Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
On another website, there are court documents that show 77 National RV motorhomes being sold by the bankruptcy court for what appears to be 70% of retail. The company buying these units could easily sell the motorhomes for 50% off of MSRP and still make a good bit of profit.
Here is the court document that lists the units for sale and their cost.
http://claimsmanager.com/SQLSCannedVD/CMSDocs/13870_DKT%20138.pdf
M156
In my opinion, National was way behind the curve as far as contemporary units..... I did not follow them very closely because they are medium to lower priced motorhomes (below $250,000). One thing I remember when seeing a National RV at a show was that when everyone was putting in pana-view windshields, they were still using two piece windshields that have the bar in the middle.
No telling which straw broke the camels back, as with anything, it's a combination of a lot of internal and external forces (slow market, high gas prices, units not competitive, internal money problems, bad management, etc). Again, I didn't follow them that closely but they do have a loyal following by reading some of the sites devoted to National.
I would say National RV, Fleetwood, Damon, Four Winds , Georgie Boy, would be competitors to each other (class A motorhomes from $90,000-$250,000).
Upper end competitors would be Monaco which also owns (Holiday Rambler, Beaver, Safari), Dutch Star, Newmar, Nimbus, Country Coach, Tiffin and (lower end)...Winnebago/Itasca, Alpha See Ya, etc.
The top RV manufacturers are companies that convert the Prevost chassis to a motorcoach, such as Marathon and Millennium. Newell uses their own chassis. All of these units start at about a million and go up from there.
Mark
From this listing:here
"YOU ARE BIDDING ON THE LAST 2008 NATIONAL RV SURF SIDE SS34E AT A USED PRICE OF ONLY $89,998! THE NATIONAL FACTORY CLOSED, SO ALL NATIONAL RV UNITS MUST BE SOLD AS USED, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NEW! THE MSRP PRICE ON THIS MOTORHOME IS USUALLY $111,633! THAT IS A SAVINGS OF $21,635!!!
Can't say I'm impressed with the discount though.
I wouldn't buy a National RV product unless it was at least 50% off MSRP.
Mark
When driving one of these wonderful behemoths, it's good to always take your time when doing EVERYTHING!!!
About a month ago, I had taken the 'baby' in for an oil/filter change, lube, etc...(the Cummins engine takes about 26 quarts of oil). It took most of the day and was 75 miles from the house. So, while it was being pampered, a friend of mine and I went to see a movie at the local cinema.
We pick up the 'baby' at about 4:00 PM and start driving back to the storage garage 75 miles away. Traffic was fine, a little heavy, so we just sailed along enjoying the scenery and chit chatting.
Once we got to the storage unit, with the little Honda in tow, we unhook the Honda and put away all of the towing gear and the new front car cover that I bought to keep rocks, etc, from hitting the Honda.
Then my co-pilot remember there was some things in the back closet that needed to be removed. To get to the back closet, one of the slides needs to be extended so my co-pilot opened the drivers rear slide. Everything was removed and then it was time to put the 'baby' in the storage garage.
The way that the facility is set up, it's best if I make a loop around the facility so that I can get lined-up better to aim straight into the garage. It was getting dark and, honestly, we were tired from a full day of fun!
As I slowly creeped into the garage I hear this terrible crunching metal sound. My co-pilot said "the rear slide is out!" I wanted to throw-up right there!
It was really both our faults being that I didn't realize it was out and my co-pilot didn't see it out when guiding my in the garage. Luckily, the trim piece that surrounds the slide out box was the part that got crunched. I had to put the slide back in but left it sticking out 4 inches so that the bent metal would not damage the side of the coach.
A call to Monaco the next day found me a great repair shop just 65 miles away (right near the oil change place). They were able to take it the next day and they kept it for a week. They did an absolutely beautiful job replacing that piece and matching the five colors in the design.
Of course my wallet was $2,100 lighter. I didn't want to make a claim with the insurance company as I'll save that for anything big that I hope never happens!
So, the moral of the story is, check and re-check EVERYTHING, even if your tired. :sick: When I look back, I'm thankful that no one was hurt which is the most important thing.
Another thing that puzzles me is that I have lights on the dash that tell me the step is out or that one of the bay doors is open but no lights to tell me that a SLIDE IS OUT!!!
Mark
My dad told my Mom that since they would be on the road early he was not going to level up. He was just going to hook up water and the TV.
Before he went to bed he went out side and got all packed up so he could get on the road early.
Around 4:00am he woke up and decided to get on the road. He packed up the night before so he just figured he would get going.
