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Cadillac DTS V-Series

supercoolsupercool Posts: 31
edited March 2014 in Cadillac
Is there in any formation on the possibility of V-series for the DTS?


  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    There is no indication from Cadillac that there will be a V-series DTS as long as it is a front wheel drive car. The DTS is not a sports sedan, and should not have been rebadged DTS, but should have been badged DLS (deVille Luxury Sedan).

    If the DTS becomes a rear wheel drive model, then possibly a V-series could make sense, but I see no reason to add yet another model to the V-series cars. The CTS_V and STS_V models make some sense to me, with their BMW counterparts being the M3 and M5 models. However, there is no BMW M7 model, which would be silly as the 7-series is a luxury sedan, not a sports sedan. There is the AMG S-class Mercedes cars though, unfortunately, none of Cadillac's current V-series models are competitive with them, so rather than Cadillac spending money on a DTS V-series car, they should upgrade the current models to make them better able to compete with the AMG Mercedes models.
  • Upgrading is what the V-series is attempting to do.

    I agree with you on the front wheel drive status.

    Nevertheless, a full size Caddy boosting sport performance would complete the line up for Cadillac. Additionally, by having a sport sedan, the image would rub off on the regular "DLS" buyer and increase sales overall.

    Since the DTS-V would a speciality model, as are the other V-cars, the regular buyer would purchase the "DLS" by association.

    Another impetus get the DTS-V would be to simply compete in the class. A reason the upscale American cars are not taken seriously is due to lack of being competitive.
    "You've got to be in the race to win the race."

    As for the BMW -7 series, look at the general performance stats, and its clear to see that its a sport sedan, just short of the AMG class.

    I want my DTS-V!!! Just call me a silly american, looking for some serious american performance.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Presently the AMG E63 is king. The BMW M5 is dead. The STS_V never was.

    A DTS RWD sedan might make a good platform for a DTS_V if and only if the V-series version sports a V16. Building this would probably complete the job of bankrupting GM.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    The STS-v with a '06 E55 AMG matching 469hp is very competitve. Most auto rags actually prefer it over the $83k E55. Although the E63 is faster, it's not out just yet.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The car magazines are running stories on their tests, and comparison tests of the AMG E63, so there are some E63 out there. While the STS_V has decent performance, and compared to the M5, is a car that can be driven in stop and go traffic on a daily basis, the STS_V was never a top choice in any comparison test.

    I still think that a FWD DTS V-series is a silly idea. A more upscale RWD DTS might be a good platform for a V-series, but now the base price will probably be $60,000 for a V8, $120,000 for a V12 and, finally, $300,000 for the V16 V-series model.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Car and Driver placed the car ahead of the E55 only to be beat by the top dog M5.

    To me, the STS-v splits the difference between them all. The car is an everyday user, not as hard edged as the M5, and more fun to drive than the E55, more reliable also.

    As for the V16, we may as well forget it. That engine will never be produced unless Caddy finally decides to go upmarket. However, the V12 Escalade is a go for '08, along with hybrid. We may see this engine in a so-called DTS-v, if that ever comes true. I do believe that Caddy wants to get serious with the Europeans, witnessed by the awesome STS-v/CTS and CTS-v. And this is why the next DTS will be RWD with a sport variant similar to the S63/S65 AMG's from Benz.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    In the July Automobile, they had a comparison test of the new V10 Audi S6, the V10 M5 BMW, and the AMG E63 Mercedes. The STS_V was not considered. They ranked the M5 3rd, the Audi 2nd and the E63 first.

    My point has been that the FWD DTS would not make much of a platform for a serious V-series car. The issue for a RWD DTS is what sort of car should this be. If the future DTS is to continue as a popularly priced large sedan as the Sedan deVille has been historically, then what platform it should be built on is the question. The sigma platform is expensive, and a large sedan (larger than the STS) should be more expensive than the V8 STS is. This would move the DTS into a higher price range than the popularly price DTS is currently. The "global RWD platform" that GM's Holden models use for their larger sedans would make sense for a popularly price RWD deVille Cadillac. This would not be the best platform for a serious V-series deVille though. The best platform for a V-series deVille would be the sigma platform.

