EVs will have all these toys. So it reduces your range some, big deal. Seriously how many times a year do people take trips that are over 200 miles one-way? I think someone said that the EV is definitely not suitable for everyone. Its only suitable for 90% of the population.
Driving an EV will definitely involve trade-offs, at least at first. I personally find that paying $50 to fill up my car with gas every 10 days is a nuisance.
Charging at 140 amps/3500 volts is a pretty hefty rate. Has there been any independent verification that the EEStor batteries can actually charge that quick? (without blowing up or catching fire of course...... :surprise:)
I live in Phoenix AZ, and I take about three trips per year MAX that are 200 miles or more one way.
Two of those are vacations to my home state of Texas, where I go for a family reunion every summer and another visit at Christmas time.
My commute is 14 miles round trip daily.
A less-than-$10,000 EV would be perfect for me for my daily work. I'm on the list to test drive a Xebra when they get one available.
Being that it has no A/C, I would only be able to use it for about 5 months out of the year, but that's five months I would be polluting virtually ZERO with my vehicle.
Well, according to the Insurance companies, that would be millions, tens of millions of Americans, monthly
Well with a population of around 300 million even a few tens of millions of Americans would be around 10% of the population. So the claim that a EV with a 200 mile range would be doable for 90% of the population holds true.
lets face it the average car is driven less than 50 miles on any given day.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'd say that I take on average 2 trips a year where I drive over 200 miles one-way. I don't think that I'm that atypical. And no I don't live in Manhattan. I would probably have a second car but let's say that I couldn't afford this. Well the money I'd save on gas would more than cover the rental of a traditional car twice a year.
People need to realize that operators of EVs will adopt different habits. The only time they will ever need to charge 50 kWh in a hurry is on the rare, lengthy trip. All other times they will be topping of at home or while they're parked at work. Time doesn't matter that much here. Will this be a hassle? No more than plugging in your cell phone to re-charge. And when you are on a lengthy trip chances are it will involve driving on an interstate. So these high power charging stations would be spread out like the rest stops. In fact, that's probably where they'd be located. There's no need for a system like we have now with a gas station, in this case charging station, on every corner.
Most EV's including my (very old) one, and the GM EV1, have separate accessory batteries, just like your gasoline car does.
The exception is heat and air conditioning. A small heater (a few hundred watts) can run off the accessory battery, but larger heaters / AC can sometimes run off the main battery pack. Often, an AC compressor runs off the drive shaft, just as it would in a standard car.
Now, stop and realize, you can go down to the appliance store and buy a 1000 watt air conditioner which can cool your whole bedroom. So even a few hundred watts goes a long way in a car interior.
Therefore, running heat/AC can have an effect on range (just like AC affects your mileage), but it is not all that significant. Consider a 50KWH battery or supercapacitor pack, off of which we run 1000 watts (1KW) of accessories. All by themselves, they would drain the pack in 50 hours. But, that 50KWH pack, running a car for 200 miles, will be dead in 4 hours (at 50mph, 200 divided by 50 equals 4.) In four hours, the accessories only have time to use 4KWH of power (8%.) Therefore my range will be reduced by 16 miles, from 200 miles to 184 miles.
Now, stop and realize, you can go down to the appliance store and buy a 1000 watt air conditioner which can cool your whole bedroom. So even a few hundred watts goes a long way in a car interior.
Yeah but my bedroom isn't encircled by glass and left on its own won't hit 125+ degrees in a matter of minutes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yeah but my bedroom isn't encircled by glass and left on its own won't hit 125+ degrees in a matter of minutes.
Well, I was just illustrating why a 1000 watt AC/Heater unit works fine in a car.
I heat my EV with 500 watts, and I'm happy with that. The EV1, I believe, had a three position heater switch for 500, 1000, and 1500 watts. Typically, I assume, you wouldn't need to leave it on 1500 more than a few minutes. But even left running continuously at that setting, it doesn't change the end result in my illustration very much.
I am just illustrating that what works for a room in a house that may only have one window (maybe two) where there isn't direct sunlight shining in all day and that has curtains you can close might not work in a situation where you are surrounded by windows, you have sunlight shining through all the time and you can't close drapes.
In other words a car will need to use a lot more energy per cubic foot to keep cool than a room in a house would. I can turn the A/C off in my house and my bedroom will stay cool for some time afterwards. I can turn the A/C off in my car and it will heat up instantly.
How many watts do you use to cool your car?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Its not like running your air conditioner in an ICE car is free. I'd guess that my mileage decreases by around 5%. A heater in an ICE will actually be more efficient because you get to use the otherwise wasted heat of the engine. Score one small point for ICEs.
Sorry, here in Michigan we don't get that many hot days. I roll my window down.
I figured the 500/1000/1500 watt heat pump in the EV1 was probably a good guide. It could operate as a heater or a cooler.
But since this issue came up, I checked Wikipedia. The page said automotive AC takes about 5 hp, which translates roughly to about 3700 watts. I also found a Chinese webpage advertising automotive AC systems rated at 3500 watts.
This suggests that the EV1 system was either a bit underpowered, or more efficient than typical AC.
