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Why don't GM, Chrysler & Ford build high MPG vehicles?
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Rocky
I will bet you a Big Mac I can name more Toyota models that accomplish the same feat.
And certainly as a percentage of the fleet, by model or by number of sales, both Honda and Toyota blow the General out of the water as far as over-30-mpg goes. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Remember we have established that Toyota vehicles in real world mileage are not very close to the EPA estimates. I will not speculate on the reasons. I do know that the Malibu gets closer to the EPA than the Camry, by real world drivers. Toyota trucks & SUVs are poor on mileage compared to GM.
And I'm surprised he didn't reply.
My car, an '02 Echo, gets me 40 mpg around town and was rated 34/41. My truck, an '00 4Runner, gets me around 19.5 mpg week in and week out, originally rated 16/20. It gets me 22-23 mpg on the highway, while the Echo can break 45+ out on the interstate without a sweat.
My previous Toyota, an '03 Matrix automatic, was rated 27/33 and got me 31-32 mpg around town all the time.
An '02 Celica I had before that was also rated 27/33 IIRC, and got me 31 mpg all the time.
My previous 4Runner, a miled-up '90 V-6 4WD, got me 18.5 mpg on the tires it came with new, and 16.5 after I put oversize tires on it. That truck was also rated around 16/20 or 15/19, something like that, when it was new.
You may have established something about the fuel economy of Toyotas generally speaking, But I cannot agree that it matches my experience with multiple vehicles.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Now I didn't realize you were talking about hybrids, because the remarks I first took exception to made no mention of hybrids. But it is true that the very design of Toyota's HSD system lends to its ability to fool the EPA mileage tests into falsely high readings.
Still, after all the fooling is done, the Prius is pulling 47 mpg for average drivers, significantly better than even competing diesels, and way better than all competing gas cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
We are both correct.
Rocky
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sometimes we gotta win at something so badly, we can justify a way to win.
Rocky
Rocky
But yes, I foresee great things for the GMT900 hybrids, if early reports bear out in the real world. So far, it would seem people will buy hybrid cars but will not buy hybrid SUVs (Escape and Highlander gathering dust) unless they are luxury brands (wait lists for the Lexus RX400H), so Escalade should pay the General back handsomely for spending the development money.
Meanwhile, Ford's highest-mpg model is the Focus with the 2.0 (34 mpg), GM's champ is the Aveo (35 mpg), and the best Chrysler can do is the Caliber (32 mpg). Honda has 3 cars at 40 or more, Toyota has 4.
Or, looked at another way, the most popular models at T/H get way better mileage than the domestics. Camry gets 33 mpg in its most popular configuration (4-cyl auto) and has a 40 mpg version available. Accord gets 34 mpg in the same configuration.
Ford's most popular model is the F-150, which of course gets terrible gas mileage by most standards, and even if you look at its most popular midsize sedan (which is the Taurus, I think, because of all the fleet sales), it is way off!
Ditto Chevy, and perhaps Chrysler too? I am not sure if Ram leads Chrysler group sales, or if it is something else.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I believe you can trace the Dodge Intrepid ESX hybrid back to 1986. The Chrysler hybrid met the 80 MPG goal set for it by 1998. Chrysler did not build it because the cost difference was more than they felt the buying public would absorb.
I think the sales of Camry and Accord attest to better mileage than the domestic equivalents.
Comparing PU truck mileage to midsize cars is hardly fair. If you compare the domestic PU trucks to Japanese they are as good or better. Ford and Chevy 1/2 ton PU trucks get better mileage than either Nissan or Toyota.
When you consider both Ford and GM sell many more trucks than Toyota, Honda & Nissan sell cars. It is good that they are bringing the mileage up. If they were allowed to put diesel engines into the 1/2 ton models you would see dramatic mileage increases. I don't think it would be tough to build a 1/2 ton PU with a 5-6 cylinder diesel that would get 30+ MPG and tow as much as the current V8 gassers.
As long as buyers and the media rate cars by their 0-60 times it will be difficult to get the automakers interested in FE.
I hear you - I was trying to compare each carmaker's most popular model.
