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Chevrolet Malibu vs. Toyota Camry vs. Honda Accord
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Comments
Two trip odometers
A sophisticated OLM that shows 7K+ change intervals and percentage to change, not just a light.
Outside temperatures
Miles to Empty
Average MPG
Average speed.
Sometimes annoying messages for stuff like ice on the road.
Everything I could think of but a compass.
Did an 89 Aerostar have all of that? My cars of the late eighties/early nineties including Camrys certainly didn't.
Malibu Maxx: range 28-37 average 30.5 mpg.
Accord 6: range 18-31 average 23.9 mpg.
The Malibu is the only car I've owned that did better than the old (inflated) epa mileage charts.
Loren
I still the think the average buyer for this type of vehicle couldnt care less about refinement, willingness to rev, etc. as long as they can feel that solid torque and acceleration when needed, they're happy. There's still alot of people here brought up on the solid engines of the past (and present) and like the familiarity of em, the sound of them. I certainly prefer the growl of an LT1 or Boss 302 and even my 3.5 over some pesky buzzy little thing with one of those fart cans installed as a muffler. Sounds like a radio controlled airplane, what an annoyance that is.
Refinements or not, you put a buzz buggy against a 350 thats been done up right by some guy in his backyard and redlines at about 7500...there's no contest on what sounds and works better. Mazda got nowhere with the rotary. A supposed marvel and virtually rev limitless. Just never caught on.
My experience with many products that claim to be new and improved, high tech, revolutionary, etc. may only lead to disappointment. People like whats familiar and what has been proven to work, and easy and cheap to fix. GM engines are all that so why knock the tried and true? Let's all live together happily....just keep that buzzing sound down will ya!
And I certainly agree with your comment that 'high tech' or 'new and improved' is not necessarily good!
As for the number of GM cars seen on the streets of my home town, I would say they are mainly foreign cars, though SUV and trucks, and rental cars are more likely GM. But then again, this is California. People are pretty picky about the car performance here on the left coast. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, VW and others from abroad seem to have a pretty good grip on sales here. I do note more GM cars on the sales lots, so they are selling some cars other than the SUV and trucks now. Cadillac is still pretty popular, and you see some GM cars like the G6. Not sure how many are rentals though, as we get tourist our way.
Loren
well, not if you discount all the pickups and SUVs - at least down here in Texas - all kinds of sedans from T,H and N and an increasing number of Hyundais. Rarely a US brand, and a significant portion of them have rental co. stickers on them, or look 'fleet'. I think 'Detroit' effectively gave the car market to the Japanese starting in the 80s because of some really crappy products and an inability to build smaller engines - and may never be able to recover.
Don't look now, but I'm not sure that they aren't in the recovery phase. Vehicles like the Fusion (with early statistics looking very promising for reliability - very important) that are fun to drive and nice to look at, Ford may at least stay in the game and strengthen moderately rather than dropping out altogether like so many predicted not too long ago. If they'd do the same with their compacts and full-sizers Ford could make more than a meager comeback like they are attempting right now (Focus is older than Moses, and will continue to be for years - Europe is about to be on design number three, while we are getting a facelifted version 1.0 Focus next year - the power increase will help the Five Hundred/Montego greatly in the game). With more all-around good vehicles like the Fusion, Ford will do just fine.
For GM, the revised Imapala sure looks nice, with much-improved interiors and several engine choices. The Aura, the Lambda Crossovers (Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia, etc..) are all strong if not bar-raising vehicles. Reliability is still not necessarily a strong suit of GM vehicles according to several record-keepers like CR, but it doesn't seem to be in the basement with many vehicles like they once were, either(exceptions according to CR being the Midsize Pickup Twins Colorado/Canyon and the Cobalt Compact Car).
Chrysler...what an enigma. In the late 90s, it was absolutely pitiful. Some pitiful excuses for quality came from that company (transmission troubles anyone?) Then, along comes the Chrysler 300 sedan (Car and Driver COTY). Reliability inches upwards in some models (importantly in the minivan market which Chrysler DOMINATES in sales). Then they release some real cheapo-feeling cars... Caliber, Jeep Compass/Patriot, and the styling-riddle Sebring Sedan. I think Chrysler can't win because of shooting itself in the foot. Hopefully that will change.
