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What to expect from the next model year Prius



  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 4,098
    "You do realize that since the Gen2 came out there are no such thing as LRRT's on any of the OEMs."

    I'm following this thread with interest. If the tires are not LLRT, then would it not be WORSE for the Prius, since there must be some other explanation why there have been reports of crosswind handling?

    The LLRT would be easily fixed... :confuse:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    God again you're using an outdated source when discussing the crash tests.

    This time however you're 30+ years behind the times. The NHTSA tests are about to be changed at their own initiative because they themselves did a study last year and came to the conclusion that their own tests indicated .... NOTHING!!!

    They stated on the website that they had last made adjustments to the tests in the 70s and 80s and their own tests were outdated. The statement that they made was that there was little correlation between their own tests and real world situation. Too many people were getting hurt/killed by supposedly 'safe' vehciles. They solicited comments from the public for ways to improve the 'predictability' of the tests. Essentially the rest of the world and the IIHS all do the tests one way while the NHTSA does it another way.

    If you buy cars or make decisions on the NHTSA ratings you are putting yourself at their own admission. But continue on in your darkness. It's great to be 30 yrs out of date.

    Here for example are the 'real' crash test ratings for these types of cars.
  • Golly Gee you're only 6-1/2 years out of date!!!!! You do realize that since the Gen2 came out there are no such thing as LRRT's on any of the OEMs. How can you make a post like that based on completely inaccurate data? Pretty soon it will be 2004 and you can bring yourself up to date.

    Really? Because I thought that the Yukon Hybrid was NEW for 2008.

    Like other hybrids, the Tahoe and Yukon are equipped with regenerative brakes that capture energy normally wasted during braking and use it to recharge the battery. A new air-conditioning unit requires less power and thus uses less fuel. And Tahoe Hybrid rides on lightweight aluminum wheels with tires that have low rolling resistance.

    Go ahead and LYAO as you shoot yourself in the foot.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The OEM tires used on the Prius are Goodyear Integrity which are the same tires used on the Corolla and Civic and millions of other small cars with 15" wheels.

    Now the wind buffeting is a minor issue but it is noticable because of the design of the high profile and relatively narrow wheelbase. It's not a huge issue but it's there nonetheless. It's one of the reasons I believe that the new Gen 3 next summer will a little lower, wider and longer.
  • You don't make any sense.

    If you claim NHTSA is out of date, but that IIHS does it differently, yet both agree that Subaru tops the list for all models.

    Lets see this quote that all CURRENT government ratings are useless. Why are YOU quoting data from the 70's and 80's and saying I'm 30-years behind? They said no such thing in their 2005-2009 Plan,

    Through the combined efforts of NHTSA, Congress, states, local law enforcement, public safety groups and industry, the nation has made major strides in reducing fatalities and injuries in motor vehicle crashes.

    An effective way to help consumers enhance the market for safety is to provide them with more comparative vehicle safety information, including crash test ratings and available safety features. Increasingly, consumers are demanding such information and are basing their purchasing decisions on it.

    So what exactly are you basing your safety assumptions on? The Informed for Life site claimed to use both NHTSA and IIHS government ratings, but in the end, they clearly just picked their own numbers.

    Are you defending drum brakes as the epitomy of safety? Do all Toyotas come with standard 4-wheel ABS yet? I know in 2005 only the fronts were standard, with others moving to 4-wheel disk/ 4-wheel antilock long before them.

    The only company I know that is behind the times on safety is Toyota. Even if they fixed the problem, they leave a foul taste in my mouth.

    Clearly it is useless to argue against the propaganda minister in his own forum. It is clear that you have a predisposition to argue in favor of the Prius in spite of all available evidence.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 4,098
    "The only company I know that is behind the times on safety is Toyota. I'm sorry if I don't forget as easily as you that Toyota is willing to sacrifice people to sell cars. Just to remind everyone;

    Even if they fixed the problem, they leave a foul taste in my mouth. "

    Just to be fair, that article deals with the GEN 1 Prius, not the current model.
  • It should also be noted that low 'rolling resistance' is also achieved to this day with narrower tires on the Prius than are used on the Corrola and Matrix. Despite being heavier than cars of its size, its tires are more in line with what is used on the Yaris. A car that gives up 400lbs to the Prius.