Anyway, this means I have to update my example. In the worst case scenario, with 3500w AC running full blast for 4 hours while the driver exhausts his driving range, the AC could take 25% of the range away, dropping from 200 miles to 150.
the glass shouldnt matter too much, there are numerous coatings and tints that can be applied to keep most of the heat out, and once you are rolling you can crack a window open or open a vent. Ive never been in a car that was being driven that stayed to hot to drive, even without a/c. I seen a solar fan (infomercial) you roll up in your window th help cool your car while its parked, that could easily be incorporated into a cars design if there was a need, as for the one on t.v., I think your just giving a thief easier access to get into the car.
I think the whole idea of electric vehicles is great, but i drive 97 miles per day round trip for work and i dont think my employer wants to install electrical outlets in the parking lot for its employees to "re-fuel" their vehicles. Hilly terrain and the stop and go traffic of 2 towns between would definately hurt my potential range.
There is still alot of people that need to buy in to the idea before it would really be worth investing in (purchasing vehicle) personally.
They could sell a thousand cars tomorrow, but how many places other than your house could you re-charge?
HOw about slot cars? Run on electricity could charge while they drive on the freeway Have small battery for say 20 miles independent driving. Charge at work, store, home, and solar panels. One hops in the car, drives to the freeway, plugs in the slot, reads a book, 30miles later gets out of the slot, drives 5 miles to work on local roads. A computer on the car could calculate electricity usage and you could pull into a station once a month to pay your bill. what do you think?
Like I have posted elsewhere, zealots, in anything will make an argument. We all "like" alternative fuels, and electric cars. But please don't get defensive and make arguments, people, like I see above. All windows, hot sun, make all the difference. Talk to someone who is expert in it. A sedan, like the Camry, uses an AC unit that in a home, would render a master bedroom cold enough to hang beef. Yes, it is that large. Coatings, or none, the heat from the windows makes it necessary.
Just try and understand one of the most popular options on autos today are dual-zone AC. People, more than the few hundred here, just won't buy any car that won't enable them to blast the air, go 70, and less than 200 miles per charge.....If they would, we would have those models on sale now.
Zealots. Well, we are all zealots for our particular point of view. That's the purpose of discussion boards like these.
As for the AC issue, well, what's needed is a little perspective. If you would rather be able to blast max A/C in your face for four hours than save $200/month in fuel costs, that's your choice. It just doesn't seem like enough of a reason to nix the whole EV idea to me.
Compressor-based A/C is a less-than-optimum idea in EVs. Some of the gas conversion EVs I've seen have this, but the problem is that, unlike a gas car, the motor doesn't run all the time. If you turn on your AC in the parking lot, you'll get nothing until you get the car on the road. An efficient heat pump design, like the EV1 had, probably makes more sense.
Next, EVs do not have to be an all-or-nothing idea. Nobody is advocating replacing everybody's cars next week. Imagine we were talking about the viability of motorcycles. On the one side people would talk about the great fuel mileage, ease of parking, low cost, etc. On the other side, there would be complaints about cargo room, safety issues, winter driving, etc.
With the proper perspective, of course, all these people would realize that motorcycles are great, but not for everybody.
The marketplace has allowed the motorcycle niche to exist. Why should there not be an EV niche?
Just to make everything clear I wasn't questioning the usefulness of an EV because of the A/C I was just addressing the amount of power needed to run an A/C in a car. That is all.
I do think there is a very strong market for a good commuter EV.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My point was, exactly yours. There should be a niche for a 100% EV. But getting others to understand that is exactly what it will remain, a small niche, until better technology is introduced, and better government incentives, is difficult. Zealots get so defensive.
Fully 30% of the country doesn't need a huge AC unit blasting away in the summer, for the kind of use they are putting their ICE's to, IMO. The trouble is, many are always "thinking" of how they might possibly use a car, once in a blue moon, rather than the reality of how they do....
All i was really trying to say was if you can get me an ev that can go about 175mi. on a charge figuring in stop and go traffic and hills, make it affordable, and dont even bother with a/c,(i would also like to be able to run at 60-65mph) I would definitely look a purchasing one. Although heat doesent bother me, I would like a heater for the colder days and to eliminate a foggy windshield. Afterall I live in Nebraska, I've come to work and its been 80F and left at midnite and it was 40F (more than once).
And if not because of the heat, I would still tint the windows for looks, 5% uv light emitting on the rear, 35% uv light emitting on drivers and passengers, i would go 20% but the law dont permit that dark on drivers and passengers windows in NE.(yep ive been pulled over ticketed and had to remove it before i left)
Any one who is really truly buying an ev to save money is likely to opt out of power accessories and even a/c if its not standard and diminishes efficiency.
Just think, if ev's were affordable for all (15k - 30k), charging stations plentiful and fast, enough people may invest to really put a substantial dent in the oil industry to where prices would have to drop to get customers, and I could afford to drive my 6mpg. 74 chevelle on cruise nights :P
Clearly the way this is going to happen, for the masses, is first through hybrids, then plug-in hybrids, then serial hybrids, then pure EVs.