In the end, I'm of the opinion that domestic vehicle manufacturers (i.e. the Big Three) will not be THE dominating force ever again, although I also believe there won't be a single dominating force(s) like the "3" to take their place. Carmakers have gotten good folks, really good.
The biggest impediment to GM not turning around their market share erosion is misperception that Japan is offering something better. Many people buying a new car judge the engine by a test drive. The 2005 numbers on this 3.9 DoD engine are 240 horsepower at 5,900 rpm and 245 pound-feet of torque at just 2,800 rpm, which are commendable. What really makes the engine satisfying is that 90 percent of that peak torque is available from 1,800 to 5,800 rpm, since torque is what you need in the daily duels of urban driving. The 265 HP 3.9 I test drove didn't have an instantaneous mileage readout but the 5.3 liter did. The 5.3 gave about 35 mpg criusing at 50-60 mph and gave 31 mpg at 70 mph. In the 2005 trucks, the all-aluminum V8 will be rated at an estimated 290 hp and 325 lb-ft of torque. The 2007 Impala I drove had 303 HP as well as Hwy mileage possible in the 30's. With leather and sunroof and lots of other options, sticker was 30,200 for the SS. Rebate and a little haggling bring that down to 27,300 USD, which is even with the Accord V6 with auto and leather after a little haggling. GM needs no Japanese 'program'.
Sure that wasn't "ten oldest engines in the world?" :P Just messin with ya.
You say $27,300 for an EX V6 Accord after you haggle and get rebates on the impala. How come you don't give Honda the same benefit in your post? I saw just today an internet quote of $23k and change for an Accord EX-V6 on the Accord prices paid forum. The Accord has factory incentives going on right now. You may not have known all of this, which is why I'm filling in your holes.
Unless you have a serious need for torque steer excitement, there is little need for the Impala V8; certainly not for over $27K = ouch!
Loren
the Toyota 2GR is easily the best engine available in this class - and is wonderful - great FE, extremely powerful, smooth and willing, it is very easy to get it up to 6000 rpm without even knowing it (or feeling it), and further, thanks to its advanced intelligent continuously variable valves on both intake and exhaust it does a pretty fair job providing that flat torque curve you are talking about. Comparable engines at this point the VW 3.6, the Nissan VQ, and that great Honda V6 - although only SOHC. Does the GM 3.6 or the Ford 3.5 come close, on the spec sheets yes - in terms of refinement - have a sneaking suspicion they are both short on those refinement issues that I value so highly. Would I buy a pushrod V6 specifically, not a chance, because look at those alternatives available - I submit to you that there never has been or will be a refined pleasant pushrod V6 or I could challenge you to name even just one? And BTW those gimmicky 'instanteous' FE readouts are about the most worthless info you can find - that old Aerostar I was talking about could show 100 mpg! The truck actually did about 15 and was, of course, slow as molasses with that fine pushrod V6.
Detroit pushrod V8s, OTH, I have no problem with and is representative of that 'Detroit' approach, attack the problem with displacement - been going on ever since they slapped a small block V8 in a Ford Falcon back in 1964 and called it a 'sports car'.
And those V8s have no business in FWD cars - too much weight, torque steer, and understeer. GM may have an alternative if they can properly build that Impala in Australia and still manage to put a trunk in the car. If GM (or the other two) are ever going to build a competitive (and pleasant) sedan I'm afraid its 'back to the future' with RWD and torquey V8s (ala the Chrysler 300/Charger), and then all they need to worry about is if the market for them still exists when gas hits $4 or $5/gallon. Or they could learn to build proper smaller engines, that indeed, don't have those precious pushrods, or DOD either - you wouldn't perchance remember Cadillac's flirtation with this back in the early 90s, lead to a recall (and forced warranty extensions) on every car so equipped.
IMO, don't believe there is any question about this today or for the last 20 years or so. I think the real question is whether those 'expensive' Japanese makes can justify those extra $ over a defineable period - something that, at least, to this point, they can. And you should also consider the financial efficacy and engineering acumen of the cos. involved - areas in which the Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans have it all over the US brands. As long as GM/Ford continue to lose money faster than they can print it or borrow it, they will have a helluva time developing anything innovative or competitive and will continue to sell what amounts to 20 year old+ cars. Maybe what GM 'needs' is to learn that 'Japanese program' called making money - done by developing products they can make money on instead of selling everything to the lowest bidder...