    So technically, they are 'lower rolling resistance' because of surface area. Just not tread compound. For those that don't know; traction, breaking, and accident avoidance in general is improved as tread area is increased (so long as the tread is good). At the same time, fuel usage goes down.

    They are still sacrificing safety in the name of the almighty dollar MPG. The Prius drivetrain is not as impressive as you might think, considering all the other sacrifices they have to make to get over 40 MPG.

    kthx. bye
  • bksmith1bksmith1 Posts: 1
    Why would you compare vehicles' safety ratings in two different classes to begin with?
  • Why would you compare vehicles' safety ratings in two different classes to begin with?

    Why would you compare MPG of vehicles of different types? That's where the Outback/Prius conversation started.

    Then I was responding to a 'mathematical' comparison of the Outback vs. Prius safety, which like you say is bogus to begin with, but on top of that the math was bogus.

    Then there's those that want you to believe that the government is trying to kill us all with faulty safety data. That the worst thing you could do is trust the NHTSA ratings. Its a conspiracy! I doubt that very much.

    I think of the Prius as among the least likely vehicles out there to be able to AVOID an accident, let alone survive it. Its as stable as a pig on iceskates, with arthritis in the back feet.

    Fortunately, the best mileage occurs in the city, where high speed crashes are less likely. And both major Prius wrecks I saw this year were on a 65mph highway.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Basic reading for comprehension might help..

    In your quote it talked about the Yukon / Tahoe hybrids. It said nothing about the Prius. That was your own biased interpretation, incorrect BTW.

    It said ' other hybrids the Tahoe and Yukon are equipped with regenerative brakes that capture energy normally wasted during braking ....' PERIOD, new subject,

    IT says nothing about the Prius and LRRT's.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    2008 Corolla specs, Gen 9, are 185 / 65 R15 or 195 / 65 R15 depending on model
    2008 Prius specs, Gen 2, are 185 / 65 R15 or 195 / 55 R16 depending on model

    Regarding the NHTSA tests there's a long discussion on the website of the 'Enhancements' needed....Here's a sample

    Eighty-seven percent of MY 06 vehicles received four- or five- stars for the driver.
    Consequently, the side NCAP ratings are reaching the point of providing little discrimination
    between vehicles. Since the fleet has changed both in terms of weight and front end
    characteristics, and since the side impact occupant protection systems have improved over the years, it is necessary to revisit the design of the side test to better reflect what is occurring in the real world when serious injuries result.

    Approaches to enhancing Side NCAP
    • The agency can use NCAP to encourage head protection by using the pole test
    proposed for FMVSS No. 214 until such time as the rule is fully phased-in. This test
    would continue to measure performance while at the same time indicate to consumers the importance of good head protection devices.16 Some research will be needed to develop a new rating system. Also, since both the ES-2re and SID-IIs dummies were specified for use in the proposed FMVSS No. 214 pole test, a decision will be made on whether one or a combination of these dummies would be used for ratings in the NCAP program.
    • Research that focuses on the assessment of the injury mechanisms in a fully equipped side impact air bag and window curtain fleet needs to be conducted. The purpose is to evaluate how serious injuries occur in a fleet fully equipped with inflatable head protection and develop test procedures to reflect these impact conditions. The outcome of this research could be used to further raise the level of side impact protection. More research is needed, as outlined below:

