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Comments
http://www.roland.com/products/en/HP107/specs.html
We seperated it into 2 rounds due to the weight, but it looked like I could have left it standing up and still fit in the hatch (and close the hatch). As it is, we seperated it into the keyboard half and the stand half. In her Jetta sedan, they had to disassemble the stand a couple more times because it wouldn't fit in the trunk properly.
- Everyone who buys a Fit pays MSRP.
- The Fit Sport is comparable to the Base Civic in trim levels with only about 4-5 small differences(aside from the Civic using slightly better versions of the same materials all around)
So, Fit Sport vs Base(LX) Civic:
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB70HOC081B0&restor- e=false
$16,565
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60HOC021B0&restor- e=false
$17,622 out the door. Plus, there's some wiggle-room on the price since it's the end of the model year in a couple of weeks. The Fit? No extra ones on the lot TO haggle over.
To me, the Fit just, well, it's a $13,000 car and not a $16,000 car. Honda is charging us premium prices on what is honestly basic transportation.
While I agree the Civic may be more refined (of course it is positioned higher than the Fit), the quality/refinement of the Fit is better than most cars in its class, and I don't need to list all of the praise from magazines regarding its handling and fun-to-drive factor...again, relative to cars in the same class.
Also, it's not all about features. I'm sure many Fit owners don't go hauling cargo around everyday, but it's nice being able to have the flexibility when you need it. I have used my car for all sorts of things that would have been difficult or impossible in a stepback car with a trunk.
If all I wanted was cheap, "basic" transportation that got me solely from here to there, I can think of several cars that are cheaper and overall far more basic than the Fit. In fact, if all I wanted was basic transportation to get me from point A to B, and not about 5 doors, useability or size, I might have taken the Civic over the Fit.
Good points!
For good basic transportation there are a number of cars available from other manufactures that can be bought for less than the Fit or Civic, especially here at years end.
Some people simply never carry cargo larger or heavier than groceries. Others may never really need AC, power windows, or automatic transmissions.
The MSRP prices being paid for the Fit right now are simply a low supply and high demand situation. From most indications they "FIT" a nitch that most other cars simply can not match. Great mileage, room for stuff, and fun to drive.
People are willing to pay MSRP, because if they don't, it will be gone. The same was true when the Pilots first appeared.
With the Fit selling like it does, Honda just might decide to raise the price, and dealers to really load them up with costly unnessary options like $200 pinstripes and so forth. Those who got them now may have gotten a bargain indeed!
Kip
The Civic is more readily available, I'll give you that.
Now if Honda made a Civic Wagon...I would definitely get one.
Maybe because its been said a million times before that not everyone wants/likes larger cars....and the Civic can't offer the same versatility as the Fit....and this Fit forum has been going on for 4 years now....hardly new.
1. Vitz (JDM Yaris)
2. Corolla
4. Fit
Civic isn't even in the top 10.
http://tinyurl.com/n87ve
It's a trend, and Japan is a strongly trend-oriented society, where everyone likes to act like everyone else. In the late 80's, for instance, I would say 80% of passenger cars in Japan were white. And guess what? Everyone drove sedans those days.
Right now the Japanese public is crazy about minivans and the so-called "tall boy" design vehicles. The Fit has been the leader in the tall-boy category. Who knows how things will be in 10 years?
The Corolla's sales volume is misleading, since there are four distinct sub-models which are all counted as the "Corolla" (Corolla, Corolla Runx, Corolla Fielder, and Corolla Spacio). The latter three Corolla badge carriers are either station wagons or hatchbacks. They don't sell all that many sedan Corollas (for now).
One comment that I have heard people make time and time again in Japan is that the Fit is a "do-all" car in that some cars do some things really well but not necessarily other things, so if you want a car that can do everything reasonably well, you end up choosing a Fit.
Civic EX > Fit Sport> Civic LX > Fit Base > Civic DX
If the Fit is a $10k car, what do you think about $13-16k Yaris, Rios, Accents, Versas, and Suzukis?
Fit 1.3A CVT: $10,228 (the least expensive trim level)
Fit 1.5A CVT: $11.767
Fit 1.5S CVT7: $13,578 (probably closest to Fit Sport in US)
Fit 1.5W CVT7 4WD: $14,569 (the most expensive JDM Fit trim)
In addition, the Fits are routinely discounted $1,000 to $1,500 USD equivalent from the MSRPs.
When the Fit was first introduced five years ago, there was a trim that was under $10,000 US at today's exchange rate.
