Will Detroit Ever Regain The Middle Market?

hpmctorque

The Camry, Accord, and, recently, the Sonata now control the lucrative and strategically important sweet spot of the family car market, replacing the once dominant mid and high-level trim Chevys, Fords, Plymouths, as well as the Pontiac Catalina, Olds 88, Buick LeSabre, Mercurys and Dodges. What are the chances that such models as the Chevy Malibu and Impala, Pontiac Grand Prix, Buick LaCrosse and Lucerne, Saturn Aura, Ford Fusion and 500, Mercury Milan and Monterey, Chrysler Sebring and 300, and Dodge Stratus and Charger will eventually take the sales crown back from the best selling Asian models?

I believe this is an important challenge if the domestic manufacturers are to avoid becoming niche players. It seems to me that while not all of the domestic models need to be huge sellers, some will have to achieve comparable volumes to their leading Asian counterparts for GM, Ford, and the Chrysler component of Daimler-Chrysler to succeed long-term. Your thoughts?

The rapidly growing markets outside North America must be included in a comprehensive discussion, of course, but this discussion is about North America only.

wonderwall

I think a major issue for domestic automakers is that so many Gen Xers and Gen Yers grew up with the perception of American cars being inherently inferior in terms of reliability to Japanese cars and inferior in terms of style and driving dynamics to European cars. These perceptions are-- let's face it-- based on fact. Those individuals of my age that I know who bought domestic vehicles did so on one factor and one factor alone-- they couldn't afford anything else. All of them appear to have the sense that they settled for an inferior car. In our area, domestic cars frequently appear to be sold at prices below even the Korean makers (just bought an Elantra and probably could've gotten a Cobalt for a little less) once you factor in all of the incentives and so forth.

I think it's an major uphill battle for domestic car makers to capture our market. In any sales situation, perception is everything. I do feel, having ridden in domestic vehicles and driven a few for short periods of time, that the perception is correct. In the end, when I bought a car -- and I prefer driving compacts-- the only domestic car in that class that didn't look and drive like a pile of random parts thrown together was the Ford Focus and I didn't want to buy that because of what I know of it's reliability history. At that point, I wound up buying a Mazda PR5 and loved it until it was totalled and I wound up being sold on this Hyundai (desired, but couldn't quite afford a Mazda 3). I think as the Koreans begin to prove themselves more and more with quality products, we may see dmestic cars fall further and further behind because they will have no advantage. It's kind of sad, but look around, I think we're beginning to see that it is true, as goes General Motors, so goes America. I mean, at risk of being incindiary, look at who is running this country right now...

john_324

I think the "perception" point is spot-on.

It's one of the big reasons why Detroit sells as many middle-ground cars as they do these days...older consumers who remember the firms from their glory days, and still have the perception that American cars are the best out there. After all, these consumers remember when the time when Japanese cars were inferior and cheaply-made, and seemed like utter wastes of money compared to solid and dependable American vehicles. Neither situation is the case anymore, but try telling that to your old Uncle Fred, who's still angry that Oldsmobile is gone... ;-)

wonderwall

my grandfather recently bought a 1998 Camry, but at the beginning of his search, he was a little perplexed because Olds was, for the most part, out of the running because he didn't want to buy an orphan. My grandmother convinced him to buy her a 1989 Honda Accord about 15 years ago, but he put up tons of resistance because of Pearl Harbor. I remember telling him, "I think they paid for that many dozens of times over at Nagasaki and Hiroshima." He wound up loving the car and its "sporty" driving dynamics and to replace his dying 1988 Olds 98, he bought the Camry and is in LOVE. They still have that Accord. Something like 150,000 miles and it's just now starting to nickle & dime them, mostly cosmetically. He's still marvelling at the fact that the digital clock in it still works perfectly.

carlisimo

At this point... if Detroit does a great job, they'll regain a fair share of the market. But to take control of the market again, the other players would have to really drop the ball. All at the same time. Simultaneously with strokes of brilliance from GM, Ford, and/or Chrysler. What are the odds of that?

