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There is no car that I wouldn't consider. If I lived where it snowed, I would probably prefer FWD of AWD, but other than that, not much to keep me from considering anything.
Money isn't an issue, and she'd buy anything I told her to (which is scary). She has her first dime though, so I'm trying to find the best deal. Her being a Ford lady originally led me away from Hyundai and to Ford. The Taurus, other than its large size in general, looks to be a good choice for her. Her car has had 3,500 miles put on it since July, and more than half of those have been me driving her.
I've never negotiated a car deal at my young age; I'd do it with the help of my great-aunt (my grandmother's sister - who happens to be interested in the Taurus X and Edge). My grandmother is the type who would get taken pretty easily (an avid Home Shopping watcher, if you know what I mean).
Maybe you just assumed she wouldn't be interested in the Azera. Unless she has said otherwise, why not take her for a look/ test drive of the Azera?
She may or may not prefer it to the Ford, but it's worth a look.
He's given me quotes twice, three months apart. Both were lower than any competing dealership in Birmingham that responded to my requests (one never responded to my request after two emails - I made sure that Ford knew about it in a consumer survey asking about my inquiry to that dealer). They lost a customer that day!
I imagine the throttle response on the Taurus is actually calibrated to be slower than that of her 4-cyl Accord off the line. Floor them both and the Taurus will run away, but I would think it'd be pretty soft in the first 30% of pedal travel. Can anyone comment?
Thus, I'm looking at Ford, Nissan, and Chevrolet (Chevy doesn't impress me, and I refuse to look at Dodge). All of those makes of vehicles are within a mile of the Ford dealership at which we are looking.
Our next step is a test-drive. For now I'm just going to be price shopping.
You are correct that the throttle tip-in is conservative. It is very smooth easing around town. I can also assure you that if you put your foot in it from a dead stop, and have the traction control off, it will lay rubber about half way through first gear. This car is plenty quick - deceptively so. It is also extremely quiet and smooth. Now that we have a couple of thousand miles on ours, it is noticeably quicker than when we first test drove it.
Dealers in the Midwest advertise SELs for under $20,000. I was In Des Moines last weekend and Gabus Ford had an ad for around $19,300. We paid about $500 more than than in Minneapolis but they installed body side moldings for free. I thought these cars were an awesome value before I bought one. Now, I am even more convinced!
Haven't been in a new Maxima...is it the same as the '06? If so, I'm guessing it's low to the ground entry/exit might be inconvenient for her. In March, '06 we had a rental Maxima and got kissed in the rear when in a traffic jam outside Phoenix. Kissed hard enough to push the trunk lid into and blow out the rear window, made both right doors unable to open, L/R door opened but wouldn't close. Got pushed 2 car lengths into the car in front of us with enough force to set off the air bags and then spun from the center lane into the (desert) median. We only had minor cuts. So, I'd have to save, at least in this type of collision, that the Maxima was a very safe car.
Have you test driven the Veracruz? Very nice indeed...I drove one after we bought our Outlook. The only things that kept us from getting the Veracruz was that it didn't offer captain's chairs in the 2nd row and the space behind the 3rd row seat wouldn't accomodate a full-sized stroller. Other than that...it's a very excellent option for those looking for a full-sized SUV. I think anyone would be truly surprised if they get in one and drive it.
at this point and according to that CR 08 Auto issue - the Avalon and the Maxima are the only cars in this group that manage to be 'recommmended', 'checked' and circled'. Meaning that the car tested is at least average in reliability, AND has met requirements for accident avoidance and safety (crash test) results.
My understanding is that the 08 Maxima has been upgraded significantly interior wise (more befitting the cos. flagship perhaps) and, of course it does have that VQ V6 arguably the best V6 of all time. The 09 Maxima is supposed to be completely new and it wouldn't surprise me to see it with changing enough to differentiate it further from the Altima - my own wish would be some slightly decontented M35 clone RWD and all, dropping the CVT, and using the 300hp+ 3.7 VQ. I would be standing in line to get one.
I posted in the past a possible pic of 2009 Maxima but only time will show if I was correct. Also I am not sure about 2nd version of CVT but in its first version Auto beats CVT in performance tests and loses in FE.