For your reference, I will also list some of the JDM Civic's standard MSRPs:
Civic 1.8B 5AT: $16,202 (the least expensive trim available)
Civic 1.8S 5AT: $18,466
Civic 2.0GL 5AT: $19,280 (the most expensive trim)
See the difference in the JDM MSRPs between the two cars? It absolutely makes sense that Honda can afford to use more expensive materials on the Civic when the list prices are so different.
I can't disagree with your analogy except in a couple of areas.
The Fit has a better cargo handling capability.
Families like ours are constantly "Garage Hopping" as my wife calls it. She cruises for garage sales every Saturday morning that she can. She also loves home depot and is always bringing home "Stuff" that won't fit anywhere in a Civic or Corolla sedan. We both prefer SUV type more upright seating vs the more lay down seating in sedans. Fit beats Civic in those areas.
.... it's priced way too high. This is basically a $10K car, and Honda is selling it for $15K-$17K
I agree that the Civic is a lot more car for near the same real world dollar.
The Civic will get the same or better mileage as the Fit from what I've seen on these forums. The Civic has a stronger engine, is quieter inside, do to the sedan layout, and is probably a better choice for simply commuting or hauling a couple of people.
Maybe a Civic (more upright) wagon would be the answer. However, Toyota is still offering a Corolla wagon known as the Matrix. From what I've read it is quite a bit more expensive than the sedan , doesn't perform as well, and gets much worse mileage.
Time will tell! Is the Fit all it is cracked up to be? Will it last in it's present form? Will Honda develop it into a MINI WAGON that will get much better mileage and have a much better price?
My family prefers the concept of the FIT.
It's real world value is subjective.
Kip
Honda already does have a Fit-based micro-van called the Mobilio and a station wagon called the Airwave for the Japanese market. I doubt that they will bring them here - would cannibalize the Fit, I think.
Airwave: http://www.honda.co.jp/AIRWAVE/
Personally I'd like to see $5/gal for gas. I think it would force manufacturers to design cars getting 40-50mpg or even better. Right now I'm driving 20,000 miles per year and at $2/gal I'd pay $1600, so if I was getting 45mpg I'd pay $2,220 for the same 20,000 miles, or about $50/month more. Of course we're paying now over $2/gal, so the difference would be even less, but I think that paying $50/month more would generate huge dollars to pay for upgraded roads, bridgers, public transportation, etc., change people's driving habits towards carpooling and other conservation methods, reduce overall oil usage and our dependency, and lead towards more fuel efficient vehicles. Plus gasoline prices would remain more consistent because a larger proportion of the actual price would be in federal tax, versus the actual cost of the fuel.
5 or 10 years ago if someone suggested that $2-3 gas prices become the norm for the reasons I stated above, then people would say that the economy would be ruined...well, that hasn't happened, and if they went up further to $5/gal I think that the economy would adjust for that too.
Sustained higher gas prices would possibly lead to more efficient vehicles and alternately fueled vehicles.
Until gas becomes a major item in peoples budget, they are not going to conserve. Until fuel prices remain high, folks will continue buying gas guzzlers, and there is no real incentive for mfg to produce super efficient vehicles, or electric or whatever.
With gas prices artificially high due to Federal taxes, there would indeed be lots of money for better roads, etc..
Also, if something happened to cause $$ per barrel of crude to rise, the feds COULD lower fuel taxes at the pump to keep prices stable. That's the good news.
Bad news is that once the feds start taking money from us, they forget how to ever give it back.
In this case, the money would be put to good use for a while, then some democrat would find a way to get it into the general fund. From that point, it is used for purposes other than original design. Just as with Social Security.
Americans tend to forget rather quickly. A few weeks ago SUV and V8 sales took a serious hit. Now that gas prices are dropping, we suddenly forget. Now the thirsty cars are being considered again.
I predict that the Fit, Versa, Yaris, and Scion and other of this type will begin to accumulate on the dealers lots, just like the other models. They are going to sell, but not as fast as they hit the lot, as they are doing now. Deals can be made. That will be a great time to get one. Remember, gas will go back up!
Remember when the Element was released? Dealers couldn't keep them. Now most dealers have several and will deal.
Gas prices will drop to a point, then go back up, as they have been doing for a while now. Some Arab will get mad at us, another Katrina will take out facilities, or someone on Wall Street will spit improperly and gas prices will rise again. :sick:
Kip
Basic Ecomomics, like the minimum wage. it doesn't always achieve the results you think it should. And most people don't understand why-- again basic economics. FPoepl are buying the prius because it gats good mileage, not because it has a low TCO. Myany hybrids are not economy cars. And neither the Fit or the Yaris are really that inexpensive. However, they are a step in the right direction. Still if economy is you main goal with the lowest TCO, then there are better alternative, abeit maybe not a reliable!.