In fact, we really should have skipped directly ahead to serial hybrids. A serial hybrid is an EV, with a small ICE to charge the batteries. This gives drivers the best of both worlds. You may have a rechargable battery pack good for 50, 100, or 200 miles, which you charge from your garage. The electric drive motor is full-sized, and powerful. For most trips, you just use electricity. For long trips, the small gas/diesel motor runs to extend your range out to several hundred miles. The ICE could even be enclosed in a removable module, to increase storage space when you don't need it.
In this type of hybrid, the gas or diesel engine simply charges the batteries - it does not turn the wheels. Therefore it can be very small, and it runs at a constant speed, right in the most efficient part of its powerband - giving it an extrememly high equivalent mileage.
The hybrids that some of us drive right now are parallel hybrids. Both electric and gas motors connect to the wheels. Since it is expected that the gas engine does most of the work, it is full sized, and the electric drive system is underpowered and designed only for limited driving.
If fuel saving and emissions reduction is the goal, the parallel hybrid doesn't even make much sense, compared to the serial version. It's also simpler from an engineering standpoint (because you don't need two transmission systems.) I'll leave it to the readers to figure out why we have been given parallel hybrids.
Parallel hybrids seem to have only come about because of the lack of sufficient cost-effective battery power to be the primary vehicle motivation. The way it is being used in some vehicles is as an alternative to using a supercharger, but resulting in higher gas mileage; e.g., getting more power & mileage out of a smaller engine. I do feel that this has resulted in having some people realize the potential benefits of battery usage and to begin to overcome an aversion to high voltage in vehicles (safety).
Thanks for your point regarding serial hybrids. Although I realize that there are some aftermarket companies that are building plug-in add-ons to increase the battery power available to the existing parallel hybrids, I had actually thought that the whole idea behind a plug-in hybrid was to switch to using electric as the primary motivation with a smaller engine that is used only to recharge the batteries when on extended trips. I was certainly hoping that this was the way the new Toyota Prius was to be configured, but perhaps we'll have to wait a little longer.
Since most of us probably can't afford a 2nd vehicle, which is used only as a commuter (EV only) or don't want to deal with the hassle of renting a vehicle for trips (I don't think I've ever gotten a vehicle that I acually liked when renting one), I think that the serial hybrid will be the way to go for the near term, at least until such time as EV only vehicles can have a range of ~ 200 miles to a charge (including the use of those pesky options), and there is an infrastructure in place to allow for quick recharging.
Wouldn't it also be great if the small recharging engine could be easily removed so that the weight would not be a constant drag when the vehicle is only being used in commuting mode?
Since most of us probably can't afford a 2nd vehicle, which is used only as a commuter (EV only) or don't want to deal with the hassle of renting a vehicle for trips (I don't think I've ever gotten a vehicle that I acually liked when renting one),
How many households out there have two cars? Every couple I know have two cars, one for him, one for her (or one for him and one for him or one for her and one for her just to be inclusive ). I would hazard to guess that the vast majority of them can do with one EV and one ICE car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
From what I am reading here, it gives those of us supporting alternative energy a bad name, they go on and on about hating AC or even MP3 Players and decent sound systems as if they were my Great-Grandfather, LOL!
Some of us are not misers, don't want to coast to ever intersection, enjoy creature comforts, and don't think they are "bad"....
From what I am reading here, it gives those of us supporting alternative energy a bad name, they go on and on about hating AC or even MP3 Players and decent sound systems as if they were my Great-Grandfather, LOL!
You know, all it takes is a little out-of-the-box engineering to fix these little details. The EV1, for instance, was on the right track using an efficient heat pump (1500 watts) instead of a 3500-watt compressor based AC system. In average use, this much power shouldn't knock more than a few percent off your driving range.
I've since talked with EV owners who have experimented with other ideas. For instance, putting a refrigeration unit in the car that freezes ice while the car is charging. The ice, if well insulated, can last the whole day.
Sound systems, windshield wipers, headlights, etc. are not an issue at all. My EV, like most, has a separate accessory battery for these things. They have no impact on the range of the vehicle whatsoever.
I mostly agree, however my RV has its own battery for accessories, and it is easily drained on longer trips, so it is a consideration. 600 Watt sound systems, laptops and even faxes plugged in do take their toll...
The problem with "enthuasists" is that they are really excited and true believers. That isn't bad. It leads to inovation and new ideas. However MOST buyers don't want to make any concesions in how they drive, or won't for more than a few months. They are not willing to "coast" or drive 55 or under. We cannot change in a few years, the habits of the past 50.
While promoting alternative fuels and systems, we need to keep in mind what in the "real" world will sell, and keep bringing people back for repeat business, just as Toyota and all makers must do. No one will make a profit just selling to the "true believers".
...I mostly agree, however my RV has its own battery for accessories, and it is easily drained on longer trips, so it is a consideration.
Nobody's advocating electric RVs just yet...
Laptops and faxes are negligible loads. 600 watt sound systems don't draw 600 watts continuously (you'd be deaf if they did.)