    At this point in time, with the future deVille replacement's platform in some question, I think talk of a V-series model is premature.
  • A DTS-V is possible simply from the current GM parts bin.

    A 16 cylinder engine is out of the question with gas prices above 2 dollars, and that is not even considering the current 3 dollars prices that we are seeing, which by the way is just un-American. Additionally, these prices are overpriced with the amount of oil that is available throught out the world, however this is an issue to a different forum.

    A FWD DTS-V is a non-sensical competitor; however an AWD is the way to go, since the parts bin is already established by virture of the STS. The base components are in place and balancing is all that remains for the extended wheel base necessary for a DTS.

    Further, base competition is now 500 hp in the upper eschelon class of the M cars of BMW and the S cars of Audi, and Mecerdes Benz. The North Star power plant is easily capable of producing these horses and if necessary to play hard ball, GM can certainly lean on the Corvette engine to get the job done and get into the game.

    As for marketing, using the Chrysler model of the 300M and the hemi-engine; most 300M are base models, but the hemi-engine gets folks to by the base with the association of the hemi. A DTS-V can do the same marketing job!

    With all this being said, I want my DTS-V!

  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The STS is a sigma-platform model. The sigma-platform AWD can't be transplanted into a FWD G-platform, which is what the FWD DTS is.

    What you seem to be saying is that the refinement of the DOHC VVT northstar V8 should be replaced with an unrefined pushrod V8 of at least 500 horsepower.

    In any case, I think that more can be done with the existing V-series models before wasting good money on yet another half baked V-series model.
  • I'm in agreement with you on platforms. The G-platform needs to go away and the sigma platform becomes the standard.

    Essentially what happens is the the STS becomes stretched to become a DTS. It's no engineering marvel or feat to make this move.

    As for horse power, I'm of the opinion the DOHC WT Northstar is capable of cranking out 500 horses. Once again, the parts bin already stocked with the components to make this happen. I only mention pushrod V8 as a matter of raw power capability in order to compete against the Europeans.

    Hence, its no major leap or half-baked concept to create a DTS-V because all the components are already in place.

    The major move is to assemble, balance and refine the components to fit the "big boy" and then Cadillac becomes a complete player on the performance realm matching up against BMW, Audi and M-Benz. From this stand point, then Cadillac can begin to improve on its stats.

    Currently, according to all the car rags, the V cars are only lagging by 1-1.5 seconds. Of course, 1-1.5 seconds is significant, but its clear where we stand and where the improve needs to come. Easy measurements and improvements to monitor.

    The final piece is the marketing to make the V-series luster and "bad assness" glow over to the base models.

    I want my DTS-V!
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    There are those who complain that the STS has too little shoulder and hip room. They like the wider body that the current DTS has. I think that a sigma DTS needs to go onto a wider and longer body.

    The current STS is about $10,000 more that the CTS. One assumes that the V8 DTS would then be about $10,000 than a similar V8 STS. I would guess that the base price for a sigma DTS would be around $60,000.
  • I agree. If you're over 6 feet tall and larger than a medium frame, the STS is a tight fit. It would be fine for computing or hopping around, but for any significant road trip, the STS would feel cramped after 3 hours.

    DTS-V simply needs to incorporated the systems of the STS-V; upgrade, beef-up, or strengthen materials to accomodate for the larger size of the DTS and you've got a class car!

    I want my DTS-V!
  • $60,000 for a top notch V-Series DTS would be bargain!

    I want my DTS-V
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    My pricing estimates were for a base DTS, not a DTS_V. Add $10,000 onto the STS_V price tag for an estimate on what a DTS_V should cost, and that would be for a V8 model.

    Please try to understand that the current FWD DTS will remain in production for a few more years, and a RWD DTS is only in the planning stage at this point. There is no public information on this that I have seen. A V-series DTS would be a longer term project.

    A very serious question remains as to what Cadillac will do with the DTS or the deVille series. This has been a popular Cadillac since the mid-1950's. Please try to grasp the point that making the DTS on the RWD sigma platform will increase its price tag considerably. It would make no sense to have a small STS model priced at the same level as a larger DTS model on the sigma platform. In any case, the cost of building a larger model on the sigma platform would be higher than the smaller STS, thus the price would have to be greater.
  • I disagree with you on price and engineering challenges.