    • A new barrier test protocol. The research will evaluate the side impact crash
    conditions that generate serious injuries to the occupants of the struck vehicles in
    the new fleet. This includes examining vehicle orientation at impact, vehicle
    trajectory at impact (e.g. barrier impact angle), and impact location.
    • Increase speed. This strategy would potentially address the serious injuries that
    occur in the 21-25 mph delta-V range. The 21-25 mph delta-V range has the
    highest number of serious injuries (5,638) in vehicle-to-vehicle side crashes.
    • Increase barrier weight, change geometry, and/or modify stiffness
    characteristics. This is an opportunity to refine barrier characteristics as the fleet
    changes. It is also a chance to evaluate the different MDB characteristics around
    the world in hopes of developing one common barrier. This strategy could adopt
    the IIHS barrier or build on previous research to develop other methods.
    • Use of new dummies, such as WorldSID. Considerable effort by industry and
    governments has been devoted to development of WorldSID, a new 50th
    percentile side impact male dummy. NHTSA is evaluating the WorldSID
    dummy. If development progresses to the stage that it is ready for incorporation
    into NHTSA’s test dummy regulation (49 CFR Part 572), inclusion in side NCAP
    would follow.
    • Develop additional lateral injury criteria. If new dummies are used, the agency
    would take full advantage of new dummy capabilities to measure additional
    lateral injuries.

    If you read the whole discussion you will see that they state that the test criteria were first set up in the late 70's. A few minor adjustments have been made since then but nearly the entire fleet is 4 or 5 star.
  • Wow. Good job Sherlock. But you still go to the back of the class. Did you bother to read YOUR OWN POST that I was respoding to?

    Golly Gee you're only 6-1/2 years out of date!!!!! You do realize that since the Gen2 came out there are no such thing as LRRT's on any of the OEMs. How can you make a post like that based on completely inaccurate data? Pretty soon it will be 2004 and you can bring yourself up to date.

    In your own words you said "none of the Original Equipment Manufacturers used LRRTs." Incorrect BTW.

    My only interpretation is that you are easily offended by someone who correctly challenges your own limited knowledge and misinterpretation of reference matierial. PERIOD. new subject.
  • Corolla ACTUAL tire specs:


    Yup, all bigger than the Prius tires.

    And we're on Gen. 10 actually. Maybe thats where you got the wrong numbers quoting the car that was built in 2005.
  • Give it up already. Speaking of poor reading comprehension, its only your own biased interpretation that is saying that the NHSTA is admitting their tests are useless. They said just the opposite.

    Of course they want to improve year-to-year. How else would they make progress? Like they have over the last 30 years. They have improved, the tests have worked, and cars on average are safer. So they have to up the standards to discern the good from the average.

    You said it was because they were admitting that people were dying because unsafe cars were incorrectly labeled. That's your own propaganda ministry at work, nothing more.

    You'll never figure it out. I think somewhere in there you know you're flailing like you have a bag over your head. But if you to stay on the offense to save face... its not gonna work.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,137
    Just as a point of interest. The Smart ForTwo has a better rating on your IIHS site than the Prius. I believe I would feel safer in my Sequoia than all the above. I'm tight but not when it comes to protecting myself from the crazies on the highways.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I was talking about Toyota and the Prius OEMs ( meaning Prius OEM equipment ). This is a Prius board. Reading comp problems again?

    However I do see where you might have been confused by the wording. To be precise.... There have been no LRRTs on the Prius model since the end of the Gen 1s in Sept 2003.

    This subject was about the Prius nothing else. You jumped the Yukon/Tahoe into it somehow and for some unknown reason.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I knew exactly what I was doing. I compared the old 2008 Corolla model to the old 2008 Prius model to show the similarity in tires in order to confirm what has been true for the past 5 yrs.

    Yes for two months the new Corolla model has larger tires and we'll have to wait for the new Prius model next summer to finish the comparison.

    But your two original statements were faulty and not founded in fact. That's all I wanted to prove. Just be precise and don't let bias get in the way of a rational viewpoint.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Well from your comment I know that you didn't read the discussion on the website so again I'll do the work for you and give you the relevant quote...

