Pros and Cons of 4 wheel antilock brakes

iowabigguy

I would appreciate any constructive input on the
pros or cons of ordering this expensive option on a
new truck. I am mostly concerned with braking
ability on ice. I have heard stories that braking
on ice keeps the truck going straight but takes
much longer than standard brakes and rear wheel
antilock brakes. I have also read that at least 2
major insurance companies have dropped the premium
discount they used to give for having 4 wheel
antilock brakes on your vehicle.

mgdvhman

as far as being safer and stopping faster..

But I don't like the reactions they can have sometimes...

When braking on bumps....or say you are slowing down...and hit a short bump....the pedal sinks momentarily and makes a pulsating feeling....and sometimes makes a horrible grind noise...you want to let go of them....but you are supposed to keep it pushed..

I'd say still to get them...They are a good idea

- Tim

superjim2000

You never know when you'll need 4 wheel ABS but when you need it its a very good thing to have, and standard on GM's.

jescop

are just saving (or making) themselves more money if they are dropping the discounts. They also may figure almost every vehicle has them anyway.
The best thing about antilock brakes is as long as your wheels are spinning you have control of your vehicle. They will keep your wheels from locking up. You will not stop as fast with ordinary brakes when they lock up,(Thats why they would tell you to pump the brakes) not to mention you have no control at this point.
I drive on alot of ice and snow and wouldn't be without them.
The only drawback is like Tim said, it make a terrible noise when it activates.(only normal) and also after 25 years of pumping the breaks, it's really hard to break the habit, and that will diminish your braking ability.
This old dog will learn this trick, because they are the only way to go.

Jeff

andy_jordan

I don't agree - it's OK I have the flame retardant ready.

I don't think that the average driver is going to need the 4 wheel abs. Standard 2 wheel abs is more than adequate in most situations, and in virtually all situations if you drive sensibly.

I won't dispute that 4 wheel abs gives a slight advantage in some conditions, but I don't think that that advantage will make a real world difference - just think how rare it is for the 2 wheel abs to kick in.

4 wheel abs also has disadvantages, especially in off road conditions.

rrichf

andy,
Why a disadvantage off road?
Rich

andy_jordan

The ability to lock up wheels can be advantageous in some of the more severe offroading environments - I don't mean rock hopping (I would never put a locker on my truck) but I have found it useful to be able to lock the wheels.

towcrazy2

4-wheel ABS is GREAT! And I would have ordered it on my new Dakota Quad Cab were it not for the fact that I sometimes tow a fairly heavy (4,000 lb-plus) trailer. There are some serious safety concerns regarding the effect of 4-wheel ABS under a towed load.

I deferred to the standard rear-wheel ABS until the four-wheel system can be "massaged" to deal with the trailering issue. Given that about 70% or more of the braking load falls on the front wheels in a pickup, the rear-wheel ABS is a Godsend that keeps the vehicle running straight (based on experience)... But the four-wheel system? Well, I think it's still a debatable issue.

vince4

No question folks, buy the ABS. As someone said, if you drive reasonable you don't need them. But when is a panic move reasonable?

If the ABS prevents ONE accident in the LIFE of the vehicle you save more than the cost of the option plus a lot of hassle and maybe pain and suffering.

I've always believed this but had it reinforced recently. On the way home from a weekend trip the crowded freeway stopped and a lady in a GM car didn't notice until the last second. She slammed as hard as possible from 70mph, total panic stop, and just went straight as an arrow staying in her lane. Somehow she stopped with inches to spare but without ABS she would have likely locked a wheel and not made it or swerved and hit someone else.

Buy the ABS.

quadrunner500

The example of an off-road situation, where ABS brakes are a hinderance, as Andy was alluding, is descending a steep, deep-sand hill. When you can lock the brakes, the tires digs in, sand piles up in front of the tires and helps you stop. When the tires keep rolling as with ABS, you get on top of the sand and have a harder time getting stopped. It's been suggested that manufacturers offer an ABS bypass switch, like the air bag bypass switch, for these situations. Dodge I think is going to be the first.

