Hybrid Prius that gets over 100 Miles per Gallon

timinalaskatiminalaska Member Posts: 6
edited March 2014 in Toyota
There are a couple companies that are actually making modifications to the Prius so it gets over 100 mpg for the average commuter or errand runner.

The Prius+ drives just like a normal hybrid, except that you have the optional ability to plug it in at night at your own house. You don't have to plug it in, but if you want to, you can get up to a 50 mile boost without EVER having to use the gasoline engine.

If you just run around the city doing errands at speeds up to 34 miles per hour, you could potentially get unlimited gas mileages. It costs 60 to 90 cents to charge overnight (much less than a gallon of fuel) and as the electricity grids become cleaner (ie, windpower, water, and solar verus coal) our Prius' become extremely more effective against pollution and global warming. At the same time, we minimize our support for Middle Eastern oil companies with 'petro' dollars that we spend at the pump. As a whole, our country becomes not only cleaner, but safer too.

I and many other customers would love for Toyota to make available now a plug in optional Hybrid Prius (PHEV), so please call Toyota and ask them to start making them. They don't think there will be a demand due to the failure with plug in electric cars in the past, but with gas at over $3.00 a gallon, I sure would love to average over 100 per gallon. And then when the battery runs out, the Prius keeps running as a normal hybrid.

The technologies exist, they are already on the road (just not mass produced -- see www.calcars.org), Toyota and other companies just need to know that us consumers will actually buy them. So please call Toyota at 800-331-4331. Tell them that for a few more thousand more, we'd like to plug in our hybrids at night to get over 100 miles per gallon.

Toyota really needs to do a complete customer survey to really gauge the demand for this new type of vehicle that not many people know about.

Thanks!

Tim
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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Tell them that for a few more thousand more, we'd like to plug in our hybrids at night to get over 100 miles per gallon

    I would like to have a car I could plug in over night and use to run my errands. The modified Prius you are referring to is about a $12,000 add-on to an already over priced car. Even if gas was $5 per gallon you would never make up the difference you paid for the additional batteries. Then you add all that weight to a car that is marginal handling and you could have some serious problems. I am not saying that Toyota will not come up with a PHEV, it is highly unlikely until a better battery is invented. Good luck, I don't think Toyota pays any attention to us little people.
  • timinalaskatiminalaska Member Posts: 6
    Yes, you are exactly right. It's about $12,000 more for the add-on, but that's because the batteries, as you said, are still very expensive and only a few Prius' are currently being modifed.

    However, the reason it's so great if Toyota took this on is because the extra cost might only be $3,000 to $4,000 (instead of $12,000) due to Toyota being able to manufacture PHEVs in economies of scale.

    The initial battery technology has already came a long way since the first Prius was introduced a few years go. The batteries have also became less expensive. What we need is for Toyota to get on this and research and produce PHEVs so they actually are affordable. This also helps decrease our dependence on foreign oil.

    I believe there is enough demand that not only it will be profitable for Toyota, but also will cause the battery technology to become much more affordable. Batteries are becoming lighter as they get more advanced. The batteries are still heavy, and to the best of my knowledge, the extra gain in weight currently causes a decrease of about 5 mpg. This figure might actually be less now, as the companies are putting a lot of research bringing this figure down as much as possible. But the lower mpg is compensated by being able to plug in your Prius overnight and get 100 mpg if you're commuting to work or doing errands.

    As has been said, a couple companies have been able to modify the Prius into an optional plug in hybrid...imagine what Toyota can do with their engineers and their financial standing. I'm sure they could do so much more and make this technology much less expensive.

    Thanks!

    Tim

    p.s. It's us little people that buy the Prius' though, and Toyota will listen to us if they know more and more people would want to buy a PHEV =)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    The initial battery technology has already came a long way since the first Prius was introduced a few years go.

    I don't think it has. They are still using the same NiMH battery technology developed by GM for the EV-1 in 1997. The only reason I can see for the lighter batteries is less capacity. There may have been some subtle advances. Toyota also has to pay royalties for using the NiMH battery technology. I have not seen any credible evidence that the price of batteries for the hybrids have come down at all since their introduction. Hybrid car prices have only gone up, up, up.

    CalCars is using Li-ion batteries for their plug-in hybrid modifications. They are very expensive and have some serious problems to overcome concerning heat if over charged.

