Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • tinydog1tinydog1 Member Posts: 83
    I test drove the Avalon and Azera when lookin for a new car. The Azera won hands down. The Avalon exhibited a hesitation on acceleration, was noisier, and the trans did not shift smoothly. The Azera is so fluid, super smooth engine and trans, smooth throttle response, quiet, excellent ride, and fit and finish is flawless. No regrets here, no problems, has performed flawlessly. Purchased the Limited w/ Ultimate package for thousands less than an Avalon Limited. I loved the Azera so much, I went out and purchased an 06 Sonata LX, also an awsome car. :)
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    Only Buick fans here? How about Impala and Charger? To tell the truth, I personally like all the sedans in this forum but the Amanti. I don't find the design appealing at all. As for the 300, I know only the 2.7L fits in this forum and I don't think it has a lot of fans. Unless someone proves me wrong.

    Captain2 and Buzz123, what are your favorite American made and why? Question open to all.
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    There is an article that compares the Honda Accord V6, Toyota Camry, Hyundai Azera, and Buick Lucerne because all are in the same price range.

    Can anyone guess how the order turned out? Like if it's anything new.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This discussion is about all of the vehicles listed at the top of the page.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    averigejoe, you need to email me immediately.
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyMember Posts: 12,675
    "Isn't the Avalon built on the Camry chassis?"

    No the 05, 06 Avalon was a complete redesign. The earlier Avalons were on a stretched Camry frame.

    You cannot compare the 3800 V6 to the Avalon V6 not even close. It is a good engine, can't knock that. But coming in at only 197 HP and still getting less MPG than the competitors puts the car at a disadvantage.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 25,991
    >06 Avalon was a complete redesign. New engine, trans, and chassis. The earlier Avalons were on a stretched Camry frame.

    "Redesigned from the ground up, the Avalon now rides on a stretched version of the current Camry platform."

    Anything that starts with something else and 'stretches' it is not a redesigned from ground up. It's based on the Camry platform which has been stretched.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • oilcan2oilcan2 Member Posts: 120
    Avalon is built on a bigger chassis and the 3800 engine is
    197 hp compared to 268 and is rated at 28 hyw mpg.All else
    being equal I would chose the AV with better mileage and alot more power.I did test drive a Lucerne and what I did'nt
    like was the 1960's 6 by 9 rear speakers compared to the
    Avalons powered subwoofer,its a small point but this was the
    upgraded radio on the Lucerne and the Avalon sounded much
    better.
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyMember Posts: 12,675
    "The Avalon is the first Toyota that is not only styled and built in the United States but is also completely engineered here. The all-new platform and 3.5-liter, 280-hp V-6 were designed in our backyard in Ann Arbor, Michigan, at the Toyota Technical Center, and they'll make their way into many future Toyota and Lexus vehicles."

    This was taken from a popular auto magazine's website. The 05 Avalon was a new design. Yes, now it shares its platform with the Camry as it always did. My point is that it is new, not recycled.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 25,991
    Shares platform. My point exactly. My source is Edmunds.... ;)

    It's the Camry chassis stretched. Says it right there without the spin.
    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=105147/pageNumber=5

    Paragraph #3.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 25,991
    How do the torque ratings compare for normal driving rpms? Not the screaming, thrashing speeds that most people driving a car of this ilk don't drive at.

    Too if the 400 lbs extra weight (from another post, haven't verified) for the Lucerne doesn't cost a small gas penalty I'd be surprised. But I'd also be surprised to find the real world driving difference to be more than 1 mpg. I'll take the smooth and quiet of the Lucerne. You're welcome to your opinion just like I have mine.

    >1960's 6 by 9 rear speakers compared to the
    Avalons powered subwoofer,


    I find the 8 RDS radio speakers in my 03 LeSabre more than adequate for anything we play. Otherwise I can listen to my AR3a at home.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyMember Posts: 12,675
    The weight difference is more like 275 LBS with the 3800. Taken right off Buick's website.

