If I get a '07 328 with sport package will I scrape the front air dam to the point it is destroyed over every dip? Is it too low for normal driving? Has anyone had a problem with this. If I lease it I am worried I will get charged $$$ to fix it at end of term.
One of the very nice things about RWD cars is that they don't need to make for lots of room in front of the front wheels for the engine and drive train. Said another way, the front wheels can be positioned closer to the front of the car (something that BMW specializes in doing) than with a car that has a FWD basis.
The only front bumper work that I needed to have done to either of my BMWs was from a time when Mrs. Shipo took the 530i SP to work one day and "Parked by feel" against the curb stone. Her habit with her minivan is to roll up to the curb until the front wheels bump the curb. Unfortunately for the 5er, its lower front bumper sat lower to the ground than the top of said curb stone, so when she parked, the bumper was resting directly on the top of said curb. When she backed out of the parking spot, she pulled the lower bumper off.
I hate to see all that wasted wheel spin around the twisties.
Huh? That's never been a problem in any competently driven RWD BMW I've experienced. When all is said and done, the best traction control system resides between the driver's ears. As I've said before: Take any xi to a CCA track event and see how many times you get a point-by.. :P .
All in good time...BMW looks like they are serious about x-drive. The driver in the video wasted some good rubber, imo. Sooner or later the techno will rule.
Let's see some pro test results to back up your claim! I saw a comparo of an G35 vs. AWD and there were some points scored over RWD. Perhaps is jut the BMW's for now.
Let's see some pro test results to back up your claim!
Let me know if you find any AWD ///M cars... Have you noticed thar the SP xi models lack the sports suspension of the RWD cars? Ever driven either back to back on a closed course or auto-x? AWD offers some advantages on low friction surfaces, and it also provides a formidable safety net for those who lack competent driving skills. I'll stick with RWD in my BMW cars, thanks. And yes, I would take a 993 C4 ot a Jensen FF...
No AWD MCars, but Porsche makes a lovely C4S that will blow the door of the current M on a closed course. BTW, you can customize any AWD set up to out perform similar RWD. Nothing is always equal but as the technology improves, I believe the results will come.
Yes, drove 330i non-sp and 330xi back to back but not on a closed course. Had the 330i for 1,000 miles. Suspension on AWD performed better, imo.
You have every right to your opinion and are probably way more competent than me. Let me know when you have performed the balanced test and I will be eager to learn.
You really do have to experience this in the wet conditions to believe.
Here is a little blurb regarding someone who drove the C4s vs. the C2. I can't wait to test drive the 335xi to see the difference!
Title: All-Wheel Drive Makes the Carrera 4S an Even Better 911 First Impressions: Better-looking and easier to drive than the standard model, the Carrera 4S is as good as a 911 gets — for now. Quote: "It's not until you lay into it around a tight bend that you begin to appreciate the Carrera 4's extra grip up front. Unlike the standard Carrera, which requires just the right amount of throttle, steering and confidence to get around a corner quickly, the 4S just yanks you around it. You never feel the power shifting between the front and rear wheels, it just goes right where you point it."
In what way? Transient response? Roll stiffness? Steady-state cornering? Yaw rate?
Let me know when you have performed the balanced test and I will be eager to learn.
OK, you've got me there; what's a "balanced test"?
You really do have to experience this in the wet conditions to believe.
As I've said before, AWD is a godsend if you don't feel confident driving in wet weather. In my experience, a good driver in a RWD car won't have any trouble keeping up with an equivalent AWD car in the rain. Will the AWD car be easier for an inexperienced driver to handle? Sure, but it can also be less fun to drive overall. I'll also admit that AWD cars can often perform better in winter conditions. Still, I've found that a RWD BMW fitted with good winter tires will do just fine. You see, I simply prefer a car that rewards competent driving. Others want a car that can compensate for a lack of driving ability. To each his own. I can only hope that Munich doesn't dumb down the driving experience any further. Which is why my next sled-if it's a BMW-will almost certainly be an E46 M3 or E39 M5. Or perhaps even an M1.
In what way? Transient response? Roll stiffness? Steady-state cornering? Yaw rate?
All of the above. The difference in the flatness on the same roads was quite noticeable at all speeds. I am sure SP i would be far better. Both cars had the same tires and slush box. I wonder if the AWD suspension setup has some stiffer suspension dampening.
The balanced test I was referring to would be a 330 i no SP vs. 330xi on a road course, slalom and skid pad, 0-60, 60-0 in the same day, same conditions.
I can say that I am really having fun with the xi. Time will tell when a truly experienced driver can prove that it takes skill to take a car with an AWD handicap and have great fun making points to his/her counterpart all day long at the track. You really can have fun, it's just different.
Some cars "benefit" from the performance of AWD, and others don't.
BMW offers AWD versions of their sedans to customers in the smowbelt looking for all-weather traction - but at the expense of handling and acceleration. No all-wheel drive BMW is faster around a racetrack than it's RWD equivalent.
Porsche, on the other hand, offers AWD on the 911 as a performance "upgrade." AWD on the 911 helps minimize the rear wheel traction issues that are a normal part of the 911 driving experience (and arguably what makes the 911 so much fun to drive when in capable hands). AWD in the 911 makes the handling more neutral and easier to manage by less experienced drivers. So...
For the average driver, a C4S is certainly quicker around a racetrack than a C2S. For a skilled 911 pilot, the C2S and C4S are probably about an even match in lap times, but the C2S absolutely is more challenging, entertaining, and rewarding to drive.
