Honda Accord vs Ford Fusion

elroy5

Don't see many Yugos either. Sometimes, a choice can turn bad on you:( .

akirby

Ford has already said it's giving the high volume rental business to GM and Dodge and Hyundai. High rental fleet sales kill profits and resale value and doesn't help the image much, either. Now commercial fleet sales is another story.

Only about 10% or less Fusions are going to fleet and I think that's just for the first year to get the car out there and driven by folks who wouldn't otherwise drive one.

They're engineering cars that are profitable at lower volumes (like the Fusion/Milan/MKZ), not dumping into rental fleets and not putting large sums of cash on the hood to get rid of unwanted inventory (for that see Chrysler - at last count they had 50,000 2006 models still sitting at the factory).

scape2

Ford has built a car to compete with the Accord. The hurdle now is reputation/stigma that Ford needs to overcome. The Fusion has won multiple awards over the year that many don't even know about! Stratigic Visions for interior quality/fit/finish, JD powers for most impressionalbe sedan, and the latest was for reliability! And if you get out on the net and visit other forums you will come across Fusion/Milan owners with upwards of 20,000 miles! Some say thats just break-in. Granted, what are you going to say when Fusions start to hit 100,000?? with no issues??
I am not saying the Fusion is "better". But is a viable alternative and a competitor.

akirby

The biggest issues I see trying to win over import buyers are the cheap radio and hvac controls and the blocky center stack. Having the center stack flow into the console looks better and makes the interior feel more expensive.

thegraduate

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. The interior design is what lost me on the Fusion. Had too many squares, like my parents' 1984 LTD.

Happy Thanksgiving, all!

savetheland

Ford had damaged its reputation so much that it needs to go small steps to establish new reputation and do not rack up production numbers what will lead to quality problems (see Toyota and Nissan).

I hate to say that but it is good that Ford, GM and Chrysler are moving production out of USA. They cannot survive making cars in USA because in USA they are tied up with UAW and UAW still lives in 50s-60s.

Mexican workers must be proud making such a good quality products for reasonable price. They have families too and I do not why many complain about moving production to less developed countries. People in these countries work hard and deserve recognition for that. In USA everything is about “me” or “what my company (or country) will do for me” not about “what I can do for my company or country”.

scape2

blocky center stack.. Why are blocks and squares ok on the Camry then? or in the Audi interiors? Many other car companies use squares and "blocky" center stacks.. :confuse:

scape2

I have to agree with Ford/GM moving production out of country. The UAW has proven to be way to counter productive and not competitive enough. You can't pay someone $20 an hour plus benefits to hang a door on a car anylonger. This person must be flexible to hang a all 4 doors, the hood and the trunk.
The Hermi plant is known for its quality and spotless manufacturing floor. Flexibility is what manufacturers are after. Unions don't flex..

elroy5

In the Fusion, the dash looks cheap with the square cutout with plain black around the square. The Accord and Camry look like they were made to fit (integrated into) the dash, with a more flowing look. Can you see the difference? It's pretty obvious to me.

savetheland

I do not know why Fpord placed radio and especially HVAC so low and well they came from F-150. For car they should design something more stylish. The best dash is Honda, it is just more convinient.

scape2

OH Man, this is pure perception at its best. what about all those square, blocky stuff in both the Accord/Camry.

elroy5

What is square on the Accord? besides the nav. screen. Somehow I knew you would be blind to the obvious here. :confuse:

scape2

"What is square on the Accord? besides the nav. screen. Somehow I knew you would be blind to the obvious here. "

I can say the same about you.. the square vents, square buttons around the nav in the Accord.. hmm.. percpetion. It has been so beat into your head by the media that noone can make a nice interior... :confuse:

elroy5

So you think the Fusion interior design is on par with the Accord/Camry interior? You are a rare breed. This square cutout is what makes the design look cheap IMO. There are other design elements that don't appeal to me (steering wheel, guage cluster), but this is the worst part.

pat

Don't forget ... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

elroy5

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Obviously, true.

thegraduate

I thought it was in the eye of the media? :sick:

savetheland

Camry's interior sucks. You have to sit in one to understand that. There is nothing cool or convinient about it. Materials may be good but design is not. It is designed with 70-years old in mind. I would prefer Montego instead – it looks and feels more classy.

Regarding Fusion – center stack looks cheap because radio and HVAC are afterthoughts and are not integrated into dash, and besides are taken from F-150. But in general Fusion interior has more European feel than either Accord’s or Camry’s.

thegraduate

But in general Fusion interior has more European feel than either Accord’s or Camry’s.