    Congressional interest has also indicated a need for a more comprehensive review of the NCAP.
    In April of 2005, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) published a report based on its study of NCAP.9 The study examined the impact of NCAP on vehicle safety and investigated opportunities to enhance its effectiveness. The GAO’s general recommendations were that “NHTSA examine the direction of the New Car Assessment Program to ensure that it maintains its relevance in improving vehicle safety, including identifying tests that best address the fatalities occurring on the nation’s roads,” and that “NHTSA enhance the presentation and timeliness of the information provided to the public.” More specifically, the GAO cited the recent abundance of four- and five-star ratings and suggested that pending changes to
    compliance testing that would render NCAP’s tests less meaningful. It also pointed out that NHTSA must update NCAP to stay current with changes in the characteristics of the fleet.

    NHTSA generally agreed with GAO’s findings.

    Reading between the lines for those that need it... The GOA directed the NHTSA to get moving and update its 30 yr old tests because these current tests predict little or nothing. The NHTSA generally agreed with GAO's findings
  • You mispoke on each of those 3 occasions. All of my replies were based on you making mistakes.

    "Any OEMs" read correctly is "Any original equipment manufacturers". No bad reading comprehension, I'm not a mind reader. I don't care what you meant beyond what you said.

    The 2008 'model' is the gen-10 Corolla.

    It is only logical that they update standards to continually improve safety accross the board. Making slight improvements is not the same as what you were saying, that the standards are useless.

    The GOA directed the NHTSA to get moving and update its 30 yr old tests because these current tests predict little or nothing.

    Don't interpret 'between the lines' as part of your propaganda ministry. That is NOT what they are saying. All vehicles have come up to spec, so its time to change the spec. It does not say they predict little or nothing. It means most cars are now relatively safe due to the successful testing, and they need to see how much safer the excellent ones are from average.

    Today's passenger vehicles are designed to be more crashworthy than they used to be, largely thanks to this testing. Still, over 30,000 occupants die in crashes on U.S. roads each year.
    The very success of the NCAP means remaining differences in performance among most new vehicles in full-width tests are small. This doesn't mean important crashworthiness differences no longer exist. They do exist, and additional crash test configurations can highlight these differences. One such test is the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's (IIHS) frontal offset crash. Full-width and offset tests complement each other. Full-width tests are especially demanding of restraints but less demanding of structure, while the reverse is true in offsets.


    Go ahead and read it. Notice when they say "23 years later, the standard is the same as it was in 1978." That was 2001. It follows with a long list of improvements.

    You actually haven't managed to make many posts without making significant errors either, so I wouldn't bother sounding superior.

    But like I said you'll never figure it out. I see you troll the Prius boards defending safety. I have no doubt you use bias to form your arguments.
  • 2008 Corolla weighed about the same as the 2009 Yaris. They all wear similar-sized shoes as 2008 Prius.

    The 2008 Prius weighs more than the 2009 Corolla. 2009 Corolla's shoes are wider accross the range. Even the 2004 Camry, which was of roughly equal weight to the Prius, had an extra inch of contact patch.

    2008 Prius wears shoes designed for cars 300-400lbs lighter than itself.

    The point I was trying to make, but we both got lost on how many generations of Corolla there are, and which one is which.

    I get the feeling that the 2009 Prius will be a real porker, close to 2009 Camry weight. Let us indeed see if they follow up with mid-size car tires, as that is what the Prius ought to have always had.

    Indeed I was correct, that compared to other vehicles of its size, Toyota always fitted tires that had less resistance while rolling to the Prius, likely to improve fuel economy. That works the same with any car, but they wanted to exaggerate the improvements of their Synergy Drive. They do not have to be of a LRRT material to achieve that effect. But I guarantee it is at the cost of braking and accident avoidance.
  • These may all be a moot point for everyone. I'm not that interested in arguing the history of NHTSA anymore, despite the disinformation that's been thrown around on this forum.

    I'm sure it does just fine in crash worthiness, as indeed almost all cars tested are getting A's and B's. There are few genearlly 'unsafe' cars in a crash. However, I like to avoid crashes altogether, and NHTSA is making it a primary goal to study accident avoidance.

