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Are Toyota's truck sales that bad? I don't have specific numbers for them. I know most of their gains (8.1% for light trucks) came from the FJ and RAV4, but I wasn't aware that others like the 4Runner and Taco had dropped.
I know Honda's Ridgeline and Pilot and actually up for the month and the year. If that's suffering, I can't imagine the proper word for poor Ford.
Tacoma: 101,203, up 7.3%
Tundra: 67,743, down 10.4%
4Runner: 64,212, up 4.6%
Ram: 215,967, down 11.7% The Ram is now sixth in overall sales, behind in order: F-Series, Silverado, Camry, Corolla, Accord.
F-Series (excluding medium duty): 440,258, down 13.3%
Silverado (excluding medium duty): 383,752, down 20.1%
Ridgeline: 31,213, up 71.8% (introduced spring '05)
Pilot: 90,236, up 15.0%
Chrysler 300: 83,772, down 0.4%
Caliber: 50,881 (introduced March '06)
Well, I've had 3 Camrys (2 currently) plus a '98 Frontier pickup. They've all been way more reliable than the '90 Mercury Sable that preceded them. I hardly see the guys at my repair shop, usually just for state inspections. (I do my own maintenance.)
3 recalls in total for the 4 vehicles, going back 9 years now. (1 of the 3 wasn't even safety-related, and in 1 other case, my particular car didn't have the problem as it turned out -- twisted side curtain airbags).
The newest Camry is just over a year old, and it has none of the problems people on the Camry boards have been complaining about.
So why should I buy domestic?
As for why you should buy domestic, that's another forum:
link title
http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/08/autos/jdpower_dependability/index.htm
J.D. Power 2006 Vehicle Dependability Study
Top ranking brands:
1. Lexus (Toyota), Score: 136
2. Mercury (Ford), Score: 151
3. Buick (GM), Score: 153
4. Cadillac (GM), Score: 163
5. Toyota, Score: 179
6. Acura (Honda), Score: 184
7. Honda, Score: 194
8. Jaguar (Ford), Score: 210
9. BMW, Score: 212
10. Infiniti (Nissan), Score: 215
11. Lincoln (Ford), Score: 220
12. Ford, Score: 224
13. Oldsmobile (GM), Score: 224
Average score: 227
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My dad's 2000 Taurus has given him 130k miles of absolutely trouble free driving, but I sure wouldn't want it. He is now ready for a new car and even though he's had great luck from his past two Fords he isn't interested in any of the current models Ford offers and is now looking at alternatives.
The Camry really isn't pig-nosed -- it doesn't have a snout like the 1975 AMC "Jimmy Durante" Matador. The problem is the emblem is too big (who's isn't these days) and it "hangs" from the top of the grille.
Which bring me to my pet peeve of today -- oversized, overblinged grilles, emblems, and wheels!
dieselone: well, to me it makes a difference that Toyota achieved almost the same reliability rating despite having many more models than either Buick or Mercury, having annual sales at like 6 times the annual rate of either, and with (in 2003) one brand new model (totally revised 4Runner) and two models only 1-2 years old (the high-volume Camry and Corolla). Indeed, NONE of their models was older than three years except the Tacoma. Compare that to:
Mercury Grand Marquis: dated back to what, 1978, except for the addition of fuel injection around 1990?
Mercury Marauder: a limited run model, not sure of this one's pedigree, but the numbers were very small anyway.
Mercury Sable: the rebadged Taurus last reengineered in 1996, with a new nose tacked on in 2000 I believe?
Mercury Mountaineer: the rebadged Explorer clone, which had been reengineered when? This was the newest of the four I think.
Point is, it was a limited line of vehicles that had been around a long time, and the two volume lines (GM and Sable) were dinosaurs. I realize this will not be significant to some, but to me it is. Regularly reengineered models make any manufacturer more prone to problems.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
BTW, the CrownVic/Grandmarquis line did get FI before 1990. I'd guess it was in '86 (possibly as early as 84) when the 5.0 in the Mustang also got FI. The redesigned '92 model introduced in '91 was fairly modern car at the time. 4 wheel disc brakes, OHC v8 w/ FI, speed sensitive power steering etc. The problem is it hasn't changed much from then.
