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You didn't answer my question, what car do you feel represents Americas best efforts? You just can't wait for the articles to be written so they can find fault with things such as idle quality, intake resonance at high rpm, issues that most people don't even pay attention to. I for one like my engine to growl and have character. If you want lexus smoothness, then go buy one. People aspire to buy MBs because of what exactly? It can't be quality, craftmanship, idle smoothness or engine NVH. I drove my uncle's E class this past September and was not impressed with the interior, handling or anything else for as much $$ as it cost. Let's live in the real world and get rid of these pointless criteria for the definition great car. Auto writers live in fantasy land and a lot of readers get caught up in that mess. Most drivers won't be doing hot laps on the 'Ring or cruising along at 120 mph going to grandma's house. For you, nothing GM makes will ever be superior to anything from Europe so why not let us who have resonable expectations enjoy a great vehicle.
I really have to aske what world you are living in. You act like the sigma chassis is unproven and the CTS is some new Chinese car that came out of the blue. The CTS has been proven as a sports sedan, especially in CTS-V form. This has nothing to do with numbers, this is fact. Any review of the CTS or CTS-V will back that up. I do not understand how you can sincerely state that you have questions about this cars ability as a luxury sports sedan because it hasnt been driven. Do you say the same thing about the 3 series when a new model debuts? I think not.
"Way too early for all this cheerleading. Honestly all this boasting so early is what keeps a lot of folks here from liking anything GM. Let the car do the talking in the press and market a little. "
Not buying or liking a car because you dislike the fact that others like the car is one of the most perplexing sentiments I've heard in a while. I dont think most people who refuse to consider a GM product do so because they hate "GM cheerleaders". No one here is boating about anything, the fact of the matter is that the car is more than competitive and it likely the best American sedan ever made. Its a true no excuses car from Cadillac and that is what people here want to see. It's not "too early" to say that this car is a strong entry into this segment and I fail to understand what else you need to read or see to admit that. I also like how you keep saying "on paper" as if GM is making up stuff for the press release. The car doesn't have 300hp "on paper", it has 300hp, period. No this car may not be the benchmark, but its definitely in the running. BTW, in case you didnt notice this opinion is shared by more than the "GM Cheerleaders" you so despise here on edmunds. Karl Brauer and autoweek shared similar sentiments about how good this car looks. Of course, I'm sure they are just annoying GM cheerleaders though so their opinions will be disregarded. In fact, it appears the only one who can validate the CTS is you and I dont see that happening anytime soon.
I find Chavis, rocky and others to be fair minded posters here. You cant be considered a cheerleader if you criticize the company you are supposed to blindly support. I readily acknowledge that the standard STS is lacking, the XLR-V is overpriced and the northstar needs to make far more than 320hp to compete with other luxury V8s. That said, the STS-V, Esclade, SRX, DTS (aside from transmission) and '08 CTS are impressive. Interestingly enough some people believe the V series Cadillacs arent to be taken seriously but if you look at C&D's recent comparison of super powered V8 German sedans you will see that the STS-V test numbers (from previous C&D comparo) would have been right in the thick of things and it would've been the cheapest of the 4 cars.
I continue to be baffled by people who spend time trolling in threads about cars they find unimpressive. You wont find me in the Accord or Lexus IS forums because I have no interest in those cars, competent as they may be. I'm not going to visit forums to tell the fans of a particular car that they are silly for liking a car I do not like. Pointless.
Now, on to my pet "project"... the coupe.
- Does anyone know whether it's a definite go?
- Will it be the same size and dimensions as the new CTS? (I don't like small coupes ie: G35, BMW3)
- Will it come with all the same options and offerings ie:
AWD
The answers to these questions are important to me because I would much rather have a CTS coupe than a sedan. However, if there isn't going to be a coupe or it is significantly different the the 08 sedan, I'll opt for the sedan.
Evoc, are you there?