    Don't get me wrong I like the whole concept of an electric vehicle. I was sad that CARB pulled the carpet out from under the automaker's. I believe they would have solved most of the issues by now. I'm not sold on current hybrids, but for those that like them, it is good.
  • icediabloicediablo Member Posts: 2
    I am going to buy one soon> 100 miles per gallon ? How long is the batteries warranty & what would the total cost be to be replaced? This needs to be calculated in hybrid v gas or diesel
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    That is a good question. If you live in CA they may have something to say about the warranty. Because it is an add-on to an existing car it will void your regular warranty. I would imagine it is less than 1 year warranty by the vendor. If the Li-ion conversion is $12k. That is mostly for the batteries. If the system allows the batteries to charge fully and discharge fully, the lifespan will not be very long. That is how Toyota protects the batteries in their hybrids. They only use about 60% of the capacity in the middle of the range. Never over charging or total discharging.
  • icediabloicediablo Member Posts: 2
    Thx gagrice, Two more things you may know,what would it take for me to add the plugin, can i jumper asis a 2500 or 5000 watt inverter to power a small home ? I did read somewhere someone did this ? ps what in your opinion is the best vehicle to own hybrid.. straight gas or diesel & what model? Thx again from bama ROLL TIDE!
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I am assuming you want to use the batteries in the Hybrid to power your home in an emergency. I know that is one of the things I thought of when I bought the GMC Hybrid PU truck. It has four 20 amp 120 volt outlets. I have only used it to run a saw out in the field. I would be real cautious about adding an invertor to a hybrid car. Maybe a small one for laptops and cameras.

    If I was in need of a commuter car I would consider the Civic hybrid. The Prius is a good commuter also. I just cannot get past the looks. The Prius has lots of room when you fold the back seats. The Camry Hybrid is very popular also. I just do not like that low slung look that so many cars are copying. It hinders visibility that is important to me. Good luck with your search.
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Member Posts: 1,015
    Always keeping in mind the "stock" Prius battery only has a few amp-hrs of capacity, so I doubt you could use it for much. It only carries the car a few km on its' own. The primary design goal of the battery was to store the recovered regenerative brake energy (about 20% of the mileage gain) and to give a torque boost to the gasoline engine under acceleration. The gas engine is run in a different mode than usually used, and this gives it higher efficiency (another 10-15% mileage gain) but in this mode it develops a lot less power than the "normal" cycle engines).

    The aftermarket guys add a much larger battery (something I have often wondered about). The NiMh battery was never developed by GM! It's a design done by a separate company (who have been trying to get the car manufacturerers to listen for a few years now). The NiMh battery has been improving rapidly. Just look at the capacity increase of AA batteries over the last two years. Almost doubled!

    As for adding an inverter, not a good idea. Most aftermarket inverters run on 12VDC. The Prius 12V battery is tiny and you'd run the risk of discharging it rapidly - and damaging it (because it's a lead acid battery it can be damaged if discharged too much).

    As for heat under charge, all battery technologies heat up, but both the LiI (lithium ion) and NiMh (nickle metal hydride) seem to suffer from this a little more. An easy solution is to use coolant passed though small pipes between the battery cells. There are up to 400 cells in the Prius (500 V battery), though I suspect it's closer to 333. Lots of places for improvement. There isn't actually a lot of heat energy, so a simple free air radiator would suffice with a charger that throttles back when the temp gets too high.

    Oh, and there are rumours that Toyota will add "plugin" capability to the Prius in 2008. We shall see. ;)
  • timinalaskatiminalaska Member Posts: 6
    Oh yeah, I forgot one thing. There is a new movie out which is going to major metropilitan areas in July and August. It's called "Who Killed the Electric Car?" (www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com).

    I just saw this at the opening in Los Angeles last week. It's very interesting, and it also discusses to an extent the improvement over battery technology over the last few years, and also how the Automakers have not used the best battery technology available to them.

    The movie's been distributed by Sony Classics, and it's well worth seeing.

    Thanks! Tim
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    The NiMh battery was never developed by GM!

    Here is a brief bit of history concerning the NiMH battery that was developed by a GM company for the EV-1.

    Detroit, October 10 -- Texaco (NYSE:TX) and General Motors (NYSE:GM) today announced Texaco's intent to acquire GM's share of a joint venture that has developed an advanced battery technology for the automotive market.