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  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    answer may surprise you - the Avalon. 'American' made has become a confused term. There are actually more American made parts and American labor in many of Toyota's products than there are in some Fords, Chevys, Chryslers etc.. As tjc notes the 05 Avalon is a completely new design from Calif., the engine from Michigan, and production, of course, in Kentucky. It is the new 07 (US made) Camry that now uses many of the pieces developed for the Avalon, opposite from what it used to be, if that kind of thing really matters.

    if what you mean is favorite 'American branded' car - then, I would have to give a passing nod to Ford/Volvo for the 500. IMPO I think the exterior styling is way too conservative but the interior design and space is outstanding with a fit/finish that's almost too good to be Ford. The 500 has potential - but no heart!
    The 300 is obviously a love-it or hate-it styling exercise (Chrysler always been good at that). IMO the one to have is the Touring/Ltd. with the 3.5 V6. The 300C (Hemi) from what I understand has been a disaster from a reliability standpoint and FE is terrible.
    The enthusiast magazines have done a number of comparisons - C&D 07-05, and a more recent MT article. LaCrosse, 500, 300, Maxima, Amanti, Azera, Passat all tested along with the Avalon. All these tests the Avalon came out on top - the car that those who are uninformed think is a 'stretched' Camry.
    If you want power: the Avalon, Maxima and Passat V6 are all very close but if you also want FE, nobody is close to the Avalon. CR, of course, has it rated as the best large sedan they have ever tested, along with the Acura TL. And if you do some investigation, you may find out that more of your money is staying here in the US buying that Toyota or Nissan, than it is with many of the other choices.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Shares platform. My point exactly.

    Okay, so they share platform but what's your point exactly? The point tjc78 was trying to make is that the new Avalon is build on a brand new platform and that's being confirmed with his source and your source as well. Since both of y'all proved that it's build on a brand new platform what's the point of argument here?

    Also, let me remind you this: the new generation Avalon came out before the new Camry so the new platform was first used on the Avalon other than Camry. So instead of saying the Avalon uses a streched Camry platform it's more like Camry is sitting on a shortened Avalon Platofrm.

    I know this argument is kind of pointless but I hope you see my point.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the original poster was talking about the power/ride of the Lucerne V8 which is rated at about the same HP as the Avalon V6, but will still fail to keep up with the Av. The 400 lb. difference is with the V8 option. The anemic 3.8 is lighter but at 200 hp and still a weight diadvantage, the Avalon is in the next county before that car ever gets up to speed!
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyMember Posts: 12,675
    The whole point I was trying to prove is that the Avalon is a new car with new frame, engine etc. The Lucerne is more of a "parts bin" build up. With old school drivetrains.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 25,991
    Also, let me remind you this: The new generation avalon came out before the new camry so the then current camry chassis was used (stretched). That's in March 2005... I supply the quote below for your convenience. So it's built on the 2005 Camry chassis--not on "a brand new platform what's the point of argument here?".

    I know this argument is kind of pointless but I hope you see my point.

    ********************
    ********************
    ********************

    Quote from Edmunds:

    2005 Full-Size Sedan Comparison Test
    First Place: 2005 Toyota Avalon

    By Erin Riches
    Date posted: 03-22-2005

    Americans may have invented the full-size sedan, but leave it to Toyota to figure out what we like and build a car that knocks the wind out of the domestics…again. And since the 2005 Toyota Avalon is assembled in Georgetown, Kentucky, by U.S. workers, even those with Old Glory tattooed on their chests will have little reason to deny themselves this excellent car.

    Inside, the Toyota is a luxury liner with room to spare in every direction and refinement oozing from every surface. Of course if you're a serious enthusiast, the Avalon will never deliver the back-roads thrills of the rear-drive Chrysler 300, but it did beat the 300 in every measurable performance category.

    Discreetly Fast
    Redesigned from the ground up, the Avalon now rides on a stretched version of the current Camry platform. Its sheet metal is crisp and modern, yet unremarkable next to the Chrysler 300's. The Toyota looks like a pleasant car, but not a fast one

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    tjc78, I knew what you meat, I was trying to figure out imidazol97's point of argument during my last post. ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    imidazo97, now I got your point, thanks for the info, you learn something new everyday...