And after all, isn't that why we're here? If you don't care about the drive, why not just get a Lexus and be done with it?
BMW offers AWD versions of their sedans to customers in the snow belt looking for all-weather traction - but at the expense of handling and acceleration. No all-wheel drive BMW is faster around a racetrack than it's RWD equivalent.
I will wait for the performance upgrade. I assume you have first-hand experience with BMW-AWD. Let's keep this topic open as the technology progresses.
In the meantime, check it out. It is really fun and will not bite you. Really!
So, if I add the HP and modify the suspension of this '06 330xi, it will be superior the the RWD equivalent.
I might just as well wait for the 335 xi which will probably beat an old M3 around the track.
"So, if I add the HP and modify the suspension of this '06 330xi, it will be superior to the RWD equivalent."
Not likely. The "xi" will still weigh more, ride higher, handle worse and stop longer that the equivalent "i" model (and accelerate slower in all but the most slippery conditions).
"I might just as well wait for the 335 xi which will probably beat an old M3 around the track."
Not a chance. The E46 M3 has a superior power to weight ratio, superior suspension, superior rubber and superior brakes. The old M3 will easily hand any factory original/untweaked manifestation of the (alleged) future 335xi its lunch around a track.
"So, if I add the HP and modify the suspension of this '06 330xi, it will be superior the the RWD equivalent."
OK, let's see how this might go. Dinan sells a high flow intake, exhaust, and throttle body kit for the 330, so you can get another 15hp for $2,500. Dinan's "Stage 1" suspension kit costs $1,500. Figure another couple grand for installation.
What you end up with is a 330xi that costs $8,000 more than a 330i, and all it does better is climb your driveway in the snow.
Technical editor Don Sherman’s ears perked up at all this number crunching. With all that power, he wondered, is the 335i faster than the outgoing 333-hp E46 M3? We waved goodbye to the shiny new coupe’s rear tires, and sent him to find out.
Don coaxed the 335i to 60 mph in 5.1 seconds--only 0.3 seconds slower than the M3. The 335i covered the quarter-mile in 13.6 seconds @ 104 mph--again, only 0.2 seconds and 1 mph behind the M3.
2007 BMW 335i Rear View So in an all-out drag race, the 335i comes close, but can’t quite match the M3’s blistering acceleration. Those numbers, though, only tell half the story. Have a look at the top-gear acceleration figures. In sixth gear, the M3 needs 14.7 seconds to get from 30 to 70 mph – but the 335i does it in only 12.5.
That, my friends, is the beauty of this engine. At full bore, it’s as fast as an M3. But at moderate engine speeds, it’s even faster. What a great way to keep us all interested until the next M3 comes comes along.
So I assume with SP, 335 should edge e46 M in a road competition. You can assume all you want but show me the results in a true head to head show down.
"I'm a 3 Series nut. I previously owned a 2001 330ci, then a 2002 M3 Convertible. The 330ci was a bit too slow. The M3 was fast, but too harsh to be comfortable. The new 335i coupe is a perfect combination¿ it is as fast as (dare I say FASTER than?) the M3, but far more comfortable. It looks and feels incredibly classy, handles extremely well, is the perfect size, is fairly economical (I'm averaging 19 mpg in combined driving), and really isn't all that expensive considering minivans now cost nearly $40K. The 335i is by FAR the best combination of sport, comfort and beauty. I am shocked at how much I love my new 335i. I also suspect that these cars will hold their values very well. Suggested improvements: 1) Get rid of the heavy run-flat tires! 2) Make the back seat a 3-seater instead of 2-seater! 3) PLEASE create a navigation system that does not require the dreaded iDrive!" — Mountainman, November 2, 2006
"While at SEMA I talked to a few companies that would like to remain nameless about upcoming chips for the 335. No one would give exact numbers, but all said that the M3 will have trouble running away from just a chipped 335. Now imagine once people start doing other bolt-ons. How relevant is the M3 going to be in the performance world?"
All you've shown me is a suggestion that the 335i is faster in the 30 to 70 acceleration test in top gear a completely lame test if there ever was one. No idiot in his right mind is going to race either a 335i or an M3 over a road course in top gear, unless it happens to be on a long straight at LeMans. The better metric for a head to head comparison was the quarter mile test where both cars are presumably in the proper gear for best acceleration at any given moment. Even that is thin as an overall metric for comparing the two cars. Why? The M3 should easily be able to run away and hide from a new 335i SP on a road course, even if it had a lower powered mill, due to the fact that it can turn, slalom and brake way better than the 335i.
...becoming the convention of the M3 wannabes. Fedlawman, I'm sure you'd trade your M3 for a new 335i, right? OW, you excel at quoting from magazine articles, but have you ever driven ANY car at the limit in an auto-x or on a track? There's a lot more to a good car than .01 second here or there. If all you care about are raw numbers from the buff books, why not just pick up a Neon SRT-4 and be done with it? In the meantime, those of us who drive AND read can draw our own conclusions from actual experience- as opposed to those who form their opinions based on an hour or so in front of the magazine rack at Borders.
As Shipo has mentioned, there are several reasons why the E46 M3 would walk away from an E90 335i on a racetrack.
Stickier tires, aggressively sport-tuned suspension, and superior brakes all equal later braking into a corner, more speed through the corner, and sooner power application out of the corner.