    Under the terms of the memorandum of understanding, Texaco will acquire GM's 60 percent share of an existing joint venture with Energy Conversion Devices – ECD – (NASDAQ:ENER), a firm in which Texaco already holds a 20 percent interest. GM and Ovonic Battery Company, a subsidiary of ECD, formed the joint venture, GM Ovonic, in 1994 to manufacture and commercialize high-efficiency, nickel metal hydride (NiMH) automobile batteries. The joint venture, which will be re-named Texaco Ovonic, plans to fully commercialize and expand its applications to a broad range of energy markets.

    "ECD and Ovonic developed breakthrough advanced NiMH battery technology and General Motors has brought it to the production stage


    http://www.cobasys.com/news/PressReleases/20001010.htm

    OK, now onto the heart of the matter about Cobasys' long history of aggressively defending its comprehesive NiMH patent portfolio, which gives it exclusive control over worldwide NiMH battery production.

    I have not actually read the legal judgement against Panasonic in favor of Cobasys by the international court of arbitration because that decision was sealed and supposed to remain confidential by prior agreement of the parties, as you probably know. However numerous details of that judgement/settlement have emerged in the press, including some revealed by Cobasys itself. What we know is that the court levied a $30 million fine against Panasonic and Toyota which they had to pay to Cobasys for violation of Cobasys' NiMH patents and back-payment of royalties owed to Cobasys.


    NiMH History, why no PHEV
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Member Posts: 1,015
    Ah, I see you were confused by the "corporate speak" of GM. The battery was developed by Texaco Ovonics (among others), and GM is a "partner", not a working partner, a small percentage money provider (and probably has a deal to use the technology). Texaco Ovonics has successfully defended their patent, which will historically back up their claim to be the inventor (even if history proves they weren't). Even so, GM has shown little interest in use of the technology in electric cars. Their use appears to be for the purpose of advertising and improving their "fleet fuel use".

    I stand by my statement - "The NiMh battery was never developed by GM!"
    Partially funded, perhaps, but that's it.

    This brings up an interesting point - I'm not sure there is another example of such a quick adoption of a "new invention". The development hatched the battery in 1999 and look how pervasive use of the NiMH technology has become in six short years!
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I think you missed this part. GM was the owner of Ovonics when they invented the NiMH battery. Texaco owned 20% at the time. GM sold their controlling interest in Cobasys (Ovonics) to raise maoney.

    Under the terms of the memorandum of understanding, Texaco will acquire GM's 60 percent share

    The bottom line is the US taxpayer through Clinton's giveaway program PNGV was involved in the development of the NiMH battery.

    PS
    Texaco Cobasys (Ovonics) sued Toyota and Panasonic after GM sold their 60% to Texaco.
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Member Posts: 1,015
    A correction of my previous post.
    I've got to remember to RTFM! The Prius battery consists of 28 modules of 6 cells each. That's 168 cells. Peak voltage will be 252 V and "average" voltage will be around 210 V. Minimum voltage would be 201.6 V, and if you measured the battery voltage and found it lower you might have some shorted or otherwise dead cells. You can estimate how many dead cells there are by dividing the difference by 1.2 V (the minimum voltage you should see across a nickle metal-hydride cell). This would be difficult unless you actually separate the 7.2 Volt modules though, as the voltage can vary depending on state of charge -of each cell-, so the battery voltage can vary more than you would think it would caused by dead cells.

    Bottom line of this is -if- you can buy the 7.2 V modules the battery is made of, you can "repair" a battery pack. Once it's over about 7 years of operation, this might not be a good way to go as all the cells will be getting old. Nice to know though in case there are cell failures early. As Toyota absorbs these per the warrenty, I guess they made it easy to repair.
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Member Posts: 1,015
    I yield to your superiour knowledge. I still don't think -GM- "invented" it, though obviously they helped (in a majority way) fund the development.

    I guess Texaco Ovonics is the company they interviewed (with a plant visit as well) on Motorweek last year. I think the head guy they talked to was the actual inventor. They are also into using the Nickle hydride matrix to store hydrogen at "low" pressure (100 psi instead of several thousand psi) to build "practical" hydrogen storage tanks for hydrogen powered vehicles.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I read something about Ovonics/Cobasys being involved in hydrogen storage. My only emphasis is that many folks think that everything good in automotive comes from Japan. Many thought that Toyota invented the NiMH until they got sued and lost. Toyota is in court over the HSD system as well. GM was screwed by CARB on the electric vehicle. The mandate should not have been made then pulled. All of the Big 3 built hybrids in the early 1990s. None came to market as they were too costly and they thought they would not sell. Toyota called that one right. Are they making any money at it? Who knows?

