Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

bruneau1

Get the Accord out of this discussion. This is about large cars, like Lucerne, Avalon, Taurus, Impala, Azera over and over again.

tjc78

Priggly...

You must have never driven a 2GR from Toyota. At 5000 RPM you don't even know the engine is spinning. Ask other Avalon, ES350 owners and I don't think that many will doubt what I say. There is no doubt that the 5.3 V8 is a nice engine with more low end torque than my 3.5. However, to put a blanket statement that you can't compare a 6 to an 8 just isn't true. Todays modern V6's are amazing and don't need electronic trickery (DOD) to acheive good MPG.

tjc78

Jimmy2x,

I was really only talking engines... you are right the IS has no place here. I was only using it to show what V6's are capable of today. (BTW wish Yota would drop the more powerful 2GR-FSE in the Avalon)

If you are driving a Camry now I suspect you will like the Avalon. Nice ride, tons of room and great economy for the power and size. My '06 is my 2nd Avalon and 3rd Yota in a row and they have all been fabulous. You mention trunk space as a concern and you may be a bit disappointed there, the Avalon's trunk is not huge. Although, I recently got 3 30" bar stools in mine with no problem.

"Hell, if I had the money I'd buy a Lexus 430"
Ditto

alexstore

sorry Tjc here where I disagree with you. More Torque in lighter vehicle translates to better 0-60 acceleration as well as 30-50.
Power delivery is better and smoother in V8 vs V6

tjc78

You can disagree... I have no problem with that but the days of a V8 being so superior to the V6's is in the past. You should know you have a Maxima with the VQ right?

FWIW the Impala SS is heavier than an Avalon (even the Limited).

derrelhgreen

I disagree. Ever hear of the 231 cu in Turbo Buicks of the '80s? :confuse:

thegraduate

Oh, pardon me. Hosts typically do the monitoring around here (that's their job), and since someone wanted to compare an Azera to a large car (according to the EPA), the Accord, I carried on the conversation. I'll bet you never drive 51MPH in a 50 MPH zone? Lighten up a little. :sick:

No need to be snippy about it, its not like I was talking ONLY about the Accord.

jimmy2x

tjc78

It is certainly a change of pace to have a civil discussion without resorting to the "Mine is better than yours and yours is a POS" mentality that sometimes pervades ALL forums.

FWIW - we haven't even decided yet on whether in will be a sedan or a SUV/CUV type of vehicle. Took my wife by the GMC/Buick dealer this afternoon and she was very taken by the Enclave. I must admit it was absolutely gorgeous and of course it is a V6 .

smithed

All of these you are discussing sound like great cars. What a golden age of automobiles we live in

These things are great, with choices to satisfy so many different wishes. I wish I could try all of these cars out: Avalon, Azera, Maxima, Lucerne, Impala. I'm sure they are all nice. When buying I compared Avalon and 300, didn't look at Maxima, but maybe should have. The Lucerne, Azera, and Impala SS were not available at the time. LaCrosse did not impress the wife and me. The Five Hundred was big and all, but that 3.0 seemed overburdened. I suspect the Taurus with the bigger V6 is nice.

We're liking the C. :shades:

cobrazera

I have to assume that the Chrysler numbers you cite are the SRT8 versions of the 300 and Dodge cars; they are very quick cars, but are low volume vehicles that are thousands of dollars more than the Impala or even the standard Hemi vehicles, for that matter.
The garden variety Hemi cars that proliferate the road run 0-60 in the mid 5s.

tjc78

It should be a civil conversation. We all get a little intense sometimes, but that is what makes it fun. I have my opinions of which vehicles are better and express them quite frequently. Having said that you can't go wrong with almost any car in this discussion. The only one I would stay away from would be the base Impala and I don't know much about the KIA. I haven't driven a Taurus yet, but did drive the 500 and the only thing that car lacked was power. The Taurus seems to have corrected that.

If I were interested in SUVs the Enclave (Acadia too) would definately be on my list.

alexstore

Well jimmy my guess a more powerful engine will be available in the near future for these vehicles. Though GM shares 3.6 in variety of cars/ SUVs, I believe that in a 5000 lb vehicle it is out of place. BTW where were you? I was CUV shopping this weekend too for my wife.

smithed

"I have to assume that the Chrysler numbers you cite are the SRT8 versions of the 300 and Dodge cars; they are very quick cars"

The SRT8s (300, Charger, Magnum, Grand Cherokee) are very quick with those 425 HP 6.1 liter Hemis. A friend traded his 300C for a 300C SRT. The difference: The regular 300C (5.7 liter 340 HP Hemi) has a more luxurious ride, the SRT is more stiffly suspended. He liked the ride in the 300C better, but the SRT is faster and corners better. The SRT versions carry a gas guzzler tax. I would have to say the 300 with the 3.5 liter V6 and the 300C are "mainstream sedans". The SRT is closer to a street legal race car. :shades:

101649

The Chrysler 6 and the small 8's are very anemic...Chevy is going to a gunfight with a knife in the Impala SS..Mainstream sedans are sedans....the only difference is the power, suspension and options...The SS is the top of the line Impala and it pales against the other top of the line "sedans" in the group...it's very much like the "racer boy" Monte Carlo SS...All bark and no bite....

tjc78

While I am the first to knock the Impala for various reasons it is a quick machine. What other vehicle in this group besides the Chrysler will beat it? My Avalon is a couple ticks behind in 0 - 60, I am willing to make that tradeoff because I feel the Avalon is a better all around vehicle. However, to say the SS is "all bark and no bite" is wrong. It will smoke a lot of "sports" cars in a straight line, now when things get curvy that all changes as all that weight on the front wheels isn't good.

allmet33

I'm sorry, you're right...I was thinking of the last Accord.

So the Accord has 5 more ponies, but still...lacks the interior space the Azera has.

louiswei

But the bottom line is...

The Accord was never intended to be an Azera competitor just like even Sonata can be classified as a large car it is not out to compete with other large cars.

Although size is a factor to classify cars but it is not the most important. The most important factor is a car's intended market. Currently Honda is still selling the Accord as a midsizer and aiming straight at the Camry and Altima.

allmet33

You are really making this more difficult than it has to be.

How bout we just end this discussion for the sake everyone is going to have their own point of view and none of them will change reality.

pat

Good idea - let's get back on topic.

louiswei

Actually I was done with this discussion long ago until someone kept bringing up that the Accord is this HP less than the Azera or this cubic feet less than the Azera...

Now I am done.

robbieg

In an attempt to get this back to large cars. Here we go. In this segment, in my opinion the Avalon is the top dog because it so close to being a Lexus. That being said, it is more expensive than some of the other cars and some people just won't/can't pay that much for a car. Next down the list is the Lucerne. I kind of like it, provided it does not have a column mounted shifter and it comes equipped with the chrome rims. That being said, I fell that it is priced a little too high. Next in line is the new Taurus. Again, it may be priced a little too high, but we will have to see how they sell. I have always liked/not been offended by the looks of the 500/Taurus and now with the new engine I think it is a pretty good car. At the bottom of the list is the Impala. If you exclude the SS which in my opinion is in a different category, the Impala is budget transportation. People buy them, at least the people that I know who have them, because they are cheap and big. The wild card is Hyudai Azerra. The reason for this is that some people just won't consider a Hyudai. With all of this in mind, here is my question, will the Taurus steal sales from the Lucerne because it is a pretty nice car and less expensive than the Lucerne? Or are Lucerne buyers, Buick snobs and won't consider a lowyly Ford?

I leave out the Chryler 300 because they were trendy and they are now "out". I am sorry a Maxima buyer won't be caught dead in a Chevy, Ford or Buick.

allmet33

The fact that some people won't consider a Hyundai doesn't make the Azera a wild card. If you actually go take a test drive and compare the Azera with the Lucerne...the Azera wins hands down. The engine on the Lucerene can't even keep up unless you pony up the extra money and get the CXL w/V-8 to compete power-wise. The V-6 in the Lucerne is weak and lethargic (it's not even producing 200 hp). Whereas the V-8 is just producing a bit more than the 263 hp in the Azera. Bottom line...you would have to spend more on a Lucerne to even compete with a fully loaded Azera.





You're right...the SS should be in a different category because it has the V-8. Honestly, it should be thrown in with the 300C/Charger R/T and then you would have to throw the Lucerne CXS in as well, even though it can't hold a candle power-wise to any of them. So...what exactly is the benefit of the Buick???

I will agree that the newer Taurus presents an argument because before, the biggest complaint was the lack of power (Hhhmmmmmmmmmm...maybe Buick needs to take heed of this one). Now that the V-6 powerplant is more in line with all the other offerings in it's class...the Taurus stands to do better. Maybe...if Buick did the same thing with the Lucerne and gave it a stronger V-6 powerplant...you wouldn't even be asking this question.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Lucerne hater, I actually considered one before I bought my Azera. However...the Azera won me over with the substantial power over the Lucerne, not to mention the warranty (I plan on keeping it for a very long time). I just didn't want to pay $30K+ on a Lucerne to get what I paid $26K for on my Azera.

tjc78

Buick has a following and I seriously doubt that the Taurus will pull that many sales from the Lucerne. I just don't see someone driving an older Park Av or LeSabre going over to the Taurus/Sable unless they want AWD.

tjc78

"Maybe...if Buick did the same thing with the Lucerne and gave it a stronger V-6 powerplant...you wouldn't even be asking this question"

I'd like a buck for everytime I have said that here. :confuse: Put the 3.6 6 speed and be done with it!

robbieg

I consider the Azerra to be a wild card because you have to think outside of the box to buy one. Let me try to explain. Hyundai is not one of the big brands. I consider Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota and maybe Chrysler to be the big makes. Other makes, VW, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, etc. are, for the lack of the better term, wild cards.