Bingo! Other than that the new Camry is so much better looking than anything Toyota has ever had under the Camry or Avalon nameplates. The SE version in particular really has potential if a larger wheel is added.
M
Most of you may think: "come on, you live in Brazil, most cars there use 1.0L engines with no more than 70 HP, what do you know about real cars?" I may agree that we don't have real cars around here, but i know what a real car is when i look at it.
Listen to those names: Corolla, Camry. Now listen again: Corvette, Mustang, Charger. Good God, even the Americans' model names sound more fun, more exciting!
Now of course there's more than one kind of fun - I would rather have a car with fantastic handling and a smaller engine you have to keep on the boil than a big V-8 that drives like a brick and removes the road from the driving experience, if I have to pick between the two. The Japanese do the handling bit quite well, I think. But it is perfectly true there are barely any models amongst all of them that will win any drag races against the well-known American names.
A footnote to all of this, of course, is that the volume money in the car biz is not in these fun, sporty cars that invoke passion. It is in sedans and pick-ups (and SUVs, less and less all the time). I don't think domestic fans are that much more passionate about their Malibus and Five Hundreds than Japanese fans are about their Accords and Avalons.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I always say to all my friends that people in north america give more value to the money than we do here. You would never pay 60.000,00 on a new Civic or 25.000,00 on a Chevrolet Celta, try to search photos of this car on the web, the interior is so ugly and so plastic, the seats upholstery is worst than anything you've ever seen, i think no american would ever buy it, not even if it costs less than 10.000,00. Most cars here won't offer leather seat not even as an optional and when it does it costs a lot.
Recently we got the Ford Fusion SEL 2.3L and the VW Jetta 2.5L, Fusion is the nº 1 in sales as imported car and it costs 85.000,00 with moonroof. Can you imagine that??
The Celta is $11,7 in U.S. dollars, weighing 2000 pounds, with 70 hp, and based mostly on the Opel Corsa. Might be OK, although you are right, in the U.S. we can gat better cars for $11,7. This is about what I figure the Chinese cars will be like when they get here, only I think they will probably cost less than $11,7.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yes, most Toyotas are boring, point-A-to-point-B cars (although the small pickups have a rugged reputation).
But people forget that those type of cars have been most popular in America for decades.
From 1932 to 1954, Chevrolet sold a boat-anchor six against Ford's peppy (for the day) flathead V-8. During that timeframe, Chevy was only better looking than the comparable Ford in two years - 1941 and 1942.
But Chevy regularly whipped Ford in sales (except for 1935), because they had better workmanship and had a "more responsible" public image (Ford in those days was the favored car of hot-rodders and gangsters!).
Which sounds suspiciously like a modern-day Camry, although GM fans would probably die before they would ever admit it!
In 1960, Chevrolet came out with the radical, very stylish Corvair, while Ford countered with the conservative, plain (but still good-looking, in my opinion, but in a different way), Falcon. And Ford promptly whipped Chevy in the new compact class, easily outselling not only the Corvair, but also the radically styled Valiant.
Even during the supposedly halycon 1960s, most cars were mid-level two-door hardtops and four-door sedans with mild-mannered V-8s, power steering, power brakes, AM radio and (if the buyer splurged) air conditioning.
High-performance engines were rare (that's why they are so valuable today), convertibles were rapidly declining in popularity, and most people were even reluctant to spend extra money for disc brakes. When I was a kid in the early 1970s, it was still a big deal to see a new Corvette, Eldorado or Continental Mark III and IV in our small town, they were so rare. And those muscle cars bringing $1 million bids at Barrett-Jackson today often had to be practically GIVEN away on used car lots, as no one outside of teenagers wanted them!
And I would argue that the Honda Civic Si and Accord EX V-6 six speed still provoke plenty of excitement and passion among owners and would-be owners.
