2008 Pontiac G8

circlew

I meant you favor the offense when calling strikes at the plate!

Regards,
OW

mr215

That is the first info I have seen on the mileage of the G8. The V8 mileage isnt all that bad considering the power of the car. I see it beats the 550 and charger in mileage in spite of being more powerful.

For those who think that people who drive Infinitis and Acuras wont look at this car I think you have to look at cars like the CTS, Enclave and 300C for reference. when a well designed American car comes out it usually gets some attention from import owners. When the 300C was new there were stories about people trading in German and Japanese cars for it because it offered so much space, power and style for the money.

rayainsw

The “official” EPA numbers have been on fueleconomy.gov since ( at least ) Dec 14th – when I posted them here.

As another point of comparison:
I test drove 3 different M45s – each the Sport model – before settling on my Corvette last Fall.
I decided to spend a little time looking at how the G8 would seem ( based on preliminary information ) to stack up on specifications, since I was quite impressed with many dynamic aspects of the M.

I hereby acknowledge that the M45, at just over $50K for the Sport model, is not a direct competitor to the G8 GT \ V8. So, there. But anyway:

Weight appears similar – The M45 is just over 4,000.
And it did handle reasonably well, as far as I could tell in my test drives.
( I never really push for anything like maximum cornering speeds on a test drive. )
The M45 Sport rides on 245/40x19s – where the G8 looks like it will have exactly the same sized rubber.
And the G8’s near equal F\R weight distribution is clearly a positive.
And specifying an LSD is a “good thing”.

The 5 speed manumatic trans. in the M45 is one reason that I decided against the M. The trans. behavior was actually OK. But. I happen to have a ( not very rational, but very strong ) preference for low RPM at cruising speeds. My Corvette shows just over 1,500 RPM at 70. The M is geared for 2,300 RPM at 60 ( and close to 2,700 at 70 ) and I simply find that engine speed “too high” – for me. Not that the motor will not happily turn those RPM – and Infiniti seems confident that the motor will last. At least for the duration of their warrantee period: 6 years \ 70,000 miles, as I recall.

GM, obviously, will be warranting their drivetrain for 5 \ 100,000.

Partly due to this gearing, the M45’s EPA highway MPG rating ( 23, under the “old scheme”, for 2007 & 21 for 2008 ) is not particularly impressive. The G8 posts 23, under the new 2008 testing procedures. Two more MPG = almost 10% better fuel mileage.

One big contributing factor to the M45’s acceleration ( satisfying, for a fairly large 4-door sedan, typically posting high – or even mid-13s at something over 100 in the quarter mile ) is the relatively aggressive gearing. And gearing that requires no 2-3 shift before completing the 0-60 run, and no 3-4 shift before the end of the quarter mile.

The HP \ TQ ratings for the M45’s V8 are: 335 \ 340. ( Premium )
The G8 is 361 \ 385. ( Regular )

With a bit less weight, but also with substantially less aggressive final drive gearing, I still wonder what the actual, independent test numbers for the US G8 GT will finally be. The 6L80 does provide a reasonable overall first gear ratio ( 2.92 final times 4.03 first gear = 11.76 to 1 ) but the M45 overall is 12.87 to 1. Hmm. And second for the M is 2.37 and 7.96 overall – vs the G8’s second gear of 2.36, but 6.89.

My ** GUESS **, based on all this ( certainly does not qualify as real ‘analysis’ ) is that the G8 GT \ V8 with automatic will end up posting very similar numbers to the M45 for 0-60 & the quarter mile.

- Ray
Still interested . . .