    However, the new Avalon does use a brand new designed engine though, shared with the Camry and ES350.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    which is really the problem - GM loses $2500.00 on every car it sells - and really doesn't have the money to develop anything approaching the technological wonder that the Avalon engine is, for example.
    Maybe Nissan will make the mistake of 'buying' GM and, in the process, make GM a player in the car business again.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 25,991
    is the Lucerne is redesigned but it's not new, someone said. The Avalon is based on a Camry (so is a Lexus) and it is all "new and designed" from the "ground up." So I had to make that point.

    Sometimes people have a higher tolerance for PR spin on some model they like, which their level goes off for some other brand.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    here's a concept for you - your Edmunds source is wrong! And merely repeating what he/she knew was true in the past.
    05 Avalon 04 Avalon 04/05 Camry
    111" WB 107" 107"
    73" width 71 71
    197" length 191" 189"
    Since 'a stretched version' (quoting your article) obviously implies some sort of parts commonality and we also know that the drivetrain is completely new - what parts do you suppose the 05 Avalon shares with an 05 Camry - a trunk hinge - maybe? No, obviously the frame is different, the suspension components different, the drivetrain different - what's left - oh, I know it must be the power window motor switches but on further investigation I find those to be unique as well!
    Yes, the 04 Avalon was a gussied up Camry, the 05/06s are unique cars - even the press can be wrong sometimes - just like me!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    here's a concept for you - your Edmunds source is wrong! And merely repeating what he/she knew was true in the past.
    05 Avalon 04 Avalon 04/05 Camry
    111" WB 107" 107"
    73" width 71 71
    197" length 191" 189"
    Since 'a stretched version' (quoting your article) obviously implies some sort of parts commonality and we also know that the drivetrain is completely new - what parts do you suppose the 05 Avalon shares with an 05 Camry - a trunk hinge - maybe? No, obviously the frame is different, the suspension components different, the drivetrain different - what's left - oh, I know it must be the power window motor switches but on further investigation I find those to be unique as well!
    Yes, the 04 Avalon was a gussied up Camry, the 05/06s are unique cars - even the press can be wrong sometimes - just like me!
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    2006 Avalon Limited Invoice FULLY LOADED: $34,438 (Base $29,888)
    INCLUDES: Nav. ($1,625), VSC ($520), Dynamic Laser Cruise Control ($480), V.I.P.-Remote Start ($356), Satellite radio ($359), Preferred Premium Accessory Package ($259), Rear Spoiler ($199), Sunroof Wind Deflector ($55), Emergency Assistance Kit ($55), Alloy Wheel Lock ($37), Cargo Tote ($25), Destination ($580)

    2007 Camry XLE Invoice FULLY LOADED: $27,620 (Base $24,492)
    INCLUDES: Nav ($1,020), VSC ($520), Preferred Premium Accessory Package ($296), Smart Key System ($360), Heated Front Seats ($352)

    Difference between 2006 Avalon Limited and 2007 Camry XLE STANDARD FEATURES:
    268 [email protected] rpm, 248 Lbs-ft of torque @ 4700 (same for both)
    5 sp trany-Avalon, 6 sp trany-Camry
    SUSPENSION (same on both)
    INSTRUMENTATION (same on both)
    17" alloy wheels-Avalon, 16" alloy wheels-Camry
    17" tires-Avalon, 16" tires-Camry
    full size spare tire-Avalon, temp. spare tire-Camry
    alloy spare wheel-Avalon, steel spare wheel-Camry
    ROOF AND GLASS: same except Camry has manual rear sunshade, Avalon has power, Avalon-rain sensing wipers
    SAFETY FEATURES: Camry has over Avalon: emergency braking assist, tire pressure monitoring, auto delay off headrests, front and rear seat belt pretensioners (Avalon only has front); Avalon has Xenon headlights
    AUDIO SYSTEMS: Both have JBL, Avalon has 12 speakers, Camry has 8 speakers, Avalon has 360 Watts, Camry has 440, Avalon has a sub woofer, Camry has MP3 playback
    FRONT SEATS: Avalon has over Camry: 12 way power driver (Camry 8 way),Heated Driver Seat, multilevel heated passenger seat, ventilated passenger seat
    REAR SEATS: Camry-split rear seat folding, Avalon-Rear center armrest has pass-thru
    MEMORIZED SETTINGS (Avalon only): 2 drivers includes driver's seat and exterior mirrors

