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If they ever actually sell a Genesis or two, maybe then we will know what it is (or isn't) although history would seem to tell us that the manufacturer would have us believe that it is/will be a whole lot more than it likely is/will be. Hyundai is unarguably a manufacturer 'on the rise' IMO, they simply need to understand what they actually are though - in the past and present.
Anyway, the point isn't being missed at all because you haven't made a valid one yet. Hyundai understands what they are and therefore, to change the image they once had of simply offering value based products that gave you less than what you paid for, the have turned it around to being a company that offers you more than what you pay for. Along the way, they've managed to increase their quality and reliability. Are either as good as they can be, no...there's still room for improvement, but they have a pretty strong foothold on that and the Azera, Veracruz have proven it, along with the redesigned Sonata. The upcoming Genesis is like the cherry on top of the huge sundae (hopefully)!!!
Here's a question...any boost in sales with the re-fresh of the Taurus?
now THAT is opinion - I personally regard a 'real' car as one that is something more than an overpowered conveyance that gets us from A to B. Most of what the Germans make, as well as some of what the Japanese make currently meet that 'real' car definition, something that in itself is not related to price (although it seems to work out that way). Keep in mind that this 'overpowered conveyance' idea while they may allow for some 'fun' certainly applies to something more than Sonatas. You and I both drive one!
What is your definition of overpowered? I hardly consider the Azera or Avalon to be overpowered at all. If anything...they are like your favorite pair of jeans...just right!
how can you not :confuse: - both cars will accelerate in times roughly equal to those same times posted by many of those 'muscle cars' in the 60s and use a lot less gas doing it. Furthermore, it wasn't all that long ago that 0-60 in 10 seconds was deemed sufficient. Ask somebody that didn't spend the extra money for the Accord V6 and instead opted for that wonderful 4 banger that they don't consider that V6 to be overpowered. Is a 300 hp 335i overpowered ? Nope - because it properly gets all that power to the ground, and is otherwise designed to handle it. Not the case with our Avalons or Azeras - doesn't mean though that I would likely give you back even one of my 268hp!
Considering the 335i is a sports sedan, it IS designed to handle 300 hp and it gets it to the ground very nicely. Our cars are hardly overpowered, they just don't use the most efficient method of putting that power on the pavement. However, considering our cars to be family sedans, touring sedans at best...does it really suffer from the drive configuration? Our cars are designed to handle the power they put out, they're not designed to be driven like one would drive the 335i.
I can tell you this much, driving anything with less power than my Azera feels funny. My buddy has a Magnum R/T with some custom work done under the hood. It's putting out at least 375 hp, when he stepped on the gas pedal...I was like, "WHY???" The 263 hp in my Azera is more than enough power to get me in LOTS of trouble, where in the world would you get full use of 375 hp??? In my opinion...his Magnun with 375 hp is overpowered.
while you and I certainly agree on that and I would even go further to say that the 'excess' HP handled intelligently (the reverse can also be true) makes our cars actually safer than the same cars limited to maybe 200hp or so (like the Lucerne 3.8, the old 500, the 4 banger midsizers etc. etc. - I think 'necessity' is a hard concept to sell, luxury might be a better word.
PS the most 'efficient' method of getting the power to the ground is MORE than simply FWD vs. RWD and is also a lot more than engine and/or interior volume specs. - something that Hyundai apparently doesn't understand, and is perfectly illustrated by the Chrysler 300. Toyota seems to understand this - they manufacture perfectly wonderful cars called the Lexus IS, GSs and LSs, likewise Nissan with the Infiniti Gs and Ms - just not Hyundai, who seems to be guilty of having a rather fertile imagination and/or a screwy PR dept.. I haven't had the privilege of specifically driving a 335 yet (really hoping for the 135)- but when I do - I will find a balance, a feel, a cohesiveness, and a singularity of purpose all of which I don't find in things like Azeras and Avalons.
As sports cars, the Azera, Avalon and even the Maxima fall way short. However, as family sedans, the shine quite brightly. Of the 3, the Maxima would probably allow one the most amount of fun on winding mountain road (without an over-indulgence in exuberance). Even the Avalon would provide and exhilirating ride on such a road. The Azera, well...I can't say that much unless you want to drive by the seat of your pants...it's strongest characteristic is highway cruising.
I'm not sure why you feel that Hyundai doesn't get the power to the pavement, that's really not the problem. The problem is the fuel efficiency. Considering the Azera is right behind the Avalon in 0-60 time, with 5 less hp...it must get the power down pretty darn good.
But I do play basketball, just not in NBA...
Since the Sonata doesn't play in the same "league" as the 5-series so IMO that is an useless fact.
Another example of useless fact is comparing a .300 hitter in AA to a .280 hitter in the Major Leagues, which is exactly what Hyundai did with the commercial.