I also don't think "the domestics" will share equal fates. Sure they have things in common (past mistakes, truck dependence, UAW), but they're taking different paths (especially globally). Just in the same way that "the imports" operate as a unit, either. It's just an easy, simpleton division for us to make...

perna

GM and Ford really screwed themselves with two entirely different generations.

Baby boomers: 100% crap product in the 70s and 80s. Many of those cars were so bad, people twitch when they talk about their 1982 Dodge Aries K.

Gen X: The SUV craze in the 90s. They put zero dev money into anything that didn't stand a mile above traffic and have 4WD, so what are people who hate trucks like myself supposed to buy.

The answer for both generations was imported cars, mostly Japanese, all vastly better than their American competition. Back in '03, I bought my aspirational car at the time, which was a Nissan Maxima. No American mfg in early '03 had a car that came close.

And you know what? In the past 3 years, the Nissan has proved itself to be the best car I've ever owned. Guess what my next car is going to be? Oh sure, I'll test drive anything I perceive to be serious competition to my car, but it is entirely possible that I will be a lifelong Nissan customer based on how incredible this car is. Their stock will certainly be heads above all others when I'm out shopping. Any GM or Ford will have to blow me away to get me to switch, and the slow/dull Five Hundred or boring Impala is going to get me to take a look.

At 32 years old, I am a Gen-Xer, and as such have many car buying years in front of me. It was Gm and Ford's obsession with SUVs at the expense of their car lines that cost them my business - for the sake of their businesses and America, I hope they turn the corner.

bumpy

that the domestics DO have a competitive share of the midsize sedan market, but that they dilute that position by spreading it through half a dozen models and a bazillion trimlines, rather than one model and three trims like their Asian competitors do.

carlisimo

They do sell a large number of cars, but they haven't made much money on them. Giving up profits has kept their numbers high. That's fine in terms of market share and presence, but it's a downward spiral of red ink.

john_324

Chevy's "most popular car in America" or whatever tagline is ringing increasingly hollow these days. I laugh every time I see it...talk about fiddling while Rome burns...

wonderwall

and i alluded to it in my first post, i feel less of a stigma driving my Hyundai than if I had a Chevrolet or a Pontiac. GM, in particular, seems to carry a big stigma in cars with young people. But then again, me and most of my friends eat sushi, majored in the Humanities or Social Sciences and voted for the smart guy in 2004, so we're probably "unAmerican".

rockylee

The smart guy in 2004 ? :confuse: LOL Was there one :surprise:

Rocky

rockylee

My question is will there be such a thing called the Middle Market in 20 years ? :sick:

Rocky

ubbermotor

Columbia was once America's best selling brand. 20 years ago Oldsmobile sold more cars than Ford (1985 1165649 vs 1149427). Five years ago Cadilliac finished its 50th consecutive years as America's luxury car leader (in sales). In 1975 Chrysler had 2 distict models for the first time ever, in 2005 they sold more cars than Dodge. I've been following the auto industry for nearly 30 years, I know better than to try and predict what its going to do in 5.

rockylee

Do you think if GM loses the #1 spot, do you think it could regain it's crown again ?

General Motors vs. Toyota

It's sound like a great prize fight. Peter Manfredo Jr. vs. Sergio Mora

I personally think if GM loses it's crown in 2006, GM Will win it's title back in a rematch in 2007'

GM will be "undisputed" Champion in 2007' and knockout Toyota for good. :shades:

Well that's the way I have dreamed it up

Rocky

dieselone

Do you think if GM loses the #1 spot, do you think it could regain it's crown again ?

Can = yes

Will = beats me, not if they continue to operate as they have the past few decades.

grbeck

wonderwall: "But then again, me and most of my friends eat sushi, majored in the Humanities or Social Sciences and voted for the smart guy in 2004..."

If you believe that, you really do need to get out more...

Incidentally, according to a recent news story, the most cross-shopped brand with Hyundai is...Chevrolet. So there must not be too much stigma associated with owning a Chevrolet among Hyundai intenders and buyers.

carguy58

"Gen X: The SUV craze in the 90s. They put zero dev money into anything that didn't stand a mile above traffic and have 4WD, so what are people who hate trucks like myself supposed to buy."

