V8 diesels in Dakota or other pickup trucks

thedane1

I´ve read many of the topics about diesels in the
states, and earlier I created one about
possibilities for v8 diesels in light trucks. It
seems that you americans arent as impressed aboout
he diesels as we are. Since gasoline is about a
dollar and a half per liter in denmark, it almost
has to be diesel engines if you want a big engine.
(diesel i only about 75 cents per liter)For that
reason there seems to be a lot more development
going on in Europe. We recently got a BMW 740 d.
3,9 l v8, 239 hp (on the wheels) and 560 nm at 1800
rpm. Brings the BMW 0 to 60 miles in 6,5 sek, and
the car still runs abot 7 - 8 miles per liter
diesel. Mercedes is bringing out the same engine
later, and already there is the 320 cdi, (only 6
cyl) Audi a8 has a 3,3 v8 diesel etc. How ever, we
still haven´t got any trucks with good diesel
engines. I´m hoping that the Dakota will get the v8
diesel, now that Chrysler and mercedes has
emerged. has anyone read just the slightest about
this, or know how to influence the car companies
with ideas. I´ve seen that the chrysler voyager has
already gotten a mercedes diesel engine, so I´m
hoping this will continue in other vehicles....
the dane

jasonpeterclar

I think there are a number of reasons we don't have any diesels in small trucks and SUV's here. Low gas prices are one. Even at $2.00/gal, you have a hard time justifying an expensive diesel engine over the life of a car. Plus Americans have seen some real bad diesels that were developed domestically and abroad (think GM 5.7, early VW's, Toyota's 4 cyl truck diesel).
Also, there is a limited infrastructure for fueling and servicing diesels. Not all service stations carry diesel and most mechanics would be lost without a distributer (how would they charge for "tune up's" with no plugs to change, haha).
Sadly, diesels will be slow to catch on here, even if we had the best in the world, like the BMW's and Audi in Europe.
The third reason is that those high-zoot Euro-diesels wouldn't meet US emissions/particulate regulations. Look at the VW 1.9 TDI for example, it's derated 20hp from Europe to US spec for emissions reasons.

But there is hope. GM's relationship with Isuzu could breed some nice small powerplants, Detroit Diesel has been courting the automakers for a few years with a sweet V6 diesel it developed. And Ford and Chrysler (still can't say DC) have ties to Europe and Japan that could bring diesel front line technology here.

I guess its just a issue of making customers want diesels. (Other than us real smart guys)

themacguy

I've owned a couple and you're both right. Also, the Dakota HAS a diesel option in Mexico - where four door small trucks have been selling well for decades. The new direct injection diesels are probably going to be in great demand in the near future in the US - as are (hopefully) compressed natural gas (CNG) options for current engines. I'm in the oil business, and I personally have ALWAYS thought that CNG and diesels were THE answer for most of our energy problems worldwide. In fact, I've just located a company that is trying to find a CNG adapter plate 'kit' for my 2000 Dakota Quad 4.7 liter gas engine. CNG provides about 80% efficiency (compared to gas), less maintenance over the life of the engine, is less volatile in an accident and more cost effective if you have it available to you. It's also about as clean a fuel as can be run in a reciprocating engine. When it's a done deal, it'll be made available to anyone who wants it at whatever the normal cost is - usually about $1,500. Better than the 5-6k at Ford or GM, but our government still needs to help lower the cost with tax incentives. Gee, you think that'll ever happen? Until then, maybe the (Dakota) diesels will move north of the Rio Grande like the cattle of the 1800's. One can only hope... and post.

cdean

I think jasonpeterclar hit it on the head. America still has a bad taste in its mouth when it comes to car diesels. especially since the gas burners had better get up and go, no one has really looked at diesels in these smaller applications, and the infrastructure proves it.

rrichf

I have to take exception to the lack of diesel fuel infrastructure. I live in the LA metro area, north Orange County. There are 7 stations that sell diesel within a one mile radius of my home.

On a recent trip from LA to Daytona Beach I had all except one of my fuel stops identified BEFORE I left home. They were 4-5 hours apart. The only fuel stop that wasn't pre-planned was between Houston and El Paso. There I just purchased fuel where it was convenient. Not a big deal at all.