    Turning Circle: Avalon-36.9, Camry-36.1

    Exterior:
    Length-Avalon 197.2 in., Camry 189.2
    Width-Avalon 72.8 in, Camry 71.7
    Height-Avalon 58.5 in, Camry 57.9
    Weight-Avalon 3600 lbs., Camry 3516
    Wheel Base-Avalon 111 in., Camry 109.3
    Ground clearance-both 5.3 in
    EPA Passenger Vol: Avalon-107 cu ft, Camry-101 cu ft
    EPA Luggage Vol: Avalon-14 cu ft, Camry-15 cu ft

    How they drive and how comfortable the seats are is subjective. I assume that the 2007 Avalon will have more than the 2007 Camry. When is 2007 Avalon out?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Although Lucerne is a new design but it's sharing the same platform with the DTS, using an old engine and transmission. The only reasons that it's a new design are because it's a brand new model and it has a brand new exterior design. On the other hand, even though if the new Avalon did share the same platform as the last generation Camry (I am not too sure about this now after reading captain2's post) it did utlize a brand new engine and transmission. Toyota also improved Avalon's interior tremandously that many reviewers said it's approaching Lexus' quality.

    I guessed what I am trying to say is that by comparing the Lucerne with Avalon, the later does have the edge IMO. But please don't mistaken this as I am bashing the Lucerne. By no means that Lucerne is a bad car as matter of fact it is one of the few domestics I would recommand to people who are considering buying domestics. However, the truth is that when put the 2 on a side by side comparison the Lucerne is still the inferior product.

    Am I biased? Maybe. But that's just my own opinion.
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyMember Posts: 12,675
    Actually, I think the door lock switch might be the same one that was on my '03 Avalon. LOL

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  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yep, forgot about the door lock. The new Hummer, BTW, a stretched Cobalt. Good fun, I guess, but back to the point - until the 'American' mfgrs can figure out a way to make some money and build competitive engines they will continue to lag, especially in the car market. It is not that Lucernes are necessarily bad, just 10 years+ out of date from a technological point of view, just like most the other US branded products.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and before we get too down on Buicks, understand that:
    1) the 3.8 V6 pushrod, which has been around since the 50s, is one helluva reliable solid and relatively economical engine, as many owners of things like a '95 LeSabre can attest. 200k+ somewhat common and with minimal problems. Every bit what an Avalon engine should be from a durability standpoint, just rougher and down on power and FE.
    2) The Northstar V8s not around as long, more contemporary OHC design, smoother and quieter power, spottier reliability reputation, and more than enough power for a 4000 lb. car at the expense naturally of some more FE.
    3) In recent memory and to my knowledge, Buick sedans have always excelled in the soft/quiet ride dept and when compared to Buick's 'Detroit' peers - assembled better.
    Despite what the consumer or enthusiast mags. might say, there are an awful lot of happy Buick owners out there. And isn't that all that really matters?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I agreed with you on all 3 of your points. Yes, the V6 is one hell of an engine, the northstar is powerful and quiet and there are a lot of happy Buick owners out there. However, the point that I am trying to make is that even with all those, the Lucerne is still an old design with a new exterior. Nobody was saying that old design is not good but when facing a counterpart with all the new technologies it is just not competant enough. Will it go 200k+? Yes. Will it get you from point A to B? Yes. However, it is just...old.
  • wamba2000wamba2000 Member Posts: 146
    I was an American sedan fan, had one of the Chrysler LH "cab forward" cars that went over 100K miles with no real problems before I sold it. When we started shopping for a sedan for my wife to drive, we started by looking at the Dodge Charger, which I think has great styling and use of space....however, my wife, who has neck problems, could not get in/out of the car without pain in her neck. The Roofline is lower than on many sedans, so the Charger was out.

    Next we went to Toyotas, and there were two problems with the Camry and Avalon: 1) again the neck pain getting in and out and the prices were above invoice, this dealer wasn't dealing.

    Then we looked at the Chev Impala. Nice enough car, but not much style.

    Stopped at the Nissan Dealer and looked at the new Maxima. The sales techniques ran us off, plus the pricing was over what we wanted to spend.