Anything which can run off an a typical car battery can run off an accessory battery in an EV just fine. Why wouldn't it? As you point out, if you put a ridiculous load on your accessory battery, it will go dead. This will happen regardless of the car you drive.
...The problem with "enthuasists" is that they are really excited and true believers. However MOST buyers don't want to make any concesions in how they drive
Gosh, 'zealots' and now 'enthusiasts' and 'true believers'. Enough with the labels. If the implication is that my judgement is clouded by my beliefs, then my facts should be easy to disprove. We're talking technology, not religion. So let's focus on the facts, OK?
I don't want to make concessions in the way I drive either. I accept one concession, and that's limited range. I take this as a trade-off for the benefits of EV driving (reduced fuel cost, mainly.) What is this focus on accessories? I think I have shown that this is a non-issue. A/C or heat can have an effect on range, usually just a few percent. Nothing else is going to have any effect.
...They are not willing to "coast" or drive 55 or under.
Modern freeway-capable EVs usually do 75-80 or better. This is not an intrinsic limitation - top speeds are often limited in EVs because of single-gear transmissions. This can easily be a consumer option - the Tesla has two gears to get to 130mph, for example. In most non-mainstream and NEV cars, manufacturers simply save the cost of making a multi-gear transmission. I am not advocating this sort of car for mainstream vehicles, unless buyers can opt for a better transmission.
...No one will make a profit just selling to the "true believers".
I agree. That's why EVs need to get out of this silly little hobbyist niche. Personally, I'm excited about the imported Miles XS200 car:
Because, for the first time, we have a car with a decent range for an affordable price. I hope it lives up to its description. If we can just get a couple of cars like this out there, I think interest in EVs could increase.
Well, no need for the quotes, or [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat's, Apeweek......you are preaching to the choir here.
My main point wasn't with you, just because i click reply to your post to stay in topic. I have previously posted half of all users could do just fine, and give up nearly nothing with a newer design EV.
Understand that the public coming to these forums really are put-off by enthuasists/zealots/true believers talk of coasting, doing without, complicated "improvements" home maintenance etc.
If we believe in the technology, people need to keep in mind the average automobile user will want the EV's because they just make sense, and are no sacrafice, not think of them as something only for purists and granola crunchers.
"That swamp thing has been around nearly as long as I have! The one we had, back in the 1940's mounted on the side window, air blew in, and passed over water/ice. It also blew lots of water onto your neck and face!" :P
The one we had, back in the 1940's mounted on the side window, air blew in, and passed over water/ice.
Yep, I remember traveling in the car with one of those, as a kid.
This one is different, in that the air doesn't directly contact the ice, so no humidity changes take place, and the ice can stay insulated when the unit is not in operation.
ZAP Chairman Starr cited a study that showed more than a third of new car buyers in California would buy an electric vehicle if that vehicle were priced close to a gasoline vehicle and offered similar functionality. XEBRAs are priced at under $10,000. The 2000 Green Car Institute study titled "The Current and Future Market for Electric Vehicles" used the same research methodologies employed by the auto industry to identify markets for gas vehicles.
Good objective information. I enjoy reading your posts.
Have you seen the article on www.evworld.com regarding AC Propulsion's eBox? At a conversion cost of $55k it probably won't have a lot of appeal. What I found amazing is that it has a 39 kWh Li-ion battery pack that weighs 580 lbs and can be fully recharged in 2 hours. No mention of what it cost and I am sure that it is a lot. But consider how this compares with the battery pack in a Toyota RAV4 EV that weighed 1100 lbs, held 27 kWh of energy and required over 6 hours to re-charge. This represents a tremendous advancement in less than 5 years.
For those that state Americans won't make any sacrifices to drive an EV I'm not sure if that is a negative commentary on EVs or Americans. Regardless, I personally don't view driving an EV as making sacrifices. I'd prefer to see the differences as trade-offs. There are at least as many pluses as minuses. Pretty soon it might be seen as a sacrifice to drive an ICE.
Plug and play Longmont woman gets charge out of three-wheeled electric car
By Felicia Russell The Daily Times-Call
LONGMONT — Some laugh. Many point. And others ask for rides.
Kay Evatz has been getting a lot of attention since a hot-pink, three-wheeled electric car was delivered to her north Longmont home Aug. 14. The ride in the 41/2-foot-wide Zap Xebra gets a bit bumpy on rough roads, and it’s somewhat slow on hills. But Evatz said she loves her new town car.
“I’m getting to know the best streets in Longmont for the least bumpy ride,” she said.
There are some disadvantages to her new ride — it can’t carry more than 500 pounds — but for Evatz, the Xebra is the best alternative to pollution and high gas prices.
I've got some mixed feelings about cars like the Zap Xebra. While its perfect as a city car I think that it could potentially serve to reinforce the misconceptions of those that think this is all EVs are capable of. If the Xebra gets a lot of press some may say, "that's great but it won't satisfy my needs". I understand that. There needs to be just as much PR that lets people know the Xebra does not represent the limit of EV capability. With that said I think the Xebra is excellent at what it was designed to do and I applaud those willing to adopt this type of alternative technology.