If you read some of the latest reviews/articles - American cars are better than the European cars but just lag behind the Japanese. If the CTS turns out to be the great American auto, I think the American public will look at the American brands and hopefully the American auto makers will step up and produce the cars that the public wants with the quality. Also the price of the CTS needs to be very competitive to really make this take off.
Chavis you contradict yourself here. If a car in the 30-40K class has a nasty dash it has a problem and that was the outgoing CTS' problem - the interior.
You didn't answer my question, what car do you feel represents Americas best efforts? You just can't wait for the articles to be written so they can find fault with things such as idle quality, intake resonance at high rpm, issues that most people don't even pay attention to.
I gotta say you've reached a new level here. I didn't say anything but wait to see what the drive is like and already you're accusing me of saying something bad about the car or waiting for something bad to be said. This is really ridiculous Chavis, I haven't said anything negative, but still this is what you have to say?
For you, nothing GM makes will ever be superior to anything from Europe so why not let us who have resonable expectations enjoy a great vehicle.
Same old, same old. GM cars are the best things going and just by reading a press release you're already able to see this. You drove a Mercedes and wasn't impressed. Like gosh, someone call the New York Times! Stop the presses, what a shocker, yet I'm the one that will never be impressed by the competition. Pot, meet Kettle, Kettle meet pot.
The really absurd part is that you asked me what I thought of the car and I gave a bunch of positive first impressions and yet your reply reads like the typical GM supporter's knee-jerk reaction to anything said about a GM product. You're responding to, putting up an offense for something that wasn't even said!
M
PS, the G35 might not have a usuable back seat, but it shares the same 112.2" wheelbase as the sedan so it definitely isn't "small."
I really have to aske what world you are living in. You act like the sigma chassis is unproven and the CTS is some new Chinese car that came out of the blue. The CTS has been proven as a sports sedan, especially in CTS-V form. This has nothing to do with numbers, this is fact. Any review of the CTS or CTS-V will back that up. I do not understand how you can sincerely state that you have questions about this cars ability as a luxury sports sedan because it hasnt been driven. Do you say the same thing about the 3 series when a new model debuts? I think not.
Here we are talking about the new CTS and yet you've gone off the deep end (as usual) about the old car and the defense of it. I didn't say anything negative about the car in my reply to Chavis yet you've managed to spin it that way. I guess I shouldn't expect anything different. I don't think you can help it really.
I SAID THAT MAKING A CLAIM ABOUT THE CTS BEING THE BEST CAR TO EVER COME OUT OF AMERICA IS A PREMATURE CLAIM. Nothing more. What is so hard to grasp about that? The previous car certainly wasn't.
The rest of your post #153 is the longest, most numbing, excuse making, accusing pile of nothing I've seen from you in quite a while.
It is so hilarious to read that no one is boasting about anything concerning the CTS, yet in the same post you make the claim that it is the best American sedan ever. Like that really means something. How about being best in class for just once. Best American sedan could be a more hollow meaningless boast. Beside the 300C and STS-V no other American sedan has meant squat in the last few years.
I also like how you keep saying "on paper" as if GM is making up stuff for the press release. The car doesn't have 300hp "on paper", it has 300hp, period.
Seriously, where did I doubt their hp claim? I said that 300hp was class competitive and that 258hp is more than competitor's lower level models. Seriously did you even read what I wrote? I gave the CTS complements and yet you come back with this BS. Funny how Karl was clueless one moment and now he's an expert. The list goes on and on and it never, ever changes. Same old tired defense, but this time it was pointless because nobody ragged on the new CTS, at least I didn't. If you can't even accept a compliment on the car then this is hopeless.
M
Only one problem with that statement: we arent talking about the previous car. Aside from the chassis the new car is just that, NEW. Seems pretty simple to me.
As Chavis stated, this is likely the best american sedan ever produced. He asked you name a superior domestic car and yet you have not. Note, no one said this is the best car ever or even the best in class. What was said is that this is the best domestic sedan ever. You read the CTS press releases, look at the pics and then explain why this assertion is incorrect. The only sedans that could possibly be considered better are the 300C or STS-V. One has been surpassed in interior design and the other is far too expensive and exclusive to compare to the CTS. I'll say this: it's the best American sedan ever for under $75k. How about that?