    Stopped to look at Mazda, this dealer sells Hyundai also. The Mazda 6 was way too small, but saw the Sonata and then....the AZERA. No problems with ingress/egress for my wife, the content was outstanding and the pricing very attractive. Worked out some details and we now have an Azera Limited.

    Bottom line: yes, Hyundai has made some great strides in quality (JD Power Large Sedan award winner a month ago) and I know the jury is still out on what re-sale value will be for a used Azera. Since we keep cars 8-10 years and the warranty will likely cover the time we own it, the Azera was a good choice for us.

    Have to admit I didn't drive the Lucerne or 500. In my past I had less than positive experiences with a Buick and a Ford, so I am less willing to buy another one. I know others have sworn at Hyundais as well, time will tell how the Azera fares.

    One encouraging sign is that there are several very good large sedans to pick from....that makes the consumer the winner!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    IMO, of course - Hyundai has already gotten to a point where it is a really viable alternative. It is not only the 'American' mfgrs. that need to be keeping an eye in their rear view mirror. Hyundai's problems have more to do with a 'Korean' car stigma and less to do with the acutal qualities of things like the Sonata and Azera. If those cars prove out, the "Detroit style" resale values should not be nearly as severe, making them an even better value.
  • mike91326mike91326 SoCalMember Posts: 251
    I hate to say it but GM and Ford could learn a thing or two from Hyundai. Ten years ago Hyundai was a laughing stock but then they offered a 10/100 warranty and greatly improved their quality. Today nobody is laughing; in fact I bet a few people at GM and Ford are crying.

    You would have thought that they would have learned the error of their ways in their dealings with Toyota and Honda in the 80’s and 90’s. There about to experience daja vu with Hyundai.
  • buzz123buzz123 Member Posts: 35
    Since I've had bad luck with GM, I can't bring myself to consider any of their vehicles. Since I don't like the looks of the 300 or Charger, that leaves the Five Hundred as my choice for an "American" car.
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    Has anyone had problems with them? I've heard some cars have anti siphoning gas tanks. Does anyone know which cars have them?
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    The engine, of course. I think is the most important part of a car. The best are refined and work well with its transmit ion. Is it quiet, responsive, and reliable?

    Which sedan has the best engine here? Chevy Impala has 3 that can fit in this forum.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    If you wanted the best ingress/egress, you should've tried the Ford Five Hundred.
  • loyalbuickfanloyalbuickfan Member Posts: 63
    Captain2 and Buzz123, genuinely prefer the Japanese Avalon.
    I prefer the American Buick Lucerne.

    Asking them their favorite American car or me my favorite Imported car, is like asking a person what flavors of ice cream are first on the list of those they don't like!