I'll gladly take the more practical application on the street, where I do 99.99% of my driving, to have 4 wheel abs. Really nice on ice.

andy_jordan

Lets be clear on one thing, trucks have ABS as standard - the question is 4 wheel or 2 wheel. The example of the GM car - that's great (though the fault would have been the driver's for not being aware, not the car's braking system if an accident had occurred), but I don't think their is much difference in the stopping distances of 2 wheel or 4 wheel abs trucks - I may be wrong.

I do know that if a 4 wheel abs towing a load had been in that situation (as towcrazy suggested), the mess would have been very ugly.

vince4

My '89 F-250 had rear only ABS. It sucked. The brakes tended to get a little grabby when wet and once in the rain I ended up in the middle of an intersection because the front tires locked under light braking and I just slid. After 3 applications I ended up stopped in the middle of the intersection. I have no idea if the rears locked or not, it doesn't matter much once the fronts are.

vince4

Go take a look at topic #1885.

mgdvhman

may feel sometimes...or whatever funny things they may do....you must keep the pressure applied at all times and DO NOT let off.

- Tim

towcrazy2

Andy,
While it seems we're in the minority here, I appreciate your perpective on the towing issue!

I've had no problem here in snowy Michigan with the standard rear-wheel antilocks on the '95 Ram, nor do I anticipate any with the same standard system on the 2000 Quad Cab.

HOWEVER, I could easily describe at least two occasions, trailer under tow through snowy/icy descents in the Smokey Mountains in which 4-wheel antilocks would definitely have put me into jack-knife situations.

I LIKE the 4-wheel antilocks... In fact, I insisted that my wife order them on her 2000 Focus. She doesn't haul a trailer, so no sweat!

Yet, until there's either a disable switch or the system is somehow refined to compensate for towing loads, it's a gamble for my driving applications.

steveeast

Would someone please give me a simple explanation of why 4-wheel ABS is bad when towing. Thanks.

towcrazy2

Steve,

4-wheel ABS is not NECESSARILY "bad" for towing, provided that the trailer is equipped with electric brakes and that the driver has adjusted the brake controller so that it does not affect the braking dynamics of the tow vehicle.

Unfortunately, the technology of trailer brake control systems is in the "stone age" by comparison with the antilock system on a vehicle. ABS relies on wheel speed sensors that modulate brake pressure according to front/rear wheel speeds. Because trailer brakes may have the effect of either slowing or increasing front/rear vehicle wheel speeds, the computer may get false readings and modulate braking in a manner that upsets vehicle-trailer load balance.

If the trailer has no brakes, the situation becomes potentially more dangerous. If, for example, you're braking down a descent... The trailer is "lifting" the rear end of the vehicle... The wheel sensors tell the computer to "back off" on the rear binders... The front brakes are doing all the work... The rear of the truck then "cops out" to create a jackknife situation.

I may be wrong on this, but that's the best layman's answer I can offer other than a good deal of experience in towing situations. If you're not towing, go for the 4-wheel ABS by all means! If you're towing anything more than say 1,000 lbs, my humble advice would be to forego the system.

I, too, would welcome an explanation from more studious participants!!!

steveeast

Steve,

Sigh! I really appreciate the explanation. I don't like it, but I appreciate it :-)

My boat rig is about 1400lb, with no brakes. I already had enough problems trying to find what each variant of Ranger is capable of towing and now this little bombshell gets thrown into the ring!

(Does anyone know of a site that gives *accurate* towing info for the Ranger? Not just basic data, but for all the engine, axle, manual/auto, 2wd/4wd combos? And explains the difference between standard and maximum towing loads.)

towcrazy2

Steve,

I've been working on some certification testing for Ford, and have a 2000 Source Book for Car/Light Truck in-hand... I'll check this afternoon on towing specs for the Ranger and get back with you.

I believe what you're looking for are two numbers:

GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) - What your truck is capable of carrying including passengers, payload and applicable options.

GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) - What your truck is capable of in terms of GVWR plus towing load.

I think I can get those numbers for you, and will get back.

Your 1,400 lb. trailer load doesn't sound as though it should be any problem whatsoever with the Ranger! Consider that a number of Ford front-wheel-drive passenger car models are rated for a 1,000 lb. towing load... And you're talking about a TRUCK!