Okay my knowledge of the Yaris and Fit is limited, but please tell me that the Yaris , especially the manual shift, has a tachometer!
I SHIFT,
MidCow
The Fit offers better utility and cargo space, has a more spacious feel inside, has slightly more back seat room for the same comfort in the front, has nice analog readouts, a more upright sitting and has good pep in the city. The handling when making turns is impressive for a car of this type and price point. At highway speeds the Fit is stable. The Fit is #1 in the UK and S Africa on 3 year and initial reliability tests with tens of thousands of vehicles and is highly regarded for reliability in Japan – possibly the best short and medium term reliability out there.
The Fit drawbacks for myself being over 6 ft tall is no dead pedal and if I got the aftermarket one the room for my left leg is still limited (at the height of the brake, with no ability to stretch out), although other people might not mind this. There is a lot more road noise especially from the tires and more engine noise when pushing the engine hard. Slightly more wind noise from the outside mirrors. While the handling is good, the acceleration is no comparison to the Civic as the car approaches higher and higher speeds, especially on the highway. If you want to pass quickly on the highway the Fit won’t really do it but at least the screaming engine will make it feel like it is.
Getting out of the Fit and into the Civic is like stepping into a luxury car. The engine is silky smooth and the door and center arm rests make for more comfortable driving. There is more ability to find comfort with the more and better seat and steering wheel adjustments available. At all speeds all noise is at least half that of the Fit. Acceleration particularly at highway speed leaves something to be desired in the Fit, no need to make the engine scream for the same output as one would with the Fit. The handling is even better than the Fit.
The drawback of the Civic is the 2006 complaints, recalls, and teething problems associated with a redesign. If most of these are sorted out with the 2007 Civic, in particular the ghostly right front noise suspected to be struts/engine mounts/whatever then the Civic should have close reliability to the Fit going on past Honda performance. The new two-tier dash and instruments along with the long raked windshield can be seen as annoying or attractive, depending on the driver.
These are both great cars, getting either one should be quite satisfying. Overall I saw the Fit as a great one size fits all entry level city vehicle. The Civic offers more car in the city while practically matching the fuel economy. On the highway the Civic dominates.
The key differentiator on purchase is how much utility one needs and what type of driving one does.
All manual sedans have a tachometer.
No manual or automatic liftbacks have a tachometer.
Fit > Civic > Accord > TSX > TL > RL
As you go up the chain:
(1) Cost increases.
(2) More and more luxury features.
(3) Mileage decreases.
Where doe the S2000 fit in ? LOL
MidCow
Bet it comes out as a 2008 model at the same time the Fit diesel and Fit Hybirs come out!
Watch out Fit is the car of the 21 st century.
MidCow
The Fit Hybrid is unlikely to become a reality. Honda has been back-pedaling on what they said before. It appears that Honda would rather come up with a dedicated hybrid car in the same segment as the Fit.
MidCow
GM said it also has signed two agreements with its flagship joint venture in China, Shanghai General Motors.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3475300
You were saying? Shanghai General Motors??? At least the transplants are OPENING plants HERE.... How many NEW plants have GM & Ford opened in the US in the last 10 years? How many have they CLOSED?
I think the trend is clear. GM can't make a profit in the U.S., so it's doing what the tobacco companies are doing - going overseas. While I can't fault them for trying, the result is that their best minds, best labor, profits, and so on - all are being concentrated overseas.
So of course we get second-rate stuff that doesn't complete. They've given up on the U.S. market. It bothers me to see this happen.
Take my father - he's so anal-American about everything that he supports whatever Republican is in power locally and nationally without question. He has bought American cars his whole life - something like 15 GM cars.
Yet his next car won't be GM. Even he sees that they are only giving the U.S. market their minimum effort because they don't want to completely abandon their fleet sales. But for the rest of us - we get junk compared to Europe, Australia, Taiwan, and by the looks of it, even China. His 97 Park Ave Ultra is worlds better inside than the 2003-2005 models, and even better than the new Lucerne. The cost-cutting is apallingly evident. Nobody, even a lifelong GM supporter wants to buy a rental car.
Compare that to BMW. You can buy nearly the same vehicle in Europe. Same with Honda, Mazda, and many other companies that are committed to U.S. expansion. And their main focus isn't fleets. They want to sell cars to *people* and not as an obligation to keep a foothold here while they expand to the rest of the planet. Nice interiors, good ergonomics, and almost no fleet sales.
The real reason, though, is that my mom wants a new car - something smaller and easier to drive and park. GM makes nothing smaller than a Cadillac(or Lucerne) that's decent. Well, they do, but in other countries. So she's looking at cars like an IS300 and loving every minute of it. GM? GM has nothing to compete with it. And that's a generation-old design based off of a Corolla. When a used Toyota is better than a new GM, it's time to just give up.
