will be willing to pay a premium price for a limited service vehicle?
Here in Richmond, VA, limited access highways cross and encircle the city with traffic flows of 70-75mph. Any vehicle that cannot sustain those speeds (and achieve them quickly) would be very limiting indeed.
It is not uncommon for someone to spend $10k - $20k on a golf cart. How limiting is that? If you have a golf cart in CA it is legal on the street as long as the speed posted is 35 MPH or less. You can even get a tax credit from the Feds. I know I can go all the way from the eastern part of San Diego county to the ocean without using a limited access highway. Same route you have to take on a bicycle or motor scooter. By the way motor scooter sales are booming. They are very limited also and not cheap. I saw a Yamaha scooter for 7 grand.
People will like the convenience and cost savings of plugging in and going when the want. Nothing in a gas vehicle can compete on a per mile basis, NOTHING. Even a Moped costs more to run than the EVs that are starting to show up on the roads. Less than a penny per mile. My PU costs about 25 cents per mile for gas.
They will be built in China and India. Detroit, Tokyo & Munich will be left holding a hybrid. Say it cannot happen. Then go looking for anything at WalMart that is not made in China.
PS They offer 2000 color options. Pluc AC for the AZ, FL & CA folks.
will be willing to pay a premium price for a limited service vehicle?
If there is a perceived benefit from it some will. That benefit could be less costs in operations and maintence or more environmentaly friendly.
Here in Richmond, VA, limited access highways cross and encircle the city with traffic flows of 70-75mph. Any vehicle that cannot sustain those speeds (and achieve them quickly) would be very limiting indeed.
We have the same here in Chicago, but to tell the truth the vast majority of my driving in off the limited access highways. I would say that there is a sizable segment that either don't regularly drive those high speed roads or usually drive them when they go 20-40 MPH.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I would not advocate taking anything onto a freeway that cannot get up to 70 MPH in a real hurry. I am not convinced that we will have EVs capable of that for a quite a few years. I am more interested in the 6-10 trips per week I go into town to shop 3 miles away. The current crop would fit that need. This one from India is in that 40 MPH range. I rarely go that fast on my trips to town.
I would not advocate taking anything onto a freeway that cannot get up to 70 MPH in a real hurry.
There are EVs out there that can give even the fastest ICEs a run for their money. The Tesla is supposed to be 0-60 in the 4 second range. That being said for a year I commuted using about 10-12 miles of I-55. In that year I broke 40 MPH on I-55 maybe 5 times.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"They will be built in China and India. Detroit, Tokyo & Munich will be left holding a hybrid. Say it cannot happen. Then go looking for anything at WalMart that is not made in China."
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Hybrids. They have a place, in the middle, between those willing to give up enough for what a EV is today, not sometime in the future, and it is illogical thinking to intimate there is something "less than" about them.
Have all of us become so polarized in our thinking we don't think reducing emissions by over 60% is a good thing?
As for where they are made, we do have a global economy...
I drove the very first Prius that came to San Diego. I thought it was cool. I would have bought it if my wife had not said it was ugly and she refused to ride in it. She said it looked like a death trap.
Fast forward to the Prius II, even less attractive than the first one. Plus more complex. Many issues of stalling, poor handling, tire blowouts etc. WAAAAAY over priced compared to the original $20k price tag. The first ones carried an 8 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty, which was the biggest selling point for me. They dumped that quickly and went to the usual 3/36K warranty.
So I guess we disagree, you like hybrids, I would characterize them as throwaway cars. As larsb would say they are 90% recyclable. About the same as a beer can.
I would much rather have a small simple low speed electric vehicle to run my errands and a full sized non-hybrid vehicle for my longer trips.
One might fit your needs, not mine. That is all any of us need to keep in mind when posting here. Doesn't make one bad over another, and we can all dredge up horror stories about any type of vehicle....
If one is concerned about the environment, driving a Hybrid for longer trips, more driving and distances, makes sense over a traditional ICE. Different people have different needs.
As for where they are made, we do have a global economy
No argument there. We had the lead on electric vehicles and scrapped it. The battery of choice the NIMH was a result of all those tax dollars spent on electric vehicles. I just hate to see us lose out on every new technology. No big thing to me as I am happily retired. It is you young guys that will be paying the price down the road.