    I personally would rather see a simple electric vehicle for running errands with a 50 mile range. Much easier to build and maintain. Would satisfy a lot of people's needs. As long as modifying a Prius is the only option for PHEV, I don't see that as practical. There is just too many things that can go wrong and not be covered by a warranty.
  • timinalaskatiminalaska Member Posts: 6
    Regarding the last post, I'm not sure why you say that 'GM' was screwed by CARB on the electric vehicle. GM was very aggressive in getting CARB to remove the mandate. GM and other auto manufacturers did not want the mandate, and were actually successful in changing the mandate to only force the auto industry to produce electric cars 'per' consumer demand versus a specific number. The auto industry makes money on auto parts and repair.

    The electric vehicle is very clean, never needs oil changes, and has many less moving parts. When the EV1 was around, it needed very little maintenance. The auto industry relies on cars needing parts, oil changes, etc, especially dealerships. I forget what the exact percentage is, but dearlerships make a large portion of revenue from their repair shops. The EV1 was very successful and had a range of about 80 miles, and 'could have' been marketed succesfully. GM and other auto makers (and oil companies) did not want electric cars around.

    When GM1 ended the leases to the EV1, rather than simply selling the cars to the leasees, they forced leasees to return the cars against their will. The cars then got crushed and went into the shredder. Why not just sell the EV1s that have already been driven. Toyota finally allowed some customers to keep the RAV4 EV after consumer protest against Toyota also forcing customers to return the vehicles and then crushing them.

    GM and other auto makers did not want anything to do with electric vehicles even when there was customer demand for them. There is more information about this at www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com and the movie is being shown throughout hundreds of theatres across the nation over July and August.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    OK, I pretty much agree with your analysis. I think we the public got screwed and GM indirectly got screwed by CARB. They could have stayed the course on demanding 10% of the cars to be ZEV. Instead the little minds at CARB went for the hybrid carrot. Hybrids may be OK but as you put it so well, they will be money makers in parts for the automakers. GM lost the lead in ZEV cars that it held for a very short time. I don't think they wanted any responsibility for replacement parts on the EV-1. It was easier to scrap than carry parts for them. Toyota is still on the hook for warranty on the last of the RAV4 EVs sold in 2003. I will have to rent that movie when it comes out on DVD.
  • toyoinfotoyoinfo Member Posts: 1
    Interesting article on a "potential" battery future for Hybrids...

    The great light hope for hybrid vehicles
    Lithium ion could be the wonder battery that enables automakers to make big profits on hybrids

    Richard Truett | | Automotive News / June 19, 2006 - 6:00 am

    Batteries may be the key to the future of gasoline-electric hybrids.

    If hybrids are ever going to earn automakers a profit, the cost of the batteries must decrease while the life of the battery pack increases. The number of battery suppliers also must expand so that batteries are just another commodity, like windshield wipers and headlights.

    Lithium ion -- the same type of powerful, compact battery in your cell phone and digital camera -- could be the wonder battery that delivers all that and more.

    Virtually all of today's hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries. Nickel metal has proved to be reliable, but the battery packs are heavy, and the materials inside are expensive compared with those in lithium-ion packs.

    Also, most experts think that hybrid cars, such as the Toyota Prius and Ford Escape Hybrid, will need a replacement battery pack after eight years or 100,000 miles.

    If so, that could hurt the resale value of used hybrids because it would present subsequent owners with a battery replacement bill of between $3,000 and $5,000.

    Manufacturers in Japan, Europe and the United States are working to replace nickel-metal hydride batteries with lithium ion. The switch could begin in the United States as early as 2008.

    Earlier this month, Nissan Motor Co. launched the Atlas 20 medium-duty truck in Japan with lithium-ion batteries.

    Officials at Ford Motor Co., Toyota Motor Corp. and Johnson Controls Inc. say lithium-ion batteries will begin replacing nickel-metal hydride batteries in high volume around 2010. Johnson Controls has a joint venture with French battery maker Saft Groupe SA.

    "There's less weight, greater power density and, eventually, lower cost" with lithium ion, says Tom Watson, Ford's manager of hybrid propulsion systems. "We think that in the long term when you look at the cost-efficiency curve, lithium ion has much better potential than nickel metal. The benefits that it provides are just too overwhelmingly positive to pass up."


