Toyota Avalon Limited vs Lexus ES 350
gohawaiian
Member Posts: 84
in Toyota
I thought it might be interesting for owners & prospective buyers of the Toyota Avalon Limited and Lexus ES 350 to compare these two models. I recently comparison-shopped those 2 cars and wound up trading in my 97 ES 300 for an Avalon Limited. My reasons are set out below. Perhaps others would like to offer their own views and make the case for either car!
Before buying an Avalon Limited, I looked at and ruled out both the 2006 ES 330 and the 2007 ES 350 for different reasons. The 06 330 has a much smaller, less fuel efficient 6 cyl. engine than the Av, while the 07 350 has essentially the same engine as the Av. Both Lexus models (330 & 350) are smaller than the Av, inside and out. The Av compares in size to the LS 430, the Lexus flagship. And in fact, some car magazine reviews have described the Av Ltd. as a "poor man's LS 430", and a car that offers 85% of what the LS 430 offers. (If you can overlook the absence, on the Av, of the Lexus badge and the V8 engine of the LS 430, you can argue that the Av seriously rivals the $60,000 LS 430 for a whopping 45% less, approximately, in MSRP). As for the comparison of the Av Ltd. to the ES 350, you'd have to order the ES 350 with a $2500 "Premium Plus" package (boosting its total MSRP over $36,300) to get that car with heated/ventilated leather seats, driver's seat cushion extender, and rain-sensing wipers, all of which are standard on the Av. Ltd. Even then, your ES 350 still wouldn't have the power rear sunshade, wood-trim steering wheel, HID headlights, and a 12 speaker premium sound system that are all standard equip. on the Av Ltd. At Lexus, those items are either additional cost options or are only available as part of a much more expensive option package on the ES 350. In fairness to the ES 350, it does come standard with electronic stability control (optional on the Av); a power tilt/telescope steering column (these are manually adjustable on the Av); and knee airbags for driver and front seat passenger (only a driver knee airbag on the Av.) You will likely find that Toyota dealers will be willing to offer you a MUCH more substantial discount on the Av Ltd. than you will get on the ES 350. In May 2006, I was offered 11% off list on a 2006 Av Ltd. and 19% off list on a brand new 2005 Av Ltd. Try asking for discounts like that at a Lexus dealer! (In fact, my local Lexus dealer offered me, as a return customer, only 5% off a 2006 ES 330, a model which they needed to unload quickly to make room for the new ES 350 models arriving - (so much for "customer loyalty & appreciation" discounts - that discount was almost insulting!) With discounts over 10% at Toyota, one could add on the electronic stability control and laser cruise control options (together they add about $1250 to the list) and still come out thousands below a comparably equipped ES 350. That's my take on the value proposition represented by the Avalon Limited - and, more importantly, I love the car, too! Given all these facts, what makes the ES 350 seem like a preferred choice/better buy in the view of its owners & admirers?
Before buying an Avalon Limited, I looked at and ruled out both the 2006 ES 330 and the 2007 ES 350 for different reasons. The 06 330 has a much smaller, less fuel efficient 6 cyl. engine than the Av, while the 07 350 has essentially the same engine as the Av. Both Lexus models (330 & 350) are smaller than the Av, inside and out. The Av compares in size to the LS 430, the Lexus flagship. And in fact, some car magazine reviews have described the Av Ltd. as a "poor man's LS 430", and a car that offers 85% of what the LS 430 offers. (If you can overlook the absence, on the Av, of the Lexus badge and the V8 engine of the LS 430, you can argue that the Av seriously rivals the $60,000 LS 430 for a whopping 45% less, approximately, in MSRP). As for the comparison of the Av Ltd. to the ES 350, you'd have to order the ES 350 with a $2500 "Premium Plus" package (boosting its total MSRP over $36,300) to get that car with heated/ventilated leather seats, driver's seat cushion extender, and rain-sensing wipers, all of which are standard on the Av. Ltd. Even then, your ES 350 still wouldn't have the power rear sunshade, wood-trim steering wheel, HID headlights, and a 12 speaker premium sound system that are all standard equip. on the Av Ltd. At Lexus, those items are either additional cost options or are only available as part of a much more expensive option package on the ES 350. In fairness to the ES 350, it does come standard with electronic stability control (optional on the Av); a power tilt/telescope steering column (these are manually adjustable on the Av); and knee airbags for driver and front seat passenger (only a driver knee airbag on the Av.) You will likely find that Toyota dealers will be willing to offer you a MUCH more substantial discount on the Av Ltd. than you will get on the ES 350. In May 2006, I was offered 11% off list on a 2006 Av Ltd. and 19% off list on a brand new 2005 Av Ltd. Try asking for discounts like that at a Lexus dealer! (In fact, my local Lexus dealer offered me, as a return customer, only 5% off a 2006 ES 330, a model which they needed to unload quickly to make room for the new ES 350 models arriving - (so much for "customer loyalty & appreciation" discounts - that discount was almost insulting!) With discounts over 10% at Toyota, one could add on the electronic stability control and laser cruise control options (together they add about $1250 to the list) and still come out thousands below a comparably equipped ES 350. That's my take on the value proposition represented by the Avalon Limited - and, more importantly, I love the car, too! Given all these facts, what makes the ES 350 seem like a preferred choice/better buy in the view of its owners & admirers?