I am a generation Xer myself being 26 years old and your're right in the 90's American Car Companies forgot about cars and just concentrated on SUV's. I grew up on GM and Ford cars because my parents always owned them and yes they are boomers. When I bought my first car I stayed away from American Cars because of perception(bad reliability.) I bought a Mazda 626. My second time of buying a car I stayed away from Detroit makes and even Toyota because of looks. Again I bought an Acura CL. I am a big Mazda and Honda guy and I just don't care for Domestic Big 3 cars. I mean Chrysler is the best domestic that Detroit has to offer. I still don't think I would buy a Chrysler over a Mazda or a Honda right now even though Chrysler has some great products stylewise right now and their interiors aren't half bad either.

lemko

I'll be 41 in May, so that must make me a "proto-GenX'er."

I grew up on Ford and Chevrolet cars because my parents and grandparents always owned them. Dad was from the generation between the "Greatest" and "Boomers" and Mom was among the first Boomers. When I bought my first car I immediately went straight to General Motors because of perception,(extremely good reliability.) and bought a Buick Special Deluxe. The perception was true! I went back to Buick and got a Park Avenue! I am a big Cadillac and Buick guy and just don't care for imported cars. Lexus is the best the imports have to offer but I wouldn't choose a Lexus over a Cadillac or a Buick even though Lexus has some great products reliability-wise and their interiors are really nice.

fintail

I'll be 29 soon...so I am a late Xer I think. My parents are older than most my age, pre-boomer. They were pretty loyal to big 3 cars when I was growing up, and they had more than a couple lemons. Because of that, I have a jaundiced eye, especially towards middle market domestics. Fall-apart Blazer, Clunky Ciera, Tauri that ate both head gaskets and trannies, we had em all. I have a suspicion my experiences are mirrored by many my age.

rockylee

I'll be 29 soon...so I am a late Xer I think. My parents are older than most my age, pre-boomer.

:surprise:

29 ? Whoa. I thought you were in your 40's based on your broad knowledge of older cars :P

Rocky

fintail

I have mature tastes I guess

carguy58

"I am a big Cadillac and Buick guy and just don't care for imported cars. Lexus is the best the imports have to offer but I wouldn't choose a Lexus over a Cadillac or a Buick even though Lexus has some great products reliability-wise and their interiors are really nice."

You seem to be more into "traditional luxury brands" if you know what I mean like Caddy, Buick, and Lexus. I was wondering if you like a car like the Volvo S60 or a Mercedes since you seems more into traditional luxury brands. You don't seem like the type of person that would be into sport luxury brands like Acura, Infinti, or BMW. I don't think judging by your tastes you would like a car like a Pontiac Solstice. How do you feel about Caddy;s Art & Science styling theme like with the CTs for example?

lweiss

I am in my late 50s (baby boomer) and one of the things characteristic of my generation is that we want to think young and do things like younger people- hence all of the cosmetic surgery, dieting, Viagara (Haha), buying things like that- and not to be associated as an old fogey. So for me, even my current 1998 Volvo S-70 seems old- my next car will be a Mazda 6 Speed, maybe the new Nissan Altima, an Acura TL will be a contender. GM models- no way, my kids (all in their 20's) would laugh me out of town.

And I don't think I am alone. I've read that the Honda Element, designed for young people, has a sizeable following with baby boomers. And we can afford what we want to buy.

lemko

I was always very much into traditional luxury cars, even when I was very young. I don't care much for Volvo, but I could see myself in a Mercedes S-Class if the maintenance and repair costs and recent concerns about reliability didn't scare me off. A Pontiac Solstice is a nice toy for a nice sunny day or two, but I can't see myself purchasing one. I kind of like Cadillac's Art & Science theme because they had to do something in face of the challenge by the imports and it seems to be working. Lincoln is so far behind Cadillac and the imports it's not funny. Ten years or so ago, I would've liked a new Lincoln Town Car. Now it comes across more like a gussied-up Crown Victoria.

rockylee

I kind of like Cadillac's Art & Science theme because they had to do something in face of the challenge by the imports and it seems to be working. Lincoln is so far behind Cadillac and the imports it's not funny. Ten years or so ago, I would've liked a new Lincoln Town Car. Now it comes across more like a gussied-up Crown Victoria.

