Fit vs. Rabbit

bpeachee1

My decision had nothing to do with the exterior dimensions.
I have driven the Mazda 3, and the leg room (seat travel, proximity of center console etc) does not accomodate someone with my long legs.
I can actually move the seat up a little in the Rabbit, and still drive comfortably....not a possibility in any other small car.

moparbad

carfanaticJapanese made

Wow, it is made in Japan :lemon: , that alone is justification that it is better than any car made anyplace else in the world since Japanese :lemon: made is superior.

carfanatic007

For once I agree with you Mopar, it is Japanese made, and far superior.

crimsona

Location does matter to people. On the flip side, had any car been made in China, it would get panned across the board for shoddy workmanship, perceived or otherwise. I find it impossible to believe buyers would have no reservations buying a Chinese made car, at least anytime in the near future.

hungarian83

The quality of the Chinese built Hondas has been proven to not be as high as a comparable model made in Japan. Personally while I would prefer Japan-built, I would realistically purchase an American or British-built Honda with little hesitation...not so with a Chinese-built model.

Last year Honda's CEO Takeo Fukui even stated that the quality of a Chinese-built Honda is not at the level of a comparable car built in Japan. :surprise:

China Quality Lags, Says Fukui
"Demand for Honda's Chinese-made Fit subcompact has exceeded initial expectations, and the automaker is getting ready to ramp up production from 30,000 to 50,000 next year. At the same time, CEO Takeo Fukui acknowledged that the Chinese version of the Fit has had some problems, most notably with interior fit-and-finish. "It's true, Chinese-made Fits sometimes have quality problems," compared to identical versions being built in Japan, Fukui told TheCarConnection.com. But he stressed that the automaker is working to correct the problem at the source, and in the meantime, defective vehicles are being "fixed immediately" upon arrival in Europe, before they are shipped to showrooms. A version of the Fit will launch in the U.S. next year, but the Honda CEO said there are no plans to import the car from China."

Here is the link.

On a side note, I believe last year 10% of the Jazzes sold in Europe were Chinese-built, while the rest were made in Japan. Having reservations about this sort of thing are understandable...especially when a CEO points it out.

shrinermonkey

But haven't you heard? ...reliability is a non-issue now since all cars are much more reliable than they used to be.

bodble2

No, on the contrary, actually what I've heard is that aside from Honda and Toyota, everything else has such horrendous reliability issues as to render them totally not worthy of purchase consideration. Apparently VW, Audi, BMW, MB are all close to filing for Chapter 11 because no one is buying any of their models. It's amazing, you go down the street and you see all these late-model Euro cars, especially VW, literally falling apart right before your eyes! I feel sorry for many of my neighbors. A lot of them own VWs. It must be tough on them staying up late to fix their cars, so that I'd be able to see them happily drive them during the day, every day. Ah..but it serves them right, since they are all such big liars. I ask them about their cars, and they all say they're great. Can you imagine that, lying thru their teeth! I mean, we've all learned from the experts on this thread that VWs couldn't hold together long enough for you to get home! Thank God the Japanese still want to build cars. Or else we'd all be riding bicycles -- Japanese-built, of course.

poita33

Audi sales up 10% in the first half of this year and profit up 36%. Are you trying to be funny? :confuse:
link">http://www.globeauto.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060801.wwh-audi-0801/GAStory/spec- ialGlobeAuto/

shrinermonkey

I must live in a bizarro world because everyone that I know that owns a VW regrets their purchase decision, myself included. I also have spend a lot of time working on my car in my garage, most recently reinstalling the failed ABS module and a new coilpack. Luckily these parts fail so often that their are numerous online busineses that you can send it in to get it rebuilt... and it looks like business is booming for them. At least most of the failures on these cars are electrical and mechanical so that they at least can look good sitting on the street... probably because they are stuck there waiting for a part to get shipped to them.

I ask them about their cars, and they all say they're great.

One thing that I noticed about most VW owners is that they are willing to accept a lot of these reliablility problems as the price of admission to the cult of VW. They happily perform these costly repairs and maintenance because they feel the trade off is worth it. I also drank the Koolaid and felt the same way but it has worn me and my wallet out and it is time to move on.