Well, there are royalties, taxes, distribution networks, etc. The economy is changing in drastic ways, and cannot be measured under the old standards, is all.
Take the top ten countries net worth, and it still takes any three combined to equal ours.
If I was so unfortunate as to have a long commute. I would not rule out the hybrids. I am more concerned about longevity than high miles. I think hybrids will prove their worth for high mileage over a short time frame. I have recommended both the Prius and HCH. I think the other hybrids are strictly fat cat feel good vehicles. The TCH may prove its worth if it gets over 40 MPG as a group.
There are electric cars that can do speeds greater than 70 MPH. It only cost quite a bit.
The rich needs to buy them first before they can mass produce them. The fewer components lead to fewer problems with electric cars. The problem we have now days they want to make money from gasoline prices not from electric prices.
We all need to remember, as a group, we are already "sold" on EV and Hybrid technologies, and it makes us become, I believe, hyper-critical of them all. And impatient for their wide-spread use.
One Day At Time, will do it here as well, but never fast enough for most of us, I suspect.
The rich needs to buy them first before they can mass produce them.
I am not plunking down 100 grand for a Tesla. I don't think that Lithium Ion batteries will make it for the long term. Too many negatives in the battery characteristics.
I just would have fun with a little runabout with plain old cheapo lead acid batteries. As long as it goes 35-40 MPH and 25 mile range, I'm happy.
Those sites are great. So do most of the conversions just bolt this big DC motor up to the bell housing and use the original transmission? It does look like more work than I would want. I can see the pleasure in building your own EV. Do you have much trouble getting them licensed. I think it would be tough in CA where you would be depriving the state of gas tax money.
If you mean do our politicians bow to the almighty lobbyist dollar. I say they do. I also think there are two forces at work in the state. One says clean air at any cost. The other says how are we going to pay for the roads. You have people driving around in Civic CNG cars paying no road tax when they fill at home. Unless they voluntarily kick in the tax. You have hybrids that are paying less per mile to use the roads than their comparable non-hybrid vehicles. I see different agencies all trying to get their agenda across to the public.
Can you give any logical reason why CARB would block the sale of diesel cars and let us buy diesel PU trucks? Or not crack down on the real cause of air pollution in the Los Angeles basin. It is not conspiracy, it is politics as usual.
Getting back to trying to get a vehicle registered after it is modified. I just spent 4 years and several thousand dollars trying to get a building permit for a 20x25 foot shop on my 5 acres. I was curious if you could ever get a modified car past the red tape this state throws at you.
Why wouldn't you be able to get it licensed? It is not that uncommon for people to modify or replace their engines. I've never heard of this being an issue when it came time to license a vehicle. The body of the vehicle has been certified from a crash worthiness perspective and it certainly won't have any trouble with emissions.
My commute to work is 8 miles each way and I live within 3 miles of all the stores that I regularly need to visit. So I could easily get by with a limited range EV. Unfortunately the roads that I have to take are all 45 mph limits and traffic typically flows at 50-55 mph. Even though my trips are short I wouldn't be making a lot of friends if my vehicle could only travel 35 mph not to mention it wouldn't even be legal to take it on these roads. I would need an EV capable of at least 60 mph. If its range was less than 100 miles that wouldn't bother me all that much. The vehicle that Mitsubishi is currently testing would fit needs. When and if it ever makes it to the US is the big question.
Even though my trips are short I wouldn't be making a lot of friends if my vehicle could only travel 35 mph not to mention it wouldn't even be legal to take it on these roads.
Are you sure? Just because the speed limit is 45 MPH doesn't mean you have to do that. While each state has different laws here in Illinois unless there is a stated minimum speed there is no minimum speed on any road.
On my daily commute I go down roads that have 45 MPH speed limits. In a car that can only go 35 MPH it would be no problem because on one road its two lanes and traffic is light so it can easily go around me. The other its also two lanes but traffic is so heavy it rarely, if ever, exceeds 35 MPH.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Any time you change the dynamics of a vehicle it changes the crash worthiness. You add a ton of batteries and the car will not handle the same. I was just curious about anyone trying to get by the DMV here in CA. Knowing the way they operate you would have to have a smog test and no one would be able to test the car. Catch 22 and no license.