As to the 4-wheel ABS issue... Because your trailer is relatively light and not equipped with brakes, I'm not certain what the potential consequences might be. My suggestion would be to contact a reputable trailer retailer (campers, boats, etc.) and discuss it.

Bear in mind that my decision to defer to the standard rear-wheel anti-locks is because I tow a 5,000 lb. tandem-axle equipped with electric brakes. I know (from experience) that adjustable trailer brake controllers are not "precise," and that interaction between the vehicle anti-lock system and trailer brake system can be potentially dangerous under some circumstances. However, if I were towing a 1,400 lb. load, I'm not so sure that I wouldn't go with the 4-wheel anti-locks (How's that for a "non-answer?").

I'll get back to you with those specs ASAP.

towcrazy2

Steve,

Unrelated, and something you're probably already aware of... But be CERTAIN to order a limited-slop differential on that Ranger!

Boat ramps can be tricky... And I'll never forget the sight of a brand new Cadillac slip underwater as the guy's boat floated to the surface!

steveeast

Towcrazy,

The look on the Cadillac owner's face must have been something to see! My best ramp glitch so far is forgetting to take off the transom tie-downs then wondering why the boat wouldn't roll down into the water - a lot less painful than launching a Caddie.

I had intended to get the LSD on the Ranger because of what I've read here. But I'd like to understand why it will help me at the ramp.

towcrazy2

Steve,

Not sure what condition the ramps are in where you are, but here in Michigan, they tend to be pretty lousy, with lots of "underwater moss" growing on them. My opinion regarding the diff is based on experience more than anything else.

Had a '90 S-10 4X4 with the diff, and launched/pulled my boats in the 2WD mode repeatedly without any problem. Switched to a '95 Ram 4X4 and it was a whole different story... No way was I going to pull out the ski boat in 2WD... Tried 4-high, and still couldn't get a grip... Finally relented to 4-low and managed to get the thing out.

steveeast

Towcrazy,

I look forward to the info. We currently pull the boat with my wife's Subaru which is rated to pull 2000 lb. But it's a lot tougher when the load is being pulled up that wet ramp from a standing start with the trailer wheels off the end of the ramp and in the muck. Especially this year in Minnesota with the water levels down so much.

So I'm very conservative about tow ratings. For the Ranger I've seen everything from 1500 to 6000+ lbs depending on where I look. For example, http://www.motortrendauto.com says 2000lb for all models, http://www.carsdirect.com gives 6060lb but doesn't say in what configuration.

Ford's site is a masterpiece of ambiguity: "When outfitted with the available V6 engine and class III trailer hitch receiver can tow trailers weighing up to 6060 lbs (when properly equipped)". Which V6? And does "when properly equipped" apply to the truck or the trailer? Whichever it applies to, what the hell does it mean?!

Very frustrating.

steveeast

Towcrazy,

Ramps in Minnesota vary a lot, but at the moment I just stay away from the bad ones! From your experiences the LSD definitely sounds like the way to go. And since it's relatively cheap, you can't really go wrong by getting it.

towcrazy2

Steve,

Unfortunately I don't have the Ford Truck data book in front of me, but the car source book is here, and contains some conpetitive comparison stuff on Ford light trucks... Here's my take:

Ranger XLT Regular Cab SWB 4X2 with the 4.0L V6 engine:
Max. towing capacity (equipped with heavy-duty service/trailering package) is 6,060 lbs. Generally, the trailering package includes a receiver hitch and requires a heavy-duty service group (HD battery, radiator, transmission cooler, etc.)

Ranger XLT SuperCab 4-door 4X4 with the 4.0L V6 engine:
Max. towing capacity (again with the HD/trailering package) is 5,620 lbs.

4X4 models ALWAYS have a lower towing capacity than 2X4 models. Again, I wish I had the towing data on the 3.0L V6 and 2.5L I-4, but my source material on light trucks is limited.

My suggestiion would be to contact a sales guy who's knowledgeable and interested enough to pull out the Truck Data Book and give you some accurate numbers. I suspect that the low numbers you've found pertain to trucks that are not equipped with the trailer package and receiver hitch. They're probably "base numbers" that apply to the standard bumper hitch.

