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Comments
There should be more and more coming on the used market. Not many people want to get stuck with a dead battery after the warranty runs out.
The the plug-in Prius served its purpose as a proof of concept and as an instrument that raised public awareness about PHEVs.
With GM sounding more definite on its production date for the Volt your wait might only be 3 years. GM has also been stating that they might have to lease the battery packs in order to meet their target price for this vehicle, which I believe is $25k or less. That would be fine with me because the battery pack is the one component that could potentially see the biggest technological advances in the near future. So when your lease ran out on the original pack in all likelihood you'd be replacing it with something significantly better, which you might have wanted to do anyway.
It's interesting that Toyota has been releasing statements lately regarding delays in incorporating Li-ion in their next generation of hybrids. They claim the technology is just not there and won't be for several years. At the same time GM is very upbeat about the progress of their battery development. I do know that the chemistry used in A123 System's batteries is fundamentally different than the Li-ion batteries being developed for Toyota by Matsushita Electric. I also know that Toyota owns something like a 40% share in Matsushita, which probably makes them somewhat reluctant to pay for someone else's proprietary technology.
The Japanese carmaker and French utility are due next week to announce an agreement to develop electricity infrastructure to serve the plug-in cars Toyota plans to roll out in a few years’ time. Only a few cities, London among them, have recharging points.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/34c16568-57e8-11dc-8c65-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.ht- ml?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F34c16568-57e8-11dc-8c65-00007- 79fd2ac.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.search.yahoo.com%2Fnews%2Fsearch%3Fp%3- DGM+Volt
What if CalCars can do the 12,000 PHEV Prius conversion to:
All the OLD Priuses over 200K miles which have failing or failed batteries and have been traded in for little or no value by the last owner?
For example, what if all those cars could be converted to PHEVs and sold as a used car for $12,000 ?
Would people spend $12K for an older Prius which has now been given new birth as a PHEV and which now gets about 100 miles per gallon?
I think they would.
http://www.hybrids-plus.com/ht/products.html
I don't think the quoted prices include substituting the main traction battery, but rather supplemental batteries. So it would depend upon the cost of the traction batteries. Let us assume (without true numbers) that it would be an additional 3K.
So take another look at the money - if it costs $15K for a converted model (without EPA warranty guarantees of 150K / 10 years on the batteries), and costs 21K for a new vehicle, which one would people choose?
Don't look at me, I agree with you. I was responding to someone else suggesting conversions might help with the issue of what to do with a hybrid after the traction battery warranty expired.
Looking forward to all your comments!
Well if you are going to perform this conversion on a Prius it certainly makes more sense to do it to one that's already outside it's warranty.
Understood where the traction battery is concerned. However the Prius hybrid control system has a lot of expensive parts - just ask anyone who has had to replace the main display on the dash. It is more complicated to run a dual power hybrid powertrain, and if something is wrong with the electric side, the HSD will not allow the car to move.
The point is that a converted Prius still has a far greater risk of expensive repairs ,even with a new traction battery, than a comparable ICE vehicle of the same age. YMMV, obviously.
I'm not a big fan of the dual power train simply because it represents added complexity. However any hybrid that doesn't use a dual power train probably isn't technically a hybrid. I don't think that GM is referring to it's Volt as a plug-in hybrid but rather as an EV with a range extender.
I was referring to ICE for comparison, although some case could be made for the IMA, in which the two portions of the power train are pretty much exclusive - the IMA can move the car without the electric propulsion available.
Ford Developing 100MPG Escort Hybrid
Posted Sep 25th 2007 11:13AM by Tim Stevens
Filed under: Car Tech, Green Tech
Ford Developing 100mpg Plug-In Escort?Back in July, we reported that Ford was working with Southern California Edison to research plug-in hybrid and electric cars. That partnership is bearing fruit already with talk of the reborn Escort badge being slapped onto a compact plug-in hybrid car. Plug-in hybrids allow you to charge the car overnight before heading for work so you can make your commute on battery power (depending on length of commute, of course). This could result in EPA ratings of 100mpg -- or more.