    That is something that is as of yet untested and unverified. But do a google search for 'Prius' and 'wet' and you'll see what I mean. Its not the most stable vehicle out there.

    People buy it for MPG. Great, it is the best out there. No argument. But please don't pretend it's the best thing since sliced bread for everyone and all purposes. You do make some concessions with most cars, and this is no different.

    We all know its not among the fastest, or the sportiest, or the best handling, even the most comfortable vehicles on the road. IMO, you could add not the safest to that list. It may be the best fuel sipper.

    We all have our priorities.
  • maribagomaribago Posts: 5
    I have a 2006 Prius and am considered a second one, once the 2009 is here. Anyone know if it will have improvements such as the following:
    -- Front/rear disc brakes?
    -- Sturdier, less cheesey plastic dash?
    -- More adjustments for front seats?
    -- More powerful heater?

    I do love the mileage, mind you. But I have to tell people, when asked, that it is basically a low-end car (think Corolla) with an advanced power train. Is there hope for improvements in 2009?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    There will be no changes on the 2009s at all. They will be carryovers until the big change next summer as a 2010 MY. Announcement to be made in January at the NAIAS.

    As to your specific questions, only the builders/designers know and it's doubtful we'll know anything before Jan.
  • gearhead8gearhead8 Posts: 12
    I followed your link but found only complaints about the tires on the 2002 Prius. The four year old article points out that the Toyota Dealer found an additional tire that was in need of replacement. It sounds like an issue with the tire manufacturer or a maintenance issue with the owner of that Prius.
    I don't own a Prius (mostly because I am unwilling to stand in line behind dozens of other buyers who are willing to buy a Prius on the dealers terms (often above MSRP)), but EVERYONE I know who drives a Prius loves the vehicle. Only one person I have spoken to has had a problem. A failed ECM after 110,000 miles on her 2002 Prius.
    I will not be swayed by anecdotal evidence from a driver who doesn't understand the any mechanical device requires a minimum of maintenance. I won't blame the car. I would blame the driver who does not perform regular maintenance on the vehicle. Any driver who does not at least casually inspect the most important piece of safety equipment regularly (tires) deserves some inconvenience.
  • lotusfanlotusfan Posts: 9
    gearhead8 wrote:
    I don't own a Prius (mostly because I am unwilling to stand in line behind dozens of other buyers who are willing to buy a Prius on the dealers terms (often above MSRP))

    I don't know where you're getting these quote over MSRP, but I recently got quotes for a loaded Touring edition Prius from 6 dealers -- half on the east coast (Virginia), half in the West (Colorado, New Mexico), and NONE were over MSRP and most were under MSRP, with the best about $900 under MSRP.

    I, however, decided to wait for the 2009 model.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    The seats are the main reason I didn't get the Prius. I didn't like the styling inside or out, or the handling, or the poor rear visibility, but I was willing to live with the styling and just get one with the optional backup camera, but the lack of seat comfort and thigh support was the deal killer. Even a manual seat height/tilt adjustment knob probably would have been enough to cure the problem.

    I have already purchased a new vehicle that only gets average MPG that I plan to enjoy for about 3-4 years. I will probably revisit the next generation Prius or another model that gets similar mileage in it's 2012-2013 model year.
    The new Prius design would have been out for at least 3 years by then giving them plenty of time to fix glitches and adjust production capacity to demand.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    There is nothing different about the 2009. No point in waiting for it.
    If you are going to wait, you might as well wait longer and get the new 2010 model.
  • prius08lbprius08lb Posts: 1
    Hello, I love my Prius but occasionally I'll be at a stop and the it will show on the display that it's not using electric or gas but the engine is still running. Then the engine will stop but make a thud noise and jolt the car. Is this normal?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yes. Completely normal, just ignore it. 78000 miles and counting.
  • jde4jde4 Posts: 1
    "There is nothing different about the 2009." -- How do you know what the changes (or lack there of) to the 2009 will be? When should Toyota annouce / present the 2009's?
This discussion has been closed.