= = =

Gearing.
M45:
Final drive: 3.36:1
Top gear ( fifth ): 0.83
G8:
Final drive ( A6 ): 2.92
Top gear ( sixth ): 0.67
[ fifth = 0.85 ]

Length.
M45: 192.6
G8: 196.1

Wheelbase.
M45: 114.2
G8: 114.8

Width.
M45: 70.8
G8: 74.8

mr215

I think the main factor for people considering the G8 will be do they want space and power or the latest in high tech or luxury features like HIDs, memory, nav and BT. If you can live without those things it would be hard to pass up on the G8, especially considering its generous backseat and trunk space and generous torque levels.

rayainsw

"generous torque levels"

That is my biggest weakness...
(( In the car realm. ))
- Ray
TQ addict - - - seeking 12 step program...

circlew

TQ addict - - - seeking 12 step program...

No known cure. Best you can do is diesel.

Regards,
OW

rayainsw

“BMW released the X5 xDrive35d and the 335d diesel models powered by a variable twin turbo 3.0 liter inline six-cylinder. The motor produces 265-hp and 425lb-ft of torque. The result is a zero to sixty time of 6.2 seconds while still netting 23/33 MPG for the 335d . . .”

Indeed.

circlew

I know...thinking about the 335d. Seriously thinking.

Regards,
OW

qbrozen

Hmmm... that's similar acceleration to the 328i, right? I'm guessing it would be quite a bit heavier and quite a bit more expensive. I'd have to see the rest of the numbers, but I don't know if 18% better mileage is enough to make sense.

mr215

Does anyone know when they can start reporting on this car? I guess it wont be until early February when the new magazine issues come out.

circlew

27 MPG combined, 328i performance. The G8 is just an ordinary Grand Prix with better performance at the end of the day. 335d will simply handle better, provide first class luxury and contribute to lower oil consumption. No real cost savings, however.

Over 30 MPG on the highway is real tempting at this class of car.

Regards,
OW

mr215

G8 and GP have nothiing in common. Different platform, different engines, different sizes, different trannies, etc. Totally different vehicles. I would bank on there being a huge handling difference between the 328 and G8.

white6

Have to agree; comparing G8 and GP is like comparing apples to oranges. Modern, rear-drive sedan compared to decades-old (chassis) front-drive sedan. G8 isn't even a Pontiac (really) but a re-badged Holden. And, FWIW, I would not expect the full-size, 4,000 lb G8 to handle anything like a sub-compact 3,400 lb 328i. I would also expect not having to wad myself up into a ball to get in the G8.

mr215

yeah I didnt even get into the weight and size issue. The G8 is closer in size to the 7 series than the 3 series. The 3 series might post slightly better handling stats but that is to be expected from a car with a 600lb weight advantage. The question is how does the G8 handle compared to similar cars. I'm willing to bet it will do well in that context. If someone is of the mindset of "it cant be geat its a Pontiac" than nothing will convince them to check the car out and give it a chance.

circlew

Lets compare the G8 to the GTO. One goes out and one comes in from Down Under. Similar performance different body type. Hopefully, the G8 gets more interest.

If Pontiac bets it's sales on the G8 replacing the GP or Bonneville do you think the sales numbers will match?

Regards,
OW

paisan

I think it will depend on what the dealers try to do with the G8.

If the dealers feel they are trying to compete with the "luxury" brands and thus keep the prices high, volume low, the car will flop like the GTO.

If they see it as a pedestrian car and try to get as many out on the street ala Charger, then we'll see them all over.

Only time will tell.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

white6

G8 will not be a rental-car queen like GP is. Take away zero-profit fleet sales of GP and it's suddenly not terribly impressive. Add to that the enormous incentives required for retail sales, and it shouldn't be too hard to match profitability of GP. GTO was never meant to be anything but an "image booster" limited to a maximum of 18,000/year for 3 years. Approximately 45,000 were shipped, so I would not necessarily call it a sales bust. The greedy dealers were probably the biggest impediment to sales. G8 will be available as a nicely-equipped 6-cylinder version for far below $30,000 to start. Personally, I think they will be hard-pressed to meet initial demand, and will easily sell every one they can ship over without incentives. Of course, I could be completely wrong and they will tank. If that happens, I will be glad cause then I can buy one even cheaper!