Isn't that the truth.

Rocky

rockylee

Off-road icon may have outlived its utility

General Motors Corp.'s Hummer H1 -- a tank-like SUV used by the U.S. military, sold to the public by GM, and reviled by environmentalists everywhere -- soon may be decommissioned.

While there is no decision yet, Hummer's new general manager, Martin Walsh, said in a few years, the slightly smaller H2 sport utility vehicle could replace the H1 as the brand's flagship model.

The H1, with fewer than 400 sales last year, is still "very important" to the brand's image as an off-road leader with iconic design, Walsh said.

"What we've found increasingly, though, is that the H2 has come to be seen by consumers as the Hummer. In their minds, that's more representative of the Hummer brand than the H1."

The comments come as Hummer is trying to broaden its appeal to consumers and as gas prices hover near $3 per gallon.

In less than 15 years on the U.S. auto market, the H1 has become a status symbol to the moneyed elite -- thanks to enthusiastic endorsements from Arnold Schwarzenegger and hip-hop artists -- and a gotta-have-it toy for hard-core off-roaders.

But its $140,000 price tag, poor fuel economy and massive size have made it impractical for many customers.

"People still like to come in and look at them, but no one buys them anymore," said Dan Frost, owner of Hummer dealerships in Detroit and Novi. "We might sell one, maybe two a year."

The H1 is based on the High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle, popularly known as the "Humvee," which was created by AM General Corp., a military contractor. It went on sale as a civilian vehicle in 1992, and was initially boosted by its exposure in the first Gulf War.

Seven years later, GM acquired exclusive ownership of the Hummer brand name, and in 2002 added the beefy H2. Last summer, the H3, a midsize SUV that achieves 20 miles per gallon, joined the lineup and now accounts for more than half of Hummer's annual sales.

In 2005, after a hurricane-fueled spike in gas prices, H1 sales fell 16 percent and H2 sales plummeted almost 30 percent -- a sign that the brand's biggest growth potential may rest in smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles.

Walsh said Hummer would consider building a pickup truck, but would not -- as the Chrysler Group's Jeep brand recently started to do -- build car-based "crossover" vehicles.

The "product expansion" planned for the Hummer brand will be based only on rugged truck frames, he said.

Aside from adding a high-performance Alpha version last year, GM has done little to change the original H1, a vehicle it markets as "the most functional off-road vehicle ever made available to the civilian market."

Perhaps that's because the ailing automaker knows it cannot afford to throw money at a vehicle with such a small audience, said Erich Merkle, an industry analyst with IRN Inc. in Grand Rapids.

"There never really has been much of a market for that vehicle, except with the ostentatious crowd."

Hummer continues to require its dealers to accept at least one H1 a year, but with fuel economy becoming a bigger concern for consumers, it may get harder to sell a vehicle that gets 10 to 12 miles per gallon.

Yet Walsh left the door open to H1's future.

"It's still a part of our plan," he said. "Beyond that, I really can't say."

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060430/AUTO01/604300342/- 1148

british_rover

That part about people IDing the H2 as the "real" Hummer is very true.

Selling Land Rovers I see a lot of H2's we actually got one stuck on our off road test track in the first two feet because the vehicle is so pathetic off road. When someone says they have a Hummer I normaly ask, "A real one or a H2."

To which they reply sometimes sounding hurt, "I have a H2 which is the real hummer not that little baby H3."