I have a similar situation to yours. The main road when I leave our subdivision is posted 45 MPH. I have seen two different golf carts that use it on a regular basis. One is owned by the bail bond guy down the road. He hangs to the right lane and does not seem to be slowing down traffic like the motorized wheel chairs and bicycles do. The ones that will go 45 MPH would be adequate for my needs. The Xebra though it states a top speed of 40 MPH the fellow in the video claims it will do 48 MPH on level ground. I don't know that they are approved yet for CA roads.
I need to spend more time on those websites you posted. I am sure there are plenty of them here. If they are converted from ICE it would be hard to spot one on the road. Maybe the DMV has a special license for EV.
Any time you change the dynamics of a vehicle it changes the crash worthiness.
I'm sure that's true but I don't know if the DMV takes that into consideration. The reason I say this is that I was trying to find crash data for the RAV4 EV. I always came up with crash data for the standard RAV4. So there were two possibilities that I considered. Maybe this data existed and I just couldn't find it or maybe the NHTSA didn't require Toyota to crash test this vehicle assuming it would produce similar results as the standard RAV4. As you know this vehicle was and still is licensed in CA.
Not necessarily hard to spot - I saw one here week before last . As I approached from the rear, it was apparent that something was awry due to the low-riding rear end and rectangular structure (presumably battery box) visible below. when I was close enough to read the logo on the rear end, it said only "Electric".
If Evs can't go freeway speeds and have a range of around 100 they will remain almost as obsure as they are now.
In my neck of portland oregon, for local trips one of my regularly used roads has limits of 40 and 45 mph at times. This means real world 45 and 50. I am not willing to hold traffic up to have an extra car that isn't really functional and somewhat embarrassing to drive. To get to Home Depot, I actually have to use the freeway. No other route available. More power (pun) to those who can accept this type of vehicle. Were I a tinkerer, I might consider converting a normal car over, if I could do it for say $4k.
Now if we are talking households with two drivers and perhaps kids..there are often times where both drivers need to seperately go on the freeway to whatever obligations they simultaneously have. So now they are supposed to have three cars? Maybe in your bergs it is different. I've lived up and down the west coast...and that is how it is out here.
The colt ev will supposedly be functional (freeway speeds and 100 range)at $20k. That is probably the minimum requirements to take the ev out of the hands of the few hobbyist/enthusiasts and into a wider use audience. I would certainly entertain one at that cost and function. If they can't get that out there...then fugedaboutit. A small percent of enthusiasts not withstanding.
It puzzles me that someone who drives an STS-V (is it?) would consider for a second, a second car that can't keep up with traffic and is small and dorky. My best guess is that that certainly can't be the norm.
Why not? truth be told few cars will be able to leave an EV that can only go 35 MPH in the dust during the rush hour traffic I go through. Taking the CTS-V as opposed to a Zebra just means I hit the brakes and get behind the traffic in front of me sooner. A powerful engine like a V series has is meaningless in rush hour traffic. As I said before if traffic doesn't break 35 MPH then a car that can do 35 MPH will do just fine.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I can't say there is a why not for you. But generally, someone who would pay well over $50k for a luzury sedan that clocks sub 5 zero to sixty, is not the same person who is going to buy a tiny underpowered EV for a commute. That person would either be well off enough not to care about the price of a vehicle, or care about the vehicle experience enough to pay up for performance and quality. Is that the same person who would jump in a Zebra and enjoy it? Most folks who commute for any length can have times where traffic speeds and slows and/or a need to take a freeway. I would also bear in mind that if the Zebra user stopped for dinner after work, you are now out of traffic time and your car is too slow for the flow. And if the commute is short, is it worth it to maintain a second vehicle? Not to mention perceived safety issues with the small ev.
At any rate, if it works for you, great! I salute anyone who finds a way to send less money out of the country and into the hands of the oil country goofballs.