    However getting beyond this point, I think this forum can give valuable and valid information to the readers about cars that cost the same money. Thanks, for getting it started.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Agreed and probably a lot more than two.
    Korean Companies, often times with some governmental subsidy, do have an advantage in that they can target specific areas of the world economy to compete. The automotive industry is one of them - and take it from someone who has spent some time over there working with these folks - they are industrious and hard working to the point that they somehow feel it is each citizen's responsibility to make their country and companies successful. An attitude I would bet you would have a tough time finding in Detroit. I often wonder how the Japanese and Korean Cos. adjust to the American worker in places like Alabama, Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee, etc.. It apparently works though: Toyota, Honda and Nissan have been producing fine cars in this country for many years now and the net result of Hyundai in Alabama has been an improved Sonata.
    When Hyundai originated the long warranties, the cars certainly needed it. I would guess it cost the company a pretty penny. It wouldn't surprise me that Hyundai may have lost a bunch of money in the process.
    I would contend that given a choice between a car with lengthy warranties vs. one with shorter warranites that is never in the shop - most folks would take the latter. This would be one reason why I drive a Toyota and not a BMW.
    Toyota and Honda, in particular (Nissan has been making great strides) have the enviable position of being able to sell products based on historical and perceived qualities, they do not have to discount much and consequently can continue to make better and better cars with a foreign substance (in Detroit at least) - called profits. Hyundai, on the other hand, is on a campaign to put as many American fannies in a Hyundai as possible - ever wonder why you are beginning to see so many Sonatas as car rentals. They also will discount that Azera, IMO at $29k loaded, a car based on its merits, is probably worth sticker. As far as Hyundai is concerned, a means to gain some market share that Detroit is handing them and also to live down those early years.
    Detroit continues to 'buy' business and will continue to lose gobs and gobs of cash, the Japanese continue to 'earn' their business and are making a fortune, and the Koreans are somewhere in between. Until that Chevy dealer down the street starts getting folks in there that just have to have that new Impala because it is a truly superior, innovative car and not because there is a $5000.00 discount on it, expect the situation to worsen. Many years ago, Detroit new car introductions were an event, something that people got excited about. Except for a few minor exceptions, when was the last time anybody looking to buy a car was excited about going off to see the new 'American' cars.
    Fully expect that we taxpayers will soon be funding a not so little 'subsidy' for GM, much in the same we did for Chrysler awhile back. And, incidentally, that the French government did for Nissan (thru Renault). Chrysler did, of course, pay back its 'loans' thanks to the minivan and the SUV craze, Nissan and Carlo Ghosn took the $5 billion of French money, and made one of the greatest turnarounds in automotive history. So all is not necessarily lost for GM and Ford (to a lesser extent), but it will hurt, particulary in the upper Midwest. Better do something quick, however - the American brands are rightfully losing tons of market share and the Chinese are waiting at the door to out-Hyundai Hyundai.
  • amandableamandable Member Posts: 2
    Only the Impala 3.5l can use E85. I've heard the Five Hundred will have a hybrid version around 2010, but I think it's only an assist. Any of the other cars looking toward the future? Because gasoline running cars aren't in the future! Maybe the Avalon since their is already a very successful Camry hybrid? I've heard they are selling like hotcakes and for MSRP, too!
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    I like to think I'm unbiased but either the Japanese products aren't as great as others make them out to be or I just don't see it. I wasn't offered a look at an Azera but the Sonata was too small. I missed the '07 Camry by about two months but the '06 was so plain and boring, along with being a snug fit, I couldn't go for it either. The Maxima is simply overpriced.

    I drove a rental Lucerne a few months back and liked it a lot, even with its "ancient" engine and transmission. I am very much into new technologies but I can also appreciate thoroughly refined older technology. I think many are hung up with having the latest/greatest designs regardless of their actual value. I don't argue that the Japanese powertrains are more technologically advanced. But, I don't think that alone makes them the best choice for everyone.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    that is ludicrous - guess you would contend that Magnavox, Sylvania, RCA are 'American as apple pie'. No, just cheap brands primarily made in China.
    If you are really interested in supporting our economy, which is great, then you had better to do some research in where exactly your Buicks come from as opposed to some perceived 'import' brand. You will find out in many cases that 'import' is putting more money back into our own economy than that 'domestic'. While the Japanese and Koreans open plants in this country, the US mfgrs. are closing plants and moving to Mexico and Canada - GM is opening plants in China to produce - BUICKS! So who is hurting this country more: Buick/GM/Ford/Chrysler moving out or Japan/Korea inc. moving in? The Lucerne, in particular, still (apparently) made in the USA with US made parts and labor just like the Avalon is, the Lacrosse in Canada. Does that make the Lacrosse an import?
    Or maybe you just don't like names ending in a vowel?
    And if I'm going to spend $30000.00 on a bowl of ice cream you had better believe that is going to taste better than any other flavor (IMO, of course).
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    No one is saying that the imports are the best choices for everyone. Some likes the Japanese, some likes the germans and some likes the domestics. However, one cannot argue against that by comparing domestic products to their import counterparts the later are often more technologically advanced. It is very frustated (at least to me) to see that such a brand new product like Lucerne is nothing but new sheet metals on top of an old engine, transmission and platform. That IMO is the biggest problem with the domestics.
  • loyalbuickfanloyalbuickfan Member Posts: 63
    This is supposed to be a fun & entertaining discussion.

    Ludicrous,Webster: Laughable,Ridiculous.

    No, I was not Ludicrous. I was merely trying to point out to the originator of this forum, that when he/she solicits opinions, it may help to "stay on track' keeping in mind that persons known preferences.
    Therefore,to ask opinions of people as to what they do not care for, may be of little value to the readers.

    I think this makes sense.

    I do not care where Lucerne is made or what percentage of it it's parts are made in America, or Foreign made or where it is assembled.