Most of them do not even know what the H1 is.

rockylee

Actually in certain situations the H2 is better because it's more nimble and atheletic. Ya know lighter on it's feet just like Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Rocky

hpmctorque

Most of the recently and soon-to-be-introduced domestic cars and trucks are positioned in the middle market. Therefore, to the extent that they succeed, Detroit will have regained relevance in the marketplace, or, hopefully not, visa versa.

hpmctorque

The Saturn Aura and '08 Chevy Malibu, the Ford Fusion and '08 Taurus, and the Chrysler 300 are strong domestic entries.

scape2

Image is what GM/Ford need to overcome with consumers. All these years of the media bashing them at every turn has not helped either. Don't get me wrong, GM/Ford have made thier mistakes, but so has Toyota and Honda. Whenever GM/Ford has a recall it is all over the headline news! If Toyota/Honda have issues it makes a small column in the back page. I have seen this over and over again. I run into people who think all GM/Ford products are pure junk and would never step foot into a dealership. Thank goodness for the internet and the free flow of information. I have linked numerous people to other sites showing them data about both GM/Ford vehicles vs Toyota/Honda vehicles and they are surprised.. :shades:

lemko

Likewise.

If all people had was the mainstream media, GM, Ford, and Chrysler would went under 10 years ago.

dtownfb

I agree that GM and Ford need to improve their image but the bashing is well deserve especially with respect to their car lineup. Both companies made bad business decisions that have finally caught up to them. Their reliance on SUV's and pickups while putting out mediocre cars has gotten them into this mess, not the media. Their obsession with selling cars in China and Europe while the North American market flounder allowed Toyota and Honda to gain market share. Look at the first quarter earnings for both companies. Both made profits overseas but lost money in the NA market. As you know you need the profits so you spend more money in the R&D phase. Without it you get products like the 04 Malibu and the Taurus (pick a year) or the Grand Am, or the Cavalier, or the L-Series, etc. Of course that is the media's fault.

Both companies are on the right track now that they both have resign that they will never have 30% of the market anymore. They are now running their companies based on 20% and 15% market share and controlling production (the key to profits). GM needs a clean launch of the '08 Malibu and for Silverado sales to remain strong. They should be fine. A smaller and leaner company but a much stronger company ready to deal with the global market. Quite honestly, who cares if they are no longer number 1. Ford needs more new products quickly. With the sales of the F150 and Explorer declining, they need more sales from their other products to make up the lost in profits. Quite honestly after the Fusion/Milan and Mustang, it is slim pickings in their current lineup. Even analysts are saying the upgrades to the 500..I mean Taurus aren't going to be enough. The decision to bring products from Europe will help (hmmmm, why does the European market have better cars then the NA market?). it's a matter of can they get the products into the dealership fast enough.

You can keep blaming the media all you want, this problem lies squarely in the laps of the decision makers at GM and Ford. BTW I owned a 2001 Malibu, the one "you knew America could build". That car exemplifies the bad decision making by GM. They not only built the Malibu but used the same parts to make the L-series and Grand Am. Guess what happened? they all had the same problems. Bad alternator, intake manifold gasket leak, bad brakes, electrical problems, etc. But of course that is the media's fault.

elroy5

I sincerely hope you (and others of your kind) keep buying American cars. Maybe they can make enough money off you, to get back on their feet. One day, who knows when, domestic auto makers could start making quality cars again. Until then, I don't make enough money to buy a car every 6 years, because it's worn out it's welcome. In my experience a 5 year old American car feels as old as a 10 year old Honda. So keep up the good fight.

hpmctorque

I think it's a case of perception lagging reality. domestic manufacturers have made great strides in closing the quality gap in the last several years, to the point where there's little, if any, difference across the product spectrum, between them and the best Japanese cars. In some cases (Buick, for example) the domestics are rated at the top. Therefore, I don't think your statement applies to the '07 models. Many people are more comfortable with Hondas and Toyotas based on old data. The point is that Hondas and Toyotas are very reliable and durable, but so are today's domestic cars.

My suggestion is to make your selection based on such factors as styling, comfort and driving dynamics, because all the major brands are good today. While in the '80s it was somewhat of a challenge to find a good car, because the bad ones outnumbered the good ones, today it's the opposite.

lemko

...if you want to see just how far GM has come, rent a Chevrolet Classic (old Malibu) and then drive one of their newer cars. I had a silver Chevrolet Classic for a week, returned it to the car rental place, and got in my girlfriend's LaCrosse. The Classic's interior was a sloppy mishmash of ill-fitting somber gray pieces made of cheap materials. The LaCrosse's interior has excellent fit and finish, a few splashes of brighwork and imitation word, and of much better quality. Judging by the Classic, it's no wonder you guys hate GM. But things are rapidly changing.

fezo

"While in the '80s it was somewhat of a challenge to find a good car, because the bad ones outnumbered the good ones, today it's the opposite."