"Beside the 300C and STS-V no other American sedan has meant squat in the last few years."
Yes you are correct (as usual) because the Charger, CTS-V, Fusion, Aura, STS, Lucerne, etc counted for nothing. Again, can you attempt to limit your contempt to the vehicle at hand? We know you despise anything that isnt German, but honestly this topic is about the CTS only. I will accept your argument that all American sedans save the STS-V/300C are garbage. Lets move on.
Its not about you bashing the car. Anyone with eyes and common sense knows they cant come here and say this car is subpar and be taken seriously. The point is you are upset that people here have stated this car appears to be a serious contender that can EASILY take on the class leading G35 and 335i. That is all that we are saying and I stick by that. You refuse to believe that and start rambling about "it looks good on paper, but.........." or "I need to see what C&D says before making a final judgement" or "this car is OK but lets not forget the old car is crap", etc.
As for Karl, let me try to explain this as concisely as possible. I dont believe Karl is an expert just because he liked the CTS (and most new offerings) and that wasnt my point. My point was Karl has been a harsh critic of GM (much like you although I dont think he is on an anti-GM vendetta like some people) and thus it MEANS something when he outright praises a GM vehicle and admits that he sees signs they are turning around. That, my friend, was why I pointed out Karl's comments and it doesnt mean I will agree with everything he says from this point forward. As a matter of fact, the fact that you are struggling to come up with complaints about the CTS tells me this car is on the mark and I think that will warm the hearts of GM execs. Its ironic that you would make such a statement because you were a big Karl fan (and C&D fan) when he is bashing GM and now it seems you are distancing yourself from his pro-CTS stance. I think its pretty apparent that compliments are more impressive when a skeptic makes them. Even Karl is getting with the program in regards to GM's current offerings like the CTS. Living in the past and criticizing soon to be retired models like the '07 CTS is getting a little old to be honest. You used the same type of argument before when discounting the new interior of the SRX, your point was it doesn't matter that the new interior is nice becuase the old one was lacking and thats what really counted. Hey, if that makes sense to you roll with it.
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thebug...
We shall wait and see what the first drives reveal. However, since I am not a weekend autocrosser, they won't mean all that much to me. I can already predict the reviews, "close but not as sharp as a 335i. Cadillac has come closer but still missed the mark." I for one don't want a 3 series so I don't want a car that pretends to be a 3 series. Sure, I enjoy spirited driving, but I want luxury features and room as well. iDrive alone will keep me out of any BMW as well as those somber dark interiors.
The CTS to me seems like a better version of the Lexus IS which I feel has the best interior in the segment. That car is simply too small and too over styled for my taste so it seems Cadillac has all the right stuff. Next for me would be a G35 and possibly the TL. Again, Benz C class is old as dirt with a last gen dashboard, A4 has no room in the back seat and all BMWs save the 7 series do nothing for me. I positively hate the term "class leading" because that means nothing to a regular buyer. Writers value handling over everything else so that's why they'll never jump from BMWs bandwagon. Nothing else about the 3 series is "class leading" except its handling, nothing. Well, maybe standard vinyl seats for $40k but, hey...
It's interesting how the CTS has to prove itself when other makes who survive more off of reputation than delivering the goods are exempt (MBs embarrasing recent quality). I've heard about the quality/satisfaction awards the old CTS earned so, what is really important to buyers? Perhaps that nasty "looking" dash didn't turn off that many buyers after all. Doesn't sound like that much of a "problem" if you like it. I personally didn't but the sales numbers proved who did.
Assuming the CTS interior is what we think, the only factor that could slow it down would be pricing. If they price it like the G and not like the 3 series they will be in business.
Here is the website for it.
There is a video there with running footage of the car if you wish to see it:
http://www.cadillac.com/allnewCTS/
-----------------------------------------------------
Now on to the photos.
There are not that many photos of the rear end out there:
I cannot remember whether or not I posted pictures of the interior or seats.