Now since Azera is getting more power, my guess Maxima will retain 3.5 but have 290+ hp and DI. Avalon is likely will get more power as well.
the curse of the car nut - if you are first and I am second in line - the chances are we are both paying a premium for what ought to be a premium car. I really really like the Ms but a couple of years ago the M35 was going to be in the low 40s -minimal options - was selling at sticker and more than I wanted to spend. So I bought the Avalon instead which was 10 grand cheaper but was also selling at close to sticker at the time.The curse of the car nut? If you understand what is truly good in a vehicle - chances are so does everybody else!
My most recent out the door, no-haggle quote for a base Taurus SEL is $21,368.48. This includes all taxes (I think they were a little more than $800) and fees.
So, pre-tax, the deal would be around $20,500 including destination (I don't know if your deals included that or not?)
I won't go so far as to say the Taurus is the best car on this board. I will say I think it is the best value, if its attributes are what the buyer is looking for. Room and trunk space are second to none. The driving experience is far more refined than an Impala or Charger V6. The Lucerne V6 is a nice car with a boat anchor under the hood and the V8 version costs a lot more. The Taurus may lack the absolute mechanical refinement of the Avalon but it costs a lot less. It is not as sporty as a Maxima, but, again, it costs less. I haven't driven an Azera so I can't comment about it.
It comes down to what buyers value most in a mainstream sedan. The choices are many and most of them are good.
I really disagree here. The way I see it, the large sedan selection (25K to 35K) really isn't all that expansive. The Impala is barely a full size, the current Maxima is outclassed by the Altima, the 300/Charger is a gimmick (HEMI) with a pitiful interior, surviving mostly on fleet sales (actually, probably a statement for Chrysler in general) The Lucerne while very nice needs a modern V6. That leaves 3 solid choices Azera, Avalon and Taurus.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
That would be nice, like I said above right now I don't see the point in buying a Maxima over Altima. There is very little more interior room and the Altima seems to have it beat everywhere else.
BTW if Nissan builds the car you describe, I'll be in line too
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Maybe. But bought my '05 300C for under $30K in Sept. 04 and Kelley currently lists its retail value at $25K. This gimmick appears to have an incredibly low depreciation rate.... 0-60 in under 6 seconds, 20mpg average, and zero problems in 3 years. REALLY a terrible car.....
According to KBB, 2005 300C with 45,000 miles has a private party value of $21,955 with excellent condition. With good condition the value is $20,665.
I don't know what the MSRP for a 300C was back in 2004 but right now a base 300C RWD with NO option is listed as $36,070. Looks like you got a heck of a deal for a first year (2005 is the first MY for the 300) brand spanking new 300C. Maybe you should share your dealer with us...
Best value does not necessarily mean cheapest - both the Taurus and the Azera figure to finish high on this 'value' basis - if you are one of those rare new car buyers out there that really does keep a car until its wheels fall off. That said 20 grand for a Taurus is going to be tempting (as it should be) to those that are influenced by low 'sales' prices, but conversely the fact that a 'new' model that's only been available for a short time is already selling below invoice , that the 'Taurus' name is associated with Hertz, and that they couldn't give away the previous Five Hundred, will also mean that resale values should be in the toilet rather quickly. It's really too bad and a shame that this is happening already, Ford could certainly use any money their products could fetch. Besides which, if you really really want value, don't buy a new car at all, just wait a year or two.
If you do break down and find yourself in a Toyota dealership looking at one of those 'refined' (you word) Avalons etc make sure that you don't talk to them about how much cheaper a Ford or Hyundai might be - ,they don't care, and it would be one way to get ignored (Toyota and Honda dealers will do that)- because they KNOW the true value of what they are selling. Thise Azera and Taurus buyers? Will probably be treated like kings at the dealers and may also find out which cars are the comparative 'values' a few years down the road.