The LX is not leather and you can't just add it as an option. You have to bump up to 28,095 for leather and automatic trans. Take off 4% for internet price and you are at 26,901 for the Accord in the US. That is with the same amount of haggling as the Impala SS at 27,300. Looks like more haggling could be done on both prices. The difference here is $400 more for a monster engine that is conservatively rated at 27 mpg hwy -vs- a much lower 'real driving Torque' Honda. There would have to be $5000 in incentives on the Honda EX for $23,000. It may not have been a V6? It may be Canadian $?
LX V6 $25,895.00
EX V6 6-SPEED $28,095.00
EX V6 $28,095.00
EX V6 6-SPEED NAVI $30,095.00
EX V6 w/ NAVI $30,095.00
Loren
I can copy and paste it for you, if you like, sir.
There would have to be $5000 in incentives on the Honda EX for $23,000. It may not have been a V6?
It was an EX-V6.
First of all, invoice on the Accord is $24,820. Subtract $750 in incentive money and you are right at $24,070. Subtract 3% holdback, ($722) and you have $23,347. With these figures, a $24,000 or lower price shouldn't be hard to negotiate, especially when financing through Honda. Add to the fact that dealers want to move all the 2007 models they can so they get the most ultra-profitable 2008 models allotted to them as possible.
By the way, Destination is $595. Your prices reflect a $695 destination? (27,400 is MSRP for EXV6, destination si $595 = $27,995 Sticker). Small difference, but hey, if you could save $100 wouldn't you?
By the way, is the Impala included in this forum? It is a full-sized car, these are all midsizers. Seems like the Malibu is the competitor here sizewise.
Looks for 2009 model as being a turn-around. Not that Impalas in FWD do not sell. Have no idea why one would want a V8 in one. It was designed to have a V6 from day one.
Loren
-Loren
RWD sounds better, for a V8 powered car. Following Chrysler's lead on this one (300/Charger), I guess. I don't understand why though. The Impala is Chevy's best selling car, the way it is now (FWD V6).
I agree with you, if GM needs touse that wealth of experience they have in V8s it is better placed in a RWD chassis somehting they already have - then Australian Holden. Haven't been able to figure out why they haven't put the 3.6 (the best engine GM has right now with less than 8 cylinders) in the FWD Impala though - may be a question of keeping some old pushrod engine plants running to keep the UAW happy, as well as a lack of production capacity.
I got a Honda Accord, so I guess I won't need another car for a few hundred thousand miles
Loren
You make it sound like ALL Hondas and no other vehicles go to several hundred thousand miles. Both are completely false. I've had several go that distance, and never owned a Honda. Any car to go that distance needs good care and a good driver. Even so, it's a man made mechanical device, things will break.
How many cars have you owned Loren? And for how long?
Loren
P.S. Dad had a good Olds Cutlass Supreme '71 or was that '72. Pretty cool looking car and farily reliable. All his car overheated on vacations though. All sucked gas. But the Cutlass and Buick LeSabre were sharp looking. I got into the sad era though for GM cars.
Loren
Hey, 'bout the same as me then. But on the opposite side of each other. Funny how things go. All my vehicles have been North American. Reliable, trouble free and long lasting.
One exception, I do now own a 96 Escort which isnt really a Ford, it's a Mazda Protege. Tis my 1st foreign car!
I think all we're proving here is that any manufacturer has the potential to make exceptional vehicles and has a history of good and bad vehicles. In the end, I still dont believe there's alot of difference between a good GM model and a good Honda or Toyota model. Or has Honda been using some of that metal from Mars which I'm sure HAS to be better than earth's metals. Nobody can say that those 2 havent made crappy vehicles, they've had their share as well as anyone.
I know it's not part of this topic but just wanted to say...
Last year at this time when I was shopping, I came very close to buying a brand new 06 Sonata which after all was said and done came to about $25,000. I noticed the other day a few 06's for sale at about $15,000. That depreciation is the same as most North American cars. I have to be extra happy now that I didnt go for it.