mr215

I dont the dealers determine who the car competes with. GM sets the pricing and designed the car and the customers will decide what cars get cross-shopped with the G8. When a car starts at $27k its not really competing with luxury brands. The GP will go away after 2008 so the G8 will be filling that role. Even though the GP is sold to fleets in large numbers (although those numbers have declined) 40k cars is not a whole lot at all. The GTO wasnt the huge flop that the media claims simply because they never planned to sell a lot in the first place. The GTO didnt flop because it was an Aussie import so saying the G8 may meet the same fate because its imported short-sighted since the G8 is a sedan, has two engines and has a lower starting price.

qbrozen

I think what Paisan means is if dealers mark up the MSRP and then go on and on to shoppers about how this is better than a 5-series, E-class, etc.

paisan

qbeozen is right. If the dealers try to upsell the car as a 5 series/E-Class/GS/M45 competitor and try to get MSRP on them, they'll sit on the dealer lots.

As for the GTO, there are still brand new GTOs sitting on lots here in NY/NJ. I almost picked one up for about $23k over the summer.

If the dealers sell em at a resonable price and go for volume the car will do well.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

mr215

demand will determine if cars sell at MSRP. The car is a competitor for RWD luxury cars in terms of power and performance, its not a matter of dealers "talking it up" to be such a competitor. A dealer would be wise to point out that the G8 offers a large RWD sports sedan package for many thousands less than any comparable European sedan. That doesnt mean its a luxury car on par with those competitors in features and panache, but if you are looking for the basics you will find them in this car. Again, 40k units is not a lot at all, I would think the car would have to have a nonexistent ad budget and terrible reviews for Pontiac not to be able to move 40k of these cars easily. The GTO was a totally different story. Lutz even said they concentrated cars in the wrong markets and they should have focused on warmer, import oriented markets where RWD isnt seen as a liability.

mr215

Just for reference, the Aura, which many people are calling a sales disappointment, sold almost 60k units in 2007. Saturn has far fewer dealers than Pontiac and people feel 60k Auras is a poor showing. Unless GM has been understating G8 shipments purposely, I would expect G8s to move off lots quickly.

paisan

demand will determine if cars sell at MSRP. The car is a competitor for RWD luxury cars in terms of power and performance, its not a matter of dealers "talking it up" to be such a competitor. A dealer would be wise to point out that the G8 offers a large RWD sports sedan package for many thousands less than any comparable European sedan.

Here is a problem I see happening...

A dealer knows he's gonna get 2 G8 GTs for the entire year. He says well let's make sure we make $ on them so we'll do MSRP+$5k "market adjustment". They then sit on the car until the one sucker comes along to pay for it. This would essentially make the car flop IMHO because people will look at it and say "I'm not paying $5k over msrp for a pontiac". Then GM turns around and says "oh no, look the G8 is failing, guess we'll stop selling em here since they aren't selling" and the circular reasoning goes on...

Hopefully this doesn't happen, but I could see it happening.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

circlew

It looks like 40K is going to be a reasonable estimate as per below.

The G8 and the Commodore will be built in the same Australian plant, with the facility running at full steam to a tune of 620 units per day. About half of that number will make its way outside of OZ, split between Chevrolet (Middle East), Vauxhall (UK), Daewoo (Korea), and Pontiac. That probably doesn't make room for more than 50,000 G8s a year here in the States, and in the unlikely event the sports sedan isn't a hit, GM can shift sales anywhere else in the world.

That speaks of limited demand so hard to get in yr1. Looks like GTO numbers to me.