Rich

cdean

I think the point is that diesel is not the basis of our fuel infrastructure...gas is. You can find gas at any gas station...Thats why they call them gas stations, not diesel stations. Can't say i've traveled enought to know of availability. In Texas, yes, so many diesels around, its pretty easy to find...but going out of state, I wouldn't be so sure.

Unless someone can enlighten me otherwise......

bookitty

Cdean, I have had several diesel powered automobiles, and even more diesel fueled trucks with cranes and aerial platforms mounted on them. I live in the Northeast, and drove constantly from VA to ME, stopping at my dealers' places of business and demonstrating these rigs. I never had
a problem accessing diesel fuel. There is a plethora of stations out there dispensing diesel. When you are not actively looking for fuel, it would be easy not to notice the availability.

Bookitty

cdean

very true

bpeebles

Why would Dodge offer a V8 diesel in the Dakota when the Cummins turbodiesel (As offered in the RAM) is so far superior to the V8 diesels offered by Ford and GM?

The Cummins is an inline 6 which produces a better torque delivery than a similar-Sized V8. Additionally the I6 has far fewer moving parts and is much quieter. (Just TRY to have a conversation near an idling V8 FORD diesel)

BTW, there is already a diesel available in the Dakota. See this URL;
http://www.autointell.com/chrysler7.htm

cdean

peebles,
I would argue just the opposite. The new Powerstrokes are very quite, but even the old powerstrokes didn't clatter like the Cummins always has.

bpeebles

I am not going to "argue" with you I only know what the truckers tell me. (Those that haul for a living with a FLEET of Rams fitted with Cummins) After a couple hundred thousand miles they start to 'loosen up' and quiet down. (Apparently the Fords just break down at that point;-)

I will ask this. Have you any experince with GMs brand new diesel? I hear it will be a VERY tough competetor for BOTH the Cummins and the 'PowerStroke'

Since it it desighed/built by a company that has made diesels for many years (Mitchabushi??), these claims are not just a 'sales pitch'. GM has finally stepped into the ring with the big boys with a contender on their side!

cdean

bpeebles
I have never worked with one of the new GM diesels. They are made in a joint venture by Isuzu and GM. Isuzu has been making big industrial diesels for many years. They power many of the super huge offshore tankers, construction equipment, and their medium duty engines power many GM and Isuzu delivery trucks.

this engine is totally new, but I've heard nothing but good things about Isuzu's diesel track record. the engine this year, in terms of power, should blow the doors off the competition until they get a chance to redesign and catch up.

ryanbab

Quiet??? I was at a stop light next to a dodge 2500 diesel and i could barely hear my radio it was so noisy. Im not complaining about the noise i am just wondering how you think they arwe quiet?? All diesels are loud.

Ryan

cdean

except for the new Isuzu. supposed to be so quiet and smooth at idle, that several testers accidentally hit the starter while it was running.

they said it does clatter pretty good when under load and a heavy foot.

myself, i've seen/heard haul trucks from hot-shotters that still have some early '90s models Cummins--loudest vehicle on the road, to me.

thedane1

the reason to put the mercedes engine (3,9 liter v8 diesel producing 240 hp, 560 nm at 1800 rpm) in the dodge dakota, is that the RAM is simply too big for normal use in Denmark. Gas is very expensive (a dollar per liter), whereas diesel is only about 50 cents + better fuel efficiency. Last but not least, I would prefere the mercedes or BMW diesel v8 in any dakota sized pickup, instead of the noisy ones you have. RAM and Ford diesel is ancient and noisy, especially compared to the euoropean diesels

bpeebles

I cannot 'argue' with that;->

You make a strong point about using a refined diesel in the dakota. This goes along with my very first impression driving the 2000 Dakota was to notice how QUIET it was at highway speed. It would be a shame to use a noisy truck engine in the Dakota.

Unfortunatly, I expect Dodge to try to keep the TRUCK image and not go the distance with a Mercedes engine. It is usually the marketing people that dictate what is available 8-(

sovercash1

Thanks for sharing info about your Diesels, Great info!!

I just wanted to chime in on the Duramax just a little.. It is VERY quite.. I think TheDane1 would be impressed...