When he pulled out he all kinds of commotion. He forgot to disconnect the TV and the water from the hook ups.
It goes back to your check and check again theory. Kind of like building something. Measure twice cut once.
When I was in Texas last year, I had the fan lids open for air circulation and a few leaves fell in on the blades. It sounded like putting playing cards with clothes pins on your bicycle tires like we did when we were kids!
So, I have ordered roof top vent covers for each of the three vents. That way, I can leave them open when it's raining for extra air-flow. Without the covers, the vents will automatically close if it's raining.
I have also ordered a pull-out window awning for the bathroom window. All of the other important windows have pull-out exterior awnings but the bathroom window did not. If the sun is on that side of the coach, that small lavatory can get pretty warm. The awning should be in next month and I have an appointment for installation of the awning and vent covers.
Other than that, I think we'll be good-to-go to keep the sun out of the coach during the hot summer months. Last year, I had a front window sun-shade made that snaps on; I also have sun-shades for the driver's window and for the entry door. It allows for you to see out the windows during the day and no one can see inside. At night, you can see in a little. But, it does keep the coach cooler when the sun is beaming down on the large front glass. :shades:
Hopefully, other motorhome owners will chime in!
Mark
It shouldn't take much more than reed switches, wiring, a buzzer, and three or four hours labor. Certainly a lot less than another trim replacement would be.
On a different note, it's interesting how similar the systems and interiors can be on both R/Vs and boats. We have a 32 foot catamaran sailboat and apart from the obvious design differences, once inside it's as comfortable and well equipped as a similarly priced R/V.
The mesh sun-screens are popular on boats too!
And you see so many larger boats than this! I can't do boats... too much motion for me.
Mac, I don't think I'm going to put buzzers in, etc.... it will NEVER happen again! I can guarantee that! LOL! :sick:
Just the insurance on that would stress my budget!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
How unfortunate to be located in an area where mother nature can change your business model at a drop of a hat! This park has gravel roads with concrete parking pads. I would think that the flood should not hurt the pads but the gravel may very well be washed away.
Then I think of all of the electrical posts and several laundry buildings around the property that are at ground level. I noticed that the "care takers" house is on 10 foot stilts! The office is at street level..... what a mess that is going to be to clean up!
Can you imagine touring the country in your RV and then the sky starts getting black and you are faced with severe weather and a tornado appears? That's a big fear that I have and we'll be traveling across the country this summer that will include Kansas and Oklahoma (tornado country). They say NOT to get under a bridge as the wind will funnel through pulling you out. The best place to be is laying flat in a ditch (if you can find one).
Some parks have storm shelters and a weather radio is a must in case your are sleeping when severe weather hits. A 40,000 lbs motorhome could become a flying missile (I would imagine). :sick:
Mark
I guess a boat is starting to look a little more attractive now! :P
In regard to the weather I can understand your concern about tornados as unlike a hurricane, there's usually very little warning. TV will give you general information and up to date satellite imagery but you'll still be more reliant on what you can see around you.
Personally, given the choice between a bridge or being out in the open, I'd pick the bridge every time. I'd pull the RV off to the side, as close to the embankment as I could, then I'd climb the embankment and squeeze myself in where the top of the slope meets the underside of the bridge.
Hope you never have to look for that bridge though!
That makes me feel better as I don't have to look for another park. I can just imagine how much work they will have to do to put the park back in order. :sick:
Mark
My plan is to run about 10,000-15,000 miles this year in the coach. At $4.25 per gallon, it will run me about $6,000-$9,000 for fuel. It is what it is..... the only way for people to save is to stay closer to home. But, I have a very long trip planned that will cover all of the things that I want to see. Once that is done, I could probably stay closer to home but not just yet. :P
The things I want to see are Niagara Falls, the Eastern Coast up to Maine, the Great Lakes, Yosemite NP, Yellowstone NP, Mount Rushmore (just to mention a few).
At least my Honda CR-V tow vehicle gets 27-28 on the hwy!
Mark
Course we'll only use the TT if I get off my butt and fix what I broke last year, lol. Sometimes I should really just smack myself!
Plan is to enjoy it this summer and sell it next spring, we don't use it enough to justify having it anymore.
As a toad, shouldn't it be getting 27-28 less than that? :P
Had to buy a total front cover for the Honda as I got a broken windshield and broken fog light. I thought the rock guard at the back of the coach would have been enough but it wasn't.
The cover protects the bumper to the windshield. I haven't had to install or remove when it's raining so that will happen at sometime I'm sure!
For what it cost me to fix the fog light and new windshield... the car cover would have been free!