That is always the problem with any newer technology, unfortunately.....
The answer is to better educate the reporters, and to make sure they are emailed or telephoned when the make mistakes, or fail to mention other, more general-purpose technologies and capabilities.
Does anyone remember this car? How quickly do you think we could drop oil use for commuting and ,instead, produce enough electricity for everyone to drive on? Were we not ready for this a few years ago? Has anyone seen the movie?
Here's the Netflix description and then tbe link to the trailer:
Amid ever-increasing gas prices, this documentary delves into the short life of the GM EV1 electric car -- once all the rage in the mid-1990s and now fallen by the roadside. How could such an efficient, green-friendly vehicle fail to transform our garages and skies? Through interviews with government officials, former GM employees and concerned celebs (such as EV1 driver Mel Gibson), Chris Paine (former EV1 owner) seeks to answer the question. Starring: Martin Sheen, Peter Horton ... Director: Not Available Genre: Documentary Rated PGFor brief, mild language This movie has not been released on DVD. Future availability is not guaranteed.
1. Generation and distribution of Electric is not necessarily less poluting. Actual operation in a vehicle is less poluting
2. Battery technology will evolve very, very slowly. And the costs will not come down much and newer more dense technology will cost more. Contrary to what Toyota and the other hybrid auto makers would have you believe, batteries do fail and always significantly diminish is capacity. 3. "should help drive down the price" maybe but dont necessarily count on it. The tail wagging the dog. 4. A given that gas prices will increase as will every thing else. The question is when adjusted to other prices increases what is the relative increase.
Ever wonder why EV-1 failed? The infrastructure, incentives, and government support are still not here for eletric vehicles. How much of the electric research do you think the current petroleum, chemical and energy companies will fund? Answer; not very much.
"EV becomes practical when the power distribution infrastucture is in place, I.e. "electric recharge stations", akin to current ICE gas stations. "
I beg to differ.
Many (most) households have 2-3 cars. At least one of these cars is used primarily as a commuter vehicle, seeing much less than 100 miles of use per day.
Would an EV become practical FOR EVERYBODY. Heck no. But I think what the EV proponents are saying is that EV commuter vehicles, recharging at home overnight, WOULD be practical for millions of Americans.
Speaking personally, an EV vehicle WOULD be practical for our family as a commuter to be used by either me or my wife (although it would require just a bit more planning).
Would we be taking it on family vacations, long trips, etc.? Heck no. Would I advocate an EV for someone as an 'only' car? No way. But I can see where they would be useful.
I agree with you, most cars are not driven far on a daily basis and most families have at least two cars. Right now it is practical for most families to have one EV for commuting and short trips and a ICE car for long trips (as well as for commuting for the other spouse).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It would work fine for me and probably millions of Americans. The average commute in CA is 32.5 miles. The average commuter could use an EV with no problem. Plenty of power is generated at night. I think the only holdup is decent battery technology.
how about we simply say that 1/3 of our trade deficit comes from oil imports. This weakens our economic position. Is that good enough to introduce reducing imports into the equation?
Nice thinking, but I think the investment in infrastructure would be too great...not to mention numerous bugs that would have to be worked out and an additional complications in the cars and highways.
Comments
Driving an EV will definitely involve trade-offs, at least at first. I personally find that paying $50 to fill up my car with gas every 10 days is a nuisance.
Well, according to the Insurance companies, that would be millions, tens of millions of Americans, monthly. :P
Just where do you live? Manhattan? :surprise:
Two of those are vacations to my home state of Texas, where I go for a family reunion every summer and another visit at Christmas time.
My commute is 14 miles round trip daily.
A less-than-$10,000 EV would be perfect for me for my daily work. I'm on the list to test drive a Xebra when they get one available.
Being that it has no A/C, I would only be able to use it for about 5 months out of the year, but that's five months I would be polluting virtually ZERO with my vehicle.
Well with a population of around 300 million even a few tens of millions of Americans would be around 10% of the population. So the claim that a EV with a 200 mile range would be doable for 90% of the population holds true.
lets face it the average car is driven less than 50 miles on any given day.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The exception is heat and air conditioning. A small heater (a few hundred watts) can run off the accessory battery, but larger heaters / AC can sometimes run off the main battery pack. Often, an AC compressor runs off the drive shaft, just as it would in a standard car.
Now, stop and realize, you can go down to the appliance store and buy a 1000 watt air conditioner which can cool your whole bedroom. So even a few hundred watts goes a long way in a car interior.
Therefore, running heat/AC can have an effect on range (just like AC affects your mileage), but it is not all that significant. Consider a 50KWH battery or supercapacitor pack, off of which we run 1000 watts (1KW) of accessories. All by themselves, they would drain the pack in 50 hours. But, that 50KWH pack, running a car for 200 miles, will be dead in 4 hours (at 50mph, 200 divided by 50 equals 4.) In four hours, the accessories only have time to use 4KWH of power (8%.) Therefore my range will be reduced by 16 miles, from 200 miles to 184 miles.
Yeah but my bedroom isn't encircled by glass and left on its own won't hit 125+ degrees in a matter of minutes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well, I was just illustrating why a 1000 watt AC/Heater unit works fine in a car.