In fact, Honda's strategy of offering special, high-performance versions of its regular sedans and coupes sounds very similar to what Chevrolet did in the 1960s with its Super Sport variants of the Nova, Malibu and Impala.
These may be the good old days...
Going back to the main subject of the topic, i won't disagree to the fact that nippon cars are the top notch in quality, but i can't find on them the "eye catching" sensation i find on american cars. Although i'm almost decided to buy a 98/99/00 Civic as my first car. The price? Well, lets say that i could buy a 2006 Civic in North america with this money...
Toyota indeed could pass General Motors Corp. for the lead in global sales by next year, according to Jeff Schuster, executive director of global forecasting and product analysis for J.D. Power and Associates. But after that, Toyota's global growth rate will slow somewhat, and the world's Big 2 automakers will run neck and neck into the middle of the next decade.
"We're calling it a dead heat from this year forward," Schuster said in a speech to the Management Briefing Seminars in Traverse City, sponsored by the Center for Automotive Research.
1. Does anyone really think that if GM announced today that a 2000 lb, 70 hp car were available that it would be sold for less than $11,000? I would expect GM (or any car company for that matter) to charge the consumer a premium for saving gas.
2. What exactly would prevent the Celta (presumably a GM car in Brazil that I have never heard of in the US) from being sold today in the US? I've heard all this information about safety and emissions standards being higher in the US. In my mind this simply registers as the "Kennedy" scotch liquor tax. In other words, one company sells an industry bumper that every car company that wants to sell in the US must use and an industry catalytic converter that lines the pockets of select individuals (i.e. corruption). Where is the crash test evidence that a car registered in the US is "safer" than a European car or a Brazilian car?
This all boils down to government responsibility (or lack of it). The ONLY reason a person wants a Hummer is to feel superior to me in a Corolla. If I drove a 1,000 lb gokart to work everyday, the person that is currently driving a Hummer would feel quite comfortable in a Corolla.
But face it, what does the Aveo sell for? $9K in its most basic form, day in and day out? This car they could sell for $7K after rebates, and the only sacrifice you would be making for that rock-bottom price would be a 30 hp deficit. It would still make a decent commuter and city car, I think.
As for nvbanker's posting, I think that GM will eventually give in and go back to monster fleet sales, in which case it could stay neck and neck between GM and Toyota. If they resist that urge, I think Toyota will eventually settle a number of points up in global market share from GM. The real problem for Toyota is the Chinese (and then it will be the Indians) in the long term, not GM.
Years from now when we look back, I think we will say that GM's best move EVER was buying Daewoo, which gives them the expertise to finally compete on the global stage outside North America and Europe. Ford does not have such an advantage.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It is not a matter of US cars being safer, but rather different standards from different governmental organizations.
On the one hand, Renault, Fiat, Peugeot all make reasonable safe cars. The cars presumably meet EU standards. They do not, however meet US standards. If they did, Renaults especially would be sold in the US through Nissan. Certainly, GM would have been happy to sell Fiats here during its ill fated partnership. Unfortunately, redesigning the Fiats would have cost more than they could be expected to sell for in the US.
Furthermore, the size of a car has nothing to do with it being legal in the US. Rather it is has to do with how the car reacts in various situation. The tiny Lotus Elise, for instance, is legal in the US. The even tinier next generation Smarts will also be legal for sale in the US.
On the other hand, many US and Canadian vehicles are neither legal for sale in the EU or Brasil, for that matter.
Case in point, I used to travel to Brasil a lot. I often thought it was the perfect place to drive a Miata. Miatas were not legal for sale in Brasil. Although other Mazdas and Fords were.
This all boils down to government responsibility (or lack of it). The ONLY reason a person wants a Hummer is to feel superior to me in a Corolla. If I drove a 1,000 lb gokart to work everyday, the person that is currently driving a Hummer would feel quite comfortable in a Corolla.