For what it's worth, I do not disagree with you on the strength of the Azerra, especially when you consider price. If price weren't a factor, I am sure most people would be driving an Avalon. For the most part the Hyundai Azerra wins buyers over by being a good value in comparison to their competitors. (people buy Sonatas and Sante Fes for the same reason) When you looked for a new car, you had an open mind and considered a Hyundai and bought a Hyundai because it was a better buy price-wise. It is my opinion, that public perception trails reality by a couple of years. Basically, the general public thinks Honda and Toyota are the benchmarks in quality and resale value. It is for this reason that buyers are willing to pay a premium for these cars. First, it is tough to dispute that the Honday and Toyota models don't have better resale values than Hyundai and the American makes. Second, the general public has not acknowledged the gains made by Hyundai and the domestics manufacturers and it is because of this that some, not all, shoppers won't consider a Hyundai.

smithed

"I leave out the Chryler 300 because they were trendy and they are now "out"."

Here are the top 10 selling sedans for May, 2007: (X means not a large sedan!)

Only the Impala, Charger, and 300 qualify as this forum's mainstream sedans: It should also be noted that fleet sales for Chrysler were down for that month, so don't attribute it all to Hertz, Avis, and Enterprise. :shades:

We'll have to see how the Taurus does in the future listings.

X1. Toyota Camry May 2007 Sales: 43,273

2. Chevrolet Impala May 2007 Sales: 35,665

X3. Honda Accord May 2007 Sales: 31,476

X4. Nissan Altima May 2007 Sales: 23,159

X5. Ford Fusion May 2007 Sales: 14,279

X6. BMW 3 Series May 2007 Sales: 13,930

7. Dodge Charger May 2007 Sales: 13,463

X8. Pontiac Grand Prix May 2007 Sales: 12,230

X9. Hyundai Sonata May 2007 Sales: 12,147

10. Chrysler 300 May 2007 Sales: 11,687

robbieg

In an attempt to clarify my "trendy" comment. Chrysler tends to take bigger styling risks than GM or Ford. This is probably a good thing. However, in my opinion the downside is that their designs don't hold up as well. For example look at BMW's and Audi's, their designs evolve and you can always tell a BMW is a BMW and an Audi is an Audi. The same can not be said for a Chrysler. Basically, Chrysler takes bigger risks which I equate to being "trendy". Unless Chryler quits taking risks, and I am not saying that they should, their designs, in my opinion, become stale quicker as a car progresses in the model cycle than other cars.

I guess that the sales figures for most cars over their model run trend downward. I am just guessing that the sales figures for the Chrysler 300 (both the current model and the prior 300m) trend down a little quicker due to its cutting edge/ trendier design.

In short, the 300 made a splash when it was launched but it no longer makes the same splash.

allmet33

Actually...what opened my mind was my 2002 Sonata that I purchased after my 96 Camry got totalled. Camry...was a great car, can't complain about it in any way. The Sonata...I was leery at first, but within the 1st year of ownership...I was impressed. 4 years and 105K miles later...it was traded in for my Azera. The fact of not having a single problem with my Sonata definitely had me looking at Hyundai for the next purchase.

I understand what you're saying about the wild card thing. If Hyundai keeps on raising their own bar towards the likes of Honda and Toyota, it won't be long before Hyundai is thrown in with those two in casual conversation.

However, for a lot of the general public to not think highly of Hyundai products...there sure are a lot of them on the roads right now (the Azera & Veracruz not withstanding).

jaymagic

While I am thrilled with my Azzy, I would have looked at the Taurus and its AWD, if it had been around when I was looking. If I could have bought "American", I probably would have. Since my first car was a 59 Ford and the second a 65 Mustang, I have been a FoMoCo guy for 50 years.

I would have wanted just a few more ponies in the Taurus, but it definitely would have gotten a look. But, in the end, I think the Azera just has too much to offer. Like others, my first "non luxury" choice night have been another Avalon, but the difference in price just was too big for the slight advantage.

101649

I would be willing to bet that lesss than 20% of the Impala's sold are "SS's".....Most are the small 8 and 6 variety.....Less that 12% of the Mustangs sold are GT's

thegraduate

What "smaller" V8 are you referring to?

I thought the engines in this generation Impala were the:

3.5L 211hp V6
3.9L 233hp V6
5.3L 303hp V8

richdag

For the most part the Hyundai Azera wins buyers over by being a good value in comparison to their competitors. (people buy Sonatas and Sante Fes for the same reason) When you looked for a new car, you had an open mind and considered a Hyundai and bought a Hyundai because it was a better buy price-wise.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe you just described, "DUH"

Rich in FL.

tjc78

LOL!!!!