But if you consider that Ford's most popular midsize car is the Taurus, at 27 mpg highway, it's definitely off the pace in cars. Chevy does a better job, with Impala as its most popular family-size car, making 31 mpg highway, with more power than Toyota's most frugal Camry (excepting the hybrid for a minute), but a 10% deficit in combined mpg.
The thing is, the domestics often design their base models with more power than the Japanese do (certainly true of the Impala and Taurus), so that the most popular configurations of the domestics' most popular cars always make less mpg in normal driving. Once Fusion becomes Ford's most popular car (when they stop producing Taurus early next year), Ford will step up to the 30 mark too, but they sell the majority of Fusions as V-6s, so that their real-world numbers (of the cars actually sold and being driven around) are lower than they might otherwise be.
Now, why do Americans shop the domestics for V-6s and the Japanese for 4-cyl cars? I have no idea, but the converse is certainly true - the mix of V-6s among CamCords remains steady at a fairly low 20% or so of all cars sold. 4 in 5 are 4-cyl cars.
One reason might be that the domestic 4-cyl variants are fairly low on power compared to the Japanese competition, and save very little gas vs the V-6. These days, the 4-cyls at Toyota/Honda don't save that much gas vs their V-6 models either. But their 4-cylinder engines are powerful enough to be more than adequate, so that people feel less inclined to ante up the extra $$ for the V-6.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/galaxy/-/glx_specs/-/-/-/-
Why can't we have that? No hybrid needed. If you like the steering wheel on our side and you can read German, it is also available to the Germans. But to the Americans....
misunderstand a few things..first if you count all the
astro vans still going in fleets around the world, there
shouldn't be any doubt about durability..add to that
the full size savana's and there is no soft touch feel
necesary for the long lasting motors 4.3L ...GM dominates
this area..just look around and see..do you see any toys or likewise with 3 hundred thousand miles..and still going? The full size van is now the mainstay of zillions of company's..whats up with that..?well..the big GM is not going to be passed by toy any time soon..the tahoe's are dominating the SUV market..there everywhere...I look forward to you supplying whatever you have that disputes this..
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060821/SUB/60819026/1111
GM at 14% in California retail sales, Toyota at 26%.
However, in line with this thread, I question the examples of the Astro and the Savana (aren't they both now dead and buried?) as demonstrating the domestics stepping up to provide vehicles with high fuel efficiency. The Astro was an extremely tough, durable vehicle, agreed, but FE CERTAINLY wasn't one of its strong points. Those vans were trucks for people who really needed a TRUCK.
Oh, PS, yes I've seen 300K Toyotas and Hondas still going, and they weren't trucks, they were Civics and Corollas still pulling 35 mpg even after driving the equivalent of more than 12 times around the earth. Tacomas too (the 300K part, not the 35 mpg part! :-P)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My stepdad looked at the Astro when it came out way back in 1985. He was thinking about starting his own plumbing business and wanted a work truck. He liked the idea of the Astro, being smaller and more maneuverable than a real van, and theoretically more economical than a real van too.
However, the reality of it was that the 4.3 V-6 got about the same fuel economy as a 350 in a "real" van. It wasn't much less expensive. And while it had the most cargo capacity of any minivan out there at the time, it was still nowhere in the league of a real van.
He ended up getting a Chevy van. And then he got a gov't job and gave up his dream of running his own plumbing company, and I think the van got sold to a friend about 14-15 years later, with maybe 20,000 miles on it and still looking brand-new.
Oh, I know this doesn't count as ultra-high mileage, but a buddy of mine recently snagged a 1997 Saturn S-series sedan for $2500. I think it now has about 170,000 miles on it. It actually looks surprisingly good for that kind of miles. The interior fabrics have held up well. There's nothing soft-touch to warp and crack, though...everything's covered in either fabric or hard plastic. About the only nasty noise it made was a funny rattle when it was idling.
Advertised at 42mpg EPA highway.......
I got 49.9 mpg on a highway trip shortly after I bought one.
As to the Metro..... My 94 got 54mpg highway....and my current 99 (with AC) has gotten 52.9 on the highway.....
Advertised at 42mpg EPA highway.......
I got 49.9 mpg on a highway trip shortly after I bought one.
And that was with a 1.6liter Kent engine...... and Fiesta had four smaller engines at the time......but none of them were available in the US
As to the Metro..... My 94 got 54mpg highway....and my current 99 (with AC) has gotten 52.9 on the highway.....