Well for one the caddy is a long term purchase, by that I mean its going to be in th family for a long long time. Something that is used sparingly like me and She Who Must be Obeyed goes out to dinner, a movie a show or something of the like. To be fair if I had to pay $50k for it I would have just bought the regular CTS.
For daily drives, cars that will be used more often and get far more miles on it every year, I am more fiscally responsible. I expect to buy three or even four daily drives before the caddy gets retired.
Most folks who commute for any length can have times where traffic speeds and slows and/or a need to take a freeway.
My commute is 10.5 miles and takes 35 minutes (do the math thats an average speed of 18 MPH). To be honest there are a few times that traffic can get 40+ MPH, but thats only for a short time and a car doing 35 MPH will be right behind me within a minute or two.
To take the freeway is impossible because they are toll ways here and if I took them my commute would increase by about 60-65% and it is a parking lot, barely breaking 40 MPH.
I would also bear in mind that if the Zebra user stopped for dinner after work, you are now out of traffic time and your car is too slow for the flow.
If I were to stop for dinner after work it would be to pick up take home so traffic wouldn't let up much. If I were going to dine out I would meet she who must be obeyed at home first.
Not to mention perceived safety issues with the small ev.
Your going to have safety issues with any car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
someone who would pay well over $50k for a luzury sedan
I don't think the desire for an EV is as much demographic as you think. I would like to have one for the sake of not being tied to the oil companies. When I survey my trips over a period of the week, most could be handled at under 35 MPH and in less than 10 miles total. It has very little to do with saving money for me. We have 4 vehicles now for the two of us. The Lexus rarely gets driven. The Mazda only gets driven when friends and family need a loaner car. The RV gets taken out to charge the batteries on occasion. Most of the miles are on my PU truck. It is 16 months old with less than 6000 miles. It would really be a waste of money and more of a toy than practical. Then what is money for but to spend and enjoy life.
I submit that you as someone who would be happy with a 35 mph and small range ev are a breed few and far between. Hasn't this type of vehicle been around for years? I've seen one in my two years here in portland. If people were clammering for them, I suspect there would be more. We need to do better for any kind of widespread acceptance.
Hasn't this type of vehicle been around for years?
Actually no they haven't. The golf cart types are all 25 MPH limited by law. Not legal in CA on any street posted over 35 MPH. The ones just now coming along that go 40+MPH are a new breed. Also somewhat less money. I know the GEM that was sold around here was about $14k and up. I imagine the made in China cuts the cost in half. I think the one from India would have a better shot with AC and heat.
The electric motor takes the 3CC to 60mph in just 10sec and on to a top speed of 85mph – without contributing to local air pollution.
The 3CC has a range of 180 miles and, like existing petrol-electric hybrid designs such as the Honda Civic IMA or Toyota Prius, charges its batteries under braking.
Volvo has not said when electric motors might be added to its production cars, but promises it will develop the 3CC concept further.
"TRL’s battery operates on physical chemistry principles different from those of conventional batteries. It resembles nothing on the market. The battery utilizes materials that are plentiful, inexpensive and far less polluting than other battery devices. Fabricated almost entirely of carbon and plastic, the battery has the ability to withstand severe electrical abuse, including total discharge or disuse for prolonged time periods.
A very immediate and attractive application is the “plug-in” hybrid-electric car. These cars have been around for years but until now, the power sources have been very unreliable. The TRL battery provides a means to achieve hybrid electric vehicles with a range of 75 or more miles per charge. Tests from TRL confirm that a typical 4-passenger electric car powered by less than 1000 pounds of TRL batteries would have a range of between 75 and 100 mile depending upon speed and road conditions."
Sounds hard to believe. It would be a great big paycheck for the company that gets them to market. It will take just such a storage device to make EVs really practical.
1000 lbs for a 75-100 mile range is not very good. The typical EV can travel about 4-5 miles per kWh. So we are talking about a battery that is at least 40 lbs per kWh. That's slightly worse than the 26 kWh NiMH battery pack that weighed 900 lbs in the RAV4 EV. Li-ion battery packs that are now being developed are less than 20 lbs per kWh. If this new carbon/plastic battery represents a significant cost savings then it definitely will be appealing for use in hybrids and short range EVs. It won't be that attractive for anyone that wants a longer range.