101649

You are correct...As before, less that 20% are SS's
Even the 3.9 Flex Fuel model is anemic for that size of car.

Also remember...no ABS, no stability control, no traction control and only 4 airbags....

scbob

"If price weren't a factor, I am sure most people would be driving an Avalon." Not necessarily so. Same for Santa Fe and Sonata.
Price was not a factor for me. I narrowed it to Lexus ES 350, Infiniti G35, Acura TL, Avalon Ltd and Azera Ltd. Took me six months, much research and many test drives to decide, but I always came back to the Azera. I had a Camry XLE V6.
The Avalon did not have as much or you had to get optional packages, limiting selection and further increasing the price. Also, the ride was no better and the interion and exterior leave a lot to desire.
The ES 350 was better, but still just a Camry with more high priced luxury items on it. Still got more luxury and safety that I wanted from the Azera.
Actualy, the Lexus GS 350 was the only vehicle I thought was comparable to the Azera for what I needed, but not worth $50,000 especially when looking at the reviews and reliability.
You are right that many people will not consider a Hyundai or some other makes that are really good. I know people who will not buy anything other than American makes, even though they have more problems with them.

allmet33

It's nice to see someone that actually had some premium vehicles in mind while also considering the Azera. My aspirations weren't as high. I looked at the Avalon (price kept me at bay on that), the Lucerne ( the V-6 was terribly weak and I didn't want the CXS V-8 which also carried the price tag), and the Ford 500 which offered all the room I could want and ever need, but like the Lucerne, had a weak V-6. If I had waited till the upgraded Taurus came out, it would have posed a more intriguing look considering the engine is now up to par AND it offers AWD. Not quite sure how it would have priced out for me, but all in all...I'm very happy and satisfied with my Azera. Even though it doesn't have AWD, FWD is plenty good in the DC Metro area come winter time. Not to mention, my other vehicle is a Saturn Outlook so when the snow hits the ground...I'm covered.

alexstore

you said nothing about TL and if price was not a factor for me, my choice will be Infinity M.

allmet33

The TL gives up too much in size in comparison to any of the cars in mentioned in this forum. If price weren't a factor, then another option would be the RL.

Alexstore, there is one piece of machinery we agree on. I certainly would plant myself in an Infinity M as well. That is one beautiful piece of machinery there!!! They need an emoticon that drools for situations like this! LOL

louiswei

The Avalon did not have as much or you had to get optional packages, limiting selection and further increasing the price.

Didn't you just say that price wans't a factor for you?

:confuse:

louiswei

If price wasn't a factor I'll pick the 5-series over the M in less than a heartbeat.

535i, hmmm......

(drooling right now)

allmet33

If I were take a Bimmer...it would have to be the 7-Series. Talk about moving a family around with power and grace!!! If I were single...then I'd take a 6-Series in a second.

bhmr59

Well, if you want the performance/luxury item known as a "dipstick", you don't want a 3 series or a 5 series.

dborth

"known as a "dipstick"

While several people here may resemble that remark, your point is well taken. The "Ultimate Driving Machine" oops!

101649

This is probably old, but BMW= Big Money Wasted....Quality is falling along with Mercedes...tranny problems ...engine problems....definitely the Germans are overpriced...

floridabob1

RE: 3093
Have you driven a new BMW recently?
Not too shabby to my taste.

cobrazera

I wouldn't call 233HP anemic, the GLS Azera has about the same HP, and the 2LT Impala ( $25K list, and certainly much less real world ) does have ABS, stability control, traction control, side bags, etc.

I would never consider buying an Impala, but only due to it's low rent interior and lo-tech 4 speed auto.

BTW, what's the reason for the flex fuel anyway? E85 is not widely available and if you do use it, your mileage drops by 20-30% due to the lower energy content compared with gasoline. Lower carbon emissions?

cobrazera

my choice will be Infinity M.
Oh, yes. That was my thought when the discussion here turned to the SRT8 version of the Chrysler 300. That car, including the gas guzzler tax is $2K more than an M35 Infiniti.

101649

Azera is @ 263 BHP; recheck your facts on the ABS,Stability, etc for the Impala...the SS model is slated to receive these items NEXT year..

101649

Not talking about "shabby" here...Multiple quality problems with the drive trains of both brands, especially in Europe...They are both nicely appointed vehicles, but I-Drive had to go...M cars and the AMG's are top of the line, but each motor is hand assembled, etc...Inflated pricing ....

allmet33

He was talking about the GLS model of the Azera with the 3.3 V-6, producing 234 hp.

The SS has to wait another year to receive ABS, ESC, ets...the lowest model Azera has it already.