There are few rear-seat pictures to be found, however (none that I know of.
I will try to see what there is to post.
That's just about the best I can find out there right now. Enjoy!
We will see.
Hopefully it will have as much hard plastic as other members in its class. I suspect it will be right up there with everyone else.
(Despite appearances, the current car has just as many good quality interior bits as its competitors. It's just very poorly executed.)
They'll sell a bunch of them because it's the only american option out there.
The new CTS has one thing in common with the Escalade. They are both the "King of Bling".
Chavis 10,
I wouldn't buy a BMW because of the iDrive either. I think that joy stick makes their cars worthless. It's a shame that such a great car can have such a rotten interface.
I can't wait to go to the Auto show next Thursday.
You were talking about the previous car's chassis and what not and what it had done to imply that the new car is already proven in that area. Or that it should be superior. Seems pretty simplistic to me.
As Chavis stated, this is likely the best american sedan ever produced. He asked you name a superior domestic car and yet you have not.
Did you actually read my reply to his question? I said that we don't know enough about this car yet to know wether or not it is so great and grand as you and others are so ready to say it is. You don't know enough about it either to proclaim it to be the best American car ever either. Ultimately I couldn't care less if it is the best American sedan ever. To proclaim a new American car to be the best American car or sedan ever is the most meaningless and irrelevant boast anyone could come up with. You're prepared to boast about something being the best relative to the American car industry that has turned out (on average) nothing but lack luster products for years and years with only a few good cars sprinkled in over that timeframe. This is just the type of trivial nonsense that keeps the American car industry behind. Who cares if it is the best American car or sedan ever? American cars don't set the tone or benchmark in any of their classes so this about being the best American car is the most hollow boast possible. Its like bragging about which wreck in the junkyard has the least amount of rust. American sedans don't set the tone for any market segment nor are their a bunch of great American sedans around either. They are few and far between. You come up with a list of 5 or 6 and proclaim that the CTS is head and shoulders over them. Some Buicks, Fords and Saturns. Wow what an accomplishment for the CTS! Again, I couldn't care less about it being the best American sedan. Such a distinction couldn't be more matterless.
The point is you are upset that people here have stated this car appears to be a serious contender that can EASILY take on the class leading G35 and 335i. That is all that we are saying and I stick by that.
Where did you get that from? Lots of accusations about things that were never said all the while offering up a defense for those very same imaginary comments.
Bottom line is that you're so stuck on wanting to give the new CTS some type of title like "best American sedan ever" to the point that you can't help but spin any and everything said about the car around to make it look negative. Anyone can read my previous posts and see that I said nothing negative about the car, only that on paper it looks to be class competitive. I said that I like the look and the interior appears to be eons better than before. You're going on and on about the SRX, Karl, me "struggling to come up with complaints" and nothing could be more untrue. You're reaching and reaching for something that was never there.
Its ironic that you would make such a statement because you were a big Karl fan (and C&D fan) when he is bashing GM and now it seems you are distancing yourself from his pro-CTS stance.
Nope, you're confused. I didn't even know who this "Karl" person was until recently and I didn't even participate in his threads here. I find it "ironic" that you'll listen to anyone that praises a GM car after they've trashed them in the past. They were clueless then, but now they've seen the light. Beyond tired and its highly hypocrital too. You can explain it as fancily as you like, but that is exactly what it is.
Living in the past and criticizing soon to be retired models like the '07 CTS is getting a little old to be honest.
I agree, we need to sweep all the previous lack-luster efforts under the rug and pretend that no one bought them. This is classic "wait till next year" excuse making. Yet the "old" CTS was such a good car according to you during its run.
M
I am very much looking forward to sit in this car and test drive it when it arrives at dealers later this year. Also, the upcoming comparos featuring this new CTS should be very interesting as well.
It's definitely something you either love or hate.