The engine is another factor. Top gear roll-on tests show the benefit of the E90's flatter power delivery - more power down low and a fatter midrange than the relatively peaky M3. The 335i is a more comfortable "around town" car. Removed from public streets, however, it's a completely different story. On the racetrack, where revs rarely dip below 4000 RPM, the M3 is in it's element. The M3's power-to-weight ratio above 4000 RPM puts the 335i to shame.
Later braking, faster cornering, sooner and harder acceleration, and quicker transitions (less weight transfer) mean the M3 is a vastly superior sporting machine than the 335i on pretty much any road.
Div2 - no, not in a million years. But if someone gave me a 335i, I wouldn't turn it away --- I'd trade it for an Exige!
The engine is another factor. Top gear roll-on tests show the benefit of the E90's flatter power delivery - more power down low and a fatter midrange than the relatively peaky M3.
Sadly, it seems that many of the so-called enthusiasts who prefer a manual transmission still don't want to shift it. My 1995 Club Sport is a barrel of laughs provided that you keep the tach above 4000 rpm. As a result, you have to shift it a lot more often than many people would prefer. As for me, I enjoy the frequent shifting; it gives me an opportunity to brush up on my heel and toe and double de-clutching skills.
But if someone gave me a 335i, I wouldn't turn it away --- I'd trade it for an Exige!
Ooooh... Good call!!! You know, whenever I look at a new car, I'm always thinking, "Hmmmm, I wonder what used car I can get for the same amount of money?"
I have never driven a car at at the limit in an auto-x or on a track. The assumptions I make are from info provided by people who have such as yourself, fedlawman, shipo and others on this board.
I did some drags in the '70's, so I am familar with the limits regarding straight line acceleration.
I draw my conclusions from those like yourself who know and give opinions based on the numbers as well as those reporting from the mags. Everything has a slant.
When it comes down to it, the object of sharing information is a good thing and I highly respect yours and others views.
You make excellent points and I stand corrected. I am still learning and appreciate your insights.
Stock cars rarely are that great on the track and track cars make great street cars if the point is local fun but daily driver duty will NOT be fun in a commute scenario. I assume thats why M, AMG, SRT, V are coming to fruition as tuner options to the plain Jane models.
So, the 335 remains a stock improvement to the 3. Got it.
You are basically right, however I would add that everyone's got a different opinion of what is acceptable for a "commuter car."
I would have no trouble driving my M3 everyday in rush hour traffic if I needed to. Actually, my company car is a Ford Taurus now, so I do sometimes drive the M to work, just because I suffer from withdrawal if I don't get to drive the M after a few days. My M is quiet and comfortable enough for me, though I suspect that you would find it intolerable.
There are also a fair number of club members who bring their stock E46's, E90's, and E39's to track events. Sure a track car would be a superior performer, but even stock, a BMW is obviously designed to be sporty. They are all fun to drive and competent around a racetrack.
I think sport sedans are a reflection of us. As we (our demographic) have grown older, softer, lazier, and obtained more disposable income, the market has evolved to accomodate us. I think it's a shame that the lightest car BMW sells in the US weighs over 3000 lbs, and it is so complex that a shadetree mechanic wouldn't dare open it up.
That's why I drive a 20 year-old BMW. RWD as it should be, Limited Slip Differential, and no airbags, traction control, and creepy magic arms to hand me my seatbelt.
I would not find the M intolerable for a commuter as I do have a bent for firm suspension/performance. My wife finds the ride in the xi quite intolerable so, as you say, it's a matter of preference. If I had an M, I would always drive it weather permitting but since this is my first 3'er, I decided on the all-weather, mini-van-weighted xi.
It's still the best and balanced handling in any car I've driven, including the '06 300C SRT8 I test drove and the standard i they lent me while the x'er was in service for 1,000 miles.
I would love to become road-course literate but I would rather have a dedicated corner carver such as the M as a tool to get the most out of the experience. Besides, the rft's are a downgrade for true performance driving off-street.
I got my 07 328i a few weeks back and a had a few questions for anyone with a similar car.
- Does it come with the alarm system in it or is that an extra accessory from the dealer? - The manual has a section of TPM (Tire Pressure Monitor) and FTM (Flat Tire Monitor) via iDrive. All i see is FTM and not TPM. Anyone else have this? - The manual also has a First-Aid Kit and Warning triangle in the trunk. I dont have it in mine.
I just want to make sure I dont have anything missing that I was supposed to have got.
Your club sport doesn't look anything like this local club member's creation, does it?
Not hardly, though I have heard about that car. What a beast. I do think I would have used an S62 had I wanted a V8. Racing Dynamics even built a V12 ti in the late nineties. I seriously considered fitting a S14 but a fellow ti Register member tried it and simply couldnt make it work(crossmember problems IIRC). Sooner or later I'm going to buy a used M42 engine and it have rebuilt into something like one of these bad boys. A 0-60 time of 6.5s and a 1/4 mile ET of 14.5 @ 98 mph is plenty strong for a NA 2.1 liter engine. And, like your M3, my ti is lacks the Bavarian nannies that interfere with the driving experience.
I researched MM when I had my M20 325is. I'm impressed with their website and I've heard good things on the enthusiast boards from people who have dealt with them.
I think MM is a great way to go to keep the balance of your club sport intact but add a little uumph at track-out.
I'm impressed with their website and I've heard good things on the enthusiast boards from people who have dealt with them.