I heat my EV with 500 watts, and I'm happy with that. The EV1, I believe, had a three position heater switch for 500, 1000, and 1500 watts. Typically, I assume, you wouldn't need to leave it on 1500 more than a few minutes. But even left running continuously at that setting, it doesn't change the end result in my illustration very much.
In other words a car will need to use a lot more energy per cubic foot to keep cool than a room in a house would. I can turn the A/C off in my house and my bedroom will stay cool for some time afterwards. I can turn the A/C off in my car and it will heat up instantly.
How many watts do you use to cool your car?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I figured the 500/1000/1500 watt heat pump in the EV1 was probably a good guide. It could operate as a heater or a cooler.
But since this issue came up, I checked Wikipedia. The page said automotive AC takes about 5 hp, which translates roughly to about 3700 watts. I also found a Chinese webpage advertising automotive AC systems rated at 3500 watts.
This suggests that the EV1 system was either a bit underpowered, or more efficient than typical AC.
Anyway, this means I have to update my example. In the worst case scenario, with 3500w AC running full blast for 4 hours while the driver exhausts his driving range, the AC could take 25% of the range away, dropping from 200 miles to 150.
I think the whole idea of electric vehicles is great, but i drive 97 miles per day round trip for work and i dont think my employer wants to install electrical outlets in the parking lot for its employees to "re-fuel" their vehicles. Hilly terrain and the stop and go traffic of 2 towns between would definately hurt my potential range.
There is still alot of people that need to buy in to the idea before it would really be worth investing in (purchasing vehicle) personally.
They could sell a thousand cars tomorrow, but how many places other than your house could you re-charge?
Run on electricity
could charge while they drive on the freeway
Have small battery for say 20 miles independent driving.
Charge at work, store, home, and solar panels.
One hops in the car, drives to the freeway, plugs in the slot, reads a book, 30miles later gets out of the slot, drives 5 miles to work on local roads.
A computer on the car could calculate electricity usage and you could pull into a station once a month to pay your bill.
what do you think?
Just try and understand one of the most popular options on autos today are dual-zone AC. People, more than the few hundred here, just won't buy any car that won't enable them to blast the air, go 70, and less than 200 miles per charge.....If they would, we would have those models on sale now.
As for the AC issue, well, what's needed is a little perspective. If you would rather be able to blast max A/C in your face for four hours than save $200/month in fuel costs, that's your choice. It just doesn't seem like enough of a reason to nix the whole EV idea to me.
Compressor-based A/C is a less-than-optimum idea in EVs. Some of the gas conversion EVs I've seen have this, but the problem is that, unlike a gas car, the motor doesn't run all the time. If you turn on your AC in the parking lot, you'll get nothing until you get the car on the road. An efficient heat pump design, like the EV1 had, probably makes more sense.
Next, EVs do not have to be an all-or-nothing idea. Nobody is advocating replacing everybody's cars next week. Imagine we were talking about the viability of motorcycles. On the one side people would talk about the great fuel mileage, ease of parking, low cost, etc. On the other side, there would be complaints about cargo room, safety issues, winter driving, etc.
With the proper perspective, of course, all these people would realize that motorcycles are great, but not for everybody.
The marketplace has allowed the motorcycle niche to exist. Why should there not be an EV niche?
I do think there is a very strong market for a good commuter EV.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Fully 30% of the country doesn't need a huge AC unit blasting away in the summer, for the kind of use they are putting their ICE's to, IMO. The trouble is, many are always "thinking" of how they might possibly use a car, once in a blue moon, rather than the reality of how they do....
And if not because of the heat, I would still tint the windows for looks, 5% uv light emitting on the rear, 35% uv light emitting on drivers and passengers, i would go 20% but the law dont permit that dark on drivers and passengers windows in NE.(yep ive been pulled over ticketed and had to remove it before i left)
Any one who is really truly buying an ev to save money is likely to opt out of power accessories and even a/c if its not standard and diminishes efficiency.
Just think, if ev's were affordable for all (15k - 30k), charging stations plentiful and fast, enough people may invest to really put a substantial dent in the oil industry to where prices would have to drop to get customers, and I could afford to drive my 6mpg. 74 chevelle on cruise nights :P
In fact, we really should have skipped directly ahead to serial hybrids. A serial hybrid is an EV, with a small ICE to charge the batteries. This gives drivers the best of both worlds. You may have a rechargable battery pack good for 50, 100, or 200 miles, which you charge from your garage. The electric drive motor is full-sized, and powerful. For most trips, you just use electricity. For long trips, the small gas/diesel motor runs to extend your range out to several hundred miles. The ICE could even be enclosed in a removable module, to increase storage space when you don't need it.
In this type of hybrid, the gas or diesel engine simply charges the batteries - it does not turn the wheels. Therefore it can be very small, and it runs at a constant speed, right in the most efficient part of its powerband - giving it an extrememly high equivalent mileage.
The hybrids that some of us drive right now are parallel hybrids. Both electric and gas motors connect to the wheels. Since it is expected that the gas engine does most of the work, it is full sized, and the electric drive system is underpowered and designed only for limited driving.