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The 350 is made completely in Japan so (IMO) is better put together and has more quality control.
The 350 has a longer warranty, even though one probably won't use it that much.
The Avalon's handling in comparison to the 350 is pretty sloppy...I feel sometimes like I'm going to be seasick.
The 350 has a backup camera if you have Nav; lots of complaints about the Avalon not having one.
The 350 does not have the transmission shifting problems everyone has complained about on the Avalon, at least not yet on mine.
The 350 has Bluetooth - the 05 Avalon does not. Not sure about the 06 model.
The 350 has IPOD connectivity - the Avalon does not.
Yes, the Avalon is less expensive so if it fits your checkbook, I would say buy it. If you can afford the Lexus and it fills the bill and you can afford it, buy that one.
I'm sure there are a few other points that I'm missing, but at first blush, that's my 2 cents worth. I like both cars, the Avalon IS a good buy, I just prefer the 350.
because the Avalon is a little too large for
my tastes. I don't remember the length of
the Avalon, but if it's over 191 inches, I'm
going to have difficulty fitting it in my
garage. Also, I've decided when my lease is
up on my Maxima, I'd really like to upgrade
to one of the premium manufacturers such as
Lexus, Acura or Infiniti (Unless Nissan
manages to suck me back in with the 2007
Maxima and very well could, although this
car supposedly is gaining several inches in
length, also, and could be a problem for me)
because of the longer warranty offered by
these manufactures.
It's kind of funny because when Lexus came out
with the 2007 IS, I loved it, but felt it was
too small. Until now, I would have never
considered a car such as the ES series before
the 2007's came out. It's a whole different
story now. The size of the ES350 is just
about perfect. At this point the ES and the
Acura TL are the top two on my wish list, and
being that I enjoy sporty cars, you'd think
the Acura would be my choice hands down
(also, size-wise the Acura is perfect!)
But the 2007 ES is just so compelling for me
right now, so I guess it's going to come down
to who's going to give me the best deal.
Ooh, I can't wait!!!
There isn't much difference in major options. It's just a different feeling between the two. For me, the ES was the one. The more intimate size, the little niceties like the electronic tilting wheel on the memory, the greater isolation and sense of quiet, all added up to my new car. I ordered the ES w/ premium plus + nav last week.
Just curious. I don't remember the backup camera being offered on the Av Ltd. Is this an aftermarket unit you have installed post delivery? How about the bluetooth?
I was recently able to negotiate about the same discounts on the ES as on the Av Ltd. Of course in FL, Toyota dealers have to work around the onerous SET fees. So, the difference was around $3500, about 8% more for the ES. I paid it willingly, for the ES is the one that felt right for me...and I find it too frustrating finding aftermarket installers to provide what I wanted in the first place. To each his own path. They are both fine vehicles.
I paid less than $40K for my ES w/Premium+ (including the leather), Nav, HID/AFS, and other options. If I look at the "value" of this to other cars many would consider comparable entry luxury cars, it is a good value. How about a MB C350? Similarly equipped, its MSRP is $46K, TMV of $41.5. I vastly prefer the ES. An Audi A4 3.2? MSRP $42.2, TMV $40.3 and I prefer the ES. The A6 is way overpriced - and I still prefer the ES. How about the (vastly inferior, IMHO) Jaguar X-Type. MSRP $41K, as they try to get rid of them for TMV $35.8. I consider the ES a much better value, since the Jag isn't satisfying and the resale is awful. Compare the Cadillac CTS 3.6L, and the prices are similar but the car is not up to the ES's standard. An Infiniti M35 w/ Journey Pkg +Nav is MSRP $46.3, TMV $44.7. I preferred the ES. Many people like the similarly spec'd BMW 330i for MSRP $44.3, TMV $42.3. To me it is not comfortable and the electronics are old. There is no value to me in accepting that.
I'm sure your list of what is of value is different from mine, and many others. That doesn't make your list right and mine wrong. I'm glad you like the Avalon. It's a very good car. But to me there is no value in extra space I don't use. There is value in little pampering things, and the feel of quietness and isolation. Yes, if what I enjoy is a feeling, then there is value in feeling! (BMW fans like the steering feel, so they place value in that.)
Your post restricts "value" to some very small list of things. I think you are being very narrow minded there. And, having looked at so many other vehicles and carefully weighed the value of the features of those cars to me before selecting the ES350, I do consider myself a fairly "savvy" buyer!
Sorry about the length of the reply. It seemed called for.
of your opinions on the pros and cons of the
various cars named is right on. I also have
lots of pros and cons of the various cars that
I'm looking at for my next car when my lease
is up. Although Lexus vehicles in general do
tend to get pretty pricey when you start
adding in option packages, I think the 2007
ES has really become a great value.