When CCA's Gateway Tech was an annual St. Louis event(back in the eighties and nineties), Jim Rowe was there every year- he also attends most every O'fest. He's a brilliant guy and very entertaining to talk with.
I think MM is a great way to go to keep the balance of your club sport intact but add a little uumph at track-out.
That's my approach. I'm the original owner and I special ordered it so it's one of the few Club Sports without a sunroof. After 11 years and 107K miles it has become a member of the family.
Speaking of Gateway Tech...I live 15 minutes from Tacoma, WA - the location of TechFest 2007. I'm planning on attending the Saturday events.
I just might fly out there myself. The only problem is that I already have two BMW themed getaways set up for January and April, and I also plan to make O'fest in Texas. I fear that I might be pushing my luck with Mrs. div by adding TechFest to the agenda...
Here's hoping that BMW builds (and sells in the US) another "keeper" someday soon...
At TechFest 2006 Satch Carlson and I begged Larry Koch of BMW NA to consider bringing in a limited number of 130i M Sports:
Price the car at $35K and I think you could sell at least 15,000 with no trouble at all. Problem is, the suits at NA won't consider offering another hatch(M Coupes don't count for some reason). As an aside, you've probably heard that the ti was a failure in the US market. The truth is that the ti met almost every one of its sales targets. The problem was that NA wanted the ti to be a "conquest" car which would draw new BMW owners into the fold. As it turned out, the car didn't attract all that many first-time buyers. Instead, long-time BMW enthusiasts bought them for use as track rats(me), commuters(my wife), or a second car. Of course, the aggressive pricing meant that BMW was not making much money off the ti, so they decided to pull the plug.
That of course is from Demolition Man a throwaway movie to be sure, but my warped mind was reminded of this phrase as I read the last 20 posts regarding the M3 vs 335 and AWD vs RWD BMW's.
I am a believer in AWD. I see the RWD and even the FWD "arguments" -- and often I agree with the RWD argument; often I am in violent agreement, in fact.
Yet all this talk about "whatever" on the race track is lost on me. I am not going to take my M3 or 335i (I don't have either one, that is a liberty I am taking for purposes of this post) out on the race track to attempt to prove which engine is more potent or which drive configuration is superior.
It just doesn't matter, for as a practical matter, soon ALL BMW's will be AWD. More accurately: very soon all models will offer at least one AWD version. Here in the US, we will have four (five if you count the X3) 3's offered in X drive; two or three 5's in X-drive; and next up, the 7 series will offer all wheels driven. Other BMW's over time will come with AWD offered. Some -- either low volume or the highest power versions -- will soldier on with RWD.
And, their steadfast refusal to offer AWD (at present) on M cars is for what reason? Performance? Bragging rights? A token for the faithful? Economics? Marketing?
If AWD were without merit (or merits, plural) it probably would NOT be offered and plans to expand its adoption no longer a secret (if they ever were.) I have to assume the reason to ultimately make "all BMW's" (as noted above) available with AWD has to do with "demand."
The 10th largest BMW dealer is here in our big town (or, if you like, small city.) The only reason, so they claim there, they do not sell MORE than 40% of the 100 cars per month they sell with X-drive is "inventory availability."
It is nearly impossible to even test drive an X-drive sedan -- they are ALL already claimed before they even have a chance to be prepped off the transport truck.
Cincinnati rarely has much snow; and, the snow we have sticks for at most a day or two. I suspect there could be a weather argument, but the dealer believes "X-drive just makes a BMW a better BMW."
Sales and marketing puffery? Perhaps. But, perception is reality. Most of the buying public (across many brands, many classes of cars and all price ranges) now looks at AWD as a means to improve the desirability, driveability, handling, performance and safety (in alphabetical order, I might add.)
The buying public, the customers that keep these companies advancing their "art and science" (with hats off to Cadillac for the phrase, as I recall) of building cars, has spoken. The customers want more and more and better AWD cars. From exotics to lowly cars of any "Caliber" (pun, er, "intended.")
Increasingly all BMW's -- but not just Bimmers -- highest performing offerings will migrate from 2 driven wheels to all wheels driven. The fact that an M5 or M3 "may never" offer AWD could, again, be part of a marketing message, part of an accountant's spreadsheet ("low volume, even with all volume demanded in AWD, the tooling costs are too high, Hans!") kind of thing.
I for one would welcome (will welcome) the 335xi coupe and sedan, followed of course by the 535xi and so on.
The debate will not, perhaps can not be settled here -- there are too many folks who believe RWD or AWD provides advantages (both on the road and track.) It matters little who can be proven right (if anyone), BMW and all its rivals already do or soon will be AWD.
And, all restaurants will be Taco Bell.
No, really. :surprise:
Drive it like you live (and where I live -- on the streets, roads and highways, not on the race track [and there is ample evidence that even there AWD rules] AWD is best.
To each his/her own.
Someday, you will walk into your BMW dealer and I predict the rep will "assume" you want the autotrans version of an X-drive car either in the 3,5 or 7 series. Today there is a 40% chance that indeed someday is already here.
Very well said. RWD IS fun but I would offer the expert drivers on this board to see if they could ever have fun with AWD. Sorry, probably not.
I think mine is a blast (for a minivan-weighted sedan). This thing just won't let go! I guess I should take it to the track and gain experience...it would be like training wheels!
Like Anti-Lock brakes, the technology WILL march on.