Oh but wait, perhaps if I had, I could just say, sure I lost $10k in 1 year but hell, I'm drivin a foreign car, and it's GOT to better than anything made here....right? You may ask, then why didnt I go for the 03 Accord with 80,000Kms for $20k? Hmmm :confuse:
What's the problem here? You think CR is lying, so you assume the Japanese think JD is lying?
Not EVERYBODY drinks the kool-aid and goes ONLY by what magazines say.
Why Detroit hasn't done what the Japanese did to us years ago - copy designs and tweak them - is beyond me. I'd love to buy another GM someday.
Bought 3 vehicles in the past year and a half. A Honda, an Acura and a Nissan. Each time I gave Ford and GM a chance to earn my dollar and each time neither did. C'mon Detroit.
I have compared the "new and improved" GM cars. I drove an 06 Impala for two weeks, and the quality is not up to par with the 03 Honda Accord (a car three years older).
The new '08 Malibu will be a very good car
How can you say this, without even having seen one, much less driven one?
I will take the other side and ask people to find real proof that the all new American car is unreliable before concluding it so.
I would not say the GM cars are unreliable. Just not as high in quality or refined as a Honda is.
It can't be found except in biased opinions so far on here.
The difference between opinions is, my opinion is backed by many, and your opinion is backed by very few.
Wait, aren't you predicting something that isn't out yet (i.e. pot calling kettle black?)? If you aren't please clarify.
I read all of the auto rags out there and even CR. My decision to buy the Accord was based on my test drives of many different models including the Malibu, Sonata, Impala, Camry, Grand Prix, Mazda 6, Altima, and Accord. My opinion, the Accord was the best, the Malibu the worst driving. Granted, this was 05.
It all comes down to what the individual buyer wants and needs. This is a global economy and if anybody can show me a 100% American car, please do so. Where are profits for the "Foreigns" going? Some of it right back here in the United States. (Indiana is Honda's latest investment.) Some of that profit also comes right back to me as a share holder in one of the "foreigns".
Come on GM, the small block in a front drive Impala SS? Wake up. They have to go to Australia to get a rear drive platform (Pontiac G8).
Based on safety alone (a biggie for me) the Malibu crushes the 03 Accord (no pun intended). Then figure in fuel economy, features, warranty, VALUE. How can anyone say that 03 Accord for more money is a better deal?
C'mon, that's just silliness or blind loyalty.
Per Edmunds:
The Aura's 112.3-inch wheelbase is the same as that of the stretched Malibu Maxx, and it is 3.0 inches longer than that of the Camry and 4.4 inches longer than that of the Accord sedan. The Aura measures 191.0 inches overall, some 1.8 inches shorter than the Camry and a tenth of an inch behind the Accord.
Throw tautly tailored sheet metal over those proportions and tack on GM's best decorative detail (the Saturn badge in the chrome grille bar is gorgeous), and this is a car that looks more expensive than its $23,945 base price. It even looks more expensive than its $26,919 as-tested price.
Internal fortitude
As good as the Aura XR looks, the best part is the 24-valve DOHC 3.6-liter V6 under the hood. This all-aluminum V6 is thoroughly modern, and it produces 252 horsepower at 6,400 rpm and 251 pound-feet of peak torque at 3,200 rpm.
With the Accord's 3.0-liter V6 rated at 253 hp and the Camry's 3.5-liter V6 delivering 268 hp, the Aura V6's output might seem modest. But the Accord V6 only musters 232 lb-ft of peak torque and needs to rip to 5,000 rpm to do it, while the Camry's V6 also needs to spin hard to deliver 248 lb-ft at 4,700 rpm.
In comparison, the Aura XE's V6 makes its power in the GM fashion, emphasizing a broad power band at quieter, friendlier engine speeds than its Japanese-branded competitors. And the GM V6 is smooth, quiet and efficient, just like its competition from Toyota and Honda. Oh yeah, it also runs on affordable regular-grade gasoline.
Six speeds, no waiting
A six-speed automatic transaxle enhances the engine's sweetness. Codeveloped with Ford, the GM six-speed delivers an unobtrusive shift schedule, crisp gearchanges and quick reactions to throttle input.
Try shopping different dealers, but don't get your hopes TOO high. Honda has the best brand resale value in the N.A. market.