Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

batista

Thanks to Captain here it is:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11447/chrysler-300-touring.html

It shows the 3.5L 300 going to 60 in 7.3 seconds.
The 300 weighs quite a bit more than 300M.
My guess is that the newer 2005+ 3.5L High Outputs are now rated a true 250HP and the 300M may have had the 250 overstated.
Car magazine numbers will vary. Car and Driver usually gets the best numbers. When getting data from Consumer Reports you need to add a full second to the 0-60 figure.
Car and Driver got 5.9 seconds for the 07 V6 Camry and
Consumer Reports got 7.1 seconds. Thats a huge difference.

But in this particular case (3.5L DC)both were tested by Car and Driver which will keep the results accurate.

joe131

Yeah, I knew the 300 C was quick, but my post was more an answer to the guess made earlier by captain 2 that the 300 M was a 6 second car 0-60 mph, which it is not.
My saying the V-8 300 C might do a 6 second run allowed for any time. I did not limit the 300 C to any particular time.
I did limit the 300 M to times slower than the 6 second range.

joe131

Yours does not seem to be a response to my post. Maybe you were responding to someone else.
I was never concerned about the current model 300 with a 3.5 motor. I was not making claims about it or responding to other posts about it. I was responding to posts about the 300 M.
Yeah, Car & Driver (and Road & Track) usually have the quickest times. Motor Trend also gets quick times, but generally don't test so many imports as the other two. Their testers do whatever it takes to get maximum performance. They will torque brake an automatic trans car to get the quickest launch and will dump the clutch at high rpm and forego lift-throttle shifts on a manual car if it will result in a quicker time. They are hard on cars.
Consumer reports drives more gently, not doing any of those extreme techniques, so their times are slower.
The 1/4 mile terminal speed should not vary too much using gentle or drastic launches.
Again, your post, though arguably interesting, was not really responsive to any point I was trying to make.

joe131

Here are more views of (V-8 hemi) 300 C performance:

"The Chrysler 300C can go from zero to 60 mph in just 6.3 seconds. According to Burke Brown, chief engineer for both the 300 and the related Dodge Magnum:
"Chrysler's new rear-wheel-drive architecture transfers hemi power to the pavement. Rear-wheel drive offers improved handling, with the front wheels steering and the rear wheels driving."
http://www.ridedrive.com/05chry-300-0904.html

And, "The 340-horsepower Hemi has to carry 4046 pounds, so it won't run with a Corvette, but it is plenty fast, with a 0-60 time of 6.3 seconds, according to Chrysler."
http://chrysler.jbcarpages.com/300/2005/

joe131

Motor Trend timed the 2006 Chrysler 300 with a 3.5 V-6 at 7.6 seconds 0-60 mph.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0606_fullsize_sedan_comparison/spe- cs_pricing.html

joe131

Might as well mention this one too:
The SRT8 is a big sedan with 56 cubic feet of front passenger space and 51 in the rear. It isn't light at 4212 pounds, but at just below 10 pounds per horsepower the SRT8 will bust through 60 mph in 4.7 seconds on its way to a 13.2-second quarter-mile at 109 mph.
Car & Driver.

dborth

captain2 / joe131: Thanks for the research on the old FWD 3.5 300M. Respectable 0-60 runs at the time. I later added a K&N charger, and while I don't know if it made it quicker, it sure sounded better!

dborth

Thanks for your posts re. the "BH" I too have been tracking this future model and the sketch shown looks pretty nice. I was hoping for more HP in the 8, but this 3.8 / 4.6 combo is obviously aimed to compete with the Infinity "M" series but at "wow" pricing.