Mark
I can manage 1,200 miles to a tank if I run it near empty but I start looking for fuel at half a tank try to never let it get below a quarter. Slowing down to 55-60 has help add 1.5 miles to the gallon giving me a solid 8.0 mpg avg.
It happened.... While in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago, I had to empty my tanks and attach the Honda CR-V in a down-pouring rain. I put the front cover on the Honda the night before so that saved me from having to mess with that in the rain.
It really wasn't that bad. Once I finished all the closing procedures and connected the toad, I just toweled off and put on dry clothes and off we went.
Mark
-mike
Mark
Thank goodness I didn't have to buy diesel there as I filled up in Minnesota and didn't need fuel until we entered Michigan. I did need to buy fuel for the Honda and it was $1.41 a liter.... so, that works out to $5.34 a gallon!!! Funny thing though, diesel seemed to be the same prices as regular unleaded.
The most I paid on the 3,500 mile trip was $4.99 a gallon. I've slowed down to 55-58 and I'm getting about 8.5 mpg's which is not bad weighing in at 40,000 lbs and pulling a 3,400 lb Honda.
Seeing this country by motorhome just can't be beat. I'll look back in 20 yrs and say, "I'm glad I traveled when gas was cheap"!! LOL!
Mark156
But now I wonder if buying one now might be a very smart move. I mean, right now the dealers are probably throwing themselves in front of your car to get you to stop and look at their products. You could get one heck of a deal.
This could be similar to the strategy of buying a big gas guzzling SUV and parking it in your driveway until gas prices go down.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Remember also that although the cost of fuel for each trip may be high, most RVs (especially Class As) do a very low annual mileage compared to most cars, making the price of gas a minor consideration when it comes to total cost of ownership.
You would think the dealers were falling all over themselves making deals but what I've been reading on the RV sites is that dealers are not giving huge discounts. Sounds crazy to me but what do I know! I guess the market is tightening up so they try to squeeze as much profit per unit as they can.
Word has it that since several RV manufactures have gone out of business in the last few months (Alpha Leisure, Travel Supreme, National RV) and Monaco is closing most of their plants in Indiana keeping their main plant in Coburg, OR, where I took delivery of my coach, that used units will keep a very strong price in the next few years.
I bought my motorhome taking delivery in April 2007 (it's a 2008). I have almost 17,000 mile on it now and will start a 2,000 mile trip in 3 weeks heading back to California. Mac is right, gas is not the biggest expense when you look at the whole picture.
I have a rolling suite (king bed, leather seating, dishwasher, washer and dryer and a full size fridge). We never have to unpack, can eat our own food or go out, we are completely self-contained if needed..... so, I'm happy!
Mark156
That is the opposite of what I heard after stopping by a large RV dealership last week. I was told they are selling two of their diesel-pusher motorhomes for $9K and $12K LESS than what they paid for them, and they recently sold one for a $15K loss.
These are RVs in the $150K range, so the market may be different for premium coaches like your Monaco.
Just like with trucks and SUVs, dealers are not trying to "squeeze as much profit per unit as they can", they are simply praying they can unload these dinosaurs at a loss before the market goes away completely, and they are left with a lot full of vehicles and no buyers.
There is literally almost NO traffic/potential buyers for these vehicles right now. Dealers can either choose to take a few thousand dollar loss to get rid of the inventory, or be stuck with these vehicles forever and lose $150K.
RV customers are a whole different breed than a car customer. And too, RV's are homes to live in, not just transportation. Fuel prices are not the only issue that has effected that market, it's credit availability (which I think was more of a factor). Part of the problem too is that home prices are down so people can't get their equity out to buy a RV.
A dealer will not stay in business very long selling below cost.
Mark
My thoughts exactly. "I'm selling it to you at below my cost" is hardly a new sales pitch.
A dealer will go out of business even faster if they sell WAY below cost!!!
They need to unload their "bad" merchandise (i.e. gas guzzlers) before the market for these vehicles gets even worse or disappears entirely.
As you correctly pointed out, RV's and any other vehicle are depreciating assets, losing value every day they sit on a dealer lot. In the market we are in, the dealers likely have two options...
1) Get rid of these depreciating assets NOW at a relatively small loss, while they are still worth something and buyers are there.
2) Hold out for a profit on these vehicles and pray that a buyer will come in who is willing to pay that price.
If #2 doesn't work out, the dealer will fold much sooner than if he had used #1.
If it's between losing $5K and getting the unit off your lot now, or potentially losing ~$50K by having it sit on the lot waiting for a non-existent profitable buyer, which would you choose?
