousands of dollars of overhead every month to keep it up and running.

Now, can this PLEASE get back on topic?

mikefm58

In an environment like So. Cal. you have the right approach. But not all are like that, especially the folks in the biz like Isell that monitor these fora. I do agree with your approach if you know the dealer is like that before hand and I also do use exactly the methods you described if I'm negotiating with a dealer who has those screamer ads on TV.

Once I told one of the Toyota screamer dealers I'll give you $X for that Highlander so my monthly payment will be $Y per month. He got all excited and his eyes went wide open thinking he just hit the lottery and said I'll be right back. After he ran my credit report he said, no problem, let's close.

Then I had him go over all the details of the financing, it was so funny watching his ego deflate as I told him, finance this for 4 yrs not 7, and at 5%, not 10%, etc. etc. And before he knew it, it was a mini for him.

I kinda shot myself in the foot because the vehicle sold to someone else before we finished and they didn't have anything else close and I didn't want to wait. No problem though as I ended up buying from another dealer 15 miles away who was so great to work with a month later I bought a new Tacoma from him too.

You can usually tell what kind of dealer they are just from their ads.

golic

then why not offer a price a few hundred bucks over invoice, plus hand over all of any dealer rebate money right after a customer walks in the door?

Hey, while were at it, lets ask the grocery store to do the same? And my guess is the cable company is making money on me too...lets ask them for it back.

I think what is getting lost here, is that this is a free market society and grocers, cable companies, and yes even car dealers have the right to maximize their profits.

And guess what WE HAVE A CHOICE - *nodnod* no one is forcing us to buy a car from that DEALER, if you think it is overpriced then you are more than welcome to find another car or another dealer who will.

The key here is we want a "fair" negotiation and not to get duped, just like something similar to the rule of 78s, which was outlawed by congress more than a decade ago for loans in excess of 61 months *smirk*

I would doubt you see this "gimmick" at a new dealership, unless of course you fall into a subprime loan catagory, which then I would ask, if your credit is so bad you either shouldnt be financing a new car or at worst why should the lender not be afforded a premium for offering credit to a candidate who can not get traditional financing?? *shrugs*

Lets get back to talking about 'the issues' rather than who we are and what we think others are...*eyeroll*

socala4

I see the game you play even within your last blog. Even if I offer you a fair price close to invoice less ALL incentives in the first 10 minutes, you will still sell me down the river for $50.00 from someone else who you have to work for 3 hours. Is that right? YES or NO?

I have a target price in mind, and if you meet it, I will pay it. I'm not going to waste my time looking for a better offer if you give me the very lowest price available.

So the answer is NO. But I will walk if I don't get my price, or if your closer attempts to add even $10 to the price or shove in insurance or a bunch of add-ons that I don't want. I won't be bait-and-switched or given the Otis treatment (Otis makes elevators, and elevators go up) by anyone.

jpnewt

Sorry guys what was the topic anyway? lol

snakeweasel

Car sales are a game, and I play along with it.

Therein lies the problem. Dealerships and salespeople play that game all day long day in and day out. People like me and you play that game once in a blue moon. You go in with the attitude of "I'll happily drag them through the mud" all you do is get muddy too. They can easily out do you by shear experience.