Regards,
OW

captain2

at least the G8 will have the Hyundai Genesis as competition for your "I'm not paying $5k over MSRP" award. Personally I'd rather have the Hyundai, perhaps a sign of the times and bad news for GM, but I'm not spending anywhere close to MSRP for either of them.
Cars like this (the 300C comes to mind) come along from time to time amidst a flurry of 'return to our roots' hoopla and favorable 'enthusiast' reviews and then it turns out that they are the same POSs they always were - or are, at best, unremarkable - by any definition.

paisan

Ah the Genesis, now there is a vehicle I am starting to warm up to. As you said, the 300c was nice out of the box and I was hot in the pants for one but after driving one, was only impressed with the HP output, I drove a 2 year old one that had the usual American car stuff wrong with it (trim falling off, switches and buttons not aligned etc).

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

circlew

Exactly...drove an SRT-8 and nice grunt but decided on BMW.

Regards,
OW

mr215

"That speaks of limited demand so hard to get in yr1. Looks like GTO numbers to me. "

except for the fact they never imported 50k GTOs as someone stated recently. The GTO was only supposed to sell about 20k a year. Its not the same thing. I love how everyone is ignoring the GTO's lack of a base model and $33k starting price. Do you think that may have had a little to do with its sales?

mr215

First of all the 300 has been a success for Chrysler. Secondly, I'm not aware of any major quality problems with that vehicle so I dont get your assertion that its typical American crap. It seems like you and Paisan are big time import fans and have little interest in the G8 or any other domestic vehicle. I am not a 300 fan but its combination of price, performance, features and size is pretty unique. It has all the luxury features you would expect from a sub $40k luxury car and has more room than anything in its price range. What are you basing your dim assessment on? Pasan's claims about the car having "typical" problems of an American car are curious to me as well. Even CR recommends the 300 if my memory serves me correctly. I am starting to see why there is so little enthusiasm for the G8 here- few people here like anyting from Detroit.

paisan

I precluded my comment about the 300c as anectdotle, I never said that it was a representation of all 300c cars. I have high hopes for the G8 and may even buy one as I love RWD + Power, it's a matter of at what price point and what quality we get. If the materials are those similar to the ones in the 300c (hard plastic, etc) then I'd have a hard time plunking down ~$30k for a G8.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

tom17

When is the G8 supposed to hit the dealership floor? I read that Pontiac has delivered cars to the car magazines for testing. If it is a good as the hype I would pay sticker for the GT - but not over !!!

bigelm

I'm hoping to use the GM Supplier Discount... I'll find a dealer who will accept it if it's in the program. The G8 can sit on the lots if dealers are going to sell over MSRP. I don't care how good a car is, it'll never get MSRP from me. The dealer by me said they'll sell at MSRP while the other in same county is already doing a markup on a vehicle they don't even have yet. There are sharks everywhere...

circlew

I love how everyone is ignoring the GTO's lack of a base model and $33k starting price. Do you think that may have had a little to do with its sales?

A little...the rest was the $3K premium tacked on to the sticker price and the bland design. Bottom line, low sales.

I am not ignoring the base model and lower price points. It's the supply vs. demand that will be the factor and the allocations to dealers, wait time after order, etc.

50K is the estimate...let's see what comes in.

Regards,
OW

circlew

I heard March but I predict you won't see them in every dealer for a few months after that. Some will order without a test drive which is foolish.

Regards,
OW

rayainsw

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=124400

tom17

Wow !!! The Edmunds atricle claims that 50% of the cars enroute are the GT !!! If that is true there should not be a shortage of the GT. Hopefully no add on stickers either.

rayainsw

A agree that whether or not some Dealers try to sell G8s for $$s above MSRP may be a factor. And that initial supply may not meet initial demand. And allocation to Dealers. And even wait time for \ after an order.

Yet the Corvette C6 has endured all of these. And still sells in decent numbers – for such a specialized ( and relatively expensive ) car.

Will some dealers try to sell G8s for over MSRP: Almost certainly the answer will be ‘yes’. At least initially. Given the current state of franchise law in the US, there is almost nothing GM \ Pontiac can do about that.