Could you elaborate on what you mean? I know design is a personal taste thing, but the Fusion has more blocky design cues, where the Accord has a sweeping/curving dash design, like European cars, such as the Mercedes E-Class

Ford:

Mercedes:

(2003) Honda:

savetheland

By European I meant "German". It means more tight are driver oriented. Compare e.g. Audi A4 interior to TSX. Both are sold in Europe. TSX has more open cheerful interior. Audi interior is more closed, dark and tight - you feel less relaxed inside and more into driving the car. I think Ford interiors (and exteriors) are influenced by VW in big part. Gauge cluster is identical to VW layout.

elroy5

I think Ford interiors (and exteriors) are influenced by VW in big part. Gauge cluster is identical to VW layout.

Ford copied VW's layout from the Passat. Too bad they didn't copy the materials used, or the style and class.

savetheland

I meant Ford copied (as everyone else) from previous generation of VW cars. Latest generation VWs are more in Asian style.

But still on photos above you compare VW with navigation with Ford with ugly radio. Note that both Fusion and Passat has HVAC very low in dash a radios are placed also low compared with Accord and Camry. Both are square, light switch is similar, unlike Japanese cars which have it integrated into turn signal. In both door armrests are similar, but Passat's is located higher what btw is less convinient.

Regarding quality of materials - Ford makes affordable cars - it cannot price it as high as VW does (even in Europe) because VW has more brands and moved VW brand up. Skoda e.g. has pretty decent interiors - similar in quality to Ford's. And then - you compare European VW with American Ford. It is well known that Americans do not get the best and latest cars from domestic companies because all that UAW issues.

Why Ford does not want to move Mercury up - make it more like VW? Don't ask me.

scape2

of the Passat interior vs Fusion. I had a guy who has owned Audi all his years look at my Fusion interior and he even saw a "European" likeness.. Anyone have an interior pic with a Fusion and its new Nav system?

akirby

Just replace the black rectangle with a nav screen outlined in black. Doesn't look that much different.

walterquint

I must admit, I never understood the blockiness of the Fusion's interior, although I do like its dark teutonic-ness. But the Accord interior seems more swoopy and modern. Blocky interiors went out in the 80s. Ford really has a hit here. The Fusion undercuts the Accord by at least $1500, with no appreciable difference in initial quality. (I imagine the Accord will be more reliable over 5 yrs of ownership, resale value better too.) But if I needed a new car, I'd get Fusion. I couldn't afford an Accord, and the Accord is a huge target for thieves anyway.

scape2

This is one of my points. Honda/Toyota used to mean value. They have lost this advantage. Their vehicles are expensive when comparing option for option. I believe in the Future as consumers start to question this added cost it will hurt these two manufacturers. Why pay an extra $2-$4K for what?? Just to own a Honda or Toyota? Reliability is a non-factor anymore across the board with all manufacturers. Time it will only be a matter of time..

thegraduate

Eh, we paid it for the best ride/handling compromise for us, the sweetest 4-cylinder engine under $30k, best-in-class fuel economy, and the absolute best inteior (most of this, like your post, is opinion).

Why go with a dated-looking interior, less fuel economy, less power, a company with historically less resale value, fewer standard safety features, for what, $1,500?

I equipped a Fusion I-4 SEL with a 5AT, moonroof, 6-CD changer, ABS (ABS Isn't STANDARD? GEEZ!), and Daytime Running Lamps to bring its equipment to the level of the Accord EX (it still lacks things like Electronic Brake-Force Distribution, but it didn't appear to even be an option). Edmunds TMV was over $22,000 where I live.

The Accord EX TMV with Automatic is just over $23,000.

Doesn't look like a $4,000 difference to me. It wasn't when I was shopping the two vehicle either, which is why today, sitting on my nightstand, are keys to a Honda.

mach825

To me quality still matters. Reliability still matters. Consumer reports has been the best gauge I have ever found. I didn't want to believe that the Poor ratings that VW was getting was accurate. 3 VolksWagons later I am a believer. Took my last VW from the shop to the Honda dealer and have never looked back. I nicked named that manufacturer Brokewagon. They had some design stuff going on but reliability is horrible. From my experiance Fords have been a little better than VW but not a by much. :lemon:

explorerx4

are you saying the fusion does not have any features that the accord does not? :confuse:

thegraduate

The only ones I know of are AWD. Anything else can be had on the Accord. The rest are small items, that one could go back and forth on all day. The biggie for me is that ABS is OPTIONAL, stability control is UNAVAILABLE, and the cheap-looking gauges that were staring me in the face (gauges that looked no newer than the gauges in my 11 year old Accord. It wasn't the features that kept me from liking the Fusion, and the price was OK for what you got, if not great like the Sonata, but overall, the car did little to make it feel like more than a $20k car, something my new Accord does for me.