    Taking a DTS to the sigma platform does not requires major engineering changes; its simply a matter of scale for the production line. This is one of the reasons, GM & Ford are being killed at the market place, due to their unwillingness and slowness to meet the demand of the market place.

    BMW, M-Benz, and Audi series cars are virtually identical in components, and what they offer is size differentials.
    By way of example: BMW 3-series, 5-series, and 7-series.
    These cars are all "fundamently" the same and then scaled up from the basic design for size.

    With this being said, taking the sigma platform and pumping it up with the steriods, bears you the DTS-V.
    Price: $70-75,000.

    The DTS/DeVille popularity has been with an aging demographic, which has probably bought their last DTS/DeVille.

    Unless Cadillac is looking to relinquish the full size car market to the Europeans and Lincoln-Ford, a change has gotta-come! The change opportunity is in the DTS sigma platform! With respect to time and long term project, Cadillac/GM does not have time to for play. Toyota has surpassed Ford to be the number 2 car manufacturer in the states, and for sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, they're looking to be number 1, which means the products have to make it to the show room swiftly and they need to be "hot" to capture the American car buying market. They worked for the SUV, but with gas prices hitting the roof, they're outdated by economics. Cars and crossovers are the future.

    With a Cadillac luster in small (CTS), mid-size (STS), and full size (DTS) via the V-series, Cadillac will be able to command a presence and product in the upper eschelon of the car market, which will capture the American buyer.

    I want my DTS-V!
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The current sigma factory is limited to 150,000 vehicles annually. The current CTS, SRX and STS models run about 100,000 to 120,000 units annually. So, unless another sigma factory is added, the sigma DTS will be limited to about 40 to 50 thousand units annually. Current DTS production should run around 70 to 80 thousand units.

    The BMW 3, 5 and 7 series cars are not priced the same. So, the CTS , STS and DTS models should not be priced the same either. The V-series versions also should not be priced the same. The CTS_V is about $50,000; the STS_V is about 75,000; therefore the DTS_V should be about $100,000. Perhaps, with a V12, $125,000.
  • I don't contemplate production line creation has an issue.
    GM has plenty of factory capacity in Canada, Mexico and the United States (unless they're deciding to shut it down!) to set up a DTS sigma line (this of course based on the premise the only engineering necessary is a scaling up for size).

    Pricing however is an issue. $100,000 DTS-V is a steep price for the current image of Cadillac. The Escalde is only going for 75K. A solid way to go is to introduce the model at about 80K, show its value and build the cache, and then bump it incremently. Additionally, DTS-V would be a steriod version of the regular DTS which could be sold for 60K, with a good built in mark up. With this approach, Cadillac is down to one platform with all associated engineering consolidated and efficiency maximized.

    I want my DTS-V!
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Certainly an existing factory could be retooled to expand the sigma production capacity. However, this is not going to make the sigma platform less expensive to build.

    Perhaps Cadillac should only build V-series models since that seems to be what you want.
  • Do I want a v-series line . . . of course that's what I want.

    What make you think the sigma platform is expensive to build?

    Any platform short of a model T is expensive.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    It is expensive because they use high strength steel alloys to build the body stucture. The less expensive lines, like the DTS, use cheaper steels for the body stucture. It seems to me that you really have no idea how cars are built, or what makes one better than another.
  • Your opening line of response is rather basic.

    You cite quality of components with respect to engineering capability and production line creation.

    If you used higher grade/quality components on a Ford Tarus or Chevrolet Impala, it would be more expensive too. Hence, the issue is not component quality and price, but engineering capability, market demand and marketing.

    The engineering capability question is alreaday answered! The sigma platform exists and is a finished design. Scaling up for a full size version is not a major feat, and I would venture that a full size plan (DTS)is already drawn.

    The unknown question is market demand. Certainly, keeping it easy on the current FWD platform is nice for GM, but this attitude of not making a push to the next level is killing GM and Ford on product placement versus the competition. A look at the market share number in any category tells the story.