One Ranger advantage I did notice in the comp/comp materials is that it has rack-and-pinion steering versus recirculating ball (more common). Based on my limited experience with the Dakota Quad (first year with R&C steering), I think you'll be pleased with the handling! I have RB steering in my '95 Ram, and have driven earlier Dakotas with RB steering... The difference in steering preciseness with the new R&P system is REMARKABLE!

towcrazy2

Steve,

Must say that you've got me stumped on the discrepancy in towing capacities of manual versus auto... But again, you've piqued my curiousity!

I did some service training on the Toyota Tundra last fall, and have a full compliment of specs along with service manual... I'll check on it when I'm up for air.

For my purposes, the auto trans is the only way to go... Of course, I'm talking long-distance towing (2500 miles-plus) versus the short hauls. Granted, it requires that the overdrive be switched off, but the convenience and comfort of the auto seem worth the cost to me.

A quick aside on the towing... I haul a 14-foot enclosed (Pace) tandem that tops out at about 5,000 lbs. with a couple of Harleys, tools and fishing gear aboard... First run from Michigan down to the Keys was nothing short of HAIRY because I couldn't see the cars riding 6-10 feet in back of the trailer until I'd begin changing lanes only to have them pop out from "nowhere" and shoot around me! Several near-misses! Tried extended trailer mirrors, but it didn't help much.

Finally, out of frustration and the hope of avoiding accidents, I installed a small TV camera on the top/rear of the trailer... A 5-inch monitor sat temporarily on the dash... No more fits of anxiouty!

I'll get back to you with what I find on the Tundra specs.

roger350

In applications where the tow ratings are power limited, which the Ranger would be, an auto should be rated higher than the manual. The torque converter in the automatic multiplies torque in the same way gears do. This is why the ratios in automatics, and the rear end gears, are usually numerically lower than those of manuals. Because they don't need as much torque multiplication from the gears, as they are getting some from the torque converter. It has to do with the slip that occurs in the viscous coupling of the torque converter.

steveeast

Roger350,

Can you run that past me again? I have to confess I don't understand what you're saying - my fault, I'd make a lousy engineer/mechanic.

steveeast

Towcrazy,

I'm going to go with the auto in order to get the higher tow rating. I will also get the LSD, but stick with the 3.73 axle ratio.

Loved your idea of fitting a TV camera to the back of your rig. I could do with one of those when trying to back mine into the garage with one car already parked there. The Ranger will be high enough to see over the top of the boat, as opposed to my wife's Subaru where I'm looking round it.

towcrazy2

ROGER:
Interesting and seemingly valid point you make on tow loads for auto versus manual! It's clear that you have a very good grasp of the dynamics of fluid power!

STEVE:
I don't think you'll be sorry for going with the auto/LSD combo. It's not just the towing capacity and traction that count... It's also the driving characteristics of the auto vs. manual.

Picture, if you will, a slick boat ramp and the manual transmission. You've loaded up your boat. You apply power... Begin letting out the clutch... Release the emergency brake... With all that's going on between your hands, feet and eyes, the left foot pops out an inch and you've broken traction. Conversely, with the auto trans... You drop it into low... Apply some power and release the emergency brake gradually... Power is controlled, and you maintain your grip.

Again, I'm no expert... But I've done it both ways, and my strong feeling is that you won't be sorry for your choices!

steveeast

Towcrazy2,

I have a feeling you're right and it will turn out to be easier at the ramp with the auto. My only problem is that I've always driven a manual and the change will take some getting used to. The one time I pulled a boat out with an auto I found myself wanting to put my left foot on the brake before shifting the right foot! I guess I just don't like an idle left foot.

My wife's Subaru has a wonderful gizmo called a hill-holder clutch. Depress both clutch and brake, then release brake - the vehicle is automatically held by the clutch, no need to use the emergency brake. Feed in power, slowly up on the clutch and you're away. Takes a leap of faith the first couple of times you use it (are you SURE I'm not going to end up in the lake when I release the brake?), but it really works well.

towcrazy2

Steve,

Hope you'll just trust your selection of equipment... I don't think you'll be sorry.