The 2.5liter that is in the Dakota in other countries is a Detroit Diesel.. http://www.detroitdiesel.com/markets/mktauto.htm

DDC owns a company in Cento Italy that builds the engine.. It's really called a VM Motori.. It too is quiet and responsive to throttle as TheDane1 likes in a diesel... It is also has a High Pressure Common Rail Fuel system like the Duramax 6600...
It's not really a "Powerhouse" as we Americans seem to want, but it's a very nice engine..

DDC also has an inhouse V6 Diesel (Designed in the US and developed in the US) called DELTA http://www.detroitdiesel.com/markets/automotive/adelta1.htm
it looked kinda bleak over the last few months for the engine.. DDC has been trying to sell it to Dodge for the Durango without success, but with Daimler/Chrysler and DDC coming together the future looks better for the engine... I hope it works out, those guys have worked very hard on the project...

Steve O

sovercash1

TheDane1 I very rarely hear from guy that are interested in diesels outside of the US... We Americans haven't seen the amount of Diesel powered vehicles as you have, but I think in the coming years the US will begin to use them even more..

I would like to hear from you..
My e-mail is sovercash1@aol.com if you get time drop me a note..

Steve Overcah..

themacguy

You are well informed. Maybe you can 'pop by' the owner's group area once in a while and keep us updated on the diesel front. My group (natural gas industry) is going to try to help boost the cng (compressed natural gas) and gas electric hybrid awareness in the (probable) 'new' administration next year. One can only hope we can bring some domestic-based industries to bear on our rapidly depleting (except nat. gas) hydrocarbon reserve problem before we become total OPEC slaves. The new synthetic diesel fuels are another area worthy of consideration. I can see several new industries developing in the next 20-25 years in relation to U.S. consumers' fuel needs. Some look promising.

bpeebles

(themacguy) OK OK I have had enough....

PLEASE explain to me how to find this "Owners Group" I have read a lot about it as you "engineered" it and looked forward to seeing it.

I have "poked around" on the EDMUND site but have found nothing. Is there some kind of signup to be a member? Perhaps I do not know the secret handshake to get inside ;->

Am I the only one that is lost?

If you provide a clickable link I would be grateful.

bookitty

Look at the left hand margin on the topics listing on any page within the pick up truck range of topics. You will see a window labeled "Conferences". Click on the scroll triangle, and "Owners Clubs" can be seen. Highlight "Owners Clubs" and scroll down to Dakota topics. You are now there. Your clear and intelligent posting regarding technical information have always been of great value. We look forward to you valued input on the Owners Club topics. Welcome!

Bookitty

bpeebles

Boy it IS hard to find... It is 'hidden' in a drop-down scroll box labelled confrences under Owners Clubs.

It is NOT easilly found in the main topic listing at the Edmunds home page. One has to know what they are looking for. (I have designed web sites. This breaks all of the rules for user-ergonomics....or whatever you wish to call it.)

BTW, the URL is:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/engaged/edmund.cgi?c=Clubs&x=L

bpeebles

Detroit Diesel in Durango / Dakota!!

http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b080200.htm

cdean

Strange that Mercedes doesn't have 3-5 liter diesel in their lineup somewhere in Europe that they could fit into the truck.

Outsourcing to Detroit D for the small trucks is something I find unlikely given the plans to put the Mercedes in the Ram.

And I can't imagine how expensive a Variable Geometry Turbo must be!!! I'd like to see how they do that.

steve234

The only diesel engines that mercedes makes that would be powerful enough for a pickup are too large to fit the Dakota and Ram. Since DC owns Detroit, it is more practical to use the new engine for the Dodges. The problem is the kraut mentality. They do not understand the American thought process and that has a lot of experts worried about the short term effects on the viability of DC.

bpeebles

"Since DC owns Detroit" (Deisel)

Lest not forget that this purchase was several years ago and I understand that the "contract" with Cummins is still in effect for awhile longer.

Once the Cummins deal is 'expired', the handwriting on the wall is that DD engines will proliferate the DC lines.

No guessing here... it is just good buisness to use your OWN engines!! (OK, OK.. one could argue that Mercedes is their OWN engines too...but certainly NOT Cummins in ANY case.)

sovercash1

CDean,

The 50 Series Detroit Diesel that just was just released has a VGT.. It's pretty cool the blades on the Compressor side are like mini blinds in your house they move in and out..


Steve O

meredith

After 30 or more days of inactivity....

this topic is being "frozen." It will be archived or deleted in the next 10 days or so.

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