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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • fordenvyfordenvy Member Posts: 72
    Hyundai is not a transplant automaker like Toyota I think the number of US parts used in a Hyundai is around 15%, where Toyota is around 75%. I would not buy Hyundai or include it in research because it still truely is an import, and those are not American jobs we are supporting. Where Toyota I would buy if the price was right.
    Why Toyota uses so many US parts in their vehicles because they are affraid of political backlash, for being an import manufactor and taking American jobs away, so they build most of their vehicles in the US with US parts makers.
    But I must also say that Hyundai is the best bang for the buck, but I think it is not the way we want the country to go.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmm...there are Hyundai vehicles being built in America. Hyundai has one plant in full operation already, with a second one being planned. Yes, they are now a transplanted company like Toyota and Honda. All three have corporate offices overseas, but the also have offices here in the states as well.

    However, it's still the best warranty offered in America...a claim that GM states, as well as Mitsubishi. It doesn't matter the % of parts in the car that are foreign or domestic, it's about claiming the BEST warranty offered in America. I'm sorry...GM's warrany simply isn't the best warranty offered.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Talk about short-sighted. And I suppose you don't think outsourceing is a problem, either?

    A warranty is only as good as the company that backs it and Hyundai is famous for trying every trick in the book to keep from actually having to do major work on the cars when stuff does break. That, plus the amount of foreign parts AND the unwillingness to transfer the full remainder of the warranty for free to the next owner like every other maker just is too much to swallow.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The 5 yr/60k miles bumper to bumper warranty that DOES transfer is better than most other warranties whether or not they transfer. The extra powertrain coverage for the original owner up to 10 years/100k miles is well beyond what most other warranties offer to their original or subsequent owners too. And Hyundai does not charge you a deductible for each repair like some do.
    If you want the full warranty, buy your Hyundai new.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    That's a poor excuse. I could buy a used 2007 Chevy Aveo - their least expensive car - and get 80K or so left on the drivetrain warranty. I shouldn't be dinged because I'm not the original owner. Either they stand by their warranty fully or they are playing games with me.

    Imagine if Craftsman had a original owner only(please present receipt!) "lifetime" warranty on its tools. It would leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth after decades of it being a true lifetime warranty. Cars are no different. GM stands by its warranty until the very last day no matter if its been sitting on the lot as a demonstrator or if you're the 6th owner in three years.

    Now, with their 100K drivetrain warranty, it more than gains parity with Hyundai.

    As for American content, I don't care what company it's from - where it's built is the big deal. Considering how GM and many other companies aren't even posting profits, the reality is that it just negates the part where the company is headquartered(can't pay taxes on negative profits, afterall) Where the plant is and where the raw materials come from is a big deal by comparison. It takes billions a year to run a typical plant, and that's all money going into the local economy in hundreds of ways.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    and why are you following so close? The old 1 car lengthfor every 10 mph would keep youfrom hitting them.

    I'm not . . but plenty of others are.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Will you be satisified with a less powerful 3.0L motor in the Taurus? I wouldn't be!

    Good grief. It's bad enough when you call the 3.0 in the Five Hundred "underpowered" . . but at least realize that the new Taurus will have a more powerful 3.5L. Sheesh! :P
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    It had notably less power than the competition without any benefit of increased fuel efficiency. Not competetive.
    If it had the least power, but also had the highest fuel economy by some good margin, then there would be many people who would be willing take that compromise.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Feh? Is that some more new internet lingo, like meh was a few years ago?

    Hyundai only had that transferable 10 year/100k mile powertrain warranty for 5 years (1999 through 2003), not for decades like Craftsman. And Craftsman tools were/are expensive compared to many others, unlike Hyundai cars. For Hyundai, it was good marketing to get more people buying and driving Hyundais, new and used. For Sears, it was more tradition and motto, part of the brand's name and an excuse to keep charging a lot for the tools.