One spec I didn't see in that article was power density, which is different from energy storage. This affects how quickly a car can accelerate. A battery may be able to provide 100 miles of range but if 0-60 times are around 20 seconds it won't be too appealing.
The appeal for me was the ability to completely discharge or sit discharged with no negative impact. That is the real problem with NIMH or lead acid batteries. Plus cost was about equal to lead acid or about 1/3rd the cost of NIMH and a fraction of Lithium Ion batteries. I am going to be happy with 45 MPH and a 40 mile range under $10k. I don't see any US companies building golf carts that cheap.
I have no idea what Li-ion batteries actually cost. I hear figures of $1,000 per kWh from a couple of domestic companies. But then I read about vehicles like Mitsubishi's Colt EV that is supposed to have a 16 kWh battery pack and only cost $18,000. It doesn't seem possible to make an $18,000 vehicle if the batteries cost $16,000. Then there's a Chinese company that is going to be producing an EV next year capable of 200 miles that sells for $28,000. 200 mile range will require at least 40 kWh of energy so, again, the price of the batteries must be significantly lower than $1000 per kWh. Since these are both future vehicles I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I was going by the CalCars Li-ion upgrade for the Prius. It was $12k and gave you I think 30 miles at 34 MPH or less. I think the batteries for the RAV4-EV were close to $20k to replace.
From CalCars:
The EDrive lithium battery system is 9kWh or kilowatt-hours (7 times larger than the Prius NiMH battery). The charger used by the EDrive system is 1 kilowatt (kw), about the same as a hair dryer. If the battery were totally depleted, it could take 9 hours (9hrs * 1kW = 9kWh) to charge the battery.
So you are paying $12k for 9kWh of Lithium Ion batteries. Or $1333 per kWh. So to get 40kWh would cost $53,000. Something does not add up. Maybe the Chinese are building some pirated Lithium batteries. I would not consider a car with Lithium Ion until they were proven on the road for at least 10 years.
I would not consider a car with Lithium Ion until they were proven on the road for at least 10 years.
In 10 years there will probably be something else, maybe ultra-capacitors. I will definitely be a little leary of the first Li-ion battery packs for EVs but if the warranty is strong enough I'd take the plunge but not at $1,000+ per kWh.
I don't know if you can get replacement batteries for the RAV4 EV. When you could get them I heard the price was $27k for the NiMH. Nickel has actually gotten pretty expensive. Li-ion has the potential to be a cheaper battery to produce from a materials perspective. A123 Systems and Altair Nanotechnologies have reportedly developed inherently safe Li-ion chemistries. Altairnano has one in a vehicle which is currently being road tested. They've stated costs of around $1,000 per kWh but also say that with the right manufacturing capacity this would be cut to less than half of that.
The Chinese Thunder Sky batteries have been manufactured since 1998, and they have been available to EV experimenters over here for several years. I did a search on the Yahoo EV discussion list, and got about 500 hits on "Thunder Sky." Here are some posts discussing the batteries (note, these are mostly technical, and not very interesting, this is just to show that American EV hobbyists are using them.)
I was just wondering how easy it is to get those Chinese batteries, is all. Obviously for the market to grow, they will need a distribution network, etc.
If those specs are correct then the price and the fact that they don't wear out make it an extremely attractive battery option. The power and weight densities are less than Li-ion but still adequate. The question I have is if this is an actual product or a concept that hasn't gone beyond the lab and exists only on paper? Is this company putting the information out there in an attempt to sell batteries or attract some venture capital?
Comments
Here in Richmond, VA, limited access highways cross and encircle the city with traffic flows of 70-75mph. Any vehicle that cannot sustain those speeds (and achieve them quickly) would be very limiting indeed.
People will like the convenience and cost savings of plugging in and going when the want. Nothing in a gas vehicle can compete on a per mile basis, NOTHING. Even a Moped costs more to run than the EVs that are starting to show up on the roads. Less than a penny per mile. My PU costs about 25 cents per mile for gas.
PS
They offer 2000 color options. Pluc AC for the AZ, FL & CA folks.
If there is a perceived benefit from it some will. That benefit could be less costs in operations and maintence or more environmentaly friendly.