This whole thread is not about Hyundai's 'inability' to get 'power to the pavement', Hyundai does it in a similar manner as almost all the cars we talk about here - it has to do with Hyundai's seeming affliction to represent their products as much more than they are or could possibly be.
Having driven a Maxima in Montana on winding roads just recently I can tell you that although stiffer and slightly better steering feel the limitations of the weight and FWD show up really quick when taking the curves. I pushed the car through some, that it took nicely, however, my Avalon (softer XLS model, BTW) would have taken them as well just with more body roll and steering that would have you wondering what was going on at times. It was a nice sporty "feel" but no doubt I was reminded what I was driving a few times. OTOH... on some nice deserted straightaways me and the VQ got very well acquainted
On another note, if you ever get the chance Montana is possibly one of the most beautiful places I have ever been in this country. I was working with a customer and had an afternoon before I left to go exploring. Wish I had more time.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
doing these days is literally copycatting other cars that are on the market today both on the exteriors and interiors, such as Veracruz-Lexus RX350, Azera-Lexus LS, Genesis-BMW 5-Series. While I'll be the first to admit that the Hyundai products are looking much better than they have in the past, they're not being innovative or adding something distinctive, except for maybe some price differences. Ditto, the advertisements coming
out from Hyundai haven't swayed me a bit!
dad took out west in 1991. We took my 1988 Mazda RX-7 that I was driving at the time all the way out to Montana, Wyoming and South Dakota. It truly is God's country out there! I would love to do that trip again some day!
If that's true, then how come I hardly see any of these two particular cars on the road where I live(Tampa, Florida, by the way), especially the Veracruz???
In all fairness isn't this exactly what the Japanese did 30 years ago or so and furthermore are any of these cars truly different from a styling standpoint? My problem with Hyundai really has nothing to do with its products, which while the jury may still be out on their latest round of creations, they are unarguably substantial improvements on some real garbage that Hyundai produced not to long ago. It has to do with 'the boy crying wolf'. As long as any car company is going to insist on making ridiculous claims and/or comparisons, I will pay less and less attention to them even to the point of dismissing any future claims just because of who they came from - kinda of like that boy who cried 'wolf'.
Hyundai, perhaps unfortunately, still has a long way to come to gain the public's confidences and the way that they choose to present these new products does nothing but hurt those perceptions IMO.
In the DC area, I can say now I'm starting to see as many Veracruzes as I am Azeras.
It's hard for me to imagine that 5 years ago, this level of owner support for Hyundai would be forthcoming. While, not a fact, but more of an opinion, it is becoming clear that Azera owners are very happy with their cars. Hyundai has discovered a way of presenting a large sedan, that its owners find to be an incredible value and possessing most, if not all, of the features and attributes they look for in a large sedan.
Whether the Captain or other non-owners think the Hyundai advertising is the right message to be sending, for those of us who have actually purchased their cars and live with them every day, we have found that in our opinions, Hyundai has more than met its claims, it has exceeded them.
This does not mean we don't want another few horsepower, another couple of mpg, or the ride and suspension system of a 7 series bimmer. But, we are adamant in our feeling that we have a great car, which as a bonus came at a great price. When talking about our Azzy's in comparison with other mainstream sedans, I doubt even the Captain would fail to acknowledge that something must be working for the level of support the Azera has in this an other forums.
I've previously given you plenty of links where you can take this conversation. You really need to do that if you want to continue this vein.
Off topic posts are going to begin disappearing without notice.
Since I am only speaking of the Azera in my post, please explain how that is off topic. Are we not supposed to mention the manufacturer, just the model from now on?????
Don't bet on it - it already has and is. Just not quite ready to hand them my checkbook, though - no 'proven' track record (IMO) - at least quite yet.
I think if you review the last couple of pages of posts here, you'll understand my concern that the topic had shifted dramatically from the mainstream large sedans we've been discussing.
If you still have questions, please email me. We need to get back on track.
Thanks.
Again, thanks to all.
Apparently you haven't done enough research...
The "problem" for the Toyota V6 tranny only happened to something like the first batch of the new Camry. On top of that, the "problem" was an easy fix, just a programming issue.
The tranny "problem" was and yes STILL in the 2001 to 2006 Toyota/Lexus V6 auto transaxle line. I know because I have one. The "easy fix programming" never did fix the problem, no matter what Toyota says. I can duplicate the sever hesitation problem at will.
Can someone confirm or correct me here please?
The first 100 or so '07 Camrys with the six speed actually had mechanical failures . The "flaring" issue was largely with the 5 speed / 4cyl Camrys that has been resolved with reflashing the computer. The "hesitation problem" is a function of the transmission logic. These vehicles (Camry, Av, Sienna, HL, ES, RX, Solara etc) actually upshift when slowing down at around 10 - 15 MPH, if right after this upshift you call for a downshift at low engine RPM there can be a 1 or 2 second delay while the ATF pump catches up to make the shift happen. I have read about several places including here at Edmunds (wwest is very knowledgeable with this topic). That is why you can actually make it occur. My car will do it if I try hard enough to make it so. It has happened maybe once or twice on its own in the 23K that I have driven my '06 Avalon.