My view is if I want a track car, I buy ('er lease) an ultimate track car. I am sure even a stock M will get boring on the track as years roll by and power increases, hence the modified set or just lease. And yes, the owner's club members will begin to take their awd to the track at the horror of the purists! (I remember when fuel-injected cars were scorned by some at the 1/4 mile track out on L.I. in the late '60's and early '70's. But supercharged was cool!) As Porsche already offers awd as a "performance upgrade", don't you think BMW will take that cue soon?
To each his own, right?
As I have pointed out many posts ago, the technology will get better so the advantage will always lean that way. Besides, if AWD weight disadvantage is solved (balanced weight+ add HP, mix well) and SP suspension is installed, why not have the option to "turn off" the system to revert to the desired of RWD? Then, you could see how good you really are against the electronic brain. Might be able to learn some new tricks to boot! Then, with the family in the car, just leave the AWD on and cruise with confidence(for all the untested drivers) or even let the wife or teenager drive!. After all, no matter what, there will always be the Track. That's where we have fun learning, right?
Can not wait for the new 335xi. I already know it won't have the sport suspension but sooner or later, this will change. I know I would tick that option.
I would NOT hold my breath for BMW to offer a sport suspension any time soon on the X-drive sedans. Ditto for Mercedes. Of the Germans, only Audi and VW, at this point, are offering us at least four 1/2 suspension options:
You can, on a BMW X3, get a sport suspension, but it is stiffer NOT lower. Audi and VW on their AWD cars offer stiffer AND lower ride heights in their sport packages.
The BMW sport suspensions we can have are, at present, stiffer and lower only in the RWD sedans (with a possible note pertaining to the new X5.)
When you configure, for instance, a BMW 530xi with the sport package the only performance enhancement you get is a better pair of shoes and socks (and maybe they are an inch bigger too.)
One could, of course, argue that the 530xi with upsized higher performance wheels and tires is pretty sporty, but unfortunately the spring rates and ride heights are pretty much normal and hence there is slightly more body roll than in a RWD version with the sport package.
Audi's go from stiff, to stiffer and in the RS (and even some of the S models) stiffest as you check off sport package options.
Comments
The only front bumper work that I needed to have done to either of my BMWs was from a time when Mrs. Shipo took the 530i SP to work one day and "Parked by feel" against the curb stone. Her habit with her minivan is to roll up to the curb until the front wheels bump the curb. Unfortunately for the 5er, its lower front bumper sat lower to the ground than the top of said curb stone, so when she parked, the bumper was resting directly on the top of said curb. When she backed out of the parking spot, she pulled the lower bumper off.
Best Regards,
Shipo
-Paul
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regards,
OW
Huh? That's never been a problem in any competently driven RWD BMW I've experienced. When all is said and done, the best traction control system resides between the driver's ears. As I've said before: Take any xi to a CCA track event and see how many times you get a point-by.. :P .
Let's see some pro test results to back up your claim! I saw a comparo of an G35 vs. AWD and there were some points scored over RWD. Perhaps is jut the BMW's for now.
Regards,
OW
Let me know if you find any AWD ///M cars...
Have you noticed thar the SP xi models lack the sports suspension of the RWD cars?
Ever driven either back to back on a closed course or auto-x?
AWD offers some advantages on low friction surfaces, and it also provides a formidable safety net for those who lack competent driving skills. I'll stick with RWD in my BMW cars, thanks.
And yes, I would take a 993 C4 ot a Jensen FF...
Yes, drove 330i non-sp and 330xi back to back but not on a closed course. Had the 330i for 1,000 miles. Suspension on AWD performed better, imo.
You have every right to your opinion and are probably way more competent than me. Let me know when you have performed the balanced test and I will be eager to learn.
You really do have to experience this in the wet conditions to believe.
Regards,
OW
I don't understand your point. What exactly does a $90,000 Porsche have to do with the 2007 BMW 3-series?
Regards,
OW
Title: All-Wheel Drive Makes the Carrera 4S an Even Better 911
First Impressions: Better-looking and easier to drive than the standard model, the Carrera 4S is as good as a 911 gets — for now.
Quote: "It's not until you lay into it around a tight bend that you begin to appreciate the Carrera 4's extra grip up front. Unlike the standard Carrera, which requires just the right amount of throttle, steering and confidence to get around a corner quickly, the 4S just yanks you around it. You never feel the power shifting between the front and rear wheels, it just goes right where you point it."
I continue my learning experience...
Regards,
OW
In what way? Transient response? Roll stiffness? Steady-state cornering? Yaw rate?
Let me know when you have performed the balanced test and I will be eager to learn.
OK, you've got me there; what's a "balanced test"?
You really do have to experience this in the wet conditions to believe.
As I've said before, AWD is a godsend if you don't feel confident driving in wet weather. In my experience, a good driver in a RWD car won't have any trouble keeping up with an equivalent AWD car in the rain. Will the AWD car be easier for an inexperienced driver to handle? Sure, but it can also be less fun to drive overall. I'll also admit that AWD cars can often perform better in winter conditions. Still, I've found that a RWD BMW fitted with good winter tires will do just fine.
You see, I simply prefer a car that rewards competent driving. Others want a car that can compensate for a lack of driving ability. To each his own. I can only hope that Munich doesn't dumb down the driving experience any further.
Which is why my next sled-if it's a BMW-will almost certainly be an E46 M3 or E39 M5. Or perhaps even an M1.
In what way? Transient response? Roll stiffness? Steady-state cornering? Yaw rate?