Here in Richmond, VA, limited access highways cross and encircle the city with traffic flows of 70-75mph. Any vehicle that cannot sustain those speeds (and achieve them quickly) would be very limiting indeed.
We have the same here in Chicago, but to tell the truth the vast majority of my driving in off the limited access highways. I would say that there is a sizable segment that either don't regularly drive those high speed roads or usually drive them when they go 20-40 MPH.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There are EVs out there that can give even the fastest ICEs a run for their money. The Tesla is supposed to be 0-60 in the 4 second range. That being said for a year I commuted using about 10-12 miles of I-55. In that year I broke 40 MPH on I-55 maybe 5 times.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Hybrids. They have a place, in the middle, between those willing to give up enough for what a EV is today, not sometime in the future, and it is illogical thinking to intimate there is something "less than" about them.
Have all of us become so polarized in our thinking we don't think reducing emissions by over 60% is a good thing?
As for where they are made, we do have a global economy...
I drove the very first Prius that came to San Diego. I thought it was cool. I would have bought it if my wife had not said it was ugly and she refused to ride in it. She said it looked like a death trap.
Fast forward to the Prius II, even less attractive than the first one. Plus more complex. Many issues of stalling, poor handling, tire blowouts etc. WAAAAAY over priced compared to the original $20k price tag. The first ones carried an 8 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty, which was the biggest selling point for me. They dumped that quickly and went to the usual 3/36K warranty.
So I guess we disagree, you like hybrids, I would characterize them as throwaway cars. As larsb would say they are 90% recyclable. About the same as a beer can.
I would much rather have a small simple low speed electric vehicle to run my errands and a full sized non-hybrid vehicle for my longer trips.
One might fit your needs, not mine. That is all any of us need to keep in mind when posting here. Doesn't make one bad over another, and we can all dredge up horror stories about any type of vehicle....
If one is concerned about the environment, driving a Hybrid for longer trips, more driving and distances, makes sense over a traditional ICE. Different people have different needs.
No argument there. We had the lead on electric vehicles and scrapped it. The battery of choice the NIMH was a result of all those tax dollars spent on electric vehicles. I just hate to see us lose out on every new technology. No big thing to me as I am happily retired. It is you young guys that will be paying the price down the road.
Take the top ten countries net worth, and it still takes any three combined to equal ours.
The rich needs to buy them first before they can mass produce them.
The fewer components lead to fewer problems with electric cars.
The problem we have now days they want to make money from gasoline prices not from electric prices.
Electric History:
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectrica.htm
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
http://www.zapworld.com/
Now:
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
We all need to remember, as a group, we are already "sold" on EV and Hybrid technologies, and it makes us become, I believe, hyper-critical of them all. And impatient for their wide-spread use.
One Day At Time, will do it here as well, but never fast enough for most of us, I suspect.
I am not plunking down 100 grand for a Tesla. I don't think that Lithium Ion batteries will make it for the long term. Too many negatives in the battery characteristics.
I just would have fun with a little runabout with plain old cheapo lead acid batteries. As long as it goes 35-40 MPH and 25 mile range, I'm happy.
This is my favorite so far.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
There are plenty of used EVs for sale there, too, at very reasonable prices. Here's mine:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/775
Can you give any logical reason why CARB would block the sale of diesel cars and let us buy diesel PU trucks? Or not crack down on the real cause of air pollution in the Los Angeles basin. It is not conspiracy, it is politics as usual.
Getting back to trying to get a vehicle registered after it is modified. I just spent 4 years and several thousand dollars trying to get a building permit for a 20x25 foot shop on my 5 acres. I was curious if you could ever get a modified car past the red tape this state throws at you.
My commute to work is 8 miles each way and I live within 3 miles of all the stores that I regularly need to visit. So I could easily get by with a limited range EV. Unfortunately the roads that I have to take are all 45 mph limits and traffic typically flows at 50-55 mph. Even though my trips are short I wouldn't be making a lot of friends if my vehicle could only travel 35 mph not to mention it wouldn't even be legal to take it on these roads. I would need an EV capable of at least 60 mph. If its range was less than 100 miles that wouldn't bother me all that much. The vehicle that Mitsubishi is currently testing would fit needs. When and if it ever makes it to the US is the big question.