    I like the car for many reasons, and I did test drive Avalon and Azera before I bought Lucerne.

    I do respect your opinion as to the car you prefer.

    The point I was trying to make was that if luvmbooty was asking your opinion of your favorite "American" car that it was a moot point at best, because you prefer other brands known as Toyota,Hyundai etc.,etc, and that's OK.

    A person is generally enthused or even passoniate about something they believe in.

    So when luvmbooty asked us about "American Brands" I understood he/she to ask us about about names like, Chevy,Buick,Ford,Chrysler,Mercury,etc,etc,.

    I just tried to clarify the questioning of the readers like
    you,who prefer brands like Toyota. I did not want to anger
    anyone or appear 'ludicrous'.

    I test drove the Avalon as well as Azera. I test drove Lucerne. Lucerne was my choice,I bought this car .

    It's America, what a Great Country!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    loyalbuickfan, so did you choose the Lucerne based on its superiority over the Avalon and Azera or because of your loyalty over Buick?

    Since you test drove all 3 cars why don't you tell us what makes you favor Lucerne over the other 2 models.
  • loyalbuickfanloyalbuickfan Member Posts: 63
    It's time to put loyalty aside when paying nearly $30,000 of our hard earned money.

    I think we should logically choose the car that matches our particular needs.

    I will soon post the reasons as to why I bought the Buick Lucerne.
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    When I asked the original question, my purpose behind it was to try to get people to chime in about the Chevy Impala or Chrysler 300 or Dodge Charger of Ford Five Hundred or in an off way about the Amanti.

    These sedans have either barely been mentioned or not mentioned at all. When I started this forum I wanted to include all the large cars so they could be scrutinized by many minds and might help people with a not so high budget purchase the best large car for them.

    As for asking Captain2 and Buzz123, at the time, they were giving the most input to the forum and I just wanted their opinions. Sorry if anyone thought it was MOOT but I just wanted to keep the flow of posting going. I, personally, didn't mean to offend anyone. If I did, I apologize.

    Like I've stated before, I personally, like all cars in this forum but the Amanti because of style. I just want to get opinions about all, good and bad, not just a few.

    Unfortunately, lately I've started to believe that unless the large cars in the very near future start using other alternative fuel sources there will be no future for them. What does anyone think, within the next 5 to 10 years, gas prices will be like? When will it double or even quadrouple? I think it's logical it WILL happen because of limited gasoline supply going down and the amount of cars on the road going up! Useage going up! The old supply and demand. I hate to see 6 cyliders go bye, bye but it looks like, like the dinosaur, it's doomed to extinction. :confuse: :sick: :cry:
  • grantggrantg Member Posts: 1
    I just traded in my 4door explorer at Tustin Mitsubishi and they qouted me the trade in price on a 2door which was $2000k less. I have a copy of the bluebook printout and just checked it at home against the website and see that they have used false information.

    I have traded in the car but I am going to go back to the dealer tomorrow basically wanting to be reimbursed for the shady deal.

    Do you think we have any rights as consumers or just are the victim of yet another shady car salesman??
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    did you miss the point - the Camry/Avalon, Accord, Altima/Maxima are every bit as 'American' as your many of your Buicks/Chevys/Fords/Chryslers and in many cases more so. The truly 'American' car of any brand a thing of the past, with very few exceptions. Did you know, for example that that bastion of Americana, the Mustang, tips the scales at a whopping 60% domestic content (engines, I believe are made in Mexico) that 'Japanese' Avalon well over 90%. And, if as good Americans we should support those products that best support us, the 'import' makes seem to be doing a better job of that as well.
    So when somebody asks me what I think is the best American car in this particular category, the answer is the Avalon because it is about as close to a truly 'American' car as you can buy these days and I know that a very large portion of the money I paid stays in this country.
    My previous 5 personal drivers BTW, Chevrolet Suburbans - the type of vehicle that the 'domestic' manufacturers are genuinely good at building.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Have a look at the list of discussions on the Smart Shopper board. You should see a suitable one where you can ask this question.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hey guys, that's not what we're here to debate. We're talking about the cars themselves, the things we like and don't like about each. The foreign vs domestic wars take place over in Automotive News & Views. ;)
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