My 11 year old Accord LX.


A Ford Fusion


To me, the Fusion looks more on par with the 90s Accords.

akirby

Consumer reports has been the best gauge I have ever found....From my experiance Fords have been a little better than VW but not a by much.

CR says the Fusion is just as reliable as an Accord and more reliable than Camry. Ford's internal data also shows it being more reliable than both.

scape2

Trying to make an Accord less or equal in price to a Fusion is not doing well for your reputation... Anyone knows Honda's are just plain more expensive. Any of these prices for cars on the internet are questionable. I got my loaded Fusion SEL V6 for $23,000. I thought I did good. I look around the net and some got theirs for as low as $22,300!

This is why I have keys for a nice looking Fusion sitting on my kitchen counter!

scape2

"CR says the Fusion is just as reliable as an Accord and more reliable than Camry. Ford's internal data also shows it being more reliable than both."

The Honda/Toyota clans know about this report. They choose to ignore it, don't believe it, nooway it could be true. Even coming from a mag that over the last 15 years has bashed and trashed anything Ford/GM/Dodge. And has fully supported, touted and giggled over anything Toyota/Honda. :confuse:

thegraduate

The Honda/Toyota clans know about this report. They choose to ignore it, don't believe it, nooway it could be true.

Who are these people, why do you always talk about them, and why do we dwell on them if they aren't here? More of you being a "Ford martyr?"

elroy5

"CR says the Fusion is just as reliable as an Accord and more reliable than Camry.

Oh, now we are going by what CR (the media) says. Make up your mind please. The "media" has had it all wrong, except for this one time, it seems. Seriously.

thegraduate

Oh, now we are going by what CR (the media) says. Make up your mind please. The "media" has had it all wrong, except for this one time, it seems. Seriously.

DING DING.

Can't have it both ways and still be credible, guys.

scape2

Whoa@! now wait a minute. Even I have said this is the first time in a very loooong time I have seen anything positive from CR about anything built from Ford/GM/Dodge. CR for many, many years has been known for favoring Japanese models. There was once a forum here at Edmunds about this topic. Folks posted direct comparisons and comments from CR that showed how bias they are against anything Honda/Toyota. Maybe they are reading the internet and folks are catching on and now they are moving more to the middle ground where they should be..

savetheland

I thought it was forum for enthusiasts. Now it turns out it is attended by bunch of consumers who live and die by CR and reliability ratings. Please stop all this crap about “reliable” cars that “run forever”. Lets concentrate on more substantial issues.

thegraduate

Hey, it's a forum of buyers of midsize, mainstream, boring by auto-enthusiast standard, vehicles. You can't expect it to be all about Quarter Mile Trap Speeds and times at a test track. Sure, we can include them, but many buyers in this market could care less about the "driving" experience and want the best car (reliable, safe, economical, comfortable) for the best price.

So bear with the thread, we all have to go through topics we don't particularly care about (like 0-60 times for my grandmother and NAVI systems for me) to read what we are interested in hearing.

To a LOT of buyers, long-term reliability is a MAJOR substantial issue.

May I ask what you'd rather talk about? Start off a topic, I'm sure we'd love to hear it, seriously.

savetheland

Reliability claims are something you cannot back up on the forum. Of course you can give some anecdotal evidence, but why waste a time? By substantial I mean qualities of vehicle that can be verified and tested. And most interesting posts are from real car guys (like Karl e.g.) who understand cars, had driven really good cars on the test track and can give some meaningful advice or comparison between, say Accord and Fusion.

thegraduate

Test track data isn't meaningful to many players in this field. More important are things like safety features, luxury features, and cost.

I agree, reliability is hard to discuss objectively, and should be somewhat limited in the discussion. It shouldn't be eliminated though; things like recalls (Camry transmission, Accord Radio display, etc...) help the customer decide though.

walterquint

Let's not forget: the Fusion is made in Mexico, with FAR cheaper labor costs than in the US. The Accord is assembled here, probably far more expensively. Over time, I think the Accord's value equation will erode. It's simple economics--pay the workers less, add more value to the car. I see Fusions online for $15.5k; $2500 less than a comparable base Accord. The Accord is probably a better car, but fewer and fewer will notice over time, given that price disparity.

savetheland

Definition of "better vehicle" is subjective. For someone Subaru Imreza is a better vehicle, some will prefer Fusion/Milan's charm and sporty character despite of interior design over balanced but boring Accord. Someone will like unsupportive seats, cheesy interior plastics of Camry just because of its cushy ride. I certainly would prefer Milan.