I'd certainly agree with that part!

I'm not sure about how much the quality gap has closed. I am sure that is because I was hearing it for years when it wasn't so. I suspect now it is but now I get caught in the boy who cried wolf syndrome.

Now I have a nearly 8 year old Accord that works just fine so my next vehicle is likely coming a long time from now, but when it does I'll look at all sorts of things.

dtownfb

I agree with your example but you simply can't toss out the past. GM and Ford earned their reputation based on past cars. Honda and Toyota earned their reputation based on past cars. Both GM and Ford are building much, much better cars but so are Honda and Toyota. My bad experience with the 2001 Malibu will greatly influence my next car purchase later this year. The winner is the consumer as we have better cars to choice. In about 5 years, you won't go wrong picking a car from any of these manufacturers.

hpmctorque

Let's see, six months after the last message on this discussion, the big hope for the domestics regaining the middle market in '08 rests with the new Malibu. The Impala continues to sell well, but it will be interesting to see how the Malibu impacts Impala sales. The Saturn Aura received a lot of accolades, but sales have been rather disappointing. The addition of a four cylinder option for '08 could help .

The Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan are doing okay, sales wise, but they haven't really busted through the Asian dominated front ranks. They're solid products, and have gotten good reviews on quality, so they should continue to enjoy decent sales. The jury is still out on Taurus/Sable. The new 3.5 V6 and 6-speed automatic, plus the styling tweaks, have transformed these into excellent excellent family cars, and great values.

The Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Avenger, while better cars and better values than their predecessors, aren't cutting it with retail customers. There's talk about refreshing these on an accelerated timetable, but the time line on those changes is a couple of years away. That's a long time to depend on fleet sales to keep the factories open. Between now and the refreshings, look for creative marketing and financing, and maybe spring special editions, to appeal to retail buyers. One thing is for sure; it will be easy to rent a midsize Mopar.

So, for the near term, the '08 malibu is the next big hope.

iluvmysephia1

the new '08 Chevy Malibu are pretty good cars. If I was one lookng in this size range I'd consider either one and the one I think I would buy would be the Chevy 'Bu.

But as far as Americans buying middle-sized cars overall, it looks to be all Japanese with some Korean purchases buffeting them softly from the sides. I think the new Kia Optima is a great middle-sized car and it would be between a new Optima and a new Malibu for my buying dollars probably.

People can't seem to get over the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord and I would reallly rather buy an Optima, Malibu or even a Mazda6 before I'd sell out and buy one of those appliances. Ouch, they can't seem to design a decent mid-sized car in Toyota and Honda-land. Bodystyle-wise I'm talking here...they do absolutely nothing for me and I want my rig to do something for me in that department.

anythngbutgm

The thing is, you and others may not find the Camry or the Accord up your alley, but there are folks, including myself who have owned one after the other (I've had three in a row). A decade and a half ago, I would add the Ford Taurus to that list, right before the bungled Catfish look.

It's those folks those that are going to be tough to crack because they see no reason to go with something different. 450,000 people buy one every year. and I highly doubt .1% of them is going to even take notice of a lowly Chevrolet. Heck, they probably had a bad experience with one or two in the 90's which probably drove them to the Camry in the first place!

So I am curious as to what you find missing in those two yet find in (for example) the new Malibu? Heck, park an 08' next to a Camry especially and the profiles are identical. Size wise, the Malibu is bigger but interior volume is supposedly smaller.







This is good looking :confuse: Blech :sick:

Now on top of that, try convincing some stubborn 3 time Camry buyer that they need to switch to a Chevrolet midsize. Tell them they need to go for a car with worse depreciation, a car that is expected to cost the same amount of $$$ as a new Camry and one that hasn't had the same reliability/quality reputation to fall back on.