Statistics can be finnicky, but in this case I have to agree with them as my personal experience backs it up 100%. You can choose to ignore these stats if you wish and claim them are meaningless but IMHO you do so at your own risk.

cmk

poita: yes. Activate your sarcasm filter and re-read it.

bodble2

I don't know if "funny" is the proper word, but as cmk said, it was my sarcastic response to the previous poster's crusade against "statistically unreliable" cars. You'd have to go back a bit to read the lead-up to it. The basic point I had made, which some here took objection to, was that cars in general have improved so much that one should not read too much, and singularly, into a statistical ranking where one model may be ranked lower than another model, because, just as in the Bell Curve Grading System, someone has to come in first, and someone last.

tomsr1

Till I found they are not available.I am glad
I got over it.I drove the Rabbit and loved the quiet solid ride but could not get past
VW's reliability record.I looked for a Mazda3
AT and none available.I just happened to
stumble into a Honda dealer where they had one
Civic EX AT and loved it and got it, then noticed it is not built in Japan but in Canada.I paid msrp but they gave me $1000 over ACV for my trade and through in a few extras.

johnnyb11

I want a Honda Rabbit. Oh well.

jbaustian

RE: "22/30 for a "city car" is decent?"

The Golf/Rabbit is not a "city car". It is quite capable of traveling at 100+ mph for as far as you want to drive. Or to cruise cross-country at 70-75 mph in comfort and safety.

City cars are at their best when driven at 60 mph or below. My 2003 Golf TDI has a sweet spot at 85 mph, and is very stable at 100 mph. I have never tried to go above 105, but in the right place and the right time, i think I could hit 115-118.

backy

VW is marketing the Rabbit as a "city car," primarily to young, "hip" types. Take a look at the Rabbit brochure and that is clear.

hungarian83

Amazing...I would think someone knowing so much about the car would have at least some clue of how the company has labeled it. :sick:

moparbad

VW is marketing the Rabbit as a "city car," primarily to young, "hip" types. Take a look at the Rabbit brochure and that is clear.

It is clear that Honda is marketing the Fit to 3 to 13 year olds, one look at all the comic style cartoons in the advertisements for the Fit and that is clear.
Society of Fit

moparbad

Amazing...I would think someone knowing so much about the car would have at least some clue of how the company has labeled it.

Honda, VW or etc. can attempt to market cars to a certain demographic, however, it often does not succeed. Labeling customers is not as easy as "labeling" cars.
Honda Element is a good example of a vehicle designed to appeal to young and hip and instead older and retired purchased it.

backy

And their strategy appears to be working very well! Either there are a lot of wealthy kids out there, or they have great influence with their parents over car buying decisions!

Or... just maybe adults look at cartoons sometimes, e.g. ever see Adult Swim?

hungarian83

I completely don't understand their marketing strategy for the Fit...as if the only people who would even consider a car like this are trading up from a bicycle. It's insulting.

They should have just stuck with the same demographics they used for the Jazz in Europe. Seems like those same kinds of people are the ones buying the car in the US.

As for VW, it's too bad they don't bring over something to better compete with the Fit and Yaris...like the Polo.

moparbad

And their strategy appears to be working very well! Either there are a lot of wealthy kids out there, or they have great influence with their parents over car buying decisions!

(Honda) their strategy working very well! :sick: :confuse: How so? Since there is another topic that surveys demographics of Fit buyers I checked the ages of the first 10 resondents. They are 43, 42, 51, 75, 45, 50, 49, 61, 48, 29 years of age.
Zero under 25 and one under 30. Avg. age 49.3 years.
Wow! Honda should just market the Fit as a mini Minivan! At least then there advertising would be reaching the buying demographic.

Adult Swim?? Never seen it.

bodble2

If you look at price, size, utility, the Rabbit does compete with the Fit. It's just that it's list of standard and optional equipment is a couple of notches above the Fit. I don't think it's fair to say it does not compete. I think it's amazing that VW can bring that level of refinement, performance and equipment at roughly the same price-point as the Fit's.

hungarian83

I never responded to that particular post, but I am closer to the marketing age, being under 25.

However, other than the age I don't fit what they are targeting (if anyone knows for a fact what that is). Accessories for example...I wish they would offer some useful accessories and not all of these add-ons that make the car look like a toy. I look at Honda's Japanese or European Fit/Jazz accessories, and wish that they would offer at least a few of those things.

The Fit is the kind of car that spans many demographic groups because there are people who want a small, versatile, well-built hatchback and don't want to deal with the size and inefficiency of a minivan or SUV. Age seems irrelevant.

backy

Whatever their strategy is (hint: it's not targeting pre-teens), it's working well because Fits are jumping off of dealer lots as fast as they can be delivered, usually at full MSRP or above.

cjshow

In regards to how the Fit is marketed, I am right in their target demographic: I'm a 27 year old female and am a hatchback devotee. However, their commercials made me feel confused and demeaned. I must have missed the whole "atari/nintendo" thing as a child and don't want a car that came out of an old-school video game. Their web banner ad with the rotating rays and the Samurai Jack look alike were cute, though. But it doesn't help the car at all. People are either into versitle hatchbacks and won't discriminate based on bad advertising, or they are advertising suckers who buy the exact same car as was in the ad and nothing else will do (think Red Dodge Rams and Silver Mercedes).