Ford may make big profits selling Fusions but it has to spread it over of its other ineffective operations. Honda is more effective company as a whole and can charge more money for Accord just because people are ready to pay. At some point people may realize that it does not worth it, but Ford first need at least to improve plebeian design of it interior (especially center stack) make it more sophisticated. And secondly get red marks in CR for 5 years in row. One year above average reliability does not prove anything to most of people. I care less because average reliability rating is good enough for me. But interior design is one thing that keeps me away of buying Milan as a next car.

TheGraduate – I do not mean test track data, but rather feeling. Like how car changes lanes or turns around cones, how composed chassis feels or steering communicates and etc.

thegraduate

Ford may make big profits selling Fusions but it has to spread it over of its other ineffective operations. Honda is more effective company as a whole and can charge more money for Accord just because people are ready to pay. At some point people may realize that it does not worth it, but Ford first need at least to improve plebeian design of it interior (especially center stack) make it more sophisticated. And secondly get red marks in CR for 5 years in row. One year above average reliability does not prove anything to most of people. I care less because average reliability rating is good enough for me. But interior design is one thing that keeps me away of buying Milan as a next car.

TheGraduate – I do not mean test track data, but rather feeling. Like how car changes lanes or turns around cones, how composed chassis feels or steering communicates and etc.

I definitely agree with everything in your post! What are the odds?

(PS - ok, everything except only caring about "average reliability" - I have an 11 year old car with 169k miles that is still a daily driver - I hope to say the same of my new 2006 EX Sedan (currently 14k miles) 10 years down the road! Some people who sell their car before the warranty ever expires have no such desire however.)

odie6l

Having my wife's 2003 Accord EX, and having drive the Fusion as a rental car on 5 seperate occasions, I can say I am impressed with the refinement Ford put into the vehicle, but the Accord is still about 3-4 years ahead of Ford on this size vehicle. There are some strong points that the Fusion does have over the Accord, but if you put them head-2-head, the Accord is going to prevail.

I just put a video up on Carspace for the Contest Entry based on my wife's '03. It's only my 2nd attempt at video editing / making a video period, hope you all like it.

http://www.carspace.com/videos/play!id=.59cc661e

Odie
Odie's Carspace

scape2

http://www.fusionchallenge.com/

neteng101

Don't forget to the check this out too including the video link...

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=109710/pageNumber=1

A Ford funded event is somewhat suspect plus they will of course only show you the videos of the positive comments, not the ones from people that favored the other cars. Handling alone on a closed circuit is far from true everyday driving, long term reliability (the Fusion is too new to have any meaningful track record, only predictions) and other factors to buy a car.

akirby

Of course Ford paid C&D to conduct the test but the 600 testers didn't know that. And the videos are not the story. The story is that most of the testers picked the Accord and Camry over the Fusion at first until they drove all 3. Then they changed their minds and more of the 600 preferred the Fusion.

Just because you don't like the result doesn't make the test invalid or suspect.

neteng101

The story is written by Ford marketing PR. It doesn't present any detailed statistics for comparison. Proof needs to be quantified and the methodology defined. The proof (statistics) to substantiate the claims are not available. Thus it is still suspect.

It also doesn't align with tests conducted by various magazines comparison tests (including C&D's own recent comparison).

Anyone comparing the cars in the buying decision would be wise to go and test drive all the cars and then make their purchase decisions accordingly.

thegraduate

A couple of things worth noting in the test:

1.) The test is obviously putting emphasis on performance - why not get the best performing Camry (SE) as opposed to the softer XLE that they compared with? The XLE will no doubt ride the best out of all three...

2.) Did the testers drive the vehicle on any actual roads? Things like blind spots, ride harshness, ergonomics, and brake pedal modulation become more important than slalom speeds when driving around town.

3.) You said "The story is that most of the testers picked the Accord and Camry over the Fusion at first until they drove all 3. Then they changed their minds and more of the 600 preferred the Fusion."

Did I miss it? I didn't see anything saying that. I'm not disputing your claim, I just didn't see anything talking about that.

In the same token as your reply to neteng101, just because you DO like the result, doesn't make it valid and without question.

By the way, what is the EPA estimate on the AWD Fusion?