Yes, mine uses the original transmission. Mostly, I just leave it in fourth, though.
Plenty of these in CA, so they must be easy to license.
Are you sure? Just because the speed limit is 45 MPH doesn't mean you have to do that. While each state has different laws here in Illinois unless there is a stated minimum speed there is no minimum speed on any road.
On my daily commute I go down roads that have 45 MPH speed limits. In a car that can only go 35 MPH it would be no problem because on one road its two lanes and traffic is light so it can easily go around me. The other its also two lanes but traffic is so heavy it rarely, if ever, exceeds 35 MPH.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have a similar situation to yours. The main road when I leave our subdivision is posted 45 MPH. I have seen two different golf carts that use it on a regular basis. One is owned by the bail bond guy down the road. He hangs to the right lane and does not seem to be slowing down traffic like the motorized wheel chairs and bicycles do. The ones that will go 45 MPH would be adequate for my needs. The Xebra though it states a top speed of 40 MPH the fellow in the video claims it will do 48 MPH on level ground. I don't know that they are approved yet for CA roads.
I'm sure that's true but I don't know if the DMV takes that into consideration. The reason I say this is that I was trying to find crash data for the RAV4 EV. I always came up with crash data for the standard RAV4. So there were two possibilities that I considered. Maybe this data existed and I just couldn't find it or maybe the NHTSA didn't require Toyota to crash test this vehicle assuming it would produce similar results as the standard RAV4. As you know this vehicle was and still is licensed in CA.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/ncap/
In my neck of portland oregon, for local trips one of my regularly used roads has limits of 40 and 45 mph at times. This means real world 45 and 50. I am not willing to hold traffic up to have an extra car that isn't really functional and somewhat embarrassing to drive. To get to Home Depot, I actually have to use the freeway. No other route available. More power (pun) to those who can accept this type of vehicle. Were I a tinkerer, I might consider converting a normal car over, if I could do it for say $4k.
Now if we are talking households with two drivers and perhaps kids..there are often times where both drivers need to seperately go on the freeway to whatever obligations they simultaneously have. So now they are supposed to have three cars? Maybe in your bergs it is different. I've lived up and down the west coast...and that is how it is out here.
The colt ev will supposedly be functional (freeway speeds and 100 range)at $20k. That is probably the minimum requirements to take the ev out of the hands of the few hobbyist/enthusiasts and into a wider use audience. I would certainly entertain one at that cost and function. If they can't get that out there...then fugedaboutit. A small percent of enthusiasts not withstanding.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
At any rate, if it works for you, great! I salute anyone who finds a way to send less money out of the country and into the hands of the oil country goofballs.
For daily drives, cars that will be used more often and get far more miles on it every year, I am more fiscally responsible. I expect to buy three or even four daily drives before the caddy gets retired.
Most folks who commute for any length can have times where traffic speeds and slows and/or a need to take a freeway.
My commute is 10.5 miles and takes 35 minutes (do the math thats an average speed of 18 MPH). To be honest there are a few times that traffic can get 40+ MPH, but thats only for a short time and a car doing 35 MPH will be right behind me within a minute or two.
To take the freeway is impossible because they are toll ways here and if I took them my commute would increase by about 60-65% and it is a parking lot, barely breaking 40 MPH.
I would also bear in mind that if the Zebra user stopped for dinner after work, you are now out of traffic time and your car is too slow for the flow.
If I were to stop for dinner after work it would be to pick up take home so traffic wouldn't let up much. If I were going to dine out I would meet she who must be obeyed at home first.
Not to mention perceived safety issues with the small ev.
Your going to have safety issues with any car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't think the desire for an EV is as much demographic as you think. I would like to have one for the sake of not being tied to the oil companies. When I survey my trips over a period of the week, most could be handled at under 35 MPH and in less than 10 miles total. It has very little to do with saving money for me. We have 4 vehicles now for the two of us. The Lexus rarely gets driven. The Mazda only gets driven when friends and family need a loaner car. The RV gets taken out to charge the batteries on occasion. Most of the miles are on my PU truck. It is 16 months old with less than 6000 miles. It would really be a waste of money and more of a toy than practical. Then what is money for but to spend and enjoy life.