    Hyundai has 67% more bumper to bumper coverage in months and miles than Aveo. Aveo 36/36k and Hyundai 60/60k. And it is all transferable.
    Aveo has 67% more powertrain coverage in miles only than Hyundai for subsequent owners.
    Aveo has a powertrain warranty of only 5 years to Hyundai's 10 years, both for the original owner.
    Subsequent owners of either car are covered for the powertrain up to 5 years from original in service date, Hyundai limited to 60k miles, Aveo limited to 100k miles.

    As a new car purchase the Hyundai warranty is much better.
    As a used car purchase with over 60k miles, the Aveo has better coverage.
    As a used car purchase with less than 40k miles the Hyundai coverage is probably more attractive to most people.
    As a used car purchase with 40k to 55k miles most would probably say it's a toss-up.

    Chevrolet.com will not even compare its warranty to Hyundai on its website, no doubt because Hyundai's looks SO MUCH better.
    http://www.chevrolet.com/warranty/
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    It had notably less power than the competition

    And barely noticeable differences in acceleration times. Hmmm, are you after POWER, or acceleration?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yeah, for those of us who can't tell the difference in performance between a 3.0 liter Ford 500 and a 270 HP Toyota Avalon, why pay the difference for the Avalon?
    The bad thing is that if you ever need that extra (unnoticeable) performance to get you out of trouble, and you are in the Ford, you are SOL.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I think you really need the next generation 330 hp engine . . why would you want to drive that underpowered 270hp POS . . . you might need that extra power some day to save you from trouble. :P

    Perhaps trouble you wouldn't have gotten yourself into if you weren't counting on that HP. ;)
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Correct!
    The more horsepower, the better!
    (until the money or credit runs out)
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Well, there you have it, folks. The Avalon is underpowered! :P
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yeah, all cars are underpowered. So?
    We all have to make compromises in life, right?
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    The Magnum was released in late 2004 as a 2005 model.
    It's not 5+ years old but 3 years old.


    OK...I guess it just seems like it's been around a lot longer. I still stand by my statement that Daimler sucked what little life Chrysler had left out of it. :P
  • fordenvyfordenvy Member Posts: 72
    ******The 2007 Avalon's 3.5 gets 268HP. MPG = 22/31. 0-60, 6.4 sec. msrp-$26875.
    *******The 2008 Taurus' 3.5 gets 263HP. MPG = 20/28. 0-60, n/a yet.. msrp-$23245. (I estimate 0-60 to be 6.5 area)
    *The 2007 FiveHundred' 3.0 gets 203HP. MPG = 21/29. 0-60, 8.1 sec. msrp-$23035.
    That is according to the old EPA measurements.
    This should set a lot of people straight.

    So the big question is would you pay $3500 more for 2.5MPG better? No.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Oh yeah?
    Real actual data is argued about a lot in here. Have you noticed that?
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Feh (interj.)
    Indicates disapproval or displeasure: Feh, don't touch that dirty thing.

    (Yiddish dictionary)

    It's a real term. I used to have neighbors from New Yrok and picked it up from them.
    ***

    My point is still valid. GM - what you see is what you get. And, honestly, GM's hardware and such either it breaks quickly and is fixed(initial gremlins) or it lasts a decade. I can't remember the last time I saw a window fail on me in a GM car that wasn't at least 10+ years old.

    I just don't like their new warranty. It's clearly a marketing gimmick. Good if you buy new, but otherwise, forget it - buy a used Pontiac or Ford Focus.

    As for Craftsman, the fact is that they are really tough to actually break. And they go on sale quite often, like GM. Now, they aren't Klein or Mack or some of the tools you can get from Japan, but like GM, they are reasonably priced and last at least a decade or two before they need to be replaced.

    The simple fact is that Hyundai plays games and beats the others mostly on price. It's still not at the level of refinement and quality as the others, but it is getting better.

    My main gripe, though, is that it's *Korean*. This helps us not one bit. 0% of the money that went into making it stays here. Now, they may be building some plants in the future, but right now, the best deals are what's amde in the U.S.