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lithium-ion batteries

    ADVANTAGES

    Lighter than nickel-metal batteries, improving performance and fuel economy

    Enables plug-in hybrids

    Production costs should fall over time

    CHALLENGES

    Sensitive to temperature

    Fragile

    Can be slow to recharge

    Manufacturing and shipping issues

    Existing nickel-metal batteries could improve
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Member Posts: 1,015
    One more challenge - Lithium-ion batteries don't like to receive or deliver high currents. This is the "show stopper" they are working to fix. Regenerative braking and accelleration assist require high currents into and out of the battery.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Also, most experts think that hybrid cars, such as the Toyota Prius and Ford Escape Hybrid, will need a replacement battery pack after eight years or 100,000 miles.

    Those so-called experts aren't all that smart or observant... since there are quite a few owners well in excess of 100,000 miles without any need for battery-pack replacement. It doesn't make sense either, since the warranty in some states is for 10 years / 150,000 miles.

    The latest update from Jesse (a friend of mine with a Classic Prius) is having surpassed 243,000 miles with the original still.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Jesse (a friend of mine with a Classic Prius) is having surpassed 243,000 miles with the original still.

    That is pretty darn good. Longer than I would have bet on them.
  • eaaeaa Member Posts: 32
    NiMH have been run to over 300,000 miles. The new lithium should last as long.

    The new Tesla pure electric EV that was just released July 20,2006 uses lithium and they say 100,000 miles is expected.

    These are not your old lead acid 100 year old technology !
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    The Tesla car is very interesting but it should be pointed out that the battery pack consists of thousands of off-the-shelf lithium-ion batteries used for portable electronic devices and weighs about 1000 pounds.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Good point. I think some thought this car was a break through on battery technology. No one has a large size Li-ion battery that is safe to use where any heat is involved. From the price of the car it looks like battery pricing is still very high.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    I thank you for starting the posts on this topic. The cost of fossil fuels in money and pollution has led to many startups for new automotive powerplants. Tesla is an example: it was funded by Silicon Valley venture capital. There are other ventures aimed at big lithium-ion batteries which can get around their operating tempurature limitations. Ultimately one wants large capacitors instead of batteries. There is big money at work on this. For example, a joint venture of Dupont in the USA and Teijin in Japan for large capacitors. And there's the important and promising research on capacitors at academic institutions such as MIT.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    When Jim Press announced that Toyota was working on plug-in hybrids it was treated as something new. Actually in 2005 the Toyota Dream House (mine too) that was exhibited for 6 months at that time had a complete Prius plug-in setup. Particularly interesting to me, since I get power from a rural electric coop which has its downtimes, is the use of the Prius to supply electricity to the house if needed. I refer you to this website:
    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/09/toyota_dream_ho.php
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It was "treated as new" because no one at Toyota Corporate had ever announced OFFICIALLY that Toyota was looking into PEVs as an item they would sell as a production car.

    This was the first time.
  • michaeltnevillmichaeltnevill Member Posts: 2
    i am about to purchase a 2006 prius,and would like to know if there is a after market charger i could use in my garage at a reasonable price. also would charging the batteries hurt it? and would i have to add additional batteries to attain some results and still be cost efficient-mike please respond-thank you [email protected]
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    It would void your warranty, and the Prius, and other Hybrids, are not made to be "topped' off, but rather keep the battery at about 70-75%. This is to give head room for the regenerative breaking system to charge while driving, etc.

    To keep it at 100% would actually shorten the battery life and impair the system, I believe.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    The beauty of the Prius and other Hybrid systems is that they automatically recharge themselves.

    No plug-in is needed!

    MidCow
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    Yes!

    The best of both for the real world. :)
  • timinalaskatiminalaska Member Posts: 6
    Yes, there is a beauty with the Prius and other Hybrid systems in that they automatically recharge themselves.

    But true beauty is a Prius or hybird where you have an 'optional' ability to plug in and get a 100 mile boost. So for your commuter workweek, you can average 100 miles per gallon. You still don't have to plug in -- but if you want to get a boost, you could average 100 mpg for those everyday trips.
  • battpwrbattpwr Member Posts: 1
    How can you get 100mpg except for coasting?
    Would be great to hear. I have had my 2006 Prius for about 2 months now and am getting 47.5 mpg. Thanks for the info. I'm in Alaska also.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    timinalaska,

    You must be an optimist looking through rose colored glasses. Electric cost to plug-in and charge a battery is not free. You have to equate the cost to equvalent gallons of gas and in doing so recalculate you effective mileage. Remember no energy conversion is 100% efficient coal/hydro > electric> transformers for distribution > battery > mechanical car; there is alway loss!. I surmise you might be suprised to find that if you did have and elctric pulg-in your effective gas mileage would probably go down ; not up.