All of the above. The difference in the flatness on the same roads was quite noticeable at all speeds. I am sure SP i would be far better. Both cars had the same tires and slush box. I wonder if the AWD suspension setup has some stiffer suspension dampening.
The balanced test I was referring to would be a 330 i no SP vs. 330xi on a road course, slalom and skid pad, 0-60, 60-0 in the same day, same conditions.
I can say that I am really having fun with the xi. Time will tell when a truly experienced driver can prove that it takes skill to take a car with an AWD handicap and have great fun making points to his/her counterpart all day long at the track. You really can have fun, it's just different.
I hope that Munich always offers a choice.
Regards,
OW
BMW offers AWD versions of their sedans to customers in the smowbelt looking for all-weather traction - but at the expense of handling and acceleration. No all-wheel drive BMW is faster around a racetrack than it's RWD equivalent.
Porsche, on the other hand, offers AWD on the 911 as a performance "upgrade." AWD on the 911 helps minimize the rear wheel traction issues that are a normal part of the 911 driving experience (and arguably what makes the 911 so much fun to drive when in capable hands). AWD in the 911 makes the handling more neutral and easier to manage by less experienced drivers. So...
For the average driver, a C4S is certainly quicker around a racetrack than a C2S. For a skilled 911 pilot, the C2S and C4S are probably about an even match in lap times, but the C2S absolutely is more challenging, entertaining, and rewarding to drive.
And after all, isn't that why we're here? If you don't care about the drive, why not just get a Lexus and be done with it?
I will wait for the performance upgrade. I assume you have first-hand experience with BMW-AWD. Let's keep this topic open as the technology progresses.
In the meantime, check it out. It is really fun and will not bite you. Really!
So, if I add the HP and modify the suspension of this '06 330xi, it will be superior the the RWD equivalent.
I might just as well wait for the 335 xi which will probably beat an old M3 around the track.
Best Regards,
OW
Not likely. The "xi" will still weigh more, ride higher, handle worse and stop longer that the equivalent "i" model (and accelerate slower in all but the most slippery conditions).
"I might just as well wait for the 335 xi which will probably beat an old M3 around the track."
Not a chance. The E46 M3 has a superior power to weight ratio, superior suspension, superior rubber and superior brakes. The old M3 will easily hand any factory original/untweaked manifestation of the (alleged) future 335xi its lunch around a track.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I'll let you know when the 335 xi is announced. The new M3 is '09 which should be a real treat.
Best Regards,
OW
OK, let's see how this might go. Dinan sells a high flow intake, exhaust, and throttle body kit for the 330, so you can get another 15hp for $2,500. Dinan's "Stage 1" suspension kit costs $1,500. Figure another couple grand for installation.
What you end up with is a 330xi that costs $8,000 more than a 330i, and all it does better is climb your driveway in the snow.
Oh really? Says who?
Go figure...they publish the metrics. I'll check and post source.
Regards,
OW
Don coaxed the 335i to 60 mph in 5.1 seconds--only 0.3 seconds slower than the M3. The 335i covered the quarter-mile in 13.6 seconds @ 104 mph--again, only 0.2 seconds and 1 mph behind the M3.
2007 BMW 335i Rear View
So in an all-out drag race, the 335i comes close, but can’t quite match the M3’s blistering acceleration. Those numbers, though, only tell half the story. Have a look at the top-gear acceleration figures. In sixth gear, the M3 needs 14.7 seconds to get from 30 to 70 mph – but the 335i does it in only 12.5.
That, my friends, is the beauty of this engine. At full bore, it’s as fast as an M3. But at moderate engine speeds, it’s even faster. What a great way to keep us all interested until the next M3 comes comes along.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Best Regards,
Shipo
OW, you excel at quoting from magazine articles, but have you ever driven ANY car at the limit in an auto-x or on a track? There's a lot more to a good car than .01 second here or there. If all you care about are raw numbers from the buff books, why not just pick up a Neon SRT-4 and be done with it? In the meantime, those of us who drive AND read can draw our own conclusions from actual experience- as opposed to those who form their opinions based on an hour or so in front of the magazine rack at Borders.
Stickier tires, aggressively sport-tuned suspension, and superior brakes all equal later braking into a corner, more speed through the corner, and sooner power application out of the corner.
The engine is another factor. Top gear roll-on tests show the benefit of the E90's flatter power delivery - more power down low and a fatter midrange than the relatively peaky M3. The 335i is a more comfortable "around town" car. Removed from public streets, however, it's a completely different story. On the racetrack, where revs rarely dip below 4000 RPM, the M3 is in it's element. The M3's power-to-weight ratio above 4000 RPM puts the 335i to shame.
Later braking, faster cornering, sooner and harder acceleration, and quicker transitions (less weight transfer) mean the M3 is a vastly superior sporting machine than the 335i on pretty much any road.
Div2 - no, not in a million years. But if someone gave me a 335i, I wouldn't turn it away --- I'd trade it for an Exige!
Sadly, it seems that many of the so-called enthusiasts who prefer a manual transmission still don't want to shift it. My 1995 Club Sport is a barrel of laughs provided that you keep the tach above 4000 rpm. As a result, you have to shift it a lot more often than many people would prefer. As for me, I enjoy the frequent shifting; it gives me an opportunity to brush up on my heel and toe and double de-clutching skills.
But if someone gave me a 335i, I wouldn't turn it away --- I'd trade it for an Exige!