This topic is about the '08 CTS and most people seemed to be impressed based on what we see. Do you feel as though you are some sort of authority where GM needs to let you personally torture the CTS to prove that is worthy of your recommendation? You didn't address the fact the previous CTS was a success despite the fact that you said the interior was a "problem." Buyers are open minded which is a good thing. Everyone slammed the 745i because of iDrive and styling but buyers scooped them up. No biggie, different strokes for different strokes so because you see something as a "lackluster" doesn't mean we have to share your opinion. Some people like plain vanilla (Toyota, MB) and some like a little more passion.
Acura's joystick in the RL seemed a little distracting as well. Overall, I like touchscreens the best. Acura TSX has a really nice one with a large screen to boot. Call me oldschool (even though I'm young
Whoever has one of these in mint condition after twenty years will have a serious collector's item. Many critics put this car down, called it ugly and on and on. When it hit the market, it took off like wild fire. And if you haven't noticed, other manufactures have begun to emulate.
On another note, I lived in Germany for a while. There, BMW's & MB's are like Chevys and Fords are here. Perhaps 7 out of 10 cars on the road. I'm not sure which manufacture over there is considered the top dog, but I don't think it's BMW or MB.
They are also 10-14K less if you buy it over there. The trip across the ocean makes the price go up tremendusly becuase there's a market for them (poor Joe's). In my view, it's not worth all the hype.
thebug...
M
the current version already is pretty good, although i don't particularly like the styling.
You've got to be kidding me! :surprise:
The CTS is not "overstyled", whatever that means? That's like the pot calling a pot a pot!
What you can, legitimately, say is the CTS may be a better sports sedan than the IS350, since it offers the manual tranny.
DrFill
Here is something to pacify.
By the way, see all the videos at http://www.cadillac.com/allnewCTS/
Make sure you click on "video"
Here is the massive sunroof:
M
Edmunds: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=119071
Motor Trend:
http://www.motortrend.com/av/autoshow/detroit/112_0701_2007_detroit_2008_cadilla- c_cts_unveiling
(3 minute tour)
Cadillac:
http://www.cadillac.com/allnewCTS/
In all, that should be 5 videos--three at Cadillac's website, and one each from Edmunds and Motortrend
Enjoy!
This is from the spec sheet on mediagm.com
If this is the case I will not buy this car. The 335i or 528i (08 model)will be mine.
From Car and Driver.
Click on "video".
Has anyone sat in this car? Is the headliner crap mousehair like the G35, or is it psuedo suede like the IS350 and TL?
How about its hp and torque?
M
"CTS is the best American sedan is meaningless because the American field of sedans isn't anything impressive to begin with"
There are plenty of solid competitive big 3 products out there that don't emulate Toyotas and BMWs that people are happy to own and drive. Aura, G6, Impala, Lucerne, new crossovers, 500, Freestyle, Mustang, 300/Charger, etc etc etc. Sure, they don't impress you but I doubt the Big 3s first concern is too impress a person who thinks he's driving on the Autobahn while stuck in interstate traffic. This is america, not Bavaria.
Yes of course, I love cars in general so singling out American cars wouldn't be true to that at all.
Besides this new CTS (which still has to be certified under your watch) could you even name an American car you consider owning?
Certified under my watch? Funny Chavis. Seriously though I dig the Corvette, and all the SRT-8 versions of the Chrysler LX cars, especially the 300C SRT-8. I also like the STS-V and the Aura looks pretty good to me also. All the CTS has to do is drive right because as you know (or I thought you did) I like styling first and foremost. If a car looks the part then we can discuss all the other aspects. I won't ever buy or drive an ugly or dull car no matter what it does and who makes it. This is why Toyota and Hondas are out. They're Maytags in most aspects. For some reason I like this new Lincoln crossover, the MKX. The Mustang is hot also.
Sure, they don't impress you but I doubt the Big 3s first concern is too impress a person who thinks he's driving on the Autobahn while stuck in interstate traffic. This is america, not Bavaria.
You were doing oh-so well until this statement. Before I could answer your question you automatically assumed what does and does not impress me. I was expecting a "buy American" call behind that tired flag waving sentiment.