    NUUMI Plant, Freemont, CA. 3 Billion a year in upkeep and money that goes in and ut of it. Union labor. Join venture between GM and Toyota. Buy a car made here and you're definately supporting the U.S. economy.

    http://www.nummi.com/vehicles.php
    Btw - you CAN get Toyota and UAW labor at the same time - :)

    The hilux is the international name for the old Tacoma, btw - the small "Taco" truck.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I just don't see how Hyundai's warranty, the best new car warranty of all of them, is a game being played.
    I'm not sure, but I thought the Aveo is (or at least was) also a Korean car, made by Daewoo, but sold as a Chevy. Daewoo cars do not enjoy a good reputation.

    Here's someone else's internet opinion on that too:
    Most Kalos/Aveos are assembled in the Bupyong plant in South Korea. In Ukraine, Russia and Venezuela, local versions of the Aveo are assembled from CKD. For the Chinese market, Aveos and Lovas are manufactured by Shanghai GM Dongyue.
  • diecast61diecast61 Member Posts: 11
    I had the opportunity to test drive the 2008 Sable as well as the Lucerne, Avalon and 300.

    The Avalon was a way too mushy ride. Just did not feel "secure" in the driver's seat driving twisting and turning roads. The 300 visibility out the front just plain sucked. Power wasn't all that great and neither was the ride. The Buick -- while it had enough get up and go -- the interior styling is still GM -- and looks dated. The Sable with the 3.5 had a significantly noticeable increase in HP compared to the 2005-2007 Montegos (I own a 2005). The handling and suspension were to my taste (stiffer and more responsive) than the Toyota.

    For the money -- and features -- the Sable is a Way better buy - hands down. The only thing I did not like in the 2008 (saw several) were some of the interior color combinations -- they made the interior look cheap.

    Before you bash the 2008 - test drive it -- they have taken the HP / Power issue out of the mix. My only complaint is that they did away with the CVT.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Which version of the Avalon did you drive? The touring model has the stiffest suspension.

    My question is this, how firm of a ride are you expecting from a family touring sedan?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...I would disagree with you there. I've had a few issues that came up that were major repairs when I had my '02 Sonata. My charging system wasn't acting right causing my car not to start from time to time when I would run A/C, wipers, headlights and stereo all at the same time. They replaced the battery 3 times and then ended up replacing the alternator due to a faulty regulator.

    Then, I had a power steering hose burst. Took it in and they replaced it with no problem or hassle in any way.

    I had a small issue with the manual shifting mode on the transmission with down shifts into 2nd gear. Found the problem to be a faulty sensor, they replaced the sensor...again, with no hassle.

    I really think it depends on the dealership you go to. I've got two in my area that I go to that don't give any hassle or problems when you go in with problems on your vehicle. I have heard the horror stories where service departments will try and not honor the warranty by finding some loophole to get out of it. I've actually found the opposite with one of the dealerships I go to...they actually find a way to cover something under the warranty if it falls into a gray area.

    Even by not transferring the remainder of the full warranty to the next owner, the next owner is still getting a good warranty what would rival the warranty of some new cars. What are you talking about? If you paid for the extended warranty and you trade the vehicle in before it actually would have kicked in, cancel it and get your money back.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    So let's see:

    - Bad alternator.
    - Power steering hose burst.
    - automanual had problems with the computers(big surprise anyone? Automanuals have been gremlin breeding pools since day 1)

    The thing is that with most other makes, you won't have to deal with nearly as many repairs. In the end, it's close to a wash economically, but wasting my time at a dealership getting stuff fixed costs me time and money as well since most of my income comes from consulting and freelance work.

    GMs tend to be bland and boring for the most part, but they are very much like a Timex watch. Cheap, reliable, and get the job done. Not much else. A perfect commuter car, especially if bought a year or two used. There's a real reason you see so many GM and Ford trucks being used by people for their work. They run, they work, and they don't generally break as often - or cost as much to fix when they do. The rest? If it has A/C and a stereo, most construction workers are happy.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "I had the opportunity to test drive the 2008 Sable as well as the Lucerne, Avalon and 300"


    May I ask where you drove the Sable? According to the website neither the Sable or Taurus is available yet.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "Toyota is around 75%".