My '07 Azera lease expires in 24 months, so I'm licking my chops in anticipation.

alexstore

No and hyundai proves it. Almost all of their cars bare resemblance to other brands. As one hyundai owner said previously- cheap man's benz. from sketch this future car looks like a copy of infinity M. Sonata is a copy of Accord. Common Hyundai, can you make your own designs? Now like i said in one of my previous posts I was helping my MIL with her car and we had a chance to drive both Azera and Sonata. I am sorry to say but both car's interior is at least 2 generations old compared to others. She btw liked Sonata on its short test drive, but interior is way too old. Also 2 dealers we went here in NY sounded like used car dealers.

captain2

as I mentioned in an earlier post, there seems no doubt that C&D is the king of car abuse. Just like the Camry numbers you report. The Avalon, for example, has been tested as low as 6 flat (by you know who) but generally up into the middle 6s by others. The HP rating overstatement may have to do with some SAE rating rule changes that became effective in 2006, that Avalon 'lost' 12 hp but the engine didn't change. So the 300M HP numbers may be slightly overstated depending on when Chrysler adopted the new SAE standards, but honest HP/lb of vehicle weight remains the most accurate forecast of straight line performance.

captain2

the Chinese brands are already out there, some with strange sounding name 'Chery' for example and some with familiar names like Buick. GM does seem to be making a concerted effort to source much of their components over there already. Preliminary reports on the true Chinese cars, show suspect quality and last generation technology - remember the Hyundais of 20 years ago?
This is not unusual these days, if you read this months CR car issue you will find out that the cars most likely to be 'made in the USA' almost all have 'Japanese' names. The most "American" car of this group, BTW, may possibly be the Avalon! A sad commentary on Detroit's inability to produce competitive cars and control their own labor costs.

allmet33

You're right, the ESC does come back on every time the car is turned off and then back on. However, knowing that...you can simply push the button to turn it off if you need it to be off.

I never had the problem in my Sonata as it did not have the system.

I can tell you that there are times I do switch it off in my Azera, but under normal driving conditions it's a very non-invasive system.

allmet33

Well...to a degree you are correct, but something is said for those that take every word literally. Actually using "anyone" isn't an absolute. If I had used "nobody" then I would concede. However, to further explain my use of "anyone"...anyone that I know and have talked to concerning the XG-300/350.

So...while you hang on to the word you read in CR, I go based on what I see and feel for myself. Again, there is nothing about the XG models that says "Limo". Ohhhhhhhh...wait, now I see it. It COULD be a limo for anyone (damn, there goes my use of the word "anyone" again) under 5' tall! :blush:

captain2

allmet - my concerns with ESC more have to do with what I regard as misrepresentations by the mfgrs. (and our own government) selling/requiring these things; they are being promoted in such a way that people think they 'improve' handling and/or a car's avoidance capabilities, and that in believing that people will develop bad habits relying on it.
There is an interesting (from my perspective a 'red flag') article in this month's CR (who, of course seems to favor such things) that talks all about the 'next generation' of these systems - the computer taking control of a car's steering in order to 'help' you avoid something. The Lexus VDIM parking 'assist' one step further.
Too much technology, IMO, too fast and I don't trust it! An entirely non PC persepctive, I guess I must be crazy?

joe131

Yep. I liked those Terminator movies too.

louiswei

Captain, the VDIM and parking assist are 2 totally seperate systems. VDIM is an integrated system that combines ESC, ETC, ABS and etc in order to correct the motion of the car before the accident could happen. Parking assist on the other hand is solely designed to help the driver park the car.

To me the VDIM is a safety feature and parking assist is just a fancy toy. Anyone that couldn't parallel park or back the car into a space shouldn't allow to drive in the first place.

joe131

In Arizona, legally blind people can get a license to drive so long as a normally sighted person sits next to them in the car.
Like a seeing eye dog. It is so anti-discrimination lawsuits won't be brought by the geezers in Sun City.

captain2

yes Louis they certainly are, the VDIM does, however, effect also steering passive sense, slowing those inputs as the 'car' anticipates an accident. I am not sure I want the car 'deciding' when an accident is imminent and then taking control of those same things on the car that might allow me to avoid it. In some states I guess you still have to parallel park to get a license, does this become something that becomes a lost art?

allmet33

captain...with that said, I can agree with you. Too much technology is taking the driving out of our hands. The downside is that it's making folks pay less and less attention to actually driving. The more automated a car becomes, the more a driver can feel like they can do other things...besides drive! I feel that some technologies can enhance the driving experience. Whether it be performance, safety or comfort. However, I do feel that companies go too far with some things.