Along the same vein, the ads for the Nissan Versa were also confusing. The first one I saw was some guy (adult man in his 30s) crying his eyes out as a woman tried to shove him into a sub-compact that was not the Versa. The Versa wasn't even in the ad!

The ads for the Rabbit were at least cute and original. I'm still not going to buy a VW, but at least they were trying to have fun with the name.

cmk

I am just hoping they will abandon the push towards young demographic for next model change, so I can get the car I want with the features I want without the plastic add-on crap.

bodble2

I think the "plastic add-on crap" is almost necessary because Honda is dealing with what is essentially 5-yr-old styling. Let's face it, the base Fit, with its tall-boy body, and undersized tire/wheel is not a pretty sight. It looks very ungainly and awkward. :sick:

hungarian83

While it may look ungainly to you, from an actual driver's point of view I can tell you assuredly that it does not perform in that respect in anyway. I also don't find it unattractive (I admit the base wheel covers leave something to be desire), but to me it hardly looks "ungainly and akward". To me a car like the Suzuki Wagon R+ has that image, but then again looks are entirely subjective.

bodble2

I'm not familiar with the Suzuki Wagon R. But to me the Fit, especially the Base, has too much resemblance to the Suzuki Aerio 5-door.

ben911

I agree that the Fit looks like a minivan without the novelty of the sliding doors. I'd rather have a Mazda5 if I were going for a small minivan-looking car. That is one sweet driving mico-van.

Ben

nippononly

in this week's Autoweek they do one of those short reviews of the Rabbit - one guy says "why on Earth wouldn't I buy a Civic for this price instead? I would". The other guy basically says the Rabbit is OK and there are some aspects of it he likes, then goes on to say something like "between this and a $15,000 loaded-up B-segment car with poor power and handling and a lack of amenities, this is clearly the better choice" (paraphrasing here).

Both make comparisons to Hondas, which seems so apropos to this thread. If there were a Civic hatch, I think it would be a slam dunk: I would go with the Civic.

But since there isn't, for me it boils down to which end of the Rabbit Spectrum you are at. If you want a $15,600 two-door stripper, it is probably the better deal than the Fit Sport at the same price (as long as you only need two doors) - nicer interior, more well-rounded, etc etc. If you are looking at a loaded 4-door, I just can't see it being $4000-5000 better than the Fit Sport. Unless you're THAT attached to the idea of a factory moonroof. $4-5K is a lot of money.

Right now, there is one big difference between the two: VW dealers will kiss your toes if you will buy a Rabbit from them (even the cheapie model), while Honda has a SEVEN-DAY supply of Fits nationwide, making them so scarce you can't even test drive one, and most dealers are marking them up.

thegraduate

(referring to acceleration times)That is with one person and taking it to Red line in each gear.

Any proper accleration test will take a car to redline in each gear; if it doesn't it isn't measuring best possible acceleration.

I just realized how old the post I'm replying to actually is, but it is still a valid point for readers to understand.

grumpyoldman1

Local honda dealer had a fully loaded fit in stock.
Took a test drive and was about ready to write a check.
Just wanted to drive a rabbit first just to be sure. Needless to say I know own a rabbit.

I dearly miss my old civic hatchbacks and would have bought a civic hatch if they let the U.S have one. But the fit is not a civic hatch.
REALLY happy with the rabbit.

thegraduate

Glad you like your Rabbit, although it is a very different vehicle from the Civic Hatch (which was very light and economical). As a matter of fact, the Rabbit weighs more than my Accord, and gets worse mileage to boot. It has lots of great features, but it isn't an economy car. That's probably both a good thing, and a bad thing.

chrono

Economical is such a relative word. I would definately agree that the Rabbit is heavy but it's more competative in mpg then you present it to be. If you look at the new 2008 EPA ratings the Rabbit is getting 19/28 while the Accord gets 21/31. Not too big a difference. Factor in the Rabbit has one more cylinder and more torque to boot. Check out ratings for other compact cars with similiar displacement such as the Cobalt, Mazda3 S or Impreza the mpg ratings are pretty close. Seriously, the Rabbit is just as economical to equivalent cars of size and displacement. Back to the discussion, the Fit is definately more economical then the Rabbit. The two cars are related only in shape and starting price point.

thegraduate

Where'd you find the 2008 ratings? I'd love to see.

Also, you mention the Accord only gets 3MPG better. Remember, you are comparing a compact hatch to a midsize sedan, and the midsize sedan is STILL getting better mileage!