Some buyers ( still ) order without a test drive. Foolish though that may be.

There is currently a “waiting list” at most BMW dealers for a new M3.

Although we will not know for some time if we are already ( by the ‘official’ definition ) in a Recession, there are clear signs that our economy has some trouble. And sales of cars like the Corvette, that are discretionary purchases, are impacted earlier rather than later.

Will demand for a G8 GT be impacted? We just do not know.

We could speculate endlessly here – but I am just waiting to see how it plays out.

- Ray
Interested, but not obsessing . . .

mr215

I'm sure the plastics will be better but if they are not I think you have to look at the whole package. If plastics are your primary concern perhaps you should get a passat or IS250 for the same price as a G8. You say $30K as if that is a high price for a car of this caliber. When the Lucerne CXS costs about $36k and the 300C costs about $37k and the 335 costs about $36k I would say $30k for a full size G8 that outpowers all of them isnt too bad, even if the plastics arent of A8 quality.

captain2

the 300C/G8 are anything BUT 'domestic' vehicles so it is difficult for me NOT to like them! If you want to send your money to Canada/Mexico/Germany buy a Chrysler. The 300 V8, at least according to CR, had some teething issues with the rear suspension and tranny, but has improved of later (CR 08 Auto issue) as you note to a 'recommended' status. The one thing that remains, of course, is that horrendously cheap interior - I can't imagine anyone construing the 300 as a 'luxury' anything. At least the Genesis seems to meet that 'luxury' definition that should go with that $40k pricetag and also meets that 'demand' for that 350hp RWD big sedan. Obviously, from what I've seen in pre-release publicity it sure appears to me that that 'little' Korean mfgr. has 'one-upped' both Chrysler and GM.

mr215

I'm sure the plastics will be better but if they are not I think you have to look at the whole package. If plastics are your primary concern perhaps you should get a passat or IS250 for the same price as a G8. You say $30K as if that is a high price for a car of this caliber. When the Lucerne CXS costs about $36k and the 300C costs about $37k and the 335 costs about $36k I would say $30k for a full size G8 that outpowers all of them isnt too bad, even if the plastics arent of A8 quality.

mr215

1. The Genesis is 4 years newer than the 300 and should be better
2. We all know GM nor Chrysler nor Toyota can exceed Hyundai in bang for the buck. If you think the Genesis whips the 300/G8 in value you should compare it to the GS350 or M35 since they are far more expensive.
3. Until we know final pricing on the Genesis we need to hold off on saying how its totally superior to the G8. The starting price is likely to be $29,995 but with options I suspect it will hit $40k or more. The G8 tops out at about $34k which isnt bad at all.
4. Chrysler upgraded the interior of the 300 for 2008 and it seems to be a little more luxurious. I agree the base model 300 is pretty spartan but the loaded interior with nav and tortoise shell trim isnt all that bad.

white6

Exactly...drove an SRT-8 and nice grunt but decided on BMW.

I would love to drive a BMW that was the size and had the power of a G8, but it would cost far more than I could afford. I guess that's the point; The G8 appears to have more than adequate quality, plus the size and performance I desire at a price I can easily afford.

paisan

The G8 appears to have more than adequate quality, plus the size and performance I desire at a price I can easily afford.

This is what we are all hoping for, myself included. I could definitely see one of these in my driveway IF and this is a BIG IF, the quality is up there.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

mr215

so you plan to base your decision solely on how hard the interior plastics are? to each his own, but that seems like an arbitrary matter to use as the main factor in your decision. Other than plastics I cant imagine what you are talking about when you say "if the quality is there" because GM's build quality is as good as anyone else's. Also, the GTO had a great interior so I would think that bodes well for the G8. BTW, what full size V8 cars in this price range do you consider to have acceptable quality? I'm not sure what standards you are using for the G8. Are you using $30k cars or the 5 series? I've been in the 2007 G35 and I can tell you I found nothing earth shattering about the interior materials. They were OK but not as good as what you find on VW products. If the G8 is even close to that than it should be OK in the eyes of buyers.