Tough sell if you ask me. And I'm not even an Accord/Camry owner!

hpmctorque

What do you drive, anythingbutgm?

iluvmysephia1

your pictures sell my point. IMHO(we're supposed to put this in there even though everyone knows that what we say is much more than opinion, it's fact, right?)the '08 Chevy 'Bu has a lot more going on looks-wise than either the homely, blocky 2008 Honda Accord and/or the homely 2007 Toyota Camry.

I would trust a 2008 Kia Optima, a 2008 Chevrolet Malibu and a 2008 Mazda6 entirely enough to spend anywhere from $16,494 for the Optima to upwards of $21,000-$25,000 for the Malibu's and Mazda6's.

This is all fantasy-land for myself as I much prefer my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS and it's racing getup than a mid-size car. Although the Mazda6 looks more and more like a great choice for a sporty ride and good looks. And I'm not one that likes Mazda's blocky-chunky styling etiquette, either.

anythngbutgm

S2000 in the warm, Impreza wagon in the bad months.

anythngbutgm

If I were buying in this class, I'd go for either the Mazda6 or Nissan Altima. Or even a Subaru legacy. The Accord would fall next probably tied with the Fusion/Milan, then the Camry (SE only). I'd by a much better looking Saturn Aura before I buy a Rentabu for the same money. At least that thing has a chance of holding any resale value three years down the road... And I'd buy a Sonata long before either of those.

volvomax

That is the problem in a nutshell.
The General has to do things BETTER than Toyota if it wants to win customers back.
It can't be "just" as good.
What is the incentive to change if your other choice is only "just" as good as your current one?

hpmctorque

Good choices; you've got the New England seasons covered.

elroy5

For 15 to 20 years people bought Domestic cars, sometimes two or three bad cars, and never switched to Toyota or Honda. It will not take 15 years of bad cars from Toyota and Honda, maybe just one bad car, for them to switch back to domestics. Toyota and Honda will have to stay on top of their game to stay ahead in sales. IMO, people will not be as dedicated to the Japanese makes, as many were faithful to the domestic brands. I have been loyal to Honda because of two great cars, but all it will take is one bad experience to turn me away. No slip-ups allowed.

hpmctorque

GM seems to be making some progress in reestablishing credibility in the middle market with the Chevy Impala and Malibu, and the Saturn Aura. Ford may be running in place with the Fusion and Taurus, plus the Mercury Milan and Sable, but is making little, if any, progress. Chrysler Corp. is clearly slipping with its Chrysler Sebring and Dodge Stratus, and the 300 and Charger, while still competitive, are no longer fresh and exciting.

The upshot is that GM needs to build on its momentum. Fixing Pontiac and Buick would help a lot. Ford needs to gain momentum. Maybe its plan to offer some of its successful European models will do the trick. Chrysler needs new mid range products to compete effectively.

scape2

This is one thing Americans are good at. Challenges. Ford for one is doing the right thing by dumping Jag, Aston, Range rover. Now Ford needs to dump Mecury and funell that money into Lincoln. Ford needs an image brand like Toyota has Lexus, Honda has Acura. Lincoln is prime for this. Ford needs to keep Mazda and Volvo however. Mazda is doing pretty well with its line-up, along with Volvo. Ford is stronger than the media leads the American public to believe. Markets are strong in Europe and Asia. It was announced Ford is going to be bringing many of its platforms from Europe to North America. One that is going to be a hit is the Focus. The Focus in Europe is way different than the one made for North America. The Euro Focus is a much, much nicer vehicle.

The Big 2 will be left to carry on the U.S. auto makers. GM is going to take back what Toyota took this last year. I believe it will happen in about 3-5 years. I also believe Ford will take the #2 spot back from Toyota in the next 5 - 7 years.

iluvmysephia1

bold predictions on your part, indeed. I do think that Ford is improving by leaps and bounds. And so is GM. But just how Toyota ends up is still a question mark, as far as how much of the American market they continue to take. They will hold in 2nd place after GM. Toyota's slipping, and not slowly slipping. I'm talking slip-sliding away. OK, that's mostly wishful thinking. I don't care for Toyota much. Way too much vanilla in their cake.