I was not talking used car retails..... However, if you can get 25K for your three year old Chrysler 300, you better sell it now. A dealer will have a tough time getting that. Honestly, I find the car a dog... barely a better performer than Avalon or Azera despite having a V8, an awful interior (IMO), low FE, and although yours has been "zero problems" a spotty reliability record. Its bright spots are its unique look and RWD.... thats where it ends.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
If you think about the 300C at introduction and even 6 months later, it did hit the showrooms with a lot of novelty 'back to our roots' value, some rave reviews from the car mags. (of course), and sold, I believe, pretty well. I think it would be easier to get a 29k price today (on a 36k sticker) now that gas prices have gone up and the novelty has worn off - then it would have in the fall of 04 with a MSRP 2 grand less.
I can't think of a time in recent history that there have been more varied choices in this price/size range. You may not like many of them. What I was getting at was not only the choices of brands but the choices within each brand. For example, while the Impala is due for replacement, current buyers can choose a rental car V6 or a very quick V8. Same thing with the Chrysler products. Yes, the Lucerne V6 is out of date but the Northstar equipped version is not bad at all, IMO. Others like the Avalon or Taurus/Sable may just have one engine choice but the variation of options can really change the character and price of the car.
I know what you are saying the choices are there. However, I just find some of them hard to pick over Av/Az/Taurus. As for the Lucerne (as I have said before) I may have bought one if they had the 3.6L V6 as an option. I just can't justify the FE of a V8 sedan that in this case is slower than my Avalon.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
There certainly is a difference in FE. V8 Lucerne 15/23 vs. Avalon 19/28 which is over 20%. But, of course, there are other differences which may of may not matter depending on the individual. Lucerne is about 6" longer with a 17' trunk and with somewhat more leg and hip room and also weights about 450 # more. Have driven the CXS and it would seem to be a great hiway cruiser (which is what I want it for), and as sort of an old school guy, I still have a thing for the smooth power of a good V8. Have yet to drive the Avalon, but it certainly remains on the (very) short list.
I almost want to play the violin for poooor Ford.
Thise Azera and Taurus buyers? Will probably be treated like kings at the dealers and may also find out which cars are the comparative 'values' a few years down the road.
My 8 year old Hyundai has been a great value. It's approaching 160K miles, and I've only had to do scheduled maintenance. The wheels are far from falling off, too. I would definitely buy another Hyundai. I also got over 120K trouble-free miles on a '96 Ford before selling it. I would also definitely buy another Ford. If I were to buy a car new, I would choose the car that's $4,000 or $5,000 cheaper since I don't feel the need to get a new car every 3 or 4 years.
The upcoming G8 (I hate that name!) will add another credible player in this field.
And, Captain, yes, I used the word refined, or refinement, and proceeded it with the word mechanical. To be more specific, I was really referring to the engine. My somewhat limited experience with Toyota V6s is that they are very smooth and quiet and have a pleasing sound when pushed. The Ford 3.0 Duratec was pretty rough around the edges in comparison. The new 3.5 Ford is much more pleasing than the 3.0, possibly due to more sound insulation and the way the engine is mounted. I would have to drive it back to back with an Avalon to draw any firm conclusions.
Also, I agree that low price and value do not mean the same thing. When I refer to the Taurus as being a good value, I refer to it's attributes of space, comfort, ride, quiet, and driving experience for its price. Before buying, my primary comparisons were with rentals - Impalas, 4 cyl Camrys, Altimas, V6 Chargers, Fusions, etc. Upon driving a Taurus rental for the first time a few months ago, I concluded that, for my purposes, it was worth $5000 more than any of them. Fortunately, the transaction price was comparable or lower.
As for resale, I was responding to a poster who indicated that the buyer didn't seem to care about resale. In any case, condition of the vehicle being sold plays a big role. I just sold the 2001 Taurus that our new one replaced. It had 88,000 trouble-free miles on it and brought about 1/3 of what I paid for it brand new. There are thousands of old Taurus rental returns that have really hurt the resale values, but frankly, on cars in this low price range, I don't care much about depreciation, either.
Roland
Now Avalon to Lucerne is Apples to Apples comparison. Though Northstar is great engine, it is showing its age in Buick. If Lucerne had 3.6 with 275 HP as one in Enclave, your choice would have been much closer. I do believe that 3.6 is now one of the best engines on the market today. Also now reliability wise Buick and Toyota are almost dead even.