    This is incorrect. Toyota as a whole is nowhere near 75%; neither is the Avalon, for that matter.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    Someone posted around 40% IIRC.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • diecast61diecast61 Member Posts: 11
    Automobile Focus Group sponsored by Ford. You are correct in that is not publicly available.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    well actually in my case a distance won't make any difference as there were parked cars and cars driving next to me.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you got something to support that or is it that you just don't like names that end with vowels?
    Read somewhere that the Avalon was 92% American parts, and, of course, 100% American assembled. The engine (from scratch)is made in Missouri, the tranny I believe in Indiana, I understand that the only parts for it that come in from overseas are some electronic components, and the AC system from Nippondenso. And furthermore those engines and trannies that are 100% US made are exported to Lexus who still assembles in Japan (except for the ES). What I believe to be true - that the Avalon is likely the most 'American' car of this group simply because it uses the most American made parts and employs more Americans during the course of its production. Toyota as a whole? - 75%, of course not, they have plants and markets all over the world - the Avalon on the other hand, designed and built in America, specifically for the American market.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I stand corrected. I went back and looked at the reports - more than 75% for the Avalon.

    As for the brand as a whole, the OP had posted 75% for Toyota, and I just wanted to make the correction.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummm...Pletko...if you count, that was only 3 repairs (in 4 years) and only 2 were mechanical. One was a sensor replacement. Wouldn't say it was a gremlin in the tranny...just a sensor that went bad.

    While having to get a car fixed can be an intrusion upon your normally scheduled life, it is a part of being a automobile owner. Just like being a homeowner, things happen when you would least like them to and you have to deal with it. If you don't like it, get a bicycle.

    There are a lot of "perfect" commuter cars, Toyota & Honda have been producing them for years.

    American trucks have ALWAYS been great, whether they be GM, Dodge or Ford built. Their cars on the other hand...they are cheaper to fix because most backyard mechanics can work on them.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    an interesting conclusion from someone who apparently just got back from a Ford sales seminar, don't you think? Value I guess, is perceived as related to initial purchase price only, which I guess, in this case would likely disqualify the Azera from the sponsored comparison which on a simple initial dollars per feature basis where it certainly has no peers.
    The Five Hundred always was a well designed 'space ship' but also not a whole lot 'tighter' than the Azera or for that matter the non-Touring Avalons. Something that Toyota, in particular, and now Hyundai, have always understood, the American preference for 'soft' and quiet. Now with a real engine - the 'Taurus' might be a whole lot better if and when Ford can produce something other than a few show/test cars for their now infamous sponsored comparisons. It may also be too little too late. I still question the name change, though, because I think if you look up 'rental car' in Roget's I think you will find a picture of a Taurus. Going to be a tough perception for Ford to overcome.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    The Taurus name does have a stigma for being a "fleet" car. However, at least people know what a Taurus is. So many people have never even heard of a 500 (being produced now anyway). I think that what they have done with the car cannot hurt them. The name is instantly recognizable, the new look matches the rest of the line, and the HP ratings are now on par with the rest. Despite all the company car and rental duty Ford sold an awful lot of the Taurus/Sable combo. Having said that when my Avalon is ready to go back in early '09 I will give it a drive, but something tells me that I won't like it more than my Avalon.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    If only Ford had added the magic "Galaxie" to the 500 name it would have been instantly recognizable to anyone who grew up in the 1960's!!! Taurus-smaurus. Beam me up to the Galaxie any day! (Cue the original Star Trek music here)
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Just like being a homeowner, things happen when you would least like them to and you have to deal with it. If you don't like it, get a bicycle.

    There are a lot of "perfect" commuter cars, Toyota & Honda have been producing them for years.

    ***
    I think I'll stick with a "perfect" commuter car instead of compromising.

    You save $1000. I get a significantly better car. Enjoy that warranty while it lasts...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Nope...never been to a Ford sales seminar. I've owned two Fords in my lifetime, the last one being a '92 Tempo GLS. I don't know if I agree with you on the 500 being a well designed 'space ship'. Sitting it in it didn't lend me to day dream of blasting off into outer space on mission to boldly go... ;)

    My Azera on the other hand...yeah, I can blast off into space in that and cruise the galaxy in style! :blush:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Again...name a perfect American commuter car and then explain why none of them have been listed in the top 10 on ANY list!!!