If fuel saving and emissions reduction is the goal, the parallel hybrid doesn't even make much sense, compared to the serial version. It's also simpler from an engineering standpoint (because you don't need two transmission systems.) I'll leave it to the readers to figure out why we have been given parallel hybrids.
Thanks for your point regarding serial hybrids. Although I realize that there are some aftermarket companies that are building plug-in add-ons to increase the battery power available to the existing parallel hybrids, I had actually thought that the whole idea behind a plug-in hybrid was to switch to using electric as the primary motivation with a smaller engine that is used only to recharge the batteries when on extended trips. I was certainly hoping that this was the way the new Toyota Prius was to be configured, but perhaps we'll have to wait a little longer.
Since most of us probably can't afford a 2nd vehicle, which is used only as a commuter (EV only) or don't want to deal with the hassle of renting a vehicle for trips (I don't think I've ever gotten a vehicle that I acually liked when renting one), I think that the serial hybrid will be the way to go for the near term, at least until such time as EV only vehicles can have a range of ~ 200 miles to a charge (including the use of those pesky options), and there is an infrastructure in place to allow for quick recharging.
Wouldn't it also be great if the small recharging engine could be easily removed so that the weight would not be a constant drag when the vehicle is only being used in commuting mode?
How many households out there have two cars? Every couple I know have two cars, one for him, one for her (or one for him and one for him or one for her and one for her just to be inclusive
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
From what I am reading here, it gives those of us supporting alternative energy a bad name, they go on and on about hating AC or even MP3 Players and decent sound systems as if they were my Great-Grandfather, LOL!
Some of us are not misers, don't want to coast to ever intersection, enjoy creature comforts, and don't think they are "bad"....
You know, all it takes is a little out-of-the-box engineering to fix these little details. The EV1, for instance, was on the right track using an efficient heat pump (1500 watts) instead of a 3500-watt compressor based AC system. In average use, this much power shouldn't knock more than a few percent off your driving range.
I've since talked with EV owners who have experimented with other ideas. For instance, putting a refrigeration unit in the car that freezes ice while the car is charging. The ice, if well insulated, can last the whole day.
Sound systems, windshield wipers, headlights, etc. are not an issue at all. My EV, like most, has a separate accessory battery for these things. They have no impact on the range of the vehicle whatsoever.
The problem with "enthuasists" is that they are really excited and true believers. That isn't bad. It leads to inovation and new ideas. However MOST buyers don't want to make any concesions in how they drive, or won't for more than a few months. They are not willing to "coast" or drive 55 or under. We cannot change in a few years, the habits of the past 50.
While promoting alternative fuels and systems, we need to keep in mind what in the "real" world will sell, and keep bringing people back for repeat business, just as Toyota and all makers must do. No one will make a profit just selling to the "true believers".
Nobody's advocating electric RVs just yet...
Laptops and faxes are negligible loads. 600 watt sound systems don't draw 600 watts continuously (you'd be deaf if they did.)
Anything which can run off an a typical car battery can run off an accessory battery in an EV just fine. Why wouldn't it? As you point out, if you put a ridiculous load on your accessory battery, it will go dead. This will happen regardless of the car you drive.
...The problem with "enthuasists" is that they are really excited and true believers. However MOST buyers don't want to make any concesions in how they drive
Gosh, 'zealots' and now 'enthusiasts' and 'true believers'. Enough with the labels. If the implication is that my judgement is clouded by my beliefs, then my facts should be easy to disprove. We're talking technology, not religion. So let's focus on the facts, OK?
I don't want to make concessions in the way I drive either. I accept one concession, and that's limited range. I take this as a trade-off for the benefits of EV driving (reduced fuel cost, mainly.) What is this focus on accessories? I think I have shown that this is a non-issue. A/C or heat can have an effect on range, usually just a few percent. Nothing else is going to have any effect.
...They are not willing to "coast" or drive 55 or under.
Modern freeway-capable EVs usually do 75-80 or better. This is not an intrinsic limitation - top speeds are often limited in EVs because of single-gear transmissions. This can easily be a consumer option - the Tesla has two gears to get to 130mph, for example. In most non-mainstream and NEV cars, manufacturers simply save the cost of making a multi-gear transmission. I am not advocating this sort of car for mainstream vehicles, unless buyers can opt for a better transmission.
...No one will make a profit just selling to the "true believers".
I agree. That's why EVs need to get out of this silly little hobbyist niche. Personally, I'm excited about the imported Miles XS200 car:
http://www.milesautomotive.com/products_xs200.html
Because, for the first time, we have a car with a decent range for an affordable price. I hope it lives up to its description. If we can just get a couple of cars like this out there, I think interest in EVs could increase.
My main point wasn't with you, just because i click reply to your post to stay in topic. I have previously posted half of all users could do just fine, and give up nearly nothing with a newer design EV.
Understand that the public coming to these forums really are put-off by enthuasists/zealots/true believers talk of coasting, doing without, complicated "improvements" home maintenance etc.