Personally, I don't think you're crazy at all.

captain2

do they get a 'stand-in' fot the eye test? sure, does sound like TV lawyers though!

joe97

"Sonata is a copy of Accord."

Incorrect. Let's please get the fact straight. The Sonata's design froze before the Accord you referred to came out.

"Azera and Sonata. I am sorry to say but both car's interior is at least 2 generations old compared to others."

Really? I disagree 200% (one for each generation). Maybe to you but there are a lot of satisfied Hyundai owners that like the elegant and uncluttered design. I'd say Hyundai interiors are at least on par with the rest of the class, and to say 2 generations behind is a bit excessive and biased.

gamleged

I'd suggest that the Sonata sales reflect that Hyundai's marketing research picked the right "two generations" to appeal to!...

louiswei

Captain, I think your Avalon comes with the VDIM correct? If you haven't know it yet, there is actually a way to disable the VDIM completely. If you don't know the procedure and would like to find out let me know.

captain2

louis - no my Avalon is not VSC equipped - something that I suspect 'saved' my car and possibly me - a high speed accelerating swerve to avoid a jerk that pulled out in front of me. Don't believe the systems that are in Avalons are nearly as sophisticated (or invasive) as VDIM the Lexus has - and yes, I've read about that convoluted sequence of brake/parking brake applications necessary to shut the thing off - something that nobody in their right mind is ever going to remember or bother with. Toyota and Lexus, in particular, should have enough sense to equip their cars with a simple 'off' switch. If I remember right, you drive an IS350, a true sports sedan with all the power that comes with that and very high handling limits and evasive capabilities. Perhaps the last car that I would want any computer interference on, although logically those intervention levels should be set higher than something less capable in that regard - like an Avalon.

captain2

the Sonata 'sales' figures are grossly inflated by donations made to the airport rental lots, part of a conscious effort on Hyundai's part to get as many American butts into their products as possible.
I did have a chance to drive an 06 Sonata V6 for a couple of weeks, found it a good driving car, with a much better drivetrain than the previous models. A substantial improvement save for the interior design, fit and finish, and relatively weak FE - where do you suppose they got that plastic wood - Jupiter? Ugly, IMO....

allmet33

I truly doubt that, just take a look around you and see how many Sonatas you see on a regular basis now. You see them almost as much as the Camry and Accord these days.

I understand you have this thing against Hyundai, but the fit and finish has recently been regarded as better than that found in Toyota and Honda products.

You are right about the drivetrain being better...they actually started getting it right with the '02 model year.

sandiegan1

If I were going to buy a ~$30k sedan, I would hold out for the G8. 6 Speed, RWD, V8. Can't go wrong with a Corvette sedan.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_news070207_2008_pontiac_g8- /

captain2

I understand you have this thing against Hyundai
I guess you haven't really been reading my posts, then. The Azera and even the Sonata are wonderful accomplishments and are, in most regards worthy of consideration, by those folks that would value those same sort of attributes by any one of the Japan 3. "Detroit" mfgrs. are the ones that ought to look at those cars and wonder why they can't do that.
And I'll differ on the Sonata interior being even close to an Accords/Camrys/Altimas - but the Azera, now that is impressive!

captain2

I truly doubt that, just take a look around you and see how many Sonatas you see on a regular basis now.
if you do a little research, I think you'll find that Sonata sales have nosedived very recently, a good thing because Hyundia apparently realized sending all these cars to Hertz was not good for brand perceptions and/or their bottom line. More Hyundais on the road, sure - and less of them with a green 'E' on the trunk - both of which should mean that Hyundai may finally be getting a handle on that 'Korean' car reputation that continues to plague them.

louiswei

This VDIM discussion is getting off-topic so this would be my last post regarding this issue. Lexus has finally come to its sense and put an "off" switch on the '07 IS350. However, mine's an '06 so I still have to resort to the "brake dance" whenever I want to have a little fun with my car. I am telling you, once the VDIM is off my car behaves totally different, it's almost like I am driving a different car. One thing that bothers me with shutting the VDIM off is that the ABS is also disabled along the process...

Okay, back to the large sedan discussion.