Gotta live this image down:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LF-wy_sPUaA
Actually no they haven't. The golf cart types are all 25 MPH limited by law. Not legal in CA on any street posted over 35 MPH. The ones just now coming along that go 40+MPH are a new breed. Also somewhat less money. I know the GEM that was sold around here was about $14k and up. I imagine the made in China cuts the cost in half. I think the one from India would have a better shot with AC and heat.
The 3CC has a range of 180 miles and, like existing petrol-electric hybrid designs such as the Honda Civic IMA or Toyota Prius, charges its batteries under braking.
Volvo has not said when electric motors might be added to its production cars, but promises it will develop the 3CC concept further.
http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=211432
"TRL’s battery operates on physical chemistry principles different from those of conventional batteries. It resembles nothing on the market. The battery utilizes materials that are plentiful, inexpensive and far less polluting than other battery devices. Fabricated almost entirely of carbon and plastic, the battery has the ability to withstand severe electrical abuse, including total discharge or disuse for prolonged time periods.
A very immediate and attractive application is the “plug-in” hybrid-electric car. These cars have been around for years but until now, the power sources have been very unreliable. The TRL battery provides a means to achieve hybrid electric vehicles with a range of 75 or more miles per charge. Tests from TRL confirm that a typical 4-passenger electric car powered by less than 1000 pounds of TRL batteries would have a range of between 75 and 100 mile depending upon speed and road conditions."
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/10/16/025214.html
One spec I didn't see in that article was power density, which is different from energy storage. This affects how quickly a car can accelerate. A battery may be able to provide 100 miles of range but if 0-60 times are around 20 seconds it won't be too appealing.
From CalCars:
The EDrive lithium battery system is 9kWh or kilowatt-hours (7 times larger than the Prius NiMH battery). The charger used by the EDrive system is 1 kilowatt (kw), about the same as a hair dryer. If the battery were totally depleted, it could take 9 hours (9hrs * 1kW = 9kWh) to charge the battery.
So you are paying $12k for 9kWh of Lithium Ion batteries. Or $1333 per kWh. So to get 40kWh would cost $53,000. Something does not add up. Maybe the Chinese are building some pirated Lithium batteries. I would not consider a car with Lithium Ion until they were proven on the road for at least 10 years.
http://everspring.net/product-battery.htm
They're also claiming a shelf life of 10+ years.
In 10 years there will probably be something else, maybe ultra-capacitors. I will definitely be a little leary of the first Li-ion battery packs for EVs but if the warranty is strong enough I'd take the plunge but not at $1,000+ per kWh.
I don't know if you can get replacement batteries for the RAV4 EV. When you could get them I heard the price was $27k for the NiMH. Nickel has actually gotten pretty expensive. Li-ion has the potential to be a cheaper battery to produce from a materials perspective. A123 Systems and Altair Nanotechnologies have reportedly developed inherently safe Li-ion chemistries. Altairnano has one in a vehicle which is currently being road tested. They've stated costs of around $1,000 per kWh but also say that with the right manufacturing capacity this would be cut to less than half of that.
http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView.asp?BzID=546&ResLibraryID=174- 26&Category=856
The performance claims have now been demonstrated. It will take time to see if the claims regarding battery longevity also prove to be true.
The Chinese Thunder Sky batteries have been manufactured since 1998, and they have been available to EV experimenters over here for several years. I did a search on the Yahoo EV discussion list, and got about 500 hits on "Thunder Sky." Here are some posts discussing the batteries (note, these are mostly technical, and not very interesting, this is just to show that American EV hobbyists are using them.)
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/29330
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/30050
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/31071
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/44780
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/47466
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/53155
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/55546
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/69807
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/56811
To me the beauty of an EV would be the elimination of so much wasted crap in all new cars today. Keep us posted on any news you might hear.
http://www.hybridnrg.com/
I was just wondering how easy it is to get those Chinese batteries, is all. Obviously for the market to grow, they will need a distribution network, etc.