If we believe in the technology, people need to keep in mind the average automobile user will want the EV's because they just make sense, and are no sacrafice, not think of them as something only for purists and granola crunchers.
In other words, while I would love to try this out in my EV:
http://www.swampy.net/ac12.html
A more marketable solution is something ike this:
http://www.pnl.gov/microcats/fullmenu/compheatpump.html
"That swamp thing has been around nearly as long as I have! The one we had, back in the 1940's mounted on the side window, air blew in, and passed over water/ice. It also blew lots of water onto your neck and face!" :P
Everything old is new again, it seems......
Yep, I remember traveling in the car with one of those, as a kid.
This one is different, in that the air doesn't directly contact the ice, so no humidity changes take place, and the ice can stay insulated when the unit is not in operation.
That would be an amazing thing, them adapting to new technology, lol.
http://www.zapworld.com/about/news/news_xebraPK.asp
Have you seen the article on www.evworld.com regarding AC Propulsion's eBox? At a conversion cost of $55k it probably won't have a lot of appeal. What I found amazing is that it has a 39 kWh Li-ion battery pack that weighs 580 lbs and can be fully recharged in 2 hours. No mention of what it cost and I am sure that it is a lot. But consider how this compares with the battery pack in a Toyota RAV4 EV that weighed 1100 lbs, held 27 kWh of energy and required over 6 hours to re-charge. This represents a tremendous advancement in less than 5 years.
For those that state Americans won't make any sacrifices to drive an EV I'm not sure if that is a negative commentary on EVs or Americans. Regardless, I personally don't view driving an EV as making sacrifices. I'd prefer to see the differences as trade-offs. There are at least as many pluses as minuses. Pretty soon it might be seen as a sacrifice to drive an ICE.
Plug and play
Longmont woman gets charge out of three-wheeled electric car
By Felicia Russell
The Daily Times-Call
LONGMONT — Some laugh. Many point. And others ask for rides.
Kay Evatz has been getting a lot of attention since a hot-pink, three-wheeled electric car was delivered to her north Longmont home Aug. 14. The ride in the 41/2-foot-wide Zap Xebra gets a bit bumpy on rough roads, and it’s somewhat slow on hills. But Evatz said she loves her new town car.
“I’m getting to know the best streets in Longmont for the least bumpy ride,” she said.
There are some disadvantages to her new ride — it can’t carry more than 500 pounds — but for Evatz, the Xebra is the best alternative to pollution and high gas prices.
The answer is to better educate the reporters, and to make sure they are emailed or telephoned when the make mistakes, or fail to mention other, more general-purpose technologies and capabilities.
Here's the Netflix description and then tbe link to the trailer:
Amid ever-increasing gas prices, this documentary delves into the short life of the GM EV1 electric car -- once all the rage in the mid-1990s and now fallen by the roadside. How could such an efficient, green-friendly vehicle fail to transform our garages and skies? Through interviews with government officials, former GM employees and concerned celebs (such as EV1 driver Mel Gibson), Chris Paine (former EV1 owner) seeks to answer the question.
Starring: Martin Sheen, Peter Horton ...
Director: Not Available
Genre: Documentary
Rated PGFor brief, mild language
This movie has not been released on DVD. Future availability is not guaranteed.
Oh, the irony......
2. Battery technology will evolve very, very slowly. And the costs will not come down much and newer more dense technology will cost more. Contrary to what Toyota and the other hybrid auto makers would have you believe, batteries do fail and always significantly diminish is capacity.
3. "should help drive down the price" maybe but dont necessarily count on it. The tail wagging the dog.
4. A given that gas prices will increase as will every thing else. The question is when adjusted to other prices increases what is the relative increase.
Ever wonder why EV-1 failed? The infrastructure, incentives, and government support are still not here for eletric vehicles. How much of the electric research do you think the current petroleum, chemical and energy companies will fund? Answer; not very much.
Cheers,
MidCow EE,MBA
The ICE will not go away for a long,long time. Not until we have Oil agian from the next Jurassic Milleneum!
LOL,
MidCow
And the recharge stations have to be fast probably less than 30 minutes, closer to 15 minutes. Overnight recharge will not be acceptable.
The are a lot of obsticles and stiumbling blocks to overcome. What if the electric tow truck runs out of charge towing the discharge EV ?
MidCow
I beg to differ.
Many (most) households have 2-3 cars. At least one of these cars is used primarily as a commuter vehicle, seeing much less than 100 miles of use per day.
Would an EV become practical FOR EVERYBODY. Heck no. But I think what the EV proponents are saying is that EV commuter vehicles, recharging at home overnight, WOULD be practical for millions of Americans.
Speaking personally, an EV vehicle WOULD be practical for our family as a commuter to be used by either me or my wife (although it would require just a bit more planning).
Would we be taking it on family vacations, long trips, etc.? Heck no. Would I advocate an EV for someone as an 'only' car? No way. But I can see where they would be useful.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It would work fine for me and probably millions of Americans. The average commute in CA is 32.5 miles. The average commuter could use an EV with no problem. Plenty of power is generated at night. I think the only holdup is decent battery technology.