    Certainly my sole voice calling for the DTS-V would not prompt GM to create a production line to meet my demand. However, I am of the opinion there are other unvoiced voices out there that desire a full size Caddy capable of competing with the full size BMW, Audi, and M-Benz. This is the push that GM needs to make in order to keep Cadillac in the game. They done a nice job with the CTS in the lite division, doing nice with the STS in the middle division. Now its time to start playing like a big boy and move to the heavy weight division with a DTS and stand up and be counted.

    Hence, the standard GM market approach could be to create a base model DTS for the masses and a DTS-V model for the performance crowd. This would allow for a halo effect across the entire Cadillac line up.

    If GM can take a Chey Suburban, change the badging and interior appointments and call it an Escalde, then anything is possible.

    I want my DTS-V
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Market demand will depend on the price of the vehicle. The price will depend on the platform that it is built on, which will determine the cost of building.

    If the DTS is going onto the expensive sigma platform as a larger car than the current CTS and STS models, then it makes sense to me that it will cost more to build and the price should be higher. However, they could put cheap plastics and cloth seats in it and keep the cost and price down. It this what you are looking for?

    The Escalde is not really a Cadillac from my point of view, but if people are dumb enough to pay extra for the bling, then why not?
  • Price and cost are intermingled.

    The more you produce, generally the lower price becomes due to scales of efficiency/economy.

    My argument is not on whether the price will be steep.
    My argument is that the demand "may" be sufficient to have scales of efficiency/economy to become a significant factor.

    If the DTS on sigma platform sells in the same numbers as that psuedo-cadillac the "Allente" then its doomed to failure and priced out of the market. However, if the market calls for it in the same numbers as the CTS and STS, then its a winner, coming in at the lower end of the high scale.

    By the way, I enjoy this exchange of ideas, concepts and views with you.

    Nevertheless, I want my DTS-V
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    One advantage of the sigma factory is that the assembly line can build all of the sigma models. Thus if one model is a slow seller, the factory can stay busy building the models that do sell. This is why I have said that adding the DTS to the sigma line up would probably have to be at a higher price level, since the remaining production capcity is around 30,000 vehicles annually. A DTS priced around $60,000 would probably sell at rate fewer than 25,000 annually.

    If they want to keep the DTS sales at a high level, then I think that a cheaper platform is needed. Adding another factory to build expensive sigma vehicles would simply make all of them more expensive since I doubt that they could sell 300,000 annually. It makes more sense to me to put a lower priced DTS on the Zeta II (or Global RWD platform) platform, and then build a RWD Buick sedan that could be sold at entry level luxury price (replacement for the Lucerne). However, I doubt that this platform would be good for the V-series model you want.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I really do not understand what you want from the DTS_V model. We already have the STS_V, which I think should be upgraded to compete better with the AMG E63 Mercedes, the current king of the hill so to speak. It would be a mistake to build two V-series sedans in the same price range. Only one is needed.
  • I'm fairly in agreement with your analysis on price and potential volume sales based on the Sigma platform.

    The general problem with volume sales is the small number of potential buyers in the full size sedan market segment, and the even smaller subset of buyers for the full size luxury sedans. If 25,000 were sold, that would be darn excellent.

    The big sellers are the crossovers, and small to mid-size sedans. Pick trucks will typically do well as a general segment. However, the full size sedan market is basically dying off, the baby-boomers are most likely into their last full sedans.

    Hence, from a real market perspective, I would not argue the realities of a DTS-V product placement, however, I find the STS-V to be mid-sedan lacking the creature comforts of a full size sedan. In the role of a Cadillac booster, a DTS-V completes the line from small to full size. Further, absent a full size model, Cadillac relinquishes the market to the Audi - A8, the BMW 740/750 (an what ever other mid-production numbers they create), and the M-Benz 600.

    This is where the rub is; the front-wheel drive DTS is good for the disappearing baby-boomer, but to sell to a new crowd, a DTS-V type product must be in the competition zone, which are the models I previously mentioned.

    So Cadillac can either be a second tier competitor and stop at the STS or it can a first teir competitor and place in product in the full size zone, as a true compititor.

    As for the Zeta II platform, sounds like its homework time for me, I not familiar with this platform.