The EPA link would be MUCH appreciated on these boards, Puh-leeeeeease?

moparbad

The new diesel engine is expected to provide 60 mpg highway and significantly higher HP than the previous TDI with the new one at 140HP.

dudleyr

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp

thegraduate

Thanks.

That info is surprising. I thought the highway numbers would go up, and the city numbers go down, considering i get upper 30s pretty regularly on pure highway trips, and have topped 40 MPG twice. This, in my 34 MPG Hwy rated Accord I-4.

shirotori

and when may we be expecting this vehicle to be available for purchase?

eldaino

and then we can go on to say that car and driver put the rabbit on the top of their list, bouncing right past several very strong contenders including the civic and 3.

A civic hatch a slam dunk? Yeah honda gave us one and everyone (not me) hated it. It seems that when we get what we ask for we flame it anyway. and the only problem with the last civic hatch was that it had si on the front an back when it should have just said 'ex'. (or ex se or something to point out that the engine was different and not just another body style.)

The current civic hatches in europe in my opinoin look amazing. But the styling is way too, how should i put this...un-american honda for it to be welcomed with open arms. Again i think it looks great, but i can imagine all the 'new civic hatch is horrendous' threads on this forum.

I personally am on the 'other' side of the spectrum, i would have loved a four door rabbit but ended up with a two door. I think its a little silly to say that the rabbit is a dealbreaker in four door guise when compared to the fit, of course it costs more, its not really a b list car; its a compact that starts out life in the b list price wise. Thats all. Ever see how no one gripes about how the mazda 3 hatch is so much more expensive over the fit? Its because they play in different playgrounds. Any non b list 4 door hatch will be cheaper than a mazda 3 or a rabbit 4 door. Its just nice knowing that the rabbit is attainable for that little.

eldaino

whole heartedly agreed.

backy

More on topic, maybe you saw the MT COTY issue, in which the Fit was a finalist but the Rabbit didn't make the cut for a finalist.

eldaino

Hey grad! Havent talked to ya in a while.

I agree with chrono; ecomomy is relative. I know your accord and accords in general get good mileage, but do you think that despite great milage that anyone tight on the pocket book look at a 21k+ accord as ecomomical even though it can be argued that it is?

The scion tc and scions brand in general is marketed as a great quality car that is easy on the pocket book. And yet the tc's all aluminum (lighter, more efficent) 2.4 liter four cylinder gets fractionaly better mileage than the 2.5 five cylinder iron block in the rabbit which weight a lot more. The rabbit gets very competitve mileage, i'm starting to average 30mpg on a regular basis. Not bad for a car with all these factors against it.

eldaino

I read it, i thought it was at least a contender though. But thats ok i mean, it doesn't matter to me what motor trend thinks. If they agree that a really nice sport compact is economical enought to be considered against the likes of a fit, i guess that says worlds for the versatility of the rabbit. And kudos for the fit too, some people forget i'm a honda buff too.

eldaino

Still getting better milage but, like you said, it weighs even more than your accord, has larger displacement and a whole extra cylinder. 3mpg suddenly doesn't seem like a big deal.

thegraduate

I know your accord and accords in general get good mileage, but do you think that despite great milage that anyone tight on the pocket book look at a 21k+ accord as ecomomical even though it can be argued that it is?

Just like the Rabbit, there are cheapo versions of the Accord too! The Value Package Accords are going for $16k. Mine has many more features than that though, and cost more as a result.

And yet the tc's all aluminum (lighter, more efficent) 2.4 liter four cylinder gets fractionaly better mileage than the 2.5 five cylinder iron block in the rabbit which weight a lot more.

That same engine in the Camry gets 24/33 MPG I believe, but the Scion has insanely short gearing in my opinion. At 80 MPH in the Automatic (at least the old 4-speed in 2005), RPMs were near 4,000 RPM. Talk about killing mileage! I know it sounds like I'm making excuses, but I guess that's just as valid as talking about the Rabbit weighing a lot and hurting mileage. Whats a guy to do?

It has been a while since we chatted eldi, nice to see ya!

thegraduate

Still getting better milage but, like you said, it weighs even more than your accord, has larger displacement and a whole extra cylinder. 3mpg suddenly doesn't seem like a big deal.

To me, having a compact with 150 horsepower get lower mileage than a midsize with 166 would just drive me crazy. I'm WAY practical though.

eldaino

I'm WAY practical though.

You are arent you? thats cool man, all valid points, i wish i was making more horsies but i really don't mind the torque. I just think my bunny makes a good showing for itself given its disadvantages over other cars.

eldaino

Hey grad you are right about the camry's number. Man what a difference in gearing! I didnt realize the tc was so high strung in such a bad way! Don't worry about the making of excuses, everyone does it. I know i sure as heck do! :P Nice to here from ya man.