That said I wouldn't want a Ford 500 or any Buick or Pontiac (outside of the GTO), because they just don't appeal to me. I'm sure Buicks and Ford 500s are nice cars for their intended segments, but they're yawn inducers as far as I'm concerned.
M
Whoa, I almost fell out of my chair on that one. Of course people that may not be familiar with your viewpoints may believe you but I know the real deal although I am impresed that you came up with a list of 4 or five American cars that you think are competent. I think part of your problem with the CTS is that you are concerned that you might be hardpressed to say its not at or near the top of the class and not be laughed at in these forums. Of course, it is your right to dislike this car or come up with all type of caveats about why its inferior to your beloved German saloons but I dont think you would find much support. In a world when Karl is praising GM products, even you have to realize things are changing and Cadillac and GM as a whole.
You continue to say "let's see how it drives" and I don't understand where you are coming from. Have you or have you not read anything or driven the current STS or CTS? I believe that you are an auto enthusiast and thus I cannot fathom why you continue to act like the sigma chassis hasn't been thoroughly tested and proven by the automotive press. How do you think the car will drive? Like a Toyota, Hyundai or Buick? These days even Buicks aren't as soft as the Buicks of old, much less modern RWD Cadillacs. I just don't know what the "drive" is going to prove to you that you don't aleady know. The current CTS, as far as I can tell, was generally seen as a better handling car that your average MB, Lexus or Audi but not as good as BMW models unless we are talking about the V series.
If the '08 CTS just happens to be praised for stellar handling and steering (as unlikely as that may be) would you be prepared to acknowledge that the much despised GM has created a incredibly strong entry into the near-luxury class?
Since you are into styling I can understand why you don't like Japanese cars and I share your opinion. What I don't understand is how you can be so anti-GM if styling is one of your primarary criteria for liking certain vehicles. Personally I feel GM's styling capabilities are far beyond the Asian automakers. With vehicles like the XLR, C6, Aura, Solstice, SRX, '08 Malibu, Acadia, Yukon Denali, etc. I just don't see how you cant find anything in GM's stable that meets your approval. MB may be known for many things, but cutting edge styling isn't one of them. All they do ('07 S550 excluded) is warm over the same staid designs with each new generation of vehicle. They arent ugly, but they aren't compelling either.
Respectfully 1487, do you honestly think I would care about that? If the press deems the car to be amoung the best in the class I'd have no problem with it. I think you need to give Karl a rest. I didn't even know who the man was until you brought him up. I wasn't one of the GM bashers in his thread.
You continue to say "let's see how it drives" and I don't understand where you are coming from. Have you or have you not read anything or driven the current STS or CTS? I believe that you are an auto enthusiast and thus I cannot fathom why you continue to act like the sigma chassis hasn't been thoroughly tested and proven by the automotive press.
Its quite simple, the compeition is brand new. The G35, IS350 (yeah I know, but it is there) and the 335i have moved the bar. I'm waiting to see how the new CTS compares with them, thats all I'm saying here. I'm not looking for it to flop or fail, I'm honestly curious to see how it stacks up against the class leading trio.
If the '08 CTS just happens to be praised for stellar handling and steering (as unlikely as that may be) would you be prepared to acknowledge that the much despised GM has created a incredibly strong entry into the near-luxury class?
Definitely. Why would I not? I don't like Lexus either, but the IS350 is a few suspension tweaks and a gearbox away from stardom too.
Since you are into styling I can understand why you don't like Japanese cars and I share your opinion.
Common ground, whoo hooo! Though I must remind you here that it isn't "all" Japanese cars that I don't like just like it isn't "all" American cars. I'm speaking as far as "most" of them, because there are exceptions.
With vehicles like the XLR, C6, Aura, Solstice, SRX, '08 Malibu, Acadia, Yukon Denali, etc. I just don't see how you cant find anything in GM's stable that meets your approval.