BTW... Remember how it felt and sounded when that trailer tongue "thumped" on the hitch ball between shifts? I sure do! And I'll never look back!

roger350

I'll try to explain it better this time. First, you are going to have to trust me on a little physics, because I am not really qualified to be teaching anyone here. Gear boxes are all about multiplying torque. It is just like using leverage to move something more easily. A small driven gear turns fast, and drives a larger gear. The larger gear turns slower. We have some physical equations that tell us this drop in rotational speed across the two gears increases the torque across the two gears. Now lets talk about torque converters. A torque converter is a fluid coupling. There are two turbines inside of them. One is attached to the engine flywheel, the other is attached to the transmission input. The torque converter is filled with trans fluid. The engine side turbine turns with the engine. Think of this turbine like a paddle wheel, as it turns it turns the fluid. The rotation of the fluid then makes the transmission side turbine spin. If you are following me here, it should not be a stretch to believe me when I tell you this "fluid connection" between the two sides is not exactly perfect. The transmission side turbine does not turn quite as fast as the engine side, so it ends up multiplying torque across the system, just like the slower bigger gear in the gear box. Because you get this torque increase from the torque converter, if you have two identical trucks, one with an auto, one with a manual, both with a 4:10 rear end lets say, the automatic truck will be able to pull a little more because it has the added torque multiplication because of the torque converter. It is seeing more torque at the rear wheels essentially. Hope that explains it. If not, maybe someone else who has a better grasp of it can tackle this one.

roger350

After reading my own post I decided that in my effort to describe how the torque converter works I was inaccurate. I guess I was trying to simplify it too much in my own mind, and I slipped up. A good demonstration of how the two turbines interact would be to place two fans on a table directly in front of each other. If you turn the power on for one of them, the other will start turning also, because it is being driven by the air coming off the powered fan. In a torque converter the only difference is that instead of air, the fluid is trans fluid. So, the fluid isn't really spinning, like I said before, it is being driven forward by the airfoils on the driven turbine, and then driving the airfoils on the trans turbine.

steveeast

I did the business - I ordered the Ranger. 3.0, auto, 4.10 LSD axle plus a bunch of "stuff". Regular cab because that's what fits in our garage. Delivery 3-4 weeks. I actually live closer to where they're assembled (St. Paul) than the dealer.

Towcrazy - many thanks for your help in making me realise what I actually needed. I'm looking forward to not worrying whether my wife's clutch is going to burn out on a bad ramp!

Roger - your second explanation made things a lot clearer. Whether I could now explain it to a 3rd person is another question!

cdean

i disagree with the arguement that 4x ABS is bad when towing. Old trailer brake controllers-yes, a problem. but the example of towing down a descent with the trailer pushing the rear upward was wrong. Even though the trailer is pushing the weight to the front wheels, that does absolutely nothing to the wheel speed, which is what drives the ABS.

I've driven 2x then 4x ABS. I've pulled trailers with 2x and then 4x ABS. 2x seems good enough, but until you get into a bad situation, you won't fully appreciate 4x. From my experience, 4x ABS is the ONLY way to go.

especially since 99.997% of us will never have our trucks going down a steep sandy incline trying to stop.

towcrazy2

If I were not hauling a 5,200 lb load with a 4,000 lb truck, there's NO QUESTION that I'd have 4X ABS rather than standard rear-wheel ABS.

As you pointed out in your post, a lot of it has to do with driving CONDITIONS.

I haul a 14-ft. enclosed tandem trailer with 4-wheel electric brakes, and use a Techonsha electronic controller. At best, driving conditions on I-75 through the Smokey Mountains in February are miserable (snow/ice)... I found that in 4WD, when the rear-wheel antilocks were inoperable in the the Ram, my braking efficiency was significantly better than in 2WD when the rears were operable... Go figure!!!

By the way... Again, when my wife ordered her new Ford passenger car, I INSISTED that she order 4X antilocks. I BELIEVE in them under normal driving conditions.

mgdvhman

..and like them MOST of the time.....but panic situations don't happen in "Normal" driving conditions..

- Tim

meredith

After 30 or more days of inactivity....

this topic is being "frozen." It will be archived or deleted in the next 10 days or so.

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