Am very glad that you did - after all that is supposed to be the point of these forums. I do have a couple of questions.
1. Did you spring for the NAV? I seem to read a lot of complaints about those on the Avalon.
2. Do you have any problem with the six speed transmission "hunting" in normal driving?
3. I understand that the rear seat does not fold down. Is there a pass-thru from the trunk and do you find that the trunk has sufficient usable space for long trips?
4. In your experience is app. 25 MPG overall a reasonable expectation? We will be using the car mostly for longer trips (retirement car) at around 10K per year. At $4.00 per gallon I figure that the Lucerne would cost us about $500 more per year to run - not a deal breaker but something to consider.
As far as other makes go, there are a couple of issues that prevent me from even considering them.
1. Chrysler - afraid that it will not survive (except for Jeep) making any long-term warranty advantage useless.
2. Hyundai - no AUX. While I am sure that this is no big deal to many people, my wife and kids chipped in to get me a 30G IPod a couple of years ago that I use virtually every day (salesman).
3. Ford Taurus - just looks cheap inside to me, and the exterior reminds me too much of the wife's 80's Tempo.
Thanks for your and anyone else's input.
The car might seem a bit large and ponderous compared to a Civic. My wife's first reaction was that the new Taurus seemed a lot bigger than her old one - and of course it is. The high seating position and lots of glass on the sides make for great visability, though. Now, she races around in the thing and parks it more easily than she did the old Taurus.
Haha, my mom's last car was a 4,400 lb Honda Odyssey. The Taurus will be just
fine I hope! My dad does most of the driving in the Civic. They want a higher-sitting and more cushy car than the Civic for their other vehicle.
As for the transmission "hunting" gears.. I have noticed that sometimes at very slow speeds, like slow enough to turn a corner, that there is a very small amount of "lag" time before the car changes gears, but to be honest I've never really considered it a problem.
You mentioned the back seat... it does not fold down.. however it does recline 10 degrees.. You mentioned you would primarily be using your avy as a highway / vacation car. Anyone riding in the back will certainly enjoy that reclining back seat on a long trip. Yes, there is a pass thru from the trunk into the back seat area.. As far as mileage goes, I have not yet put my car on the highway for a long trip, I can tell you that driving it around town and back and forth to work, which is about 10 miles each way, and a combination of city and highway, I do average around 25 to 26 miles a gallon, so I would expect that a constant speed over a long stretch of hiway would certainly result in higher FE numbers. For the power that this V-6 puts out, fuel economy is very good. I will close this out by telling you that If I were in the car market again tomorrow, I would more than likely purchase another Avy. Just my opinion.
Roland
You're average FE with a combo city and hwy trip is 25-26 mph??? And that's for an Avalon??? That's Corolla and 4 cylinder Camary FE....
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Same for me although actually closer to 27mpg! Admittedly about 70% of that is highway, but then again highway down here (Texas) means 80 mph+. And sure I could understand something as low as 21mpg as well - throwing in some gridlock (true City no around town ) and maybe 50/50 or more. I think the Avalon new EPA (and CR) is 22 overall, a figure that's easily done IMO; and is relative to mid and high teens in the 'power' competitive V8 models as well as things like the Azera. The Maxima and probably the Taurus are close, but compared to most of these cars, a 3-5 mpg difference in FE sure makes a difference!
My observation - the CVVTi systems in the Avalon (and others) serve (among other things) to widen and flatten the torque curve, so in effect, it provides the same level of 'drivability' as the big ole V8s - meaning good torque availability at lower engine revs. While V8s of any sort do have a different sound to them, there is further no denying that the Toyota engine is as smooth or even smoother and quieter than the Northstar - or any of those really ancient pushrods.
Add the 20% FE penalty you mention as well as another 10-15% penalty for premium gas (in some cases)- we end up something that conceivably costs $60-70 more a month to drive (2k/mo.). A stiff premium for a car that is 'overpriced' to begin with IMO, the now 292hp 'Super' should come close to keeping up with my Avalon - at the penalties of even more fuel costs. I agree with tjc on this one - don't feel the V8 is a viable option for cars in this class, given the good V6s that are available.