The suggestion US safety laws somehow encourage SUVs is nonsense. Indeed, more the opposite is true. My understanding is the US is more rigorous on roll overs than the EU. SUVs are more prone to roll over than cars. Ergo, they are subject to more scrutiny here than they would in the EU.
Finally, your suggestion the 'Only' reason someone drives a particular car relates to you somehow says more about you than anyone else. When I am riding my bike on the street, I do not assume someone's choice of vehicle has anything to do with me. Unless I know the person and told them what to buy.
The only cars that stand out of the croud in terms of interior quality here in Brazil are the nippon ones, the TOP of line cars (Focus, Fusion, Chevrolet Vectra, Volkswagen Passat and Jetta, Corolla) or the overpriced imported cars. But none of these goes for less than 40.000,00 reais.
About safety, cars here usually won't offer airbags, not even as an option, there is no retractable pedals, most cars don't feacture telescopic steering column.
We have a car here called Fiat UNO Mille here, is the worst car anyone can have in the whole world, i won't even loose my time talking about that piece of garbage. Even so, it is sold for more than 20.000,00, and there's a lot of people who buy it. Do you understand now why i said that in Brazil, money is not given the value it should have? People expends a lot of money buying crappy cars. But the worst is the financing, sometimes, not to say often, a car can cost twice the price when financed in 60x.
That's why i confirm, even the worst and cheaper of your cars has a lot more quality than most of our cars.
I have always thought the same thing from a buisness perspective.
Rocky
Toyota is not only killing Ford, in CA they are smoking EVERYBODY'S tails:
Toyota Rules Road in California
The Japanese carmaker dominates the state market with 27% of sales, dealer data show. Honda and Ford follow far behind.
By John O'Dell, Times Staff Writer
August 16, 2006
If you've ever wondered as Toyota after Toyota after Honda rolled by on the freeway just how big a lead those automakers had in California, the numbers are in.
And they're big.
ADVERTISEMENT
In its first published look at new-vehicle registrations in the state, the California Motor Car Dealers Assn. found that in the second quarter, Toyota-brand cars and trucks accounted for 23.4% of all sales, followed by Honda at 12.4%.
The strong performance of the Japanese brands put them ahead of overall U.S. market leaders General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. The Ford brand was third in California in the second quarter, with a 9.6% share, and GM's Chevrolet followed at 8.2%.
The dealer group's inaugural California Auto Outlook report will be published Thursday.
Add Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus luxury brand to the tally and its April-to-June share of the California market rises to a dominating 27%.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.efda853/62
"Hey, we're gonna fix something on your car (which has likely never caused you one single problem anyway) FOR FREE !"
Ford had the big recall involving the a cruise control device used on almost all of its trucks for a long period of time.
For those of us who have been here at Edmunds for a while, the current response of Toy fans to recalls is rather funny.
GM had a bad stretch about 4 years ago. At the time, the ToyHon bunch posted comment after comment on what these recalls said about the manufacturer. Now that the shoe is on Toy's foot, apparently we are to believe that to the extent recalls say anything about manufacturers, it is good. (that is of course if ToyHon are recalling. Ford and GM recalls are still bad. :confuse: )
My '04 Camry is a good example. It was recalled because it was among a bunch in which the side curtain airbags were twisted during assembly. Turned out in my particular car, they were installed correctly.
2006 Nameplate Ranking
Problems per 100 Vehicles
Lexus 136
Mercury 151
Buick 153
Cadillac 163
Toyota 179
Acura 184
Honda 194
Notice "ToyHon" have 4 of the top 7 places?
I also notice that a Ford brand has the number two slot and two GM brands are 3 and 4, above Toy and Hon, and Acura to boot.
Does not alter my point in any way that at one time here in the Edmunds' forums, recalls were a telling sign of GM's inability to make cars, but now are meaningless diversions for Toyota.
That's exactly correct. Here's why:
When you are building mostly POOR QUALITY CARS, then recalls DO INDICATE problems with your quality.
When you have a lot of recalls but you are STILL BUILDING QUALITY CARS, then the recalls are far less of an indicator of problems with your quality.
Simple Logic to me.....