Quote from my mom:
"Wow - this is a nice car." when she drove the IS300. For her, this is the equivalent of jumping up and down like a schoolgirl with a big grin on her face.(she's a pretty understated person as a rule
It is a matter of economics.
MidCow
90% of their energy is now focused on foriegn markets. I wish them well, but I don't like being abandoned and having only rental cars for choices for under $30K.
Edmunds Yaris LB Photo
That is a manual liftback and no tachometer. It is also not included even with the power package.
The smallest (and actually only) production diesel created by Honda is 2.2L and is used in the Civic, Accord, CR-V, and FR-V in Europe...not in the Jazz. While, I don't doubt that Honda might have a smaller diesel in development for the Jazz and City (all the competitors have diesel options), it will be a while before it finds its way to the US. Honda's new super clean diesel looks promising for the US, but that will probably be used for a US-market diesel CR-V.
Anyway, once again this choice by Toyota makes no sense. At least on the Fit and Civic, the tach is not an issue.
Gotta agree!! High wages and bennefits are part of the problem with U.S. car MFG.. Add to that, top heavy management, and the formula for failure is there.
On the other hand my youngest son has been with Yamaha for about 10 years. Started on the assembly line, and now he has a long title and much responsibility. His hourly wage is not even close to that of an equal job with the Big 3.
To be competitive, there has to be a cost point. If too much is paid out in salaries, quality of parts and materials must take up the slack.
The Big 3 can't seem to cope any longer, yet foreign auto makers, build plants here and thrive. :confuse:
Kip
He probably needs to move to a different job that still utilizes hand-built techniques and knowhow.
My point is that they pay according to what the job is worth to them.
The big 3 pay according to what the union has managed to bully them into. (Also excessive management tiers) Their labor cost is much higher than the Asian counterparts. To have compedetive MSRPs the big 3 have to reduce cost somewhere. This leaves the areas of parts and materials. Their cars give more trouble. Customers go away! Plants close from lack of sales. That WELL PAID worker is now out of a job. He looks for another job with his skill level. Assembly line! Those that are hiring don't pay what he is used to receiving.
Union mentality is good in some areas like working conditions and such, but they need to realize that they can and are pricing themselves right out of the job market.
Kip
The difference with the Big 3's situation is that, while we the union members were willing to fight hard for what we felt we deserved, we were also willing to help out the management to the best of our abilities. Everyone knew that sabotaging the company would not do anyone any good.
Of course, it did help that none of the executives, from the CEO down, earned 500 times the wages that the rank and file was earning, as with American executives.
Also, the unions don't turn into de-facto PACs. In the U.S., unions aren't unions anymore but corporate entities of themselves. If membership in the union isn't optional for the workers and they make decisions without your input(other than whether to strike or not), it fails the basic litmus test of being a union.
Lastly, salaries in Japan for the managers and owners are usually 5-20x the average person's salary. Not too far out of line.
So GM - of course it can't survive. The unions got greedy and killed the goose. Maybe they get a yellow painted piece of tin instead of a golden egg. Their own fault.
This was the case up until early 1990s. However, the days of lifetime employment are long gone in Japan. No one, except for civil servants, has such guarantee any more.
Thanks for the cooperation!
now that you know what kind of commute i have, you can understand why i think the aveo is going to crap out on me.
anyway, having said that i was hoping to get peoples opinion/ personal experience with the fit, and the civic.
i like the fit lx, because it comes with a/c. but my worry is the size of the engine. compare that to the civic dx, which doesn't have a/c, but has a slightly larger engine....son of a b, i hate trying to make decisions.
anyway, thank you for any help, and suggestions anyone has, and thank you or taking the time to respond to my long winded first post!
tim
For me the cost of the FIT Sport MSRP and the Civic LX after discount was almost equal. I think the Civic might have even been a little cheaper so budget did not come into play.
I found the Civic had slightly better comfort in ride and driver positioning with the telescoping steering wheel and seat height adjustments. For me though, that dam emergency brake dug into my leg. It's rated at slightly better fuel economy. I am 6'2" so the leg room behind me was non existant.
The Fit has more room in the back seat and cargo carrying capacity and a great view of the road. I did have some blind spots on the Civic. And I like the look of the Fit more so than the spaceship look of the Civic.
As you can tell I bought a Fit. I have had it for one day and so far am very happy with the power it has. I don't think you will go wrong with either choice and I think I could have been happy with either.
In my mind each car has it's compromises. You just need to figure out which ones mean more to you. As this was going to be my primary vehicle I needed more cargo/people capacity.