Ooooh... Good call!!!
You know, whenever I look at a new car, I'm always thinking, "Hmmmm, I wonder what used car I can get for the same amount of money?"
Your club sport doesn't look anything like this local club member's creation, does it?
http://www.bmwpugetsound.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=31203&highlight=corvette
Best Regards,
Shipo
I did some drags in the '70's, so I am familar with the limits regarding straight line acceleration.
I draw my conclusions from those like yourself who know and give opinions based on the numbers as well as those reporting from the mags. Everything has a slant.
When it comes down to it, the object of sharing information is a good thing and I highly respect yours and others views.
Regards,
OW
Stock cars rarely are that great on the track and track cars make great street cars if the point is local fun but daily driver duty will NOT be fun in a commute scenario. I assume thats why M, AMG, SRT, V are coming to fruition as tuner options to the plain Jane models.
So, the 335 remains a stock improvement to the 3. Got it.
Regards,
OW
I would have no trouble driving my M3 everyday in rush hour traffic if I needed to. Actually, my company car is a Ford Taurus now, so I do sometimes drive the M to work, just because I suffer from withdrawal if I don't get to drive the M after a few days. My M is quiet and comfortable enough for me, though I suspect that you would find it intolerable.
There are also a fair number of club members who bring their stock E46's, E90's, and E39's to track events. Sure a track car would be a superior performer, but even stock, a BMW is obviously designed to be sporty. They are all fun to drive and competent around a racetrack.
I think sport sedans are a reflection of us. As we (our demographic) have grown older, softer, lazier, and obtained more disposable income, the market has evolved to accomodate us. I think it's a shame that the lightest car BMW sells in the US weighs over 3000 lbs, and it is so complex that a shadetree mechanic wouldn't dare open it up.
That's why I drive a 20 year-old BMW. RWD as it should be, Limited Slip Differential, and no airbags, traction control, and creepy magic arms to hand me my seatbelt.
It's still the best and balanced handling in any car I've driven, including the '06 300C SRT8 I test drove and the standard i they lent me while the x'er was in service for 1,000 miles.
I would love to become road-course literate but I would rather have a dedicated corner carver such as the M as a tool to get the most out of the experience. Besides, the rft's are a downgrade for true performance driving off-street.
Regards,
OW
- Does it come with the alarm system in it or is that an extra accessory from the dealer?
- The manual has a section of TPM (Tire Pressure Monitor) and FTM (Flat Tire Monitor) via iDrive. All i see is FTM and not TPM. Anyone else have this?
- The manual also has a First-Aid Kit and Warning triangle in the trunk. I dont have it in mine.
I just want to make sure I dont have anything missing that I was supposed to have got.
Thanks!
Not hardly, though I have heard about that car. What a beast. I do think I would have used an S62 had I wanted a V8. Racing Dynamics even built a V12 ti in the late nineties. I seriously considered fitting a S14 but a fellow ti Register member tried it and simply couldnt make it work(crossmember problems IIRC). Sooner or later I'm going to buy a used M42 engine and it have rebuilt into something like one of these bad boys. A 0-60 time of 6.5s and a 1/4 mile ET of 14.5 @ 98 mph is plenty strong for a NA 2.1 liter engine. And, like your M3, my ti is lacks the Bavarian nannies that interfere with the driving experience.
They only come on ED cars, and will only reach the States if you hand carry them in your luggage as the First-Aid kit is non-U.S. compliant.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regards,
OW
I think MM is a great way to go to keep the balance of your club sport intact but add a little uumph at track-out.
When CCA's Gateway Tech was an annual St. Louis event(back in the eighties and nineties), Jim Rowe was there every year- he also attends most every O'fest. He's a brilliant guy and very entertaining to talk with.
I think MM is a great way to go to keep the balance of your club sport intact but add a little uumph at track-out.
That's my approach. I'm the original owner and I special ordered it so it's one of the few Club Sports without a sunroof. After 11 years and 107K miles it has become a member of the family.
Here's hoping that BMW builds (and sells in the US) another "keeper" someday soon...
I just might fly out there myself. The only problem is that I already have two BMW themed getaways set up for January and April, and I also plan to make O'fest in Texas. I fear that I might be pushing my luck with Mrs. div by adding TechFest to the agenda...
At TechFest 2006 Satch Carlson and I begged Larry Koch of BMW NA to consider bringing in a limited number of 130i M Sports:
Price the car at $35K and I think you could sell at least 15,000 with no trouble at all. Problem is, the suits at NA won't consider offering another hatch(M Coupes don't count for some reason). As an aside, you've probably heard that the ti was a failure in the US market. The truth is that the ti met almost every one of its sales targets. The problem was that NA wanted the ti to be a "conquest" car which would draw new BMW owners into the fold. As it turned out, the car didn't attract all that many first-time buyers. Instead, long-time BMW enthusiasts bought them for use as track rats(me), commuters(my wife), or a second car. Of course, the aggressive pricing meant that BMW was not making much money off the ti, so they decided to pull the plug.
I am a believer in AWD. I see the RWD and even the FWD "arguments" -- and often I agree with the RWD argument; often I am in violent agreement, in fact.
Yet all this talk about "whatever" on the race track is lost on me. I am not going to take my M3 or 335i (I don't have either one, that is a liberty I am taking for purposes of this post) out on the race track to attempt to prove which engine is more potent or which drive configuration is superior.