    You save a $1000 and get a significantly better car than what?

    The warranty...it's a lovely thing. I'm spoiled by it to be honest. :blush:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Only problem is...folks from the 60's aren't the only demographic they are after. With Chrysler having the 300, BMW using numeric badging, Mazda using numerics...Ford decided to step away from it's normal thing and take a chance. Boy...it sure seemed to backfire on them.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    If not a space ship the 500 is an interior volume ship.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The perfect domestic commuter car is a 0-2 year used GM. It's cheap, built well, still has a warranty, and yeah it looks like blah, but it's a box to get around in, right?

    Or you can just get a Honda and ignore the whole thing. The trick, of course, is to get the basic models and save as much as you can. ie - an Accord VP makes for a perfect commuter car.
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    an interesting conclusion from someone who apparently just got back from a Ford sales seminar, don't you think?

    I would argue that anyone who is satisfied with the car they ultimately purchased would sing praises for it just as all of us do on here. I wouldn't belittle him as if he was somehow tricked into liking a newer/improved version of a vehicle he already owns.
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/job.aspx?year=2007&make=Buick&model=Lucerne

    But both Lucerne engines are older-style, overhead valve layouts and both Lucerne transmissions—one for each engine—are only 4 speeds. New cars, especially those in the over $25,000 bracket, tend to come with overhead-cam engines with variable valve timing and transmissions with more than only four gears.

    Ann Job the "expert" car reviewer doesn't even know that the 4.6L Northstar V8 is a DOHC engine not a OHV.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    Someone needs to send a comment to MSN about their "expert." She also thinks that a car that doesn't lockup the transmission and slow own if you let off the accelerator completely isn't good either; it's not "European."

    What a hoot.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Old technology is reliable and cheap to fix.
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    Ann Job the "expert" car reviewer doesn't even know that the 4.6L Northstar V8 is a DOHC engine not a OHV.

    Just goes to show bias in the industry. If it isn't Asian-branded, it's crap.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Just goes to show bias in the industry. If it isn't Asian-branded, it's crap.

    Which must be where Hyundai's decades of overwhelming good reviews come from :confuse:

    NOT

    I recently read an article in a well-known car mag (Car and Driver or Motor Trend, I can't remember which). It showed the brand new Altima as having EPA mileage of 23/29 for the 4-cylinder, when in fact it has 26/34 MPG. I guess that makes them automatically biased AGAINST Japanese cars, by your logic, right, quietpro? :confuse:

    They both have wrong information listed, so they both must be conspiring against the auto companies.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    The EPA is changing the way it does its fuel economy tests in order to bring the actual mileage numbers closer to what the average driver can expect. They're going to actually run the air conditioner and drive over 55MPH among other things.
    I wonder if the lower rating cited for the " brand new Altima " is a result of the new testing procedures versus the old procedures.
    IMO the ratings are really only useful in comparing one car to another anyway, but now we won't be able to compare year to year.
    This is like the situation with the horsepower ratings prior to 1972. In that year they went from gross ratings to net ratings. The 1971 Camaro Z28 was rated at 330HP and the 1972 Z28 was rated at 255HP, but was the same engine.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    Lucerne "review" by Ann Job annjo84 and the ISP is hotmail

    Read the review. She seems to think European cars and their engineering are the only way to go. Wonder if she gets out much?

    She doesn't even know there are three levels of suspension, both in control and quality on the Lucerne. Doubt it would help to write her because she sounds like her mind's made up.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I wonder if the lower rating cited for the " brand new Altima " is a result of the new testing procedures versus the old procedures.

    I'm fully aware of the new ratings system. The 23/29 numbers are from the old 2002-2006 Altima 4-cylinder, not the new rating system. The new ratings system still has higher estimates for the Altima than 29 MPG highway (31 or 32, depending on transmission). It was simply a misinformation in the article from not double-checking information, just like the Buick Lucerne article was.

    It is good that you shared that info for those not aware of it, however. To see a full list of what the new ratings system will do to your EPA estimate, click here. The link will take you to the proper section of fueleconomy.gov to search for your car and see what the revised estimates will be.
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