    YEMMV E=electric

    MidCow
  • timinalaskatiminalaska Member Posts: 6
    For reference, please go to www.calcars.org. In order to get 100 mpg, you must install an after-market conversion where additional batteries that essentially fuel the car for the first 100 miles of a trip are installed.

    The 100 mpg does not hold true for the standard prius, it's for the optional plug-in hybrids, or PHEV. You can convert the standart Prius into a PHEV. And of course there is always loss with energy, but for an overnight charge with the conversion, the electricity will cost you about $1.00. Compare that to an average of $3.00 a gallon for gasoline across the U.S. And while coal plants are still dirty, in California, most of California's energy does not come from coal and it's much cleaner. Unfortunately, coal still account for 60 % of our fuel for electricity for the rest of the U.S.

    But is it easier to clean up millions of dirty cars, or is it better to clean up a relatively small number of coal plants. And as our sources for electricity become cleaner, the optional plug in hybrid makes even more sense.

    Please call Toyota and other hybrid makers to encourage them to make these cars. The cars are available today, but it's engineers on their own that are converting these cars at a high cost. If Toyota can do this in large scale, you could have a hybrid that gets a 100 miles per gallon boost from an overnight charge that costs less than a $1.00. :cry:
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Okay I read you article. It uses old electric prices of 9 cents per kwh. They are double and triple that now. The poultion does not take into account the electric generation. The addtional batteries add to the weight of the car and considerable slow it down and also reduce effective mpg. The PHEV (Plug-In Hybrids what the aritcle says, I think it is Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicles) costs $3-5 more than a hybrid which cost $3-5k more than a conventional ICE.

    Okay thats only a couple of major flaws:

    (1) electric cost is way off
    (2) electric generation not cinsidered in polution
    (3) battery weight increase not compensated for
    (4) 3-5K $ additonal cost not considered.

    Will a PHEV fly, yes it will 3-5% of the current hybrid buyers will buy a PHEV and hybrid buyers account for 3-5% of all new car sales.

    So PHEV will account for .09-.25% of all new car sales and will save the world from polution!

    And where or where does it say 100 mile per gallon boost for $1.00 (which by the way is priced incorrectly) ? 100 miles per gallon by not counting the electric charge or the equivalent cost to generate the eletricity. Even using their figures it cost $0.81 to go 30 miles and a gas cost of $3.00 per gallon at noraml Prius of 45 mpg. To figure out that you are getting 100 mpg actually means the following

    45 mpg at $3.00 = $0.0667 per gallons use x gallons

    Electric cost 0.81/30 = $0.027 per gallon electric cost
    use y gallons

    100 miles/gallon at effective $3.00 gallon = $0.03

    $0.0667*x + $0.027*y = $0.03

    using Y as the dependent and solving

    .027y = -.0667x+.03

    y= ( -.0667x )/.027 + .03/.027

    y =-2.47X + 1.11

    The y intercept is when x= 0.44

    In order to be real numbers x has to be less than 0.44 whch means that in order to achieve 100 mpg most of the power and energy has to come from the battery charge all of the time 56%. Hey i can get 99 mpg in my Accord V6 coasting to a stop in 6th gear!


    I think my windmill perpetual motion car will do better!

    MidCow

    P.S. I am going to solve my gas problems by winning the Shell gasoline giveaway by winning the lifetime gasoline supply.
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    "Okay I read you article. It uses old electric prices of 9 cents per kwh. They are double and triple that now."

    Southern California Edison, it is .37 per KWH, for the basic allocation, baseline. It can go higher, depending on useage, and time of day. :sick:
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    Good post Midcow,

    I had a little trouble following the numbers afterwards
    Let's try my math on your figures.