Uh...I believe I named some GM cars. Secondly a lot of the vehicles you mention just don't appeal to me, styling is first, but not the only criteria. Styling gets the attention but it doesn't compensate for everything. Generally can't stand SUVs either. Oh and the Saturn Sky Red Line is a favorite of mine too. GM is now making the running changes the car should have had in the first place. Now when they fix that awful fitting top they'll be doing something.
Also it isn't written anywhere that one must like a large selection of GM cars, ditto for the German and Japanese brands. People do have preferences for whatever reason.
MB may be known for many things, but cutting edge styling isn't one of them. All they do ('07 S550 excluded) is warm over the same staid designs with each new generation of vehicle. They arent ugly, but they aren't compelling either.
You've got to be kidding. This from a someone who like Buicks? Buick hasn't designed anything compelling car in 50 years. A Mercedes SL, CL or CLS isn't compelling designwise, but a Buick Lucerne is? A Malibu is? Surely you're joking. No one said MB was known for "cutting edge" styling 1487. They're known for handsome, conservative styling that it timelessly good looking. Cutting edge would be what Cadillac and BMW are trying to do.
The only GM divisions that are showing anything in the way of "design" is Cadillac and now Saturn. Until the SKY and Aura Saturn made some of the worst looking cars on the market. Cutting edge design is a Lucerne or SRX? Cadillac I'll give you has a unique look that isn't to everyone's taste, but a new styling direction will do that. With the new CTS though they've refined it to the point of it being good looking, IMO.
M
First of all the sales prove the CTS was a good car. I know in your mind your personal opinion is more important than market success, but I beg to differ. It doesn't matter what "I" say about the current CTS, what matters is that it sold well in its 5 years. To me, 275k satisfied customers means just a LITTLE bit more than your less than objective opinion about the current CTS. I am not making any excuses for the current model, it is competitive but it has some well discussed flaws in terms of interior design and exterior design (rear end). The fact that the new car is much better doesn't mean I want to "forget" about the current car. The CTS was a evry important turning point for Cadillac and in spite of what the critics said about the new styling it has proven to be popular with the public.
"They were clueless then, but now they've seen the light. "
Here's a thought. People like Karl had certain criticisms about GM products and now he sees that his criticisms are being addressed. One of the complaints critics have it that they have heard promises before from GM but the company doesn't follow through and produces more of the same. What Karl and some others seem to be saying now is that the changes are showing up in the new products and they are impressed. You, on the other hand, chose to focus on old GM products and would have us believe that nothing has changed and its business as usual at the General.
"Who cares if it is the best American car or sedan ever? American cars don't set the tone or benchmark in any of their classes so this about being the best American car is the most hollow boast possible. Its like bragging about which wreck in the junkyard has the least amount of rust. American sedans don't set the tone for any market segment nor are their a bunch of great American sedans around either. They are few and far between. You come up with a list of 5 or 6 and proclaim that the CTS is head and shoulders over them. Some Buicks, Fords and Saturns. Wow what an accomplishment for the CTS! Again, I couldn't care less about it being the best American sedan. Such a distinction couldn't be more matterless. "
This from a guy who likes American cars supposedly. My point about the CTS was that this appears to be the most complete and competitive American sedan introduced in recent history. I wasnt arguing that American cars are setting class standards, I was saying that this is a no excuses car from Detroit that can stand 100% on its own merits. People like you believe that anyone dumb enough to buy American is doing so because of some type sense of patriotic duty or to support american jobs. If one was to buy this car I dont think anyone could make the argument that it was purchased for any reason other than the fact that is completely appealing in its own right regardless of where it's built.
As for few and far between decent American cars, I would say that is less than accurate. The Solstice/Sky, C6/Z06, Viper, DTS, Fusion, Grand prix GXP, Aura, XLR, G6 GTP, STS, CTS-V, 300C, MKZ, Charger, Cobalt SS, Impala and Lucerne come to mind. Soon I would add the '08 Malibu, CTS and possible Avenger to that list. You are right, there arent more than a handful. MB makes great cars for those who can afford to drop $40k+ for a decently equipped vehicle but fortunately there are plenty of competent domestic cars available for the less fortunate amongst us.