Having said all that.. I have driven just about everything in Yotas line in one form or another and never have found it to be a problem. The one thing I will say is that if you "tenderfoot" these cars the tranny will hold onto high gear a touch longer when you get on it. I used to notice this whenever I drove my Mother's '05 HL. After a few miles with my heavier foot it began to shift more like my car.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
You are correct. It's the hesitation problem that was/is the predominant issue with the 01-06 5spd transaxles... and still is.
It may not be a problem to you or other who do not do a lot of stop and go heavy traffic or are aware of it and work around it. When in that situation I shift manually to avoid the hesitation. BUT, there are times when I have to get off and on the throttle at that up shift time and experience the hesitation.
The hesitation in these cars are not or your normal run of the mill kind. When it happens and your on the gas, the tranny drops into a gear with a violent bang that shakes the whole car. You think the tranny is going to fall out of the car.
It's easy to duplicate, accelerate up to about 15-20MPH, get off the gas and then back on... it will happen frequently
It is well documented here at Edmonds.
Okay, then please tell me which new Toyota/Lexus model(s) still has the 5 speed mated to the 2GR V6.
If the hesitation problem only occurs on the 5spd V6s then that should no longer be a concern for those who are thinking about buying a brand new V6 Toyota.
And please note that this discussion does not appear on that list. That would be because the Camry is not included in our topic here.
Just thought I'd share.
On a side bar...when the Azera was brought out...it was orginally just offered as a 3.8 here in the U.S., but the 3.3 was offered over in Australia and up in Canada (I think), but basically...the overseas market. It made it's way into the U.S. market as a late '07 as the GLS model.
While I liked them both, I have to say that my reaction to the Azera was "that was nice", while the Taurus was more "wow - that was great!" Obviously it's a personal opinion, but I can't understand how the Edmunds Editors rated the interior and design of the Azera well above that of the Taurus. To me, the Taurus interior was just much better - the comfort, the materials, (particularly the leather seats), even the stereo sounded better than the 605w Infinity in the Azera.
Both very attractive, but in my opinion, the Taurus is just much more vehicle - almost in a different segment. YMMV
I think the majority would disagree with you.
I am sure both are fine cars but between the two Azzy is the winner in my book. Details aside, at least it doesn't look boring or like a ripped off Audi...
WRT the Azera interior - my only real problems with it were the silver metallic-looking plastic center console, which seemed really flimsy, and the large swath of grained plastic across the dash. The dash plastic looked and felt pretty durable, but it was just a little plain. But hey - I'm not looking to spend Lexus money, and either one I'm shopping is a great value.
Speaking as a fan of the Azera, I always have liked the Ford's exterior more than most people do. I was always a big fan of the Passat's lines, and the Ford is clearly just an enlarged version of them, which means it's automatically more tasteful right off the bat than 75% of the Big 2.8's output.
The styling problem I have with the Taurus is the inside. It's huge, but the dash and door panels just look to me like large, flat, cheap expanses, and the gauges in particular don't look big, clean or high-dollar in their presentation. I honestly wish I liked these aspects better, but I can't bring myself to do so. Sure hope they address this decisively in the 2010 restyle, as Chevy did with the Malibu and Hyundai with the '09 Sonata.
More importantly, the Avalon did not offer near the features that the Azera did and I got the Azera Ltd. with Ultimate package for $27,000. BTW, got more on my Camry from Hyundai than Toyota offered against the Avalon and bought Camry from same dealer.
Looked at Maxima, Acura TL and Infiniti G35 and others and they just did not measure up to the Azera FOR MY NEEDS/WANTS. Recently was offered a new 2008 Acura RL with technology package for under 40,000. Based on what I would give up on the Azera, I couldn't see it without even considering the cost difference.
My only complaint with Azera is the bouncing/wallowing on roads with dips and crests. Maybe someday Hyundai will admit it is a problem and find a fix for it.
Good luck all - this is a great tine for new cars!
Enjoy the car.
P.S. the "high seating position" was originally a big selling point when Ford introduced the 500 in '05. I believe they called it "command seating" or something to that effect.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
AKA Buick -itis and something that not even the Lucerne suffers that much from anymore.
Agree with you, think that Hyundai has overdone the soft ride thing, but don't believe you'll find them admitting it is a problem, it is, after all, what many folks of cars like this want, and rarely do you get a soft ride without an (overly) compliant suspension. They made the correct guess on the American driver preferences much like Toyota has been adept at doing for years and years now. We Americans have generally shown to prefer the highway cruiser to the 'road car'. The Avalon, long known as 'the best Buick GM never built' in the two top trims suffers from much the same condition, although it is (ultimately) more controlled IMO.