    " Gas mileage assuming 45 mpg at $3.00/gal =6.67cents/mile
    Electric cost 0.81/30 = 2.7cents/mile

    And now for
    "Mathematics - the most overrated Science"

    To get 100 miles/gallon at effective $3.00 gallon
    Is another way of saying 300 cents will get us 100 miles

    Let z be the number of miles driven on gas :-
    We will need to drive z miles @ 6.67c/mile
    And 100-z miles on battery @2.7cents/mile

    Then 300 = z miles at 6.67cents + (100-z miles)at 2.7 cents

    Thus 300 = z(6.67-2.7) + 270
    Thence 300-270 = z (3.97)
    Whence 30/3.97 = z
    Hence z = 7.55667506297229219143576826196474
    Ergo you would need to drive 7.5miles on gas and 92.5miles on the battery which is basically what you are saying Midcow

    The 7.5 miles would not warm up your engine according to gagrice so your engine gas mileage would be down by 30% meaning you would need even more miles on the battery to make 100mpg.
    And [5] Loss of interest on your $3-5k Phev premium had it been invested instead.
    T2
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Let's carry it on a bit further. According to reports on this illusive Prius plug-in, it has a battery only range of 30 miles. At that point you are running on gas alone. How long does it take the ICE to charge those batteries back up to capacity? I think it all comes from creative thinking and reporting. I was able to get 100 MPG for short runs with my VW TDI. Then came the going up hill section of the highway. I think that it was demonstrated that a stock Prius if set up right and given the right conditions could get 100 MPG. That was hardly your daily commute.

    One last point. Will the extra batteries in this possible PHEV have enough power to carry the Prius to 70 MPH cruising speed without calling on the ICE? If not, it is NOT going to be worth much to most commuters.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    First I'll answer one of the querys that Gagrice brought up in respect to recharging batteries from the ICE. Since the NiMH battery is rated 6.5 AmpHours and MG1 is allowed to perform recharging @ 50 amps then 6.5/50hrs or 7.8minutes is what you're looking for. Of course much less in practice because the battery is not allowed to deplete the SOC beyond 20%. And when charging by ICE cannot go above 80% SOC. Someone else can supply more exact figures. Add-on cells, as proposed here, would be also be subject to the same constraints. In fact the Prius may ignore their presence entirely since it is counting and tracking coulombs flowing in and out and not the battery voltage droop on load (which would be an indication towards end of charge). The point being that the ECU must be aware by altering some parameter in the program. Has anyone that capability outside Toyota ?

    Second in regard to the idea of add-on batteries see my post #118 in "Advanced Hybrid Engineering" board, it's here on Edmunds.

    Third there is no sensible cost effective way to get a 1500cc ICE to move much above 55mpg (in summer temperatures) by novice drivers. That includes all those who don't much care what's going on under the hood. And I'm fine with that.

    It is obvious to me that a smaller engine is the answer, perhaps 600cc with a turbocharger and the ECU will limit RPMs to 5000 so that the Hybrid Synergy software is still operable. Perhaps a ten year old vehicle with a blown engine would be a viable candidate. The 2009's will be out by then and we may be seeing something from Toyota in this direction. Toyota takes small steps. Perhaps they will reduce cylinders and speedup engines. Right now they are probably collecting data regarding long term engine wear (or lack of it) to make those decisions. I don't see them reaching their cost reduction goals unless they make that kind of decision.


    T2
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    Also how much is it going to cost ?????

    Rocky
  • crash58crash58 Member Posts: 1
    Does the Prius have a timing belt or chain? Ive heard that the battery cells last far longer than the 100k that Toyota says. So what sort of major maintenance is required at 100K. Belts? Hoses? Half-Shafts?

    If I get one I plan on 'driving it to the moon', (putting between 250K to 300k miles on it).
  • shalwechatshalwechat Member Posts: 25
    "prices going up, up, up."

    In general inflation has been going up and up. MSRP for a new Prius is around 22,175. Thats about 1,000 or 2,000 then when it first came out. Seem to be in line with inflation for other autos.

    "The only reason I can see for the lighter batteries is less capacity."

    less capacity...The reason is for less weight or more capacity is the reson for lighter batteries.

    "I have not seen any credible evidence that the price of batteries for the hybrids have come down at all since their introduction."

    callign toyota dealerships through out the years there was been a remarketable delcine in batery costs. At first the cost wasd about 8-10 grand to replace the batteries, now its about 3-4 grand to replace the battery.

    "There may have been some subtle advances."

    those subtle advances have increase battery performance by 20% sinse they days of the EV 2. many of those subtle advances have led to lighter batteries.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I am not sure of your research on battery costs. I can tell you that the last I read a traction battery for a 2001 Prius cost $5000 to replace. It would not surprise me to see a difference of $2k to $5k difference between dealers. I priced a gas gauge sensing computer for our Lexus and was Quoted prices from $253 to $556. Until I see a legitimate study where any battery technology cost is going down, I have only seen prices going up. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples as Toyota is not putting the same battery packs in all their hybrids.