The Escort was for a long time Ford's ubiquitous compact, but the car manufacturer replaced it in the '90s with the hipper Focus. With the Focus growing in size and weight age, there's room for a new, smaller car in Ford's range. The plug-in version is currently slated for release as a 2011 model, meaning you may be able to cruise to work emissions-free by late 2010.
"UPDATE: It seems this rumor just was too good to be true after all. Ford has indicated that they are indeed not working on a plug-in hybrid version of the Escort."
hydrogen highway
WSJ Article
Toyota had planned to use lithium-ion batteries in a new version of the Prius that would get 60 to 80 miles per gallon, according to Toyota engineers. But the safety problems prompted Toyota to push back the planned launch of the lithium-ion technology from later this year to late 2010 or early 2011.
"It doesn't matter how far ahead you are in research and development" because all lithium-ion batteries are prone to overheating, no matter what chemistries you use, he contends. "Clever design can minimize the chances for overheating. But if you don't have fool-proof manufacturing know-how, you won't be able to guarantee 100% the safety of a battery cell, no matter how safe it may be proven in the lab."
Car makers can't very well sell vehicles that might "ignite and burn up grandma and two kids sitting on half a ton of batteries in the car," says Tim Spitler, a battery-material researcher at Altair Nanotechnologies, which is working to develop a car battery.
Toyota announced at the NAIAS their plans to offer a plug-in Prius by 2010. It seems the people at Toyota aren't talking to each other. It is also interesting that just 2 years ago Toyota was adamently opposed to PHEVs. Toyota's particular hybrid system really isn't well suited for a PHEV application. You can program it to run in electric only mode but the electric motor isn't adequately sized to be the sole source of propulsion. I think we'll see 0-60 times of around 20+ seconds and a vehicle that is totally incapable of climbing any kind of grade without the ICE kicking in.
That statement by the Altair researcher is baffling. They've already delivered quite a few battery packs to Phoenix Motorcars. Is he saying that these battery packs are unsafe? Regardless, I don't think that a fuel tank is 100% safe either. For that matter driving in general isn't 100% safe. It's a matter of acceptable risk.
Plug-in Prius
It sounds like the researcher is concerned about his invention. He wants to sleep at night knowing his battery does not incinerate someone. I know you are very familiar with batteries. I worked on big batteries in Telephone offices. They are nothing to take lightly. I saw a 12 inch crescent wrench vaporize across the office from me when an inexperienced installer went across the + & - terminals. He was lucky to get only minor burns.
I think that we are a ways yet from the best battery design. Sounds like Toyota and GM are of the same mindset. Companies like Phoenix or Tesla just want to sell something. They can fold if anything bad happens. Toyota and GM do not have that luxury.
I think that battery technology, like most technologies, will keep evolving so that we will never really have the optimum or best battery. All we need to get started is an acceptable battery. The amount of money being poured into battery development by people far more knowledgeable than myself is a reason to be encouraged.
I believe that enough safeguards can be built into these battery packs that the risk of fire is no greater than with a gas tank. People seem to feel comfortable sitting on 15 gallons of gasoline. If I were to guess I'd say GM's biggest concerns are cost and longevity. They are currently subjecting battery packs to rigorous testing, trying to simulate 10 years of use in 2 years. Toyota probably did delay Li-ion in the Prius out of safety concerns. But as has been mentioned several times Toyota was trying to use the same chemistry that is used in laptops. My understanding is that they are now pursuing a Li-ion chemistry similar to what GM plans to use, which has a much lower risk of thermal runaway.
2010 is not that far away. For GM and Toyota to be using this as a target date is an indication to me that they have a fairly high level of confidence that the required battery technology is close at hand. Of course neither GM or Toyota is guaranteeing this date but from a PR perspective I'm sure they'd very much like to meet it. In fact I get the sense that it has become somewhat of a competition between the two companies, which is good for people anxious to see this type of vehicle on the market.