    I want my DTS-V.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The Audi A8 is selling very slow, 3000 so far this year. The BMW 7-series is better at 11,000. The S-class Mercedes is best at 17,000. All of these cars are very expensive. A DTS in this price range is probably going to sell a few thousand annually. The M5 BMW is running at 2000 so far this year. The DTS has sold 33,000 so far this year.

    The V-series is supposed to be a high performance version of a "performance" model. Cadillac considers the sigma line, the CTS, STS and SRX to be performance cars, with better handling, harder ride, more European Sports Sedan than American cruiser.

    Moving the DTS into the sports sedan market will result in a smaller car, or it will result in a very expensive up-market sedan, which will sell slower. Now, if the DTS is priced somewhere in the $60,000 level, with the base model perhaps a bit less, but with options more, the sales rate may run upwards of 25,000, but my guess is that half that is more likely.

    Perhaps Cadillac will drop the old luxury barge market that the old deVille was very popular in. The Town Car is old luxury barge style too. While the BMW 7-series is not quite the best choice for a sports sedan (the 5-series is best), the 7 series is bigger and more luxurious, so it is BMW's luxury model. Note that there is no M-series version of this model. However, the 7-series is far closer to the "sports sedan" class than the FWD DTS is. As far as pure handling goes, the 3 series is considered best, but with a V8 the 5 series is perhaps the optimum for overall performance.

    The question is: should Cadillac make the DTS into a hard riding BMW sports sedan style of car? OR: Should it be more like the S-class Mercedes? or maybe more Lexus LS. The Lexus is a luxury barge style of car.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The DTS could take over the current STS position in the sigma line up. That way it would be priced lower. The next generation CTS is said to be a bit larger than the current model, although that is strange in that the current CTS is already big relative to the competition. So, the DTS could be a bit wider than the current STS, but shorter than the current DTS, making the rear seat legroom much smaller. Then the next generation STS could become a 7-series style of car, without the V-series, which would go to the new DTS. To me this makes sense: low end -> CTS; mid-range -> DTS; high end -> STS.

    There would only be two V-series models, the CTS_V and the DTS_V. Unless, the STS_V is a V12 super luxury performance car with say 700 horsepower. They would only sell one per year at cost 1 million each.

    Buick could fill in as a lower end luxury barge sort of car with a big De Ville style sedan.
  • All of what you mentioned is the problem for Cadillac. In some respects its have an identity crisis.

    The division wants to compete in the performance luxury class but has a problem with lining up properly in the class, since the Europeans are setting the bench marks.

    The STS and CTS do a nice job in the small to mid-size, but the problem comes at the full size. Ultimately the question is price. Once a person starts to lay out over $60K the current inclination is to go Euro.

    I'm of the opinion that when the new styling was introduced it caught alot of attention and the attetion became acute with the "V" line up. Now however, the look is getting stale and Cadillac failed to drop the hammer, that being the full size version, a-la, the DTS.

    Herein lies the dilemma, stay with the sure seller luxury barge or continue the cutting edge push.

    This is where I think Cadillac can have its cake and eat it too. Create small volume run of DTS-V and the associated price, and also put out a knock-off DTS at the lower price relying on the halo effect. (This probably where the Zeta II platform should be appropriately exploited.) This is the same game plan Chrysler is doing with the 300M. They have the base model, which is the bread and butter, but they also have the Hemi performance option which show as the muscle and attention getter. Hardcore folks buy the hemi, but the general buyer is happy with look general look without hemi.

    Incidently, I do find is curious that there is no M series for the 600 Benz model.

    I want my DTS-V
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I am confused by your last post.

    #1 - The 300M is no longer in production.

    #2 - Mercedes does not have an M series of any sort that I know of.

    Discussion of Cadillac V-series models is totally without the base model is nonsense. For the V-series to make any sense what-so-ever, there must be an appropriate base model from which to make a limited production V-series.

    I will agree that Cadillac does not have a model in the Audi A8, BMW 7-series, Lexus LS, or Mercedes S-class category. As far as that goes, Cadillac does not really have a good Audi A6, BMW 5-series, or Mercedes E-class model either. Rather than spending money GM DOES NOT HAVE on yet another mediocre V-series model, they should focus on getting what they have now improved. At least they have had the sense not to make a V-series out of the SRX.
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