Simpleton logic, you mean.
The facts you offer to show quality place several GM makes and one Ford make above Toyota.
Moreover, many here have argued recalls are a sign of quality problems. Quite possibly the consumers who provide data on vehicle quality are influenced by recalls.
You want it both ways. The only way that works is to make silly arguments.
While I'm not saying Toyota quality is now junk because of all the recent recalls, it is rather silly to say that it's not a quality problem.
When you are building mostly POOR QUALITY CARS, then recalls DO INDICATE problems with your quality.
When you have a lot of recalls but you are STILL BUILDING QUALITY CARS, then the recalls are far less of an indicator of problems with your quality.
Now maybe someone will see it.
Bad brakes would result in a recall. A bad radio dial will not. Yet, both are issues with quality.
The way I see it, there are much stronger indicators for quality than the number of recalls for a manufacturer. But, having said that, if a particular vehicle or manufacturer has a long history of numerous recalls, I wouldn't consider it a good thing.
Second, a recall is a recall, whether it is by Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford or Rolls-Royce.
Third, as Toyota and Honda have expanded their lineups and production, they are experiencing more quality glitches. Even the head of Honda recently admitted this. (As a Honda fan, I'm glad he did. Look where decades of denial got Detroit.)
Forgive me, but given the above, I can't see the "logic" of excusing Toyota for mounting recalls, while hammering GM and Ford for the same.
It seems to me you are saying recalls mean nothing and quality is still in the eye of the opinionated. Is my assessment of your assertion correct?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
How many brands does GM have? Chevy, Pontiac, GMC, Caddy, Buick, Saturn, Saab, Saturn, Hummer . . . and how many of them are in that list? 2 . . . and in terms of sales volume, Buick and Caddy are tiny per centages of total GM sales.
How many brands does Ford have? Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Volvo, Mazda, Jaguar . . . and how many of them are in that list? 1.
It does the overwhelming majority of GM and Ford buyers who buy Chevy, Ford, Pontiac and GMC absolutely no good even if Buick, Caddy and Mercury make good cars . . . their own Chevy, Ford, Pontiac and GMC still place midpack or worse.
It should be acknowledged however the domestics are improving . . . so much that the German brands are looking bad nowadays . . . market perception however takes time and a lot of hard work to win back what was once Cavaliarly thrown away (pun intended :-)
Are they still making quality cars?
I'm exaggerating a bit to make a point, but I'm not far off. Owning a domestic is not the scary proposition it used to be, even compared to Toyota.
1. If a company self initiates a recall through internal investigations, then the recall should not count as a strike.
2. If a company initiates a recall after 1 NHTSA complaint or consumer complaint, then that is effective customer service and indicates perhaps a bad manufacturing process but a willingness to step up and assume responsibillity.
3. If a company initiates a recall after many NHTSA complaints, it indicates a bad manufacturing process and a reluctant willingness to assume responsibility.
4. If a company does NOT initiate a recall for something that fails in more than 3 % of the cars, well then, that company sucks.
What do you mean? 2.7 million vehicles that have at least one recall? Or maybe 500K individual vehicles that have 2.7 million recall issues?
A straight number doesn't mean a whole lot. Camry could have one recall, but that means over a couple hundred thousand are recalled. A car that sells only 1/4 the volume of the Camry could have 3 recalls and still have a lower bulk number.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Completely misstating an opposing argument is absolutely disingenuous.
1. If a company self initiates a recall through internal investigations, then the recall should not count as a strike.
2. If a company initiates a recall after 1 NHTSA complaint or consumer complaint, then that is effective customer service and indicates perhaps a bad manufacturing process but a willingness to step up and assume responsibillity.
3. If a company initiates a recall after many NHTSA complaints, it indicates a bad manufacturing process and a reluctant willingness to assume responsibility.
4. If a company does NOT initiate a recall for something that fails in more than 3 % of the cars, well then, that company sucks.
Based on what I have read in the newspapers, all the auto companies fall under the four categories recounted here.
In other words, there is no point to the post.