It will be interesting to see if Honda and Nissan jump on board and announce plans for their own PHEVs. Both companies recently dismissed these types of vehicles as impractical and with very narrow appeal to consumers. I hear these comments from Honda and am surprised they ever produced the Insight or the NSX.
saturn vue
Define FAR. Anway, GM's press releases indicate they plan on using a Li-ion battery pack in the Saturn Vue PHEV.
Alternate Route commented on The Target
I agree. These companies are competing for a very lucrative prize, so they're highly motivated. And it's not like improvements will halt once GM decides on a battery for the Volt. I believe battery development will be a very dynamic field for quite some time.
Here's an interesting article on new Li-ion battery technology. Sounds like it's still off in the distant future but if it ever makes it's way to EVs a 200 lb battery pack could provide a range of around 400 miles.
nano Li-ion
Toyota would not put 1 million PLUS hybrids on the road with dangerous, self-combusting batteries. That would be corporate suicide.
And with 40+ Billion dollars in the bank, Toyota is not likely to commit Hari-Kari any time soon...............
Even public recharging stations that are used during the day don't need to be drawing from the grid at that time. These stations could have their own, very large, bank of batteries that was charged at night and would now be drawn on to recharge vehicles. Altairnano has already developed and delivered a 1 mega-watt-hour battery that could be used for this purpose.
I haven't lived in CA for quite some time. Do they still have rolling blackouts?
Absolutely not, it only makes sense. However for utilities to be interested in this new customer implies that they have available product to sell. To hear some people talk you'd think that wasn't the case.
The utility companies' position is that this vast amount of excess capacity at night represents an untapped resource. Right now it also represents an inefficient use of the utility's assets since they have to keep these power plants running at night even though they aren't selling much electricity. Also, the more kilowatt-hours a plant can sell the quicker it will pay for itself. Theoretically this could drive down the cost of electricity since part of that cost goes to recouping the initial investment. I'm not holding my breath on that one.
There are a lot of knowledgeable groups promoting EVs and PHEVs that have a very good understanding of the grids present and future capacities. Not all of these groups have a financial interest in promoting this technology. The basis of this argument against EVs seems to be very simplistic. We've had brown-outs therefore that proves there is no available electricity to charge these vehicles. I guess we'll be finding out who's right in the not too distant future.
I just scrutinized my latest SDG&E bill. There is no lower rate any time of day or night. It is a progressive rate. The more you use the higher the rate per KWH. The base lowest rate is up to 380 KWH. It starts at a little over 11 cents per KWH. My top rate last month was over 19 cents per KWH. There are some other charges all on a progressively higher scale. So yes they may want us to use more especially at night. It would not save me any money whether I plug in during the day or night. My Hawaii electric bill is also progressive only much higher KWH rate.
It looks to me like we would be paying a much higher rate for charging our EV.
PS
A lot of generation is shut down during low draw periods. That is when maintenance is performed. The utility where I worked only brought generators up to meet the load. On diesel engines it is not good to run without a load. Not sure how they do with coal fired steam turbines.
I don't think that power plants can efficiently shut down. They can reduce their production but not to a level that matches demand. So there is some waste involved.
evs
http://www.valence.com/technology/safety_video.html#
Interesting video. I guess you would be running a real risk driving your Tesla on the LA freeways with all the random bullets flying around.
I'm still waiting to hear the pricing. I don't think it will be cheap.
Pardon me if this has been addressed, but Li-Ion is known for allowing around 500 charge/discharge cycles before they start to lose their capability to hold a charge. I have also noticed that if you leave a Li-Ion plugged in (like a laptop), it will hold not a charge as well, but that could be addressed by making sure that the battery was not constantly topped off.
This is in contrast to NiMh, which do not have any such issues.
Sure, they have high energy density, but for how long?
A123 batteries