It just doesn't matter, for as a practical matter, soon ALL BMW's will be AWD. More accurately: very soon all models will offer at least one AWD version. Here in the US, we will have four (five if you count the X3) 3's offered in X drive; two or three 5's in X-drive; and next up, the 7 series will offer all wheels driven. Other BMW's over time will come with AWD offered. Some -- either low volume or the highest power versions -- will soldier on with RWD.
And, their steadfast refusal to offer AWD (at present) on M cars is for what reason? Performance? Bragging rights? A token for the faithful? Economics? Marketing?
If AWD were without merit (or merits, plural) it probably would NOT be offered and plans to expand its adoption no longer a secret (if they ever were.) I have to assume the reason to ultimately make "all BMW's" (as noted above) available with AWD has to do with "demand."
The 10th largest BMW dealer is here in our big town (or, if you like, small city.) The only reason, so they claim there, they do not sell MORE than 40% of the 100 cars per month they sell with X-drive is "inventory availability."
It is nearly impossible to even test drive an X-drive sedan -- they are ALL already claimed before they even have a chance to be prepped off the transport truck.
Cincinnati rarely has much snow; and, the snow we have sticks for at most a day or two. I suspect there could be a weather argument, but the dealer believes "X-drive just makes a BMW a better BMW."
Sales and marketing puffery? Perhaps. But, perception is reality. Most of the buying public (across many brands, many classes of cars and all price ranges) now looks at AWD as a means to improve the desirability, driveability, handling, performance and safety (in alphabetical order, I might add.)
The buying public, the customers that keep these companies advancing their "art and science" (with hats off to Cadillac for the phrase, as I recall) of building cars, has spoken. The customers want more and more and better AWD cars. From exotics to lowly cars of any "Caliber" (pun, er, "intended.")
Increasingly all BMW's -- but not just Bimmers -- highest performing offerings will migrate from 2 driven wheels to all wheels driven. The fact that an M5 or M3 "may never" offer AWD could, again, be part of a marketing message, part of an accountant's spreadsheet ("low volume, even with all volume demanded in AWD, the tooling costs are too high, Hans!") kind of thing.
I for one would welcome (will welcome) the 335xi coupe and sedan, followed of course by the 535xi and so on.
The debate will not, perhaps can not be settled here -- there are too many folks who believe RWD or AWD provides advantages (both on the road and track.) It matters little who can be proven right (if anyone), BMW and all its rivals already do or soon will be AWD.
And, all restaurants will be Taco Bell.
No, really. :surprise:
Drive it like you live (and where I live -- on the streets, roads and highways, not on the race track [and there is ample evidence that even there AWD rules] AWD is best.
To each his/her own.
Someday, you will walk into your BMW dealer and I predict the rep will "assume" you want the autotrans version of an X-drive car either in the 3,5 or 7 series. Today there is a 40% chance that indeed someday is already here.
:shades:
Very well said. RWD IS fun but I would offer the expert drivers on this board to see if they could ever have fun with AWD. Sorry, probably not.
I think mine is a blast (for a minivan-weighted sedan). This thing just won't let go! I guess I should take it to the track and gain experience...it would be like training wheels!
Like Anti-Lock brakes, the technology WILL march on.
My view is if I want a track car, I buy ('er lease) an ultimate track car. I am sure even a stock M will get boring on the track as years roll by and power increases, hence the modified set or just lease. And yes, the owner's club members will begin to take their awd to the track at the horror of the purists! (I remember when fuel-injected cars were scorned by some at the 1/4 mile track out on L.I. in the late '60's and early '70's. But supercharged was cool!) As Porsche already offers awd as a "performance upgrade", don't you think BMW will take that cue soon?
To each his own, right?
As I have pointed out many posts ago, the technology will get better so the advantage will always lean that way. Besides, if AWD weight disadvantage is solved (balanced weight+ add HP, mix well) and SP suspension is installed, why not have the option to "turn off" the system to revert to the desired of RWD? Then, you could see how good you really are against the electronic brain. Might be able to learn some new tricks to boot! Then, with the family in the car, just leave the AWD on and cruise with confidence(for all the untested drivers) or even let the wife or teenager drive!. After all, no matter what, there will always be the Track. That's where we have fun learning, right?
Can not wait for the new 335xi. I already know it won't have the sport suspension but sooner or later, this will change. I know I would tick that option.
Regards,
OW
1. "Normal"
2. "Sport 1"
3. "Sport 2"
4. "Dynamic/Air suspension"
4 1/2. "Dual diagnoal hydralic 'active, real time' suspension"
You can, on a BMW X3, get a sport suspension, but it is stiffer NOT lower. Audi and VW on their AWD cars offer stiffer AND lower ride heights in their sport packages.
The BMW sport suspensions we can have are, at present, stiffer and lower only in the RWD sedans (with a possible note pertaining to the new X5.)
When you configure, for instance, a BMW 530xi with the sport package the only performance enhancement you get is a better pair of shoes and socks (and maybe they are an inch bigger too.)
One could, of course, argue that the 530xi with upsized higher performance wheels and tires is pretty sporty, but unfortunately the spring rates and ride heights are pretty much normal and hence there is slightly more body roll than in a RWD version with the sport package.
Audi's go from stiff, to stiffer and in the RS (and even some of the S models) stiffest as you check off sport package options.
Beats me why BMW has been slow to do this, too.
If I had to choose between TechFest and the "1000 Rally," I know which one I'd choose.
If you do make your way out here, give me a heads up.