captain2

If you think the Genesis whips the 300/G8 in value you should compare it to the GS350 or M35 since they are far more expensive.

the Lexus/Infinit/BMW etc etc. buyer is not going to be caught dead in anything that says 'Hyundai' or 'Pontiac' on it regardless of how good they may or may not be. Therefore the Genesis is not competing with those high end cars, but down (several) notches and squarely in the G8s ballpark. If Hyundai tries to market the Genesis as some sort of 'poor man's' Bimmer it will fall on deaf ears, forcing those traditional Korean car discounts (and resale values) so that even if it does sticker at $40k for the V8 model it will still drive out in G8 (and 300) territory. If the G8 V8 tops out at $34k as you suggest - and sells for that - so will the Genesis.
And sure the Toyotas/Nissans/Hondas of the world have no desire to compete on a 'lowest common denominator' basis like this, they don't need to - something about knowing about how to make a profit selling cars

smithed

"hard plastic?"

I always see the concept of "hard plastic" being used to diminish the perception of a certain car.

Maybe I've not been in enough luxury vehicles, but have a few questions about things I read.

Do some car manufacturers use soft plastic? If so, what is the advantage?

Or are the surfaces covered in other materials, such as metal, cloth, leather, etc..

Is wood necessary for a car to be a luxury model?

Thanks for the information.

bigelm

I don't understand the apples to oranges comparison of the G8 and the Genisis, other than the price, which obviously will be alitte more than the G8. I read somewhere that Hyundai will have a fully loaded Gensis at ~40k. Take it for what it's worth... Hyundai is targeting the likes of Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, VW and even BMW. If I didn't want a stick and performance oriented vehicle, I would've shown up to my Hyundai dealer.

From the G8 pics I've seen online and video on youtube, seems to me that the 'plastics' as you guys refer it to, is pretty good considering the garbage from Big 3. If the plastics are that of the CTS, then it will be good. I don't know much about Australian market but I would think since they have a much competitive market with vehicles we don't get; there has to be a reason it's won so many awards, including Car of the Year (overseas) - and that's not solely based on the performance bang for the buck.

bruce_lee

What????
Paisan a 'Host'? When did this happen?

Man, I've been gone that long? I guess I better visit more often to 'witness' Dr.Frill become a Host too. Not that this is a bad thing..

Any ways, I am more in line for a new Camaro...

BL.

paisan

Welcome back Bruce Lee!

Well several factors beside the interior and build quality (the driveline will already be suiteable, that's a given and the strong suit of the G8) and several of these factors stopped me from getting the GTO:

o Aftermarket availability of things such as Bilstien Shocks, Koni Sport Shocks, Big Brake kits, Springs, etc etc.

o Ability to put on a wider rear tire, GTO had this issue that you couldn't put on a tire much wider than stock w/o mauling the fenders.

o Handling ability, braking ability, coupled with ride quality.

o Final pricing of the G8 GT 6MT.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

captain2

if there is something that ISN'T 'apples to oranges' it would be a comparison between the Genesis-G8. Besides both being more traditional RWD, they are the same size, same price category, have similar base and optional engines, should also have similar performance capabilities, and lastly the same guy that would consider the Pontiac is also likely NOT to mind having a Hyundai in his driveway. What could be more 'comparable' than that ?

Just because Hyundai would like to think that the Genesis is some sort of competitor to some cars that are $20k+ more, doesn't make it so. The Korean marketing depts. will learn this soon enough as Hyundai's 'overambitions' are exposed.. As I said earlier, somebody that might spend $60 or $70k on a 550/M45/GS is going to have no interest in the Genesis (or a G8/300). The Genesis/G8/300 also have something else in common - none of them are (or will be) cars to be 'lusted' after - in the same way that the others might be.