Making a profit on these vehicles, in this market, is a tough proposition. Instead of a profit, the decision may be more like "lose a little or lose a lot."
So many variables factor into that constantly changing figure, from the floor plan cost to the price of the daily donuts. Because you're told it's being sold at a loss doesn't necessarily make it so.
The wringing of the salesman's hands in supposed financial pain is a notoriously unreliable guide.
Secondly, RVs and especially Class As are probably one of the consumer vehicle types that are least affected by the cost of gas. Most buyers usually have a high net worth and a high disposable income. I don't see the market disappearing any time soon, though it may thin out in the middle with high end and low end taking the bulk of the sales.
"I think that there are two issues here. First is the matter of true dealer cost, a figure only known to the dealer principal (and possibility his accountant)..."
Everything you say here is a fact and I don't think anyone would dispute it, but it really has nothing to do with the point of my last post.
Are you saying that RV/Travel Trailer/Truck/SUV manufacturers are not being forced to sell this distressed merchandise for a loss in many cases? That is the point I am making.
"Secondly, RVs and especially Class As are probably one of the consumer vehicle types that are least affected by the cost of gas. Most buyers usually have a high net worth and a high disposable income. I don't see the market disappearing any time soon, though it may thin out in the middle with high end and low end taking the bulk of the sales.
You are defining a much narrower market than I was. My point was much broader...basically any expensive, fuel thirsty vehicle (any type of RV, travel trailer, SUV, truck). The average purchaser of these types of vehicles definitely does NOT have a high net worth.
Secondly, although you mention these types of vehicles are "least affected by the cost of gas", they are affected by the overall economy, housing market and general economic uncertainty.
You mention that you don't see the market "disappearing" anytime soon and it may "thin out" a little, but I think you are overstating viability in this market. Of course RV's will not disappear completely, but they are in for some very hard times.
All you have to do is look at the number of RV/travel trailer manufacturers who have gone out of business recently and the production cutbacks of those who are still in business.
GM lost $15 billion dollars in one quarter!!! Ford lost nearly $9 billion. Do you honestly think RV manufacturers are in a better position to make money in this market?
No, the point I was making is that you'll never know if they were being sold at a loss, or at least not until the final accounting after bankruptcy.
"You are defining a much narrower market than I was. My point was much broader...basically any expensive, fuel thirsty vehicle (any type of RV, travel trailer, SUV, truck). The average purchaser of these types of vehicles definitely does NOT have a high net worth."
That's because this is a 'Motorhomes' discussion, which implies Class A, coachbuilt, high-end etc. I certainly agree that economic status of those buyers is much different to the average purchaser of travel trailers, SUVs and trucks.
"GM lost $15 billion dollars in one quarter!!! Ford lost nearly $9 billion. Do you honestly think RV manufacturers are in a better position to make money in this market?"
Absolutely, or at least the savvy ones will. I stand by what I said before. I think the market will polarize. There will always be a low end, maybe even an unfinished shell for the customer to fit out himself. There will always be a high end, and there's a lot of money to be made there, whether it's RVs, cars, or boats.
It's always easier for a small manufacturer or business to reposition itself in the marketplace than it is for a large one. Everything can be done more quickly, from making and implementing decisions, to changing product lines, to adjusting workforce levels, even to physical relocation. Things are very different for the likes of Ford and GM.
Overall, I'm sure total sales will be down. But for the manufacturers and dealers that remain, the profits will continue to be there, maybe even more so. I think that the decrease in both manufacturers and dealers will be in the volume market, where large numbers were being sold for a minimal profit on each unit.
Big is good in a growing economy, small is better in a shrinking one.
The definition of a "motorhome" is any motorized vehicle that is equipped with self-contained living quarters. This would include Class A, Class B or Class C, which can vary in price from ~$30K to $3 million. So potential buyers of motorhomes are from all economic levels, just just the rich.
"It's always easier for a small manufacturer or business to reposition itself in the marketplace than it is for a large one. Everything can be done more quickly, from making and implementing decisions, to changing product lines, to adjusting workforce levels, even to physical relocation. Things are very different for the likes of Ford and GM."
If a small business does not have large sums of cash on hand, then they are not going to be able to do all of the things you mention above. Re-tooling an entire manufacturing process/product line, or relocating your entire facility, costs lots of money. How is a small business without the the cash reserves (like GM) going to pay for that?
If this was the case, then why are all of these companies going out of business?