NAME ONE NON-HYBRID car US has on the market that gets 42mpg or higher????
So mileage has gotten worse in the last 25 years.....for all US built cars.....
My next car will have to get in the 40s......and be affordable to buy.
At least the carmakers should offer engine choices....including a high-mileage engine to choose from...
The new Yaris should be able to get very close - virtually identical powertrain, and while it is 200 pounds heavier, it is also a little more aerodynamic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My boss bought a new 2006 Chevy Silverado Extended cab 2WD with the 5.3, auto. His truck is massive compared to the Dakota, and gas mileage at worst is better than my best.
Some are better than others, of course. All manufacturers lay eggs here and there.
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GM, has more fuel efficient cars getting over 30 mpg than even Toyota, and when they get the 2-mode hybrid on board SUV's and Trucks will be able to obtain 30 mpg HWY via the Escalade test mule shown on this site a few months back which got over 30 mpg hwy
Rocky
Remember anything over 8,500 GVWR is not rated by the EPA...
How many different versions of the SAAB 9-3, 9-5 epsilon platform?
Rocky
Now ask yourself how many models any of the domestics have making an EPA-rated 40 mpg, either city or highway. I can't think of any.
Toyota has four right now, Honda has only two, if you consider the Civic hybrid separate from the gas model. Until a few months ago, they had a third - the Insight.
What is significant to me is that two of the Toyotas and one of the Hondas make that figure just using regular old 87 unleaded, without the aid of batteries and electrics, etc.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is all going to change over the next few years because GM-DCX-BMW's 2-mode hybrid is superior to the Japanese offerings.
Rocky
By the way how many of thoose 40mpg models are still in production?
Okay you got me !!!! :P I just new you'd ask that :P
Rocky
Rocky gets credit for the 1992 Saturn SC, a car with no equipment and no power, that made 40 mpg highway I believe. Of course, (A) it has been out of production for some time, and no Saturn has been rated 40 or better in at least a decade, and (B) the SC's peers at the time made 45-50 mpg, like the Civic HF/VX/HX, Corolla FX, etc.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070124/AUTO02/701240347/- 1148/AUTO01
Rocky
While ethanol will make us less dependent on foreign oil, since we can grow lots of corn, it is at best a stopgap, since not much of our consumption of foreign oil can be replaced by it.
And of course, it is just one more crutch for ALL the automakers to lean on that won't reduce the energy use of the American fleet at all. At least GM and Honda never gave up on hydrogen-based powertrains and both have a plug-in hybrid in the works as well.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Rocky
It does reduce smog-forming pollutants in the air, which is good. Whether we should achieve that goal at the expense of increased energy use and greenhouse emissions is a topic for the public forum.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In 2005, I wanted a Chrysler 300 AWD with several options. The only way to get some of those options was to buy the 300C, a gas gussling hemi that averages only 17 mpg in my mixed use. The same options should have been available with the six cylinder!
And wouldn't it be great to NOT pay farmers NOT to plant vast acres, and instead pay them for fuel?
Namely, they now specify they are the leader in the number of truck models that get over 20 mpg highway (they actually SAY highway in the ad now, I like that), and they beat Honda and Nissan in number of car models making 30 mpg highway (they say highway again there, I like that too!:-)).
Now of course, with a gazillion divisions to Honda and Nissan's two apiece, GM doesn't have to produce very many 30-mpg powertrains to beat H&N in number of models exceeding that rating, but it is specific, and it is true.
IMO, and echoing ux149 above, 30 mpg aint that impressive. Certainly not to me. Also, Honda could counter with an ad saying that the number of Accords it sells with the 4-cyl powertrain each year (making 34 mpg highway) exceeds the sales of ALL GM's models making the same figure. So even though GM has more models, Honda sells way more CARS making 30+ mpg. Personally, I think the bar for all of them should be 40 mpg these days.
Toyota has four models currently making 40 mpg, Honda has two, now with the Altima hybrid just released, Nissan has one also. Given their histories, all three of these carmakers should have more, although I understand Nissan's focus since Ghosn's arrival has been away from its roots and more towards flash and horsepower.
Chrysler, GM, Ford, no models rated at 40 mpg that I can think of.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Rocky