    CalCars has promised a PHEV Prius conversion for some time. Is it available to the consumer as of today? If so what is the cost?
  • shalwechatshalwechat Member Posts: 25
    I am not sure of your research on battery costs. I can tell you that the last I read a traction battery for a 2001 Prius cost $5000 to replace. It would not surprise me to see a difference of $2k to $5k difference between dealers. I priced a gas gauge sensing computer for our Lexus and was Quoted prices from $253 to $556. Until I see a legitimate study where any battery technology cost is going down, I have only seen prices going up. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples as Toyota is not putting the same battery packs in all their hybrids.

    CalCars has promised a PHEV Prius conversion for some time. Is it available to the consumer as of today? If so what is the cost?

    Im not talking about Calcars. I was talking about replacing the orginal manufacurer equipment. I priced it about 3-5 grand. What does a gas sensing guage computer have to to battery costs? Which have been going down. Lithiun Ion battery tech is getting very old. The cost to replace the Lithium Ion battery is dropping. The new nanotechnology batteries which are very expensive. like all technology , as it matures, it become cheaper. esp when production kicks in. It costs to push the technology envelope. its cheap to rehash the some ol technology. Its cheap for auto companies to make a new full size p-u. Its expensive to make a hybrid.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    If you priced the Prius battery at $3k-$5k you are about on the money. They have not come down in the last 7 years. Same NiMH battery. NiMH and Li-Ion batteries for laptops have steadily gone up in price. The electronics have come down. Not the batteries. I used a Lexus part to show how dealers price parts differently. I mentioned CalCars because they are the leading proponent of PHEV, which this thread is about. Last I heard the Li-Ion package to make a PHEV out of a Prius was $10k-$12k. Has that price come down. They have used that price point for at least 3 years. Li-Ion technology may be old. It is still not ready for automotive prime time. It may never be. They have two very bad characteristics. They can combust if over charged and they have a relatively short lifespan. These are big obstacles to the 100 MPG hybrid.
  • shileydashileyda Member Posts: 1
    Thats amazing since our 2007 Prius gets a dismal 32 mpg. Toyota says nothing is wrong with it either. Sorry I am now jaded about mileage claims, so I would believe it when I see 100 mpg.

    I would be happy to just get the mileage stated by the factory or even 3/4 of it, certainly I expect to get more than half the specified mileage!
  • shalwechatshalwechat Member Posts: 25
    "If you priced the Prius battery at $3k-$5k you are about on the money. They have not come down in the last 7 years."

    seven years ago people were stating batteries were costing 8 grand to 10 grand to replace. I was born at night,..but not last night.

    According to Toyota, the cost to replace the battery is $3,000 and lets throw in another 2,000 for labor...so 5 grand. and lets throw in another grand, so one can feel cheated and taken advantaged of by the stealership. Thats a new Prius battery and 3,000 for labor to install a battery.

    http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2006/fall/battery.html

    So if the price for a battery significantly differs from Toyota's pice, one should call Toyota and tell em. Toyota designed the Prius to have easy to replace parts. They realized that auto mechanics are not eletrical engineers and the prius was design with that in mind.

    " They have two very bad characteristics. They can combust if over charged and they have a relatively short lifespan. These are big obstacles to the 100 MPG hybrid."

    Many batteries will explode if overcharged. A plain jane car battery will combust if its jumped the wrong way. Im sure the people at calcars have some type of state of charge computer built into their system. I know the Prius does have a state of charge computer in to promote battery life and overcrahrging and undercrarging. This is old technology and one doe not need to revinvent the wheel everytime a new ev or hybrid car comes out.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "I know the Prius does have a state of charge computer in to promote battery life and overcrahrging and undercrarging. "

    True, but the question is - does this same battery life technology also work on LiIon? They are notoriously bad on longevity in laptops. One of the characteristics I found in my Dell is that occasionally it had to be discharged almost fully, or battery use-life would suffer. Also, that battey is now dead; I find LiIon is good for about full 500 cycles.

    I would be interested to hear from someone who has information on LiIon vs NiMh characteristics in this area.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    That has been my experience with my two Dell laptops since they started using Li-Ion batteries. I am sure Sony was not happy to recall a big share of the Dell laptop batteries they sold, because of the threat of fire. So it may be old technology. Is it ready for the automobile? Oh, and my 5 year old Dell laptop with a NiMH battery is still doing nearly as good as new.

    To be practical the PHEV will need a storage system that can use more than 60% of the capacity, as the Toyota hybrids do.
This discussion has been closed.