"Overall, I'm sure total sales will be down. But for the manufacturers and dealers that remain, the profits will continue to be there, maybe even more so. I think that the decrease in both manufacturers and dealers will be in the volume market, where large numbers were being sold for a minimal profit on each unit."
You made my point...total sales will be down...that is all I am saying here. Of course, the few manufacturers and dealers that remain will be able to make money, because everyone else has gone out of business.
I think you would agree, at a macro level, the RV industry as a whole is in bad shape right now and will continue to be if market conditions stay as they are. Overall, units sold/sales prices/profits will go down and companies will go belly up.
For instance, I believe that small companies can always be more flexible and act more quickly than large ones, and that large cash reserves are not required to do so. If funds are required to change course, then there are many differing sources of finance available other than writing a check.
However, we certainly agree that total sales will be down, as they will be for almost all major discretionary purchases.
Almost every industry in the current economy is suffering right now, except for those providing essential goods and services (and maybe those who provide comfort and feel-good items like chocolate and cookies
Also, the warranties are basically one year on the house, three years on the chassis and five years on the engine (my RV personally). A year goes by SO fast that it's hard to find a problem until the year is gone.
Traveling down our American highways will jar your teeth! Since we generally travel in the right lane, it can be rougher and some potholes you can't avoid. Sometimes I'm amazed that the Motorhome stays together as well as they do from all the vibration/bumps/potholes.
Currently, I have my RV in the shop for maintenance (lube the chassis, fix a bay door lock, caulk a window, etc). I ran out to the facility as I needed to get something out of the closet. The RV should be ready on Monday. I was surprised that there were customers on the lot. It's not totally dead!
I would really like to know what the raw cost of my RV on completion. We received 22% off MSRP on a 2008 unit in January of 2007 (special order). So, that was $101,000 off list.
MM.
................I would really like to know what the raw cost of my RV on completion. We received 22% off MSRP on a 2008 unit in January of 2007 (special order). So, that was $101,000 off list.
As we all know, the invoice pricing information on regular autos bears no real relation to dealer cost, but at least it's a starting point.
However, allowing for the fact that people sometimes exaggerate the deals they get, we do now have forums and mailing lists that weren't available in the fifties to talk with others that might have made a deal on similar RV.
That 22% sounds like a good deal to me, and it probably sounds like a great deal to the guy that got 15%, though the guy that says he got 30% probably isn't so impressed!
The real price you paid can only be measured after it's sold, and if at that time you can say that the total cost of ownership was good value for the times spent in it, then you got a good deal. Until then it's probably best not to think about it.
I did look at Country Coach and in comparison, I liked the Monaco better. Every CC that I saw that had a dishwasher, it was hidden behind two cabinet doors which looked like an after thought. The CC does not have the automatic entry sealing door (no wind noise). All the CC that I looked at were 2007's, it could be that the 2008's changed some of their features.
Another deciding factor was that the Monaco dealers are near my house in California and in Tennessee. The dealer in California where I looked at the CC is now owned by my Monaco dealer. I have no idea where the service facility was for CC.
Mark
The downturn in the economy has seen several RV manufacturers go out of business...
-National
-Alpha Leisure
-Travel Supreme
and a few others that are hanging on by a thread. Thankfully, Monaco (including Beaver and Safari) seems to be hanging in there and still introducing new products.
This summer while traveling in Canada, fuel was $5.34 a gallon for regular unleaded. I was lucky that the 150 gallon fuel tank on the motorhome allowed me to enter Canada through Wisconsin and exit into Michigan without needing fuel driving all the way around Lake Superior. I paid $4.99 for diesel in Michigan.
Come on folks........buy that recreational vehicle, help the economy and make those special memories!
Mark
Had the high price inhibited them from going far, and conversely, has the recent return to around $2.50 a gallon caused them to journey more?
Or, as the cost of fuel is such a relatively small proportion of the overall cost of ownership, has it made no difference at all?
Obviously, fuel is very cheap now so you don't hear too much about 'that' cost and they are still moving along camping and having fun. As most people know, fuel is a small factor in the motorhome lifestyle. This summer, I had $650- $700 fill-ups but I enjoyed every mile of driving and camping. :shades: Once I'm parked, the Honda gets 25+ mpg's to go touring around. I get about 7 mpg's in the RV.
Mark
We have the Aqua Hot system in the coach and it kept everything nice and toasty!
Mark
M.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
There have to be locks in the Welland canal since you have to make up the height of Niagara Falls....
Are the rest in the St. Lawrence?
Answered some of my own question - there are 8 locks in the Welland Canal alone! I gave up counting after that...