I now see the 2007 ES as being a car that
can run anywhere from, what, 33k up to 40k
with either the basic stadard options, which
aren't too shabby, or the optioned-out Ultra
Lux option. You're also getting a longer
warranty, not to mention A+ treatment from
a Lexus dealership. Yes, some of the other
cars I'm interested in cost somewhat less
and maybe have just as many options or more
options than the ES (Acura TL comes to mind)
But here in Tampa, I haven't heard very many
positive things about the only dealership
in Tampa for an Acura. That's weighing
heavily with me.
So, yes, "Value" is highly subjective!
Peace. If you have or get the new Avalon, I hope you are as happy with it as I have been with my '97 Av. In 148K miles, I haven't even replaced the brake pads!
I think the ES with UL and additional options ranges up to about $44K, but a good Premium+ w/ nav, HID/AFS and other options lists <$41K.
If you are serious about the ES and you are in the Tampa area, I would suggest that you talk to Lexus of Sarasota. I am also in the Tampa area and although I had pleasant experiences with both Clearwater and Tampa dealers, I ended up buying at Sarasota. I'm so happy, I just heard my car is in and I will pick it up Saturday! (Only 3 weeks wait.)
I'll be driving...anywhere...for this holiday weekend!
heard some very positive things reading the
Lexus boards on Edmunds with regard to Lexus
of Sarasota, particularly with regard to
negotiating a fair deal. I will definitely
keep Lexus of Sarasota open as an option if
I decide to spring for the ES. The RX350
is also a vehicle of interest for me. It
seems that Lexus is offering some pretty
decent deals on the RX. So this will give
me some extra things to consider. Thanks!
As I understand both the Avalon and the ES 350 use the same 3.5 V6 however the Avalon recommends regular fuel while the ES 350 recommends premium. The horsepower and torque are very close. Is the compression ratio higher in the ES 350 or is the recommendation to use premium just for better performance. I have not driven the ES yet but I do own the 05 Avalon and the performance is great with regular (87 octane) fuel. I am considering moving into the ES sometime but I will have to go to another city nearby because we don't have a Lexus dealer here. I hope to get to drive one later this summer.
Take care!
Honestly, I haven't got a clue. The performance of both have been great...my gas mileage is approaching 26 mpg in city/highway driving and I'm consistenly at-the-speed-limit on highway driving due to too many greeting cards from the highway patrol. All I know is the car zooms
When you do get to drive one, hopefully you'll be pleased -I definitely am!
Do you use regular or premium grade fuel?? What does your owners manual recommend for the ES 350?
Gladiator99
Another aspect that you have to take into consideration is that people buy Lex. over T. b/c of the Name. It is all about status! One has to have $$$ to afford a Lex. Now, if he or she has money then big discount or not would not be an issue. Right? Anyway, i am keeping your comp. of the 2 vehicles for future ref.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
want the "L" on their hood.If you look at the back of a es350 and the back of a Avalon they are similiar looking.
To post 31,I think the Lexus is a bit quicker than the Avalon,check the specs.
I really was going to buy the 2006 Avalon, but once I the ES350 was introduced, I totally had a chance of heart. I pretty much like everything about ES350... except the price, which is about 5-7K more than the Avalon. As far as the Avalon goes.... I still see it on the road and think it would be my second choice.
Either choice can be a good one if it is right for you. But please, don't make stuff up!
I think there is improvement on the front end of the Avalon. I think the ES350 has more of a strong and sporty front end.
looks of the ES better than the Avalon.
I mean, let's face it. These are two very
compelling cars that have some great features
on them. Do I think the Avalon is a nice car
for what it offers? Yes. Do I like the
styling? Not particularly. This may sound
trite to some people, but you've also got to
like the exterior and interior style of the
car that you're going to drive for anywhere
from three to five, or maybe even longer in
the years to come.
This may also explain why some people prefer
the Lexus over the Avalon, not because it's
a Lexus. (Sure, it doesn't help that you get
the A-1 treatment from Lexus either).
I believe in the end, it comes down to which
body style you prefer. I have a feeling
this thread is gonna go back and forth and
back and forth. The people that prefer the
Avalon are not going to change their mind and
the people that prefer the Lexus are not
going to change their mind either.
Just my two cents!
in the Avalon's rating of 31 hwy mpg and the ES350's 30,is it gearing ? It will be interesting to see if the 07 Avalon
has the 6 speed trans,then we will have a better comparison.
Although it hasn't been mentioned on this thread but I believe there is a gender gap between these two cars. For women, the ES350 is the right size, it comes in brighter colors and it has many of the creature comforts that make driving it a pleasure and a status symbol. I am sure that is probably part of Toyota's marketing strategy as they send a lot of promotional materials to my wife and her female friends.
Also, the ES350 conveys an aura of youthfulness where the Avalon rightly or wrongly suggests grandpa's wheels. The stats will bear out on this as the average age of an Avalon owner is 62. I don't know what it